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Post Reply Swords in Anime
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Posted 8/24/08
Okay I am quoting this to bring it back to topic.
Since no one helped me move the off-topic posts, I hope you all don't mind that I deleted them. I would rather have had them moved, but only you guys can do that.

Here's the OP:
____________________________________________________________________


A blade is a useless tool when not in the hands of a skilled practitioner.
Therefore the strength of the blade is irrelevant aside from metallurgical necessities so that the blade will not break easier and it can cut effectively.
Aside from this, the blade is only as strong as the wielder's skill.

Most of these anime guys like Inuyasha, Cloud, and the like just swing ridiculous sized swords [which would not be effective even if they could be lifted so easily] like a baseball bat like some idiot who has never been taught how to even hold a sword properly.

The buster sword and the tetsusaiga would have no real potency in a fight.
Why? Because first and foremost there is no defining techniques they use. Swinging something around like that leaves them invariably open and would not be capable of being swung like they swung it regardless of the wielder's strength as physics and gravity come into play. It's unreality borders complete nonsense in that it defies all physics or logic and thus I can say correctly, both as a literary student and writer, and a martial artist with 18 years experience and stage combat choreography under my belt, that it is completely and utterly useless.

Yes I know it's anime. However a good anime, like any good piece of fantasy work, takes reference [example: a sword] from realism and therefore logically to utilize these references, realism must be implemented into the use of these references for it to be valid.


For example. Take the lightsaber. A perfect example of a fantasy weapon in the archetype of a sword.
In storytelling, everything must have some sort of reason for the way it exists or else such plot devices will fail.

The lightsaber's techniques were inspired by kendo, fencing, and escrima.
Kendo and fencing for the combative principles and many movements.
Escrima was used because the major distinctive aspect that sets a lightsaber apart is that it has no counter weight. It's just a hilt in which some sort of energy [which is weightless] and so escrima [which uses sticks only slightly longer than the hilt of a sword or lightsaber in this case] was used as to explain the connection and fill the gap between the use and it's problem. So if someone asks "How the hell does a lightsaber work? Wouldn't spinning around and crap like that just get them cut" then all bases are covered and there are logical explanations that can be answered.

So even in fantasy if someone were to ignore all of this, it would be complete nonsense.
Which is why truly great works of fantasy do not ignore this logic and surpass all the thoughtless ignorant crap floating around.


On another note; as for a sword being able to cut stone or metal like you see on an anime, this is another great flaw.
You see, if someone really wanted to have their anime taken seriously [which more of the intellectual "seinen" show this and the "shonen" or "Little Boy Anime" like DBZ, Inuyasha, and the like don't probably because they know kids probably won't care either way] they would implement a reason as to why something has the ability to do such fantastic things. In this case the answer would lie in the materials.

For a brief introduction to metallurgy; A sword is made of steel [A real sword that is. Not one of those crappy 440 stainless steel wallhangers that you can buy for less than 500 bucks] and steel is a compound of refined iron and carbon. Now the carbon does a certain thing. The more carbon in a sword the more flexible that sword becomes.

If there is too much carbon, it is too flexible. It is harder to break but it loses much strength and cutting/penetration power.
If there is not enough carbon, it is too rigid. It is much stronger yet any blade-on blade contact will result in it shattering very easily.

This is the reason that this entire topic is pretty pointless as a sword that is strong in one way is weak in another.
The katana is NEVER used in swashbuckling [repeated blade-on-blade contact like parrying and blocking and locks] as it would break easily. When there is blade on blade contact [which I have only encountered only two techniques for this in my experiences] the edge [as usually incorrectly portrayed in anime] is never in contact but rather the side of the blade. Edge-on-Edge would chip the blade indefinitely which is the last nail in the coffin for whoever made such a incredibly stupid mistake.

So cutting such hard materials like metal and rock is virtually impossible with any metallic sword no matter the material since if it had enough strength to actually cut such a thing it would indefinitely break. If it had enough durability to withstand such a strike without breaking, it would indefinitely hold no such cutting quality to actually penetrate the material.


Furthermore I might mention my objections with the gunblade.

It would be grossly ineffective for either function.
Why?

1. Gun: The weight of the sword will render the gun incredibly inaccurate.
2. Sword: The handle would render the versatility of techniques completely incompetent in which fighting with it as a sword would be pointless.

Hence why the pinfire sword [a real gun-blade] was a great failure. The pinfire was still more effective in design than the gunblade.


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Posted 8/24/08



Furthermore I might mention my objections with the gunblade.

It would be grossly ineffective for either function.
Why?

1. Gun: The weight of the sword will render the gun incredibly inaccurate.
2. Sword: The handle would render the versatility of techniques completely incompetent in which fighting with it as a sword would be pointless.

