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YOUR RESPONSE: Olympics Women's Gymnastics - China Too Under-aged?
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Posted 8/15/08 , edited 8/15/08

EROSORE wrote:


axbabe04u wrote:
Why is there issue about these Chinese women's gymnastic team and their age? Are those who seem to have a problem with it only intimidated by it? I always believed that one should be measured by their talents first despite their age. China's gymnastics is practiced when these kids were at the age of 3-4 so they are likely more than qualified by the age of 14-15.

Those girls have done a great job managing their team througout the Olympic competitions and they well-deserved the gold medal and that is despite their age! In a way, you could say that USA (from age 16-20) were beaten by a team that were atleast 2 years younger then ALL of them. Doesn't that sound worst?

1.
OK. Age does matter in gymnastics. The rule was designed to keep out prepubescent children to keep them from stunting their growth. However younger gymnasts do have an advantage in competition. They have lower body weight and bone density (which is why it is far more dangerous for them to compete). This means that they can fly farther on most exercises. However possibly the largest advantage is that during puberty the center of gravity shifts higher in women. If the Chinese Gymnasts are prepubescent then this will make it much easier for them to balance on all events. Anyway you are assuming that no countries which followed the rules had Olympic quality gymnasts under the age of 16. Nastia Liukin would have been on the US team in the last Olympics if she had not been underage.


axbabe04u wrote:
[Being an Olympic and a gymnastics fan, I am quite offended by this inconsiderate, disrespectful, and a bit biased article towards the Chinese womens gymnastic's team. China won the gold fairly and it was clearly USA's major mistakes that deserved them the silver, respectively!

In addition, wouldn't most of you agree that Asian's tend to look younger than the average person? Of course, this doesn't apply for everyone but generally, it is believed so. There are other articles that says they have proven that atleast 3-4 of the Chinese women's gymnastics team are underaged which contradicts with the Olympics age qualifications but the passports of these girls stated they were 16. Other than Cheng Fei (20), I instantly believed that the other girls seemed too young to be 16 but that notion dissappeared after I saw how talented and determined they were in what (one of the things) they do best, gymnastics.

2. Just so you know this story was originally reported by a Chinese media source before it was picked up by the New York Times. Anyway I find it very likely that they are underage. Online records listing Chinese gymnasts and their ages that were posted on official Web sites in China, along with ages given in the official Chinese news media all showed that at least three of the gymnasts are underage. I don't believe that you can determine someones age using their looks, talent, or determination, and in this case I don't really trust their passports. Chinese gymnasts from the 2000 Sydney Olympics have admitted to being underage and participating (with a fake passport) so they don't really have a history of being honest.


axbabe04u wrote:
Avoiding over-analyzing defining how a 16-year-old should look like or act, I watched how this Chinese team handled pressure against USA and how they managed to stay on top with such ease during the pre-eliminary rounds. Whether or not the ages in the passports were fabricated or not, Olympians should be measured by their talents and not by their age. Ultimately, the Chinese women's Olympic gymnastic team accomplished and well-deserved the gold and they did it with passion.

Many also question China's human rights towards the idea of 3-4 year old's elite training that are equivalently taught by the age of 10-12 in the US and other parts of the world. I agree at some level but it definitely paid off this Olympic year!!! Many would also agree that both the men and the women's Chinese gymnastics team should receive the respect and recognition that they deserve without biased or prejudice!



3. I'm probably going to get flamed for this but oh well. If you break any rule at all in the Olympics, even if the rule should not exist then you do not deserve your medal. Olympic athletes are held to a high standard and should be the paragons of sportsmanship. They are meant to be role modes. That is why their is so much controversy over performance enhancing drugs, it is a breach of sportsmanship. Breaking rules is not something that should be rewarded and this is especially true when you are on an international stage.


axbabe04u wrote:
Many also question China's human rights towards the idea of 3-4 year old's elite training that are equivalently taught by the age of 10-12 in the US and other parts of the world. I agree at some level but it definitely paid off this Olympic year!!! Many would also agree that both the men and the women's Chinese gymnastics team should receive the respect and recognition that they deserve without biased or prejudice!


4. This is not a situation in which the ends justify the means. Sacrificing the health of children who are too young to make a choice in order to promote a sport is not really a justifiable action. Sure it worked in this Olympics but it isn't really something which we should praise. Isn't this just a way of using people as tools.






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Oh okay! Here I go again:


1. Yes, I know the reason why age qualification exist and yes, I think they should decrease it to atleast 14-15 like in the past. I didn't assume anything and it's ridiculous and rather point out the 'what if's or who (Luikin) could have been qualified if the age qualification were changed. From what I've read, you seem to be contradicting your point. First and foremost, you have to consider the fact that this allegations towards the Chinese women's gymnastic team as they are and they're proven false; therefore, you should avoid making your point that Luikin could have been in the Olympics four years ago if this or that (were to) happened. The Age Qualification were already applied four years ago and let's leave it at that. So yes, the reason why Liukin and other gymnist weren't qualified then was because they would have been underaged; in addition, I would rather not emphasize on the 'what ifs' or assume any possibilities that any of the Chinese women's gymnastic teammates are not of age qualification to prove a point. I'm also not arguing or implying anything so I'm quite unsure where you were going with that or what you meant by it....?

