Soran Ibrahim/Setsuna + 00 Gundam Vs Kira Yamato + Strike Freedom

Time limit is something Ive never denied,Its that that evidence shown so far hints towards 00-Raisers performance not dropping to the levels alot lower than pre-Trans Am.


Thruster is still a thruster no matter how you look at it.Thrust is when a system expels or accelarates mass in one direction to put the object in opposing direction into motion(SF).In order to thrust,SF's thrusters will have to exert mass in direction opposite to where the unit wants to go.Something needs to be used as that sacrificial mass,be it conventional fuel or whatever,some matter with mass needs to be exerted and the supply of that matter will be finite.Unless you suggest that SF uses its Deutron Energy for that.Unfortunately,that leads to 2 serious problems:
1)Why would SFs thrust have no visual differences to any other thrust?
2)If Deutron is used as a mass for expelling,it would bring a whole new problem for the powerplant.Along with feeding the beam weapons,feeding Variable Phase Shift,Beam Shields,WoL(ok that to a lesser extent due to it being used only when DRAGOONs are deployed.),DRAGOONs,SF itself with all systems,making Thrusters operate Deutron is used as Thrust itself?Considering that SF flies all the time,the threat of the powerplant not keeping up with demand would be so horribly grim,that you would see SF going down like a powering ou very often.
Thus,no.Deutron is not used as a mass for expelling.And unless SF magicly and endlessly produces something that Im not aware of.It need resupplying for Thrusters.


Im talking about the very last manuever,when bott suits seperated from one another to dodge the incoming CB fire.00-Raiser didnt seem any slower when it did that manuever than it was pre-Trans Am and no,it wasnt red.

..
If Ali called them back for ressupplying,than it would also seem that they werent doing well against 00-Raiser and only wasting energy.Wide Beam willl still get Dragoons no matter the distance inbetween,beam is just too wide.00-Raiser also has different modes of fire includin rapifire that will be quite deadly for them


1)Ultimate Coordinator is nothing more than a coordinator born in an artificial womb with none of the genetic mods gone wrong.

2)Pseudo-Newtype abilities are not widespread among Coordinators,infact most Newtypes in Ce are Naturals.The most powerful of them NT-powers wise is...Prayers Reverie,a Natural.
3)Kiras Newtypeness is also quite debatible since Fukuda mentoned all of Kiras NT flashes being nothing but a homage to older shows.
4)In his interviews,Fukuda also said that SEED mode is a represantation of someone surpassing his limits.A combo of Al and Hal was working beyound anything before seen(dont bring me nonsense about SEED being better than QBT) and yet Supersoldiers are nothing but Level C QBT users by standards of Innovators.
5)Innovators have displayed a wider range of Newtype connections than any CE Newtype.Ribbons can control other Innovators and oversee the battles while sitting on his comfy Sofa.Tell me any feat any CE Newtype did that would be more impressive.Even Prayer doesnt compare.


Except he put a saber directly through its chest.


I just compared Yazan to Ali AS characters.Yazan obviously shares many resemblances to Ali.Ali was obviously inspired by him like countless masked dudes are inspired by Char and if you want to argue pilots:
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-6863/Best-Gundam-Pilot-and-Mobile-Suit-Gundam.html


I brought the definition of the term,try thinking while enhanced perception of everyrthing around you would be needed to control several objects at once.So when sources claim that enhanced spatial awareness is needed to control DRAGOONs,some people misinterpret it.


Except Aimbot automatically takes aim for those spots.


1)You mean when he freed himself from GOUF heatrods using DRAGOONs?Its quite logical actually,for DRAGOONs were the obvious weapons that could help him out of the mess,infact it was done by Amuro before and in no way is it considered as one of Amuros creative tactics,for Remote is a bloody obvious answer.Infact,it isnt anymore more creative than what Ali did with Fangs in S1 when he basically used the principle of solid objects penetrating GN Fields to pierce Vitues GN Field and make it an easier prey for GN-Xs.
2)Shooting while dodging isnt much creative either.It shows good raw skills,but no creativity.If you want truly original manuevers,chec out his sand-as-a-shield tactic in SEED or the tactics Shinn used to defeat him or better yet UC tactics like Cammile's ingenious move labeled Beam Confuse.