Hence why the pinfire sword [a real gun-blade] was a great failure. The pinfire was still more effective in design than the gunblade.
-Ice


I'm half way with you on combination weapons Ice.

Many combination weapons such as the war hammer wheellock, mace wheellock,and the ax match/wheel lock weapons were quite pitiful. Though I must say i'm quite fond of the halberd double barreled wheellock; not to mention the matchlock ax/dagger was quite effective as well as the pinfire sword revolver which many officers used.

I'm also a lttile curious which pinfire you're talking about, there were several. Unless you mean in general.
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Posted 8/24/08

Telomonian wrote:




Furthermore I might mention my objections with the gunblade.

It would be grossly ineffective for either function.
Why?

1. Gun: The weight of the sword will render the gun incredibly inaccurate.
2. Sword: The handle would render the versatility of techniques completely incompetent in which fighting with it as a sword would be pointless.

Hence why the pinfire sword [a real gun-blade] was a great failure. The pinfire was still more effective in design than the gunblade.
-Ice


I'm half way with you on combination weapons Ice.

Many combination weapons such as the war hammer wheellock, mace wheellock,and the ax match/wheel lock weapons were quite pitiful. Though I must say i'm quite fond of the halberd double barreled wheellock; not to mention the matchlock ax/dagger was quite effective as well as the pinfire sword revolver which many officers used.

I'm also a lttile curious which pinfire you're talking about, there were several. Unless you mean in general.

I meant in general they all were.
If they were effective, they would have been more popular.

IE:

It would be grossly ineffective for either function.
Why?

1. Gun: The weight of the sword will render the gun incredibly inaccurate.
2. Sword: The handle would render the versatility of techniques completely incompetent in which fighting with it as a sword would be pointless.



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Posted 8/24/08



Furthermore I might mention my objections with the gunblade.

It would be grossly ineffective for either function.
Why?

1. Gun: The weight of the sword will render the gun incredibly inaccurate.
2. Sword: The handle would render the versatility of techniques completely incompetent in which fighting with it as a sword would be pointless.

Hence why the pinfire sword [a real gun-blade] was a great failure. The pinfire was still more effective in design than the gunblade.
-Ice


I'm half way with you on combination weapons Ice.

Many combination weapons such as the war hammer wheellock, mace wheellock,and the ax match/wheel lock weapons were quite pitiful. Though I must say i'm quite fond of the halberd double barreled wheellock; not to mention the matchlock ax/dagger was quite effective as well as the pinfire sword revolver which many officers used.

I'm also a lttile curious which pinfire you're talking about, there were several. Unless you mean in general.

I meant in general they all were.
If they were effective, they would have been more popular.

IE:

It would be grossly ineffective for either function.
Why?

1. Gun: The weight of the sword will render the gun incredibly inaccurate.
2. Sword: The handle would render the versatility of techniques completely incompetent in which fighting with it as a sword would be pointless.





In many cases that was so....however the reason the few good ones didn't make it was do to the difficulty and expence in the making. You should research the rest of the combination weapons instead of just focusing on the pinfires. I think you'll find some interesting ones that were quite useful as well.
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Posted 8/24/08 , edited 8/24/08


In many cases that was so....however the reason the few good ones didn't make it was do to the difficulty and expence in the making. You should research the rest of the combination weapons instead of just focusing on the pinfires. I think you'll find some interesting ones that were quite useful as well.

Can you show me which ones and explain why they are useful?
I have not seen any combos that are very useful.
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Posted 8/24/08

Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:



In many cases that was so....however the reason the few good ones didn't make it was do to the difficulty and expence in the making. You should research the rest of the combination weapons instead of just focusing on the pinfires. I think you'll find some interesting ones that were quite useful as well.

Can you show me which ones and explain why they are useful?
I have not seen any combos that are very useful.


I previously listed some, all you got to do is look 'em up man.
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Posted 8/25/08

Telomonian wrote:


Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:



In many cases that was so....however the reason the few good ones didn't make it was do to the difficulty and expence in the making. You should research the rest of the combination weapons instead of just focusing on the pinfires. I think you'll find some interesting ones that were quite useful as well.

Can you show me which ones and explain why they are useful?
I have not seen any combos that are very useful.


I previously listed some, all you got to do is look 'em up man.

I tried. I find either no matches or dead ends.
I explained my point, you should explain yours.

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Posted 8/25/08


In many cases that was so....however the reason the few good ones didn't make it was do to the difficulty and expence in the making. You should research the rest of the combination weapons instead of just focusing on the pinfires. I think you'll find some interesting ones that were quite useful as well.

Can you show me which ones and explain why they are useful?
I have not seen any combos that are very useful.


I previously listed some, all you got to do is look 'em up man.