Another thing I've noticed from Youtubers is that this notion that being younger and having a better built gymnastic body makes you a better gymnist compared to those who may be a little older and slimmer. I really don't think difference in age (although it does somewhat play a major part depending on the situation or sport) and body type measures talent. Meaning, all is game and fair if a younger and someone who is older compete in a game (yes, in of age qualification, too)--there's been incidents where the older players beat the younger players and vice versa; for example, 41-year-old swimmer, Torres. Body type varies with each individual so I don't really see that an issue in gymnastic. Yes, if you have the right amount of training, physic, and balance to do a vault or an uneven bar then that's great! You don't need a certain amount of muscles to be able to perform a certain routine; although, weight could be an issue to some--an example, Luikin and Yelin are able to do both the uneven bars and vault just as well as Johnson; and some weight gain may result in decrease in performance where Cheng Fei, Chinese women's gymnastic team's leader, had trouble but accomplished through training.

2. Yes, I know that fact and to trust/believe the allegations or not depends on how you view the situations and yes, I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion. In the other hand, I chose to be more optimistic and realistic about the situation and have confidence, along with the Olympics, that these Chinese women's gymnastic team are more than qualified to participate in the Olympic gymnastic competition. Why? For the exact reason that I've pointed out already and repeatedly in this thread.

3. Yes and yes, rules are rules and they should be abided by all times but are they always no. Should the Olympics be strict if these rules are not met? Yes, again. I'm not opposing or favoring these Chinese women's gymnastic team but I do believe that the biased surrounding these allegations are unfair. In addition, you will need to consider what the Olympics are willing to do with this matter and they've clearly mentioned that they will not further investigate these allegations and that they are convinced and confident to allow the Chinese women's gymnastic team to continue their participation in the Olympics gymnastic competitions.

If the Olympics don't see the reason to doubt them, why should we? Is it the intimidation that these girls who look younger than their competitors or maybe it's the possibility that this Chinese team are better than other Olympic gymnastic team including the U.S. team, who were favored to win gold at the team competition?

4. I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. The health of these gymnist should be top priority but with that said, who are we to judge how the Chinese prepare for gymnastics when surely, other parts of this world are not innocent either. It's just that China and their 'gymnastics program' are so highly acknowledged in a rather negative way, too, but because people know about these 'gymnastics program' doesn't mean that China doesn't deserves recognition for their participation in the Olympics. That's just biased, disrespectful, and not to mention against the sake of Olympics.

In addition, the Olympics is to unite the world of sports and to acknowledge accomplisments whether or not a medal were received. I just can't help but realize that biased exist against the Chinese women's gymnastic team and it's unfortunate because the hardwork, dedication, teamwork, talents, and abilities of these young women and the country which they represent (China) are overshadowed by unproven allegations, scrutiny, and disrespect.






* Although the following conversation is from Youtube, the topic relates to this subject. Read it at your own will--either way, it may or may not matter...:



- Youtuber states,

"It's not the fact that China wants to win the most medals ever, it's the means by which they pursue that end. There were several interesting stories on the allegedly mainstream news network: NBC about China's Project 119. They started from the beginning, spotting talent in children at age 3 and seperating them from their families. Then they showed the daily studies(which seemed adequite) and of course the daily excercise(which seemed a bit rigorous for kindergarten).

I am watching a news story on NBC's website. Though I don't agree with the networks blatantly obvious political stance, I know from experience how hard it is to create a video about China, filmed on Chinese soil. Videos are reviewed and scrutinized if they are to be aired on any media medium. It seemed fairly honest to me. By the way, thank you for keeping this argument civilized. Some some with less control have cursed my views with no real argument.

Theirs is a program on par with some those of elite military units. This isn't the spirit of peaceful competition for which the Olympics is held. In layman's terms: "It's psychodic over-achieving for metal disks worth exactly their weight in gold!" I would take pride in my nation simply for fielding athletes who are able to compete at such a level. It's sadly become all about shiney pieces of rare metals...

So I am continueing on another comment. Any ways, They then showed an olympian: Zhao Yonghua who had competed as a skier in winter games. She is 31 now, forced to retire after here body deteriorated and she was found to have untreated diabetes which had almost killed her during her years of training. She spent most of the last decade in bed, and lives off $33 dollars a month in welfare. She said she regrets her athletic career. Yes, these young women deserve gold for the performances they put on, though it is unfortunate if they bent the rules to do so."