1)White uniform is what high ranking ZAFT officers use.
2)

As I said earlier I won't argue with u regarding to this matter... Unless u can provide me an official data or prove to backup your opinion... If you can't than we are done... Visual difference? I also don't see visual difference in nu gundam,zeta,double zeta,sazabi,etc and zaku? Does that mean they performance the same?Does that mean they are using the same old basic propulsion system? Think man, think... Beside, U know how long SF battling in his battle in ORB or even in his last battle against destiny and legend? Did u really see SF thruster performance going down and need a resupply? U're proving nothing here, and the worst thing is u don't have anything to back u up...:phew:



Oooo, so for one little move, a very simple move like that u can make conclusion that the performance isn't drop? Hahahaha Stop kidding...
And beside it still goes red (trans am), watch it carefully(I have the movie, I've just watched it)... The time it avoided the attacks it still red, then it's trans am is gone...



See? U again providing me some strange point here... Even if the fang is doing well, the pilot still has to recharge their energy, unless they want their fangs out of energy and doing nothing out there.... Oh really? NO MATTER WHAT? Who are you? GUNDAM DIRECTOR? I don't think so, pilot skill will decide that... And as far as I know kira is better than setsuna in every aspect... He wont let DRAGOON flying together doing nothing in straight line, despite of it he will attack from any direction or he can call them back to avoid the danger... And Kira is not stupid enough to attack using a predictable pattern like ali did... The beam is wide but that doesn't mean you can't avoid it especially using a very agile fighter like SF.... Beside talking about wide range, double X and wing zero's attack still stronger than it...



Spatial indeed needed to be able to control these things.... People with low spatial awareness wont do well using these weapon or might wont be able to control it... In gundam spatial awareness describe as an ability to sense your enemy getting near you, and it is also connected with the ability to control remote weapon..



U know yourself that there are so many test subject regarding to ultimate coordinator which is failed... And kira is the only one who is made it safe,u know why?That means In order to create the "perfect" kid, it's not that easy and that' what make kira special... Normal coordinator genetically still influenced by the mother's womb, some gene is changed. Ultimate coordinator is scientifically full controlled... That means he is "perfect", whatever the prof hibiki wants on his son is possessed by kira... And imagine if prof hibiki want his son to be perfect,then what would it become?? This is also the reason rau says that kira shouldn't exist. He can cause jealousy because he is "perfect". And all of this is what makes him way superior than normal coordinator...



Sorry to disappoint u again, but prayer reverie is not a natural... Even in story it isn't well explained, he's suspected as a clone of mwu la flaga.Could u please start to provide a good point and not making story or saying stupid things like this?Im tired of it... And for me, I think mwu la flaga is the strongest among the natural... And kira is not a newtype,and he never will become one... But his ability to sense his enemy coming from behind and controlling a remote weapon undeniable are "similar" with newtype power .... :phew:
Al and hal combo is one of my favorite part in 00 series and undeniable it is amazing... but it is different from the possession of SEED, it is like combining two personalities into one and work together as one... So they are like combining what they are good at... SEED is a whole different story, improving your aggressivity, concentration, accuracy, ability, reflexes. What if you're already good at it and it's being improved again?.. So they are different, which one is better? Personally? I would choose SEED...
Hey let me ask u something... What are u going to do with innovator's QBT in one on one battle? Calling u're friend to help over? Or controlling u'r enemy? Is it possible? I dont think so... If we are talking about strong coordinator with SEED (kira,athrun,shinn) here against strong innovator in a battle, I would choose strong coordinator with SEED anytime.... BUT, in terms of communication (telepathy more likely) innovator is better and I know it quite well..



Except kira is stupid enough not to avoiding the saber...