I tried. I find either no matches or dead ends.
I explained my point, you should explain yours.





Pinfire Sword revolvers were made by many famous arms makers, including Lefaucheux, Dumonthier, Lepage, and Devisme. At the Paris Universal Exhibition held in 1867, at least thirty different types of swords revolvers were on display. Combining the advaced pinfire cartridge revolver with the traditional sword was a temptation that few arms makers could resist. Although never officially adopted as a military service weapon, the sword-revolver found much favor among officer corps of many European nations. - Ron Ruble

There are many others on MyArmoury.com.
I did explain my reasons Ice.
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Posted 8/25/08


Can you show me which ones and explain why they are useful?
I have not seen any combos that are very useful.


I previously listed some, all you got to do is look 'em up man.

I tried. I find either no matches or dead ends.
I explained my point, you should explain yours.





Pinfire Sword revolvers were made by many famous arms makers, including Lefaucheux, Dumonthier, Lepage, and Devisme. At the Paris Universal Exhibition held in 1867, at least thirty different types of swords revolvers were on display. Combining the advaced pinfire cartridge revolver with the traditional sword was a temptation that few arms makers could resist. Although never officially adopted as a military service weapon, the sword-revolver found much favor among officer corps of many European nations. - Ron Ruble

There are many others on MyArmoury.com.
I did explain my reasons Ice.



You said why they weren't popular, but aside that you never made any counterpoints.
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Posted 8/26/08
There is not much for one to say other than: Many of the combination weapons were of a weak design and made poor weapons for fighting as you stated and I agreed, however I also stated that not all of them were.

You asked for some examples and for me to explain how they were usfull, I listed a web page that has a few combination weapons that are of sound creation and were used as any other weapon. I dont have the time to explain all of them and a few even I don't know much about, but if you want certan ones explained I'll do my best to do so.

You said that you did not like combination weapons in general and that if they were more effective they would have been more popular. I replied with "In many cases that was so....however the reason the few good ones didn't make it was do to the difficulty and expence in the making."

If there is anything I missed please, let me know so I may answer. Also I'm not sure if this is considered on the topic of such so, perhaps we should move this into the General Discussion.

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Posted 8/26/08

Telomonian wrote:

There is not much for one to say other than: Many of the combination weapons were of a weak design and made poor weapons for fighting as you stated and I agreed, however I also stated that not all of them were.

You asked for some examples and for me to explain how they were usfull, I listed a web page that has a few combination weapons that are of sound creation and were used as any other weapon. I dont have the time to explain all of them and a few even I don't know much about, but if you want certan ones explained I'll do my best to do so.

You said that you did not like combination weapons in general and that if they were more effective they would have been more popular. I replied with "In many cases that was so....however the reason the few good ones didn't make it was do to the difficulty and expence in the making."

If there is anything I missed please, let me know so I may answer. Also I'm not sure if this is considered on the topic of such so, perhaps we should move this into the General Discussion.



Nono I meant in particular countering this:

1. Gun: The weight of the sword will render the gun incredibly inaccurate.
2. Sword: The handle would render the versatility of techniques completely incompetent in which fighting with it as a sword would be pointless.


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Posted 8/26/08

Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:


Telomonian wrote:

There is not much for one to say other than: Many of the combination weapons were of a weak design and made poor weapons for fighting as you stated and I agreed, however I also stated that not all of them were.

You asked for some examples and for me to explain how they were usfull, I listed a web page that has a few combination weapons that are of sound creation and were used as any other weapon. I dont have the time to explain all of them and a few even I don't know much about, but if you want certan ones explained I'll do my best to do so.

You said that you did not like combination weapons in general and that if they were more effective they would have been more popular. I replied with "In many cases that was so....however the reason the few good ones didn't make it was do to the difficulty and expence in the making."

If there is anything I missed please, let me know so I may answer. Also I'm not sure if this is considered on the topic of such so, perhaps we should move this into the General Discussion.



Nono I meant in particular countering this:

1. Gun: The weight of the sword will render the gun incredibly inaccurate.
2. Sword: The handle would render the versatility of techniques completely incompetent in which fighting with it as a sword would be pointless.





It depends on the pinfire. For some, that may stand true and for others not so much. If I am to to give specific counter points, I need you to be specific about which pinfire, there are many gun/sword combination weapons. I know you were speaking of them in general, but that just shouldn't be done.

#1 "The weight of the sword will render the gun incredibly inaccurate." that is true for some but not others.
#2 "The handle would render the versatility of techniques completely incompetent in which fighting with it as a sword would be pointless." again that is true for some but not others.

The pinfire I preveously posted does not render the versatility of techniques completely useless nor does the weight of the blade cause the gun to be inaccurate.
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Posted 8/26/08

Telomonian wrote:


Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:


Telomonian wrote:

There is not much for one to say other than: Many of the combination weapons were of a weak design and made poor weapons for fighting as you stated and I agreed, however I also stated that not all of them were.