- My response,

"Opinions are bound to happen in everything and anything but there is a borderline where people shouldn't cross--discrimination, prejudice, inconsideration, and disrespectful. In fact, noone has the right to belittle any coach when there's no reason to...

I believe China isn't the only victim who are willing to 'by which pursue the end' and to only win gold medals. In fact, that's rather innappropriate for anyone to label them in such negativity. In addition, yes, I am familiar with the media attention regarding the 'gymnastics schools' available in China but somehow, I believed the media over-analyzed and surely edited their documentaries accordingly to their own regulations and to even (blindly) promote a negative perspective of these schools.

You've metioned that the daily studies seemed adequate but not the daily excercise. What was shown is probably a routine which a certain stage or level have been approached and it is heartbreaking to see any child in tears. The thing is that, these documentaries can also be one dimensional and may want to provoke a certain emotion or opinion which most would show a child is in tears during an (unimaginable) situation or due to excessive exercises. Yet, if you look around, you may notice other kids who may not be in the same emotional state and rather in a calm state; although, this may not apply or occur in all documentaries.

In addition, I've always believed that the best way to get a better understanding of how things are done is to experience them first-hand. One day, I would love to visit and stay at a 'gymnastic school' in China for a couple of weeks, if allowed, and form an opinion afterwards. I think it'll be quite an experience and nonetheless, fascinating to see these kids transform over a short and long period of time.

Yes, rules shouldn't be broken and actions should be taken if the allegations are rightfully true. In this case (Chinese women's gymnastic team), it's not so and so is it fair to assume or accuse that it is true and to acknowledge this team of 'cheating' anyway?

Yes, I saw the segment on Zhao Yonghua and her story is truly tragic and unfortunate. I agree with you and China should ensure better care of their athletes after retirement but realistically, all athletes gamble their health and lives to play the sport. Some are unfortunate to have it end so soon and so sudden--it's not fair but that is how it is.

Of course, compared to Zhao it is not likely for other athletes to be so neglected to such an extent and China is definitely far from perfect...."







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Posted 8/15/08

axbabe04u wrote:


YonNobul wrote:


h4x0rz wrote:


wonone wrote:

Yeah but even proof won't work, the proplem is they think china faked those id's.Which is something most americans want to believe very much.

The number of critics are just unbelievable.I don't think anyone will know the truth apart from china.


some people are trying to make this look like some epic Democracy vs Communism battle instead of a quadrennial event to promote unity and sportsmanship that is.


Nobody but the ones trying to deflect are saying its a battle between Democracy and Communism. This is a battle against rampant corruption in China and the Olympic committee in general.

Ignorance has also made this debate thrive further. Most people don't even know the minimum age required is to be 16 in 2008 as I pointed out that ignorance in a previous post.

It is not about who is better at gymnastics or not. This is a moral battle and China if proven would be dishonoring themselves as host of the Olympics.




People are so ignorant to believe that China is a Communist country and excuse it by saying they are corrupted. You admitted that there IS no proof of China fabricating the passport, yet, you're more than confident to say they did. Contracdicting, isnt? I'd rather be more optimistic and realistic about this situation and disregard the assumptions. And this issue about the age qualification has been going on for years especially in gymnastics. Even USA had a 14 year old gymnist and the USA team won gold that year, too, but no such controversy was ever made...

And you know what? Let's just enjoy the games as it is and keep the competitions in the Olympics game between the gymnist now. As some may say that 'China cheated', which doesn't make sense how or if solid proof were ever revealed', the competition is shown on TV where people should try to judge more on their talents and ability for their country rather than other distractions.

Why is there a conversation about Georgia VS Russia?




*cough*

The rule for 16 and over was enacted the year after USA won gold in 1997 with the fourteen year-old so that is why no controversy was ever made. I also would like to make further comment that I myself have not directly said that China's gymnast are underage, but I defended other people's right to criticize. As for evidence of corruption in China, any evidence is circumstancial just like global warming and many people believe in global warming don't they. Half the fun in watching Olympics is the controversies. Ah youngsters, *sigh*.....

Why is there a conversation about Georgia VS Russia?

I don't know. I didn't even bring it up. I just answered the conversation moved that way.
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Posted 8/15/08

YonNobul wrote:


axbabe04u wrote:


YonNobul wrote:


h4x0rz wrote:


wonone wrote:

Yeah but even proof won't work, the proplem is they think china faked those id's.Which is something most americans want to believe very much.

The number of critics are just unbelievable.I don't think anyone will know the truth apart from china.


some people are trying to make this look like some epic Democracy vs Communism battle instead of a quadrennial event to promote unity and sportsmanship that is.


Nobody but the ones trying to deflect are saying its a battle between Democracy and Communism. This is a battle against rampant corruption in China and the Olympic committee in general.

Ignorance has also made this debate thrive further. Most people don't even know the minimum age required is to be 16 in 2008 as I pointed out that ignorance in a previous post.