Nope,FREEDOM in GSD not Strike freedom... In Strike, he needs to go all out all the time since strike isn't that good MS, beside SF isn't given a chance to participate in many battle, what did u expect? Kira shows a lot of creativity in strike and freedom and that is enough to show how good he is... I told u many times, watch his battle against destiny in ORB u'll see some creativity....



Yes I know and that is exactly what I meant...

Again,you are arguing against the sheer meaning of the word thrust.If rocket thruster doesnt operate by expelling mass from itself it isnt a rocket thruster at all,since thrust IS what I described using a quote from Wikipedia.Its like arguing that Internal Combustion Engine doesnt combust .You are basically arguing against what Thruster is.And how can I back myself up better than with the basic definition of thrust and operation of the rocket and jet thrusters?You are arguing against physics and established technological common sense here buddy.
From Wikipedia



Rocket thrusters are what mobile suits posses,or else they wouldnt be able to move in space,where it is impossible to keep going around on air for obvious reasons .Those very damn flames you see coming out of the thrusters is thrust-matter accelarated and exhausted from the thrusters.Cars exaust doesnt come from nowhere,same here.If Kunio Okawara were to make a Real Robot Gundam that ignores principles of rocket thrust,he would have to be a total retard at engeneering.Last time I checked,most mecha designers are well versed in real life engeneering,Katoki has even recieved engeneering education .

At this rate,you will be arguing against SF succumbing to Newton's law.

BTW,you never see SF run out of Railgun rounds either.Does this mean that SF produces projectiles like some magic MS factory?

For SF not to care about propellant,it would have to be a Super Robot,a class of mechas that dont give 2 shits about common sense and physics and posses almost magical properties(Example:Getter Robo,GaoGaiGar),while SF is Real Robot like all Gundams(cept FC ones).

Hi bud, I never want to argue about thruster to start with... You come up with this point in the first place.... Here we go again, I already told u before... I didn't say you're theory or source is wrong... In fact, they're might be correct... But as u clearly stated earlier, IT IS THE BASIC CONCEPT... U know what it means right? It might be used for the basic for the first generation MS, BUT technically the more advance the MS build in the next generation, the more improvement should be installed on that MS... And for an easy example, thruster is one of it... There are a lot of different thruster installed in different mobile suit... The more advance the MS usually the higher the performance of the thruster itself... Why it has higher performance? Because the mechanic also developing it to make their MS able to move well in the battle field... Now LOGICALLY, is it possible that very advance MS like zeta gundam,zz gundam, nu gundam, wing gundam, strike gundam, freedom gundam still using the same old basic propulsion system? Then how come they're performance are way better than the old MS? I dont understand ur point earlier saying u dont see any visual different, what do u expect? It has to be more colorful? Performance shows everything and that is more than enough... IF it really is needed a resupply, than it fuels must be hold on veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery long... Because there are no indicator at all in anime series when the character using a gundam they are run out of thruster... Ammo maybe, but this?? ... Especially using the very advance one like what I said earlier.. Even in anime, when the freedom first lunch it fly all the way from PLANT to earth and join the battle and facing no problem at all... And kira himself said to AA mechanic that it doesnt need any resupply ... Then when it need it if that journey all the way to earth and directly going to the war still not enough?? As I said, I dont want to debate regarding to this matter, since there are no prove or resource said about it... And wiki is not completely wrong, It really is never known in anime if it is really need any resupply... I've told u earlier, give me some real evidence then we are talking again...

Ummm,they are clearky out of Trans Am by the last plunge

Also I suppose 00-Raiser is redder than Chars Zaku here?



1)First of all,Prayer is a clone of someone from Mobeius Corps,as it should be bloody obvious with Mobeius ZERO's in this scan

Last time I checked those guys were Naturals.Unless you will tell me that Coordinator hater EA allows them right into their elite trump card units...
2)Apparently Im so good at making up stories,that I wrote X Astray...or just went ahead and bribed Deacon Blues and Co at Zeonic-Corps
to translate it the way I wanted it.