You asked for some examples and for me to explain how they were usfull, I listed a web page that has a few combination weapons that are of sound creation and were used as any other weapon. I dont have the time to explain all of them and a few even I don't know much about, but if you want certan ones explained I'll do my best to do so.

You said that you did not like combination weapons in general and that if they were more effective they would have been more popular. I replied with "In many cases that was so....however the reason the few good ones didn't make it was do to the difficulty and expence in the making."

If there is anything I missed please, let me know so I may answer. Also I'm not sure if this is considered on the topic of such so, perhaps we should move this into the General Discussion.



Nono I meant in particular countering this:

1. Gun: The weight of the sword will render the gun incredibly inaccurate.
2. Sword: The handle would render the versatility of techniques completely incompetent in which fighting with it as a sword would be pointless.





It depends on the pinfire. For some, that may stand true and for others not so much. If I am to to give specific counter points, I need you to be specific about which pinfire, there are many gun/sword combination weapons. I know you were speaking of them in general, but that just shouldn't be done.

#1 "The weight of the sword will render the gun incredibly inaccurate." that is true for some but not others.
#2 "The handle would render the versatility of techniques completely incompetent in which fighting with it as a sword would be pointless." again that is true for some but not others.

The pinfire I preveously posted does not render the versatility of techniques completely useless nor does the weight of the blade cause the gun to be inaccurate.


I am speaking in general of any sword/gun combination.
I just used the pinfire as an example.

You didn't explain why it wouldn't hinder the accuracy or the sword techniques.

Being a long time gunslinger I can't imagine it would have any accuracy.
As a long time swordsman I can't imagine it would be able to be wielded as a sword properly unless techniques were made specifically for it.


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The sword wouldn't hinder the accuracy because the guns weren't used for long rang shooting so that mattered little anyway nor were the blades that heavy on some of the swords, such as the rapier I listed. The guns were used as a back up against opponents with guns, combination weapons, or if the opponent(s) were to much for them to handle. All for short to medium range, the guns on things of such were usually snub nosed anyway so the thought of using them for any other purpose than short ranged combat would be the foolish mistake and death of the user.

As for being able to use the sword properly. The guns on the blades were ussually small, single round, and were placed on the balance point. Not to mention, any swordsman will mold the techniques they learned to suit them as individual according to their style, personality, and the weapon of choice. Combination weapons included.

I have been a gun and blade user for many years as well and it's all about preference when it comes to combination weapons. If one chooses to use things of such, they adapt to do so, as with anything.

To the readers. I'm not saying all of the combination weapons were usefull, MOST were worthless. I'm just saying that not all were useless for combat purposes.
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Posted 8/27/08 , edited 8/27/08

Telomonian wrote:




The sword wouldn't hinder the accuracy because the guns weren't used for long rang shooting so that mattered little anyway nor were the blades that heavy on some of the swords, such as the rapier I listed. The guns were used as a back up against opponents with guns, combination weapons, or if the opponent(s) were to much for them to handle. All for short to medium range, the guns on things of such were usually snub nosed anyway so the thought of using them for any other purpose than short ranged combat would be the foolish mistake and death of the user.

As for being able to use the sword properly. The guns on the blades were ussually small, single round, and were placed on the balance point. Not to mention, any swordsman will mold the techniques they learned to suit them as individual according to their style, personality, and the weapon of choice. Combination weapons included.

I have been a gun and blade user for many years as well and it's all about preference when it comes to combination weapons. If one chooses to use things of such, they adapt to do so, as with anything.

To the readers. I'm not saying all of the combination weapons were usefull, MOST were worthless. I'm just saying that not all were useless for combat purposes.


Okay I see.
I was under the understanding the hilt was heavily modified to fit the gun as well, which would most definitely hinder the abilities of swordsmanship?

I did not know they were short range only. I learned something.
So if you were fighting, you could just attack at the upper-body [feint] and shoot them?
Is that the usual technique? I would think it would leave you open which is why I assumed that it's range must be farther to be useful.

Ah and the rapier, while being a much lighter blade than others, is still hefty in it's own. It's the distribution of weight as it's a very long blade.

If I pick up both my katana and my rapier, my katana is much lighter and more comfortable.

The distribution of weight kills in the midst of a battle. Wounds + sore muscles + distributed weight over a lengthy blade = hard to wield the blade.
I've seen that in Fencing with the sore muscles alone. It really kills.
Some of those in the class who were of lesser body mass often were not able to go on. I had trouble so I built up my upper-body strength to counter it, but it only countered it for awhile. In the end, it doesn't matter.


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