It is not about who is better at gymnastics or not. This is a moral battle and China if proven would be dishonoring themselves as host of the Olympics.




People are so ignorant to believe that China is a Communist country and excuse it by saying they are corrupted. You admitted that there IS no proof of China fabricating the passport, yet, you're more than confident to say they did. Contracdicting, isnt? I'd rather be more optimistic and realistic about this situation and disregard the assumptions. And this issue about the age qualification has been going on for years especially in gymnastics. Even USA had a 14 year old gymnist and the USA team won gold that year, too, but no such controversy was ever made...

And you know what? Let's just enjoy the games as it is and keep the competitions in the Olympics game between the gymnist now. As some may say that 'China cheated', which doesn't make sense how or if solid proof were ever revealed', the competition is shown on TV where people should try to judge more on their talents and ability for their country rather than other distractions.

Why is there a conversation about Georgia VS Russia?




*cough*

The rule for 16 and over was enacted the year after USA won gold in 1997 with the fourteen year-old so that is why no controversy was ever made. I also would like to make further comment that I myself have not directly said that China's gymnast are underage, but I defended other people's right to criticize. As for evidence of corruption in China, any evidence is circumstancial just like global warming and many people believe in global warming don't they. Half the fun in watching Olympics is the controversies. Ah youngsters, *sigh*.....

Why is there a conversation about Georgia VS Russia?

I don't know. I didn't even bring it up. I just answered the conversation moved that way.






Yes, I know what the age qualification rule was 15 at the time when Kerri Strug competed at 14 in the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona and when Moceano was 14 when she partcipated in the 1996 Olympics. My point is that those were knowingly facts by the Olympics and its viewers but even understand the fact that it was okay then considering those girls turned 15 that same year they participated at 14, is there always favor with the U.S. Meaning, China is in a bit the same situation yet highly accused (esp. by the U.S. media) and scrutinized for only looking younger than 16 which isn't much of an argument in the first place because 16-year-olds don't look the same or have to in other parts of the world.

In addition, some Asian women ARE smaller and shorter than the average person and I'm not sure if this was ever thought of but the Japanese gymnastic team look about the same as the Chinese gymnastics team. So why are the Japanese not occused of looking younger than 16? Maybe its because they're not the Chinese and they did not win gold. Is it safe to say that? Corruption in China is not new and other gov't are just as corrupted or worst...the difference is that some gov't have a better way of covering their tracks than some. And you can't possibly support the assumption that the Chinese gov't must've forged the passports because they are already have a corrupted gov't. I would believe that the Olympics are well-aware of it and have looked into it but again, they have no reason to doubt them or the Chinese gymnastic team; therefore, they have dropped all allegations.

If controversies is what you look for in an Olympic, fine...be it but don't look for it or believe that controversies are true when unproven only for the 'fun' of it. Unlike you and what makes you and I different is that I watch the Olympics because it's interesting to see the world match against each other. It's not about who's the best in the world or who wins the most medals, it's about the idea of the world uniting for a little bit even if it's for the sake of sport.

And as for the topic regarding Georgia VS Russia deserves it's own thread.
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Posted 8/15/08 , edited 8/15/08
The problem that people are having with it is that the olymipc rules state that the gymnasts must be 16 years of age.
They chose this age because of the level of developing bodies. If the girls are younger then that, there is a significatly higher risk of an injury that would plague them for the rest of their lives.

It's not about the age because of talent. It's the age for the RULES.
If those chinese girls are underage, then flat out, China cheated, if they aren't (which i really don't care either way) then it's all good. The controversy is due to the rules.
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Posted 8/15/08 , edited 8/15/08

Dusterbayala wrote:

The problem that people are having with it is that the olymipc rules state that the gymnasts must be 16 years of age.
They chose this age because of the level of developing bodies. If the girls are younger then that, there is a significatly higher risk of an injury that would plague them for the rest of their lives.

It's not about the age because of talent. It's the age for the RULES.
If those chinese girls are underage, then flat out, China cheated, if they aren't (which i really don't care either way) then it's all good. The controversy is due to the rules.





Yes, I'm aware of what you're saying and have posted my thoughts on it repeatedly in this thread. I didn't oppose or argue the age qualification and I do believe it's there for a reason. If you read my post above (the longer one), you will see me highlight on it. These rules have been breached and 'excused' many times but somehow, it's almost forced to the Chinese because simply, their athletes look younger than 16. Yet, some are careless or maybe don't even want to compare other Asian's or even other Asian gymnastic team such as Japan who look just as young.

Yes, the rules should be abided by disregarding any circumstances but it's not fair to continuallu assume that China 'cheated'. The allegations are proven false despite any reports. The Olympics have already acknowledged these allegations and dropped them since they are confident and convinced by allowing the Chinese women's gymnastic team to continue their participation in the Olympic gymnastic competition.