Everytime Innovators faced off against CB on equal terms,they were wiping floors with them.Its when Trans Am or 00-Raiser or both come in play that they get asskicked.Plus no Innovator so far has eaten the shame of getting beaten by a normal human in a vastly inferior fighter plane(Mwu and Ed say hi) unlike Coordinators(MS pilots that got humiliated by Mwu and Ed in fighter planes say hi,you too Dearka).

And for someone with good precognition,Kira sure got caught by surprise by Shinns tactics.Thats why Ill stick to Fukudas explanation of Newtype flashes.

Only real thing Coordinators have over Innovators is that they are nowhere near them in terms of arrogance andunderestimating opponents.I shall give them that much.


1)Actually that beam will still get some DRAGOONS regardless of the distance inbetween...much less the fact that DRAGOONs never are way too far from each other anyway.DRAGOONs mobility is nothing out of extraordinary,infact they are fairly big targets compared to something like a Bit.They also dont posses the active dodge or dogfight or shield abilities of Fin Funnel,neither do they have the low profile and range of Bits,Their abilities in atmosphere are so limited that Kira prefers not to deploy them there.They also dont stand out in firepower.
2)Aside from wide beam that is nothing short of unpredictable(since 00-Raiser doesnt look to be able to do that at the first glance),it has rapidfire,which would be especially dangerous to DRAGOONs,among various shooting modes.
3)So by your logic Fangs were kicking Setsunas ass but Ali called them back to make sure they wouldnt run out of juice,turning tables on himself?Just when it was shown that 00-Raiser has absolutely no trouble didging them with badly injured Setsuna at the helm?
4)When did I say that that beam was superior to fully charged TBR or TSC?When did I assume that that beam is the strongest ever?If you want debates concerning all Gundams,this thread is what you seek
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-6863/best-gundam-pilot-and-mobile-suit-gundam/?pg=596#22345589


Except that that is not the point.The point is that Revive "killed" Setsuna in melee.I dont know how it will roll now that Setsuna is rapidly gaining superhuman abilities thanks to GN particles.


1)Except he doesnt show much creativity in Freedom either(as of GSD).Last time he did a good move,was when he used Amruros old shield trick to get an opening on Orga.
2)If by great creativity you mean "taking risk to catch Arondight when dodging or blocking with sabers or beamshields would be more effective",then yeah,he is the most creative kid around the block.


Here we go again .Its not just MS rocket thrusters,it rocket thrusters in general,as in REAL LIFE.From logical,physical standpoint,you are going to need that damn mass to expell.With Nuclear power,it can be months before you run out of propellant,atleast so I do remember from some documentary on Nuclear powered airplanes developed during the cold war.Also,it is not uncommon to use hyperboles in order not to confuse the viewer.Why do you think Sunrise evaluates MS thrust in kilograms,while alot more complicated system is used in real life?

setsuna would pwn kira

Its quite obvious that Setasuna will beat Kira ... He has more plot hax armour than even the almighty Jesus Yamato .

Watch again the movies, look closely and then u'll see by that time 00 raiser still goes red and then turning back blue(before the picture taken,right the time he avoiding the beam)...Beside think clearly,do u really think that trans am only has that short limitation of time? They are only battling for a very short period of time before the CB coming and u know that....
Beside, I already said before,u cannot judge 00 raiser's performance didn't drop by that single movement.. Beside,setsuna already warned by his friends about that attack... He realize that attack will come..



As u said it, he is a clone... And he suspected as mwu's clone... But some people said he is another clone of mwu's father like rau...And u know what if he is a CLONE, even if he is a clone of a natural, he isn't considered as natural. He still is considered as CLONE and not natural... Can u considered rau as natural? Think man...

Prayer said that he can also operate natural OS... Does that mean he can't operate the coordinator one? Then what about rau? Isn't he a clone of natural? Is he considered as natural? Is he only able to control natural OS? So he cannot operate the coordinator OS? Then what about providance? Even kira can configure astray OS into natural type since natural has weaker reflexes and intelegence...Think man...