The controversy exist because the U.S. media over-scrutinized and over-analyzed the fact that yes, these Chinese team look younger than their competitors. But have gone overboard by continuing coverage of these false allegations without considering that there is a huge possibility that the reports they found as 'proofs' could be false to begin with. In fact, I don't think the media and most people have doubted that the Chinese women's gymnastic team are actually qualified and of age; therefore, their notion/speculation of those girls looking too young could infact be false/wrong. It seems as if the negative press are only to provoke viewers with a certain (and negative) emotion and persepective. When will it end? Hopefully soon because the chances of these allegations of being untrue have been proven by the Olympics and these Chinese women's gymnastic team deserves all the rightful recognition and respect that any other team in the past and future have and will receive.

And no, I don't believe that this controversy/allegations/speculation/rumor has anything to do with any rule anymore but something more.
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Posted 8/15/08
pssh... they're just jelous....
it's just that we look younger than we really are because of the foods we eat or must i say, NOT eat...
still, be greatful of talents, not age...
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Posted 8/15/08

axbabe04u wrote:

Oh okay! Here I go again:


1. Yes, I know the reason why age qualification exist and yes, I think they should decrease it to atleast 14-15 like in the past. I didn't assume anything and it's ridiculous and rather point out the 'what if's or who (Luikin) could have been qualified if the age qualification were changed. From what I've read, you seem to be contradicting your point. First and foremost, you have to consider the fact that this allegations towards the Chinese women's gymnastic team as they are and they're proven false; therefore, you should avoid making your point that Luikin could have been in the Olympics four years ago if this or that (were to) happened. The Age Qualification were already applied four years ago and let's leave it at that. So yes, the reason why Liukin and other gymnist weren't qualified then was because they would have been underaged; in addition, I would rather not emphasize on the 'what ifs' or assume any possibilities that any of the Chinese women's gymnastic teammates are not of age qualification to prove a point. I'm also not arguing or implying anything so I'm quite unsure where you were going with that or what you meant by it....?

Another thing I've noticed from Youtubers is that this notion that being younger and having a better built gymnastic body makes you a better gymnist compared to those who may be a little older and slimmer. I really don't think difference in age (although it does somewhat play a major part depending on the situation or sport) and body type measures talent. Meaning, all is game and fair if a younger and someone who is older compete in a game (yes, in of age qualification, too)--there's been incidents where the older players beat the younger players and vice versa; for example, 41-year-old swimmer, Torres. Body type varies with each individual so I don't really see that an issue in gymnastic. Yes, if you have the right amount of training, physic, and balance to do a vault or an uneven bar then that's great! You don't need a certain amount of muscles to be able to perform a certain routine; although, weight could be an issue to some--an example, Luikin and Yelin are able to do both the uneven bars and vault just as well as Johnson; and some weight gain may result in decrease in performance where Cheng Fei, Chinese women's gymnastic team's leader, had trouble but accomplished through training.

2. Yes, I know that fact and to trust/believe the allegations or not depends on how you view the situations and yes, I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion. In the other hand, I chose to be more optimistic and realistic about the situation and have confidence, along with the Olympics, that these Chinese women's gymnastic team are more than qualified to participate in the Olympic gymnastic competition. Why? For the exact reason that I've pointed out already and repeatedly in this thread.

3. Yes and yes, rules are rules and they should be abided by all times but are they always no. Should the Olympics be strict if these rules are not met? Yes, again. I'm not opposing or favoring these Chinese women's gymnastic team but I do believe that the biased surrounding these allegations are unfair. In addition, you will need to consider what the Olympics are willing to do with this matter and they've clearly mentioned that they will not further investigate these allegations and that they are convinced and confident to allow the Chinese women's gymnastic team to continue their participation in the Olympics gymnastic competitions.

If the Olympics don't see the reason to doubt them, why should we? Is it the intimidation that these girls who look younger than their competitors or maybe it's the possibility that this Chinese team are better than other Olympic gymnastic team including the U.S. team, who were favored to win gold at the team competition?

4. I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. The health of these gymnist should be top priority but with that said, who are we to judge how the Chinese prepare for gymnastics when surely, other parts of this world are not innocent either. It's just that China and their 'gymnastics program' are so highly acknowledged in a rather negative way, too, but because people know about these 'gymnastics program' doesn't mean that China doesn't deserves recognition for their participation in the Olympics. That's just biased, disrespectful, and not to mention against the sake of Olympics.

In addition, the Olympics is to unite the world of sports and to acknowledge accomplisments whether or not a medal were received. I just can't help but realize that biased exist against the Chinese women's gymnastic team and it's unfortunate because the hardwork, dedication, teamwork, talents, and abilities of these young women and the country which they represent (China) are overshadowed by unproven allegations, scrutiny, and disrespect.






* Although the following conversation is from Youtube, the topic relates to this subject. Read it at your own will--either way, it may or may not matter...:



- Youtuber states,

"It's not the fact that China wants to win the most medals ever, it's the means by which they pursue that end. There were several interesting stories on the allegedly mainstream news network: NBC about China's Project 119. They started from the beginning, spotting talent in children at age 3 and seperating them from their families. Then they showed the daily studies(which seemed adequite) and of course the daily excercise(which seemed a bit rigorous for kindergarten).

I am watching a news story on NBC's website. Though I don't agree with the networks blatantly obvious political stance, I know from experience how hard it is to create a video about China, filmed on Chinese soil. Videos are reviewed and scrutinized if they are to be aired on any media medium. It seemed fairly honest to me. By the way, thank you for keeping this argument civilized. Some some with less control have cursed my views with no real argument.

Theirs is a program on par with some those of elite military units. This isn't the spirit of peaceful competition for which the Olympics is held. In layman's terms: "It's psychodic over-achieving for metal disks worth exactly their weight in gold!" I would take pride in my nation simply for fielding athletes who are able to compete at such a level. It's sadly become all about shiney pieces of rare metals...

So I am continueing on another comment. Any ways, They then showed an olympian: Zhao Yonghua who had competed as a skier in winter games. She is 31 now, forced to retire after here body deteriorated and she was found to have untreated diabetes which had almost killed her during her years of training. She spent most of the last decade in bed, and lives off $33 dollars a month in welfare. She said she regrets her athletic career. Yes, these young women deserve gold for the performances they put on, though it is unfortunate if they bent the rules to do so."




- My response,

"Opinions are bound to happen in everything and anything but there is a borderline where people shouldn't cross--discrimination, prejudice, inconsideration, and disrespectful. In fact, noone has the right to belittle any coach when there's no reason to...

I believe China isn't the only victim who are willing to 'by which pursue the end' and to only win gold medals. In fact, that's rather innappropriate for anyone to label them in such negativity. In addition, yes, I am familiar with the media attention regarding the 'gymnastics schools' available in China but somehow, I believed the media over-analyzed and surely edited their documentaries accordingly to their own regulations and to even (blindly) promote a negative perspective of these schools.

You've metioned that the daily studies seemed adequate but not the daily excercise. What was shown is probably a routine which a certain stage or level have been approached and it is heartbreaking to see any child in tears. The thing is that, these documentaries can also be one dimensional and may want to provoke a certain emotion or opinion which most would show a child is in tears during an (unimaginable) situation or due to excessive exercises. Yet, if you look around, you may notice other kids who may not be in the same emotional state and rather in a calm state; although, this may not apply or occur in all documentaries.

In addition, I've always believed that the best way to get a better understanding of how things are done is to experience them first-hand. One day, I would love to visit and stay at a 'gymnastic school' in China for a couple of weeks, if allowed, and form an opinion afterwards. I think it'll be quite an experience and nonetheless, fascinating to see these kids transform over a short and long period of time.

Yes, rules shouldn't be broken and actions should be taken if the allegations are rightfully true. In this case (Chinese women's gymnastic team), it's not so and so is it fair to assume or accuse that it is true and to acknowledge this team of 'cheating' anyway?

Yes, I saw the segment on Zhao Yonghua and her story is truly tragic and unfortunate. I agree with you and China should ensure better care of their athletes after retirement but realistically, all athletes gamble their health and lives to play the sport. Some are unfortunate to have it end so soon and so sudden--it's not fair but that is how it is.

Of course, compared to Zhao it is not likely for other athletes to be so neglected to such an extent and China is definitely far from perfect...."











1. I meant to provide reasons why age was a factor if the Chinese team was underage. My first reason was the physical differences between pubescent and prepubescent athletes. My second reason was that other countries would field better teams as well if they used underage athletes. I merely used Liukin and the US team as an example. My whole point was that age gives you an advantage in gymnastics.
Oh and gymnastics is one of the sports where body type matters the most. That is why most gymnasts are short. They have a lower center of gravity and thus better balance. If body type doesn't matter then we might as well legalize steroids in international competition.

2. The allegations towards the Chinese athletes have not been proven false. There are documents claiming that they are old enough and other documents claiming that they are not. Some of these documents obviously have to be wrong. I find it hard to believe that the Chinese government is so bad at record keeping that they can not keep track of three of their Olympic athletes birthdays. I agree that your belief is optimistic but I don't think that it is realistic.

3. I doubt that the Olympic Committee believes the Chinese team. However there is no way to test for age and they know it. The IOC is not allowed to do anything other than ask for a passport so it would be pointless for them to complain. Anyway I doubt them because there are documents stating that they are under the eligible age and because the Chinese government has lied about their competitors ages in the past.

4. Following the same logic members of the US team should be allowed to use steroids and performance enhancing drugs without being stripped of their medals and nobody should criticize them.
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Posted 8/15/08 , edited 8/15/08
The west just wants to stur up some fire against the chinese...... look at what has happened? tibet? pollution? boycotting?