I think innovators suit is as strong as gundam in 00 series without trans am.... And almost in every battle innovator always lead before the maisters using the trans am... This is showing that innovators is superior... Plus flaga is not a natural... In some sources he is considered as newtype with rau,rey,and kira showned that ability late in the several last episodes... And beside that time sky graspher equipped with strike launcher pack.. It has enough fire power to damage the gundam...

And is there any connection between kira get surprised by shinn tactics and newtype flashes? I think he shows it in his first launch using SF... So I will stay in my research and conclusion about kira's newtype flashes...

Yes maybe against the normal coordinator, innovator will win... But against strong coordinator with the possession of SEED like kira,shinn,or athrun ? They are no way near there…Innovator has gen manipultion and quantum brainwaves (for what? calling his friend in the middle of battle? telephaty? This far in the movies,this is the only thing it can do, it dont shows increasing of any performance),ultimate coordinator has PERFECT gen manipulation which make him superior than the normal one and the possession of SEED... Normal coordinator is superior than normal human especially when they are well trained most likely same like innovator... Ultimate coordinator is better than normal coordinator plus kira is well trained and experienced plus similar newtype ability possession and plus the possession of SEED....You know what that means? Ultimate coordinator is superior than innovator in terms of combat ability especially when SEED kicks in... In communication innovator is better and that's all... Yes i'll give them that much :phew:



Nope,what i'm saying is no matter what happen even if the fang performing well it needs a resupply... No problem? Really? Setsuna's expression when facing that shows different reaction from what u said...

I prefer saying the beam "might" get some of the DRAGOON, not like what u said by saying" it will still get the DRAGOON"... It's like u are forcing ur opinion towards something that never really happening ... ...

Even if setsuna managed to destroy some of them, kira can still attack using the other or using them to distract setsuna attention and then land a direct hit... I know setsuna has several option of shooting mode, normal one, combining, and burst... And let me tell u, DRAGOON can be used as defense eventhough it doesn't create an I field like fin funnel it can create "beam wall" to block incoming attack(watch gundam seed last episode rau use this method)... For dog fighting if I'm not mistaking, legend use his funnel to penetrate destroy's body in the battle in moon ... And what do u mean active dodging? It depends on the pilot since they are the one who is controlling them... In this case kira never lose any single one of his DRAGOON... Bits has more fire power? Based on what? Guessing? Then what if I want to say DRAGOON has more fire power? Give me and official data the comparation between these two and we can talk... Without it I don't want to hear any nonsense...



Revive killed setsuna in melee? Revive is the one who used the gadessa right? Nope revive never killed setsuna to start with... The easiest way to say is setsuna avoid revive's attack using the trans am ability and that's all... And btw now we know why setsuna improve so much, he is a "human innovator"... He might be different than normal innovator and I think setsuna is superior than them... The easiest way to say setsuna is the "evolution" of human in 00's era.... Most likely same like newtype concept in UC... But still, I prefer kira than setsuna..



Let me tell u something..Kira did shows some creativity when he use strike,freedom,or even SF( against destiny in ORB)... When he uses strike, he needs always to go all out or he will get killed since his enemy's suit has most likely the same power with his and he needs to fight against more experienced pilot back then... In freedom he shows some creativity even not that often... What do u expect ? More?... Even amuro only doing it several times and not in every battle of his... I never see any pilot did this in every battle of his and u know that yourself that it is almost impossible....Old trick can also be considered as creative if he thinks it by his own idea... So please use your logic and stop underestimate kira....



Hyperboles? Let me tell u something, what I said above is based on the anime.... And it's REAL....