The west just hates china or even possibly the east asians. And of course i don't refer to all the people living in the 'west'. No matter what happens...... NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, China will always be the bad guy in the eyes of western media.

Look at what is happening in Georgia and Russia, why don't they focus on the more serious issues? or start up protest marches near the russian/polish borders? Why, because they are just a bunch of hympocrites. Hate me or love me, i bet there are americans who can't even locate China on the world map.... just talk about ignorance....

IF YOU ARE AMERICAN AND ANGRY WITH MY POST, OR TRYING TO SAY THAT I AM BULLSHITING WITHOUT EVIDENCE, just get lost with your 'american pride'. I can't be bordered by your reply.

And once again i am really sorry to the people who are of westerned enthincity and who are educated and are truely aware of current affairs. Its not that i hate america, its a land of freedom and i respect that but its just that sometimes "the west and the east don't mix".

God bless America, God bless the world. It's just sometimes, some blacksheeps spoils the whole community on both sides.

P.S I am a Singaporean, not a chinese citizen.
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Posted 8/15/08 , edited 8/15/08
Wall of text critically strikes you for 9,999,999.
You die.




The only reason why America cares so much is because the Chinese beat us. Now we must go through every possible excuse/reason to take their gold medal away from them and give it back to us. Surely, if they got bronze and we got Gold, we couldn't give a damn about it.



Posted 8/15/08 , edited 8/15/08

axbabe04u wrote:


nene817 wrote:

Those girls are clearly underage. And yes, it is important because those are the rules. It doesn't matter how talented they are if they are not following regulations. And gymnastics is a very strenuous sport. To get girls that are not fully developed to participate on the Olympic level can cause negative effects for their growth. There's a reason why there is an age minimum. By 16, most girls have already had their period, and are done growing.




Again, their age allegations were never proven so people should just acknowledge them for their talent rather than the way they look or how young they may look. In fact, I thought they looked too young to be 15-16 too but then, you can't just judge someone (age) by the way or how young they look. It'll be wrong because speaking of experience, some people have thought I'm only 15-17 or 24 when I'm only 22....it changes on my mood, the time of day, or the way I dress. hahah

Anyway, if people are so worried about puberty and gymnastics, then why is it okay for gymnastics during middle school? It's one of those icky topics but I'm contempt with how they run things now...it could always get better and I believe they should atleast lower the age qualification to 14 but I highly doubt it will change anytime soon.


I never said they weren't talented, I think quite the opposite. But I highly doubt that those girls are all at least 16. And of course those allegations are going to be difficult to prove, but you can't say that they are completely false either. Plus, middle school gymnastics isn't even comparable to Olympic gymnastics. The training for Olympic gymnastics is tough enough to stop your periods or make your breast shrink, etc., so of course that's very bad for your health, especially for people who haven't fully developed. Therefore, the age shouldn't be lowered. There's always the Youth Olympics. Those girls are very talented, yes. But I think their health is way more important than giving China a few more gold medals. And just in case you say it's because China won or that I wouldn't be saying this if it was America, you would be quite wrong. I haven't been angry at China beating the US in events (of course I'm rooting for America, but I won't curse China if they are the better athletes, ex. the men's gymnastics team). And if America won a medal and seemed to have an underage competitor, I would be extremely disappointed and would be discussing it in a thread like this too.
Posted 8/15/08
It doesnt matter how young u are as long as u have a heart for Gymnastics it doesnt matter....
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Posted 8/15/08 , edited 8/15/08

EROSORE wrote:

1. I meant to provide reasons why age was a factor if the Chinese team was underage. My first reason was the physical differences between pubescent and prepubescent athletes. My second reason was that other countries would field better teams as well if they used underage athletes. I merely used Liukin and the US team as an example. My whole point was that age gives you an advantage in gymnastics.
Oh and gymnastics is one of the sports where body type matters the most. That is why most gymnasts are short. They have a lower center of gravity and thus better balance. If body type doesn't matter then we might as well legalize steroids in international competition.

2. The allegations towards the Chinese athletes have not been proven false. There are documents claiming that they are old enough and other documents claiming that they are not. Some of these documents obviously have to be wrong. I find it hard to believe that the Chinese government is so bad at record keeping that they can not keep track of three of their Olympic athletes birthdays. I agree that your belief is optimistic but I don't think that it is realistic.

3. I doubt that the Olympic Committee believes the Chinese team. However there is no way to test for age and they know it. The IOC is not allowed to do anything other than ask for a passport so it would be pointless for them to complain. Anyway I doubt them because there are documents stating that they are under the eligible age and because the Chinese government has lied about their competitors ages in the past.

4. Following the same logic members of the US team should be allowed to use steroids and performance enhancing drugs without being stripped of their medals and nobody should criticize them.