Ok let just say SF need an energy to expell and he took it from his nuclear powered power plant... Did u know that SF's power plant able to keep recharge and combining it with the nuclear fission provide unlimited power supply? There are 4 gundam in GSD using this power plant and there are none of them facing energy problem except destiny in the tv series... But in the special edition they fix this problem... This makes none of these gundams ever face any power down problem ... And most of that in the battle on ORB, SF ascend from the space and he fought destiny ,when destiny go for resupply SF still goes fighting against many ZAFT suit till destiny come back with legend... Did it's performance drop? nope... In the last battle in messiah, SF and justice go to the station one way before destiny and legend comes to fight... They destroy's the station one, and after that did they go back to resupply? nope, they go straight to fight destiny and legend... They seperate, justice go to requiem and kira keeps battling in messiah... Was in the battle their performance drop? nope... After destroys legend and destiny kira destroys messiah and athrun destroys requiem... Did they facing any energy problem? performance dropping? NOT AT ALL....

Its pretty tough comparing them but I would go with Setsuna. Although Kira and Strike Freedom are good, they don't excite me as much as 00 Gundam.



In Kira's case he never had any combat training and was gentically created to be the ultimate coordinator, if he was not created like that he would be NOTHING at all.

I mean come on Setsuna is a trained soldier, he was not created or had any enhancments, he is simply evolving into something higher because of the GN particles, after all he has defeated 5 innovators and killed 2 of them.

Yup,that is correct... Setsuna is most likely similar with hero in gundam wing... He is a trained soldier to start with.. And as I said earlier he start to evolve into "human innovator" thnx to GN particle... We dont know yet his full cappability...

In the other hand kira might not be well trained in military, but he shows some capability in hand to hand combat in gundam SEED series(in sand country)... His gene as coordinator give him superior ability compare to the normal human... He adapt quickly with his MS, reconstruct it's OS in a second, and fighting against a lot of well trained soldier...

Maybe u like better the idea of setsuna, because he is a normal human who is well trained and evolving compare to enhanced human like kira which has superior ability compare to normal human because of his manipulated gene... But kira also shows some improvement in his ability and develop his piloting skill in the many battle of his... In the end he even gained new ability similar with the newtype has... This is showing that kira is also improve and evolve in different way...

You're right if he wasn't created like "that" he won't be like this. Since it is the main reason kira's character is exist ... Unless he walk in the same path as hero or setsuna as a natural...

It was quite obvious Kira will win hands down. Besides been the Ultimate coordinator, the technology then is far more advanced than Gundam 00's times. So eventhough Beardy Ali's FANG's system seems fast in the Gundam 00 S2, it actually couldn't match up with Maskguy Raww's DRAGOON system of Providence in Gundam Seed -.-

Bet Kira's countless beams and DRAGOON system would've rendered trans-AM Riser useless =.=

Okay,first of all,Kira wouldnt use Exia.Not enough Guns.He have to melee,which is a major weakness for him,aside from his isse'. Kira is a crappy spinoff of Amuro,who has way more skill than kira.He spams the same move over and over.So no.Kira wouldnt be invincible. Fanboy Logic has no place.

Kira weak in melee? Since when? In your dream maybe....In strike and freedom he often goes melee, he beat a lot of enemies in close range battle even in strike freedom he goes melee sometimes...He beat saviour,blitz,duel,providence,destroy all in melee.... Kira hater logic has no place....

Kira weak in melee? Since when? In your dream maybe....In strike and freedom he often goes melee, he beat a lot of enemies in close range battle even in strike freedom he goes melee sometimes...He beat saviour,blitz,duel,providence,destroy all in melee.... Kira hater logic has no place....


He beat the blitz by roataing his gundam around,for gods sake,Colusar could do that,he beat providence after getting his ass handed to him,even though HES THE MAIN CHARACTER!HES SUPPPOSED TO WIN ANYWAY.Saviour was no brainer,the Freedom is broken,so of course another suit Athrun had got pwned.The dev.'s got too lazy,they just made his gundam bleach flash step him. Do you not notice he gets brutalized in close combat? Should I make a amv for you?

If u have that much time please do so... Cause I still didn't see ur point....