1. Yes, but my point is that since these allegations are already (and technically) proven false, is there a reason to consider the 'what if's? So not emphasizing on how these Chinese team may not be of age, the discussion of having younger athletes is a different topic. The body type issue I was speaking of is that some believe that you need to look a certain way to be considered a gymnist. For example, some have said "well Johnson and Luikin look like gymnist" and I never thought there was a certain way a gymnist must look...

About the puberty and gymnist being relatively short then the average is a known fact and I'm not arguing that and I'm very much anti-steroids! There's no question about that!

2. They are techinically proven false according to the Olympics and they don't feel the need to further investigate these allegations. Meaning, they are confident enough to allow the Chinese women's gymnastic team to compete; whereas, if they felt that the Chinese didn't have the required proof, then I think they would have acted on it by making some drastic changes. What changes? Who really knows. And these documents you speak of are found online and I'm not very optimistic in believing anything that's written in the internet considering people always misprint something...

In addition, everyone always have to blame someone or an authority. This time, I've noticed that people highlight the fact that China is considered a 'communist' country and because of the negativity that do surround it, people may automatically assume that they had something to do with it. I'm not denying that they did or that they forged those passports or any documents either. Realististically speaking, I'm not looking into the 'what if' or considering the 'online' documents/reports reliable or even valid. For all we know, it could have been an innocent or delibrate typo that someone did to upset the Olympics. Who knows but so many things online have hidden agendas so I'd rather not believe everything that is said in that 'report'.

3. --#2--

4. I'm completely anti-steroids and there's no way to change my mind where I would think in anyway that those who use it shouldn't be rightfully punished by the Olympic committe--possibly, strip them off their title and/or banned them (the user and those involved) in that particular sport where steroids was used for one Olympic.



My point is that there is absolutely no way for anyone to really prove that the Chinese girls are afterall underaged so what would be the point of doing further investigation and if still proven false, is it worth further scrutinize the gymnastic team and its country? What I think needs to be done is that the Olympics will need to be more strict about the Age Qualification in the near future and avoid misunderstands and allegations like these from happening.

So do I think all these allegations against the Chinese team still unfair? YES! And the U.S. media has no intention on backing off this issue and it's ridiculous because it overshadows all the other things. I feel sorry for these Chinese gymnastics team because it seems like their hard work and determination are not highlighted because people still believe that they look young; therefore, they can't be 16 or of age qualification. There's this biased and non-stop scrutiny that it's so unfair! This should be the time where the Chinese could celebrate and have pride in their accomplishment with ease and welcome but not the exact opposite where people question their intention.

Honestly, it's doesnt seem like it's still about whether or not these allegations are actually true or false. It's more like people wanting to prove that they're right and wanting the chance to say, "I told you so!"

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Posted 8/15/08
they're not underage.
just cause they're asians
doesn't mean you can say
they're underage man!!
sorry, but us asians do look
young. it's a gift! what can i
say! lol. = P

they trained just as hard
as any other team did.
they sure deserve it!!
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Posted 8/15/08
Looks like this will be an unpopular post, but oh well. The Chinese government is cheating, plain as day. One moment a girl was born in '93, the next, it's '92. The girls broke the rules by competing at too young an age, and should have their medals stripped as surely as that of an athlete using steroids.

The Olympic Committee should investigate.
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Posted 8/15/08

nene817 wrote:


axbabe04u wrote:


nene817 wrote:

Those girls are clearly underage. And yes, it is important because those are the rules. It doesn't matter how talented they are if they are not following regulations. And gymnastics is a very strenuous sport. To get girls that are not fully developed to participate on the Olympic level can cause negative effects for their growth. There's a reason why there is an age minimum. By 16, most girls have already had their period, and are done growing.




Again, their age allegations were never proven so people should just acknowledge them for their talent rather than the way they look or how young they may look. In fact, I thought they looked too young to be 15-16 too but then, you can't just judge someone (age) by the way or how young they look. It'll be wrong because speaking of experience, some people have thought I'm only 15-17 or 24 when I'm only 22....it changes on my mood, the time of day, or the way I dress. hahah

Anyway, if people are so worried about puberty and gymnastics, then why is it okay for gymnastics during middle school? It's one of those icky topics but I'm contempt with how they run things now...it could always get better and I believe they should atleast lower the age qualification to 14 but I highly doubt it will change anytime soon.


I never said they weren't talented, I think quite the opposite. But I highly doubt that those girls are all at least 16. And of course those allegations are going to be difficult to prove, but you can't say that they are completely false either. Plus, middle school gymnastics isn't even comparable to Olympic gymnastics. The training for Olympic gymnastics is tough enough to stop your periods or make your breast shrink, etc., so of course that's very bad for your health, especially for people who haven't fully developed. Therefore, the age shouldn't be lowered. There's always the Youth Olympics. Those girls are very talented, yes. But I think their health is way more important than giving China a few more gold medals. And just in case you say it's because China won or that I wouldn't be saying this if it was America, you would be quite wrong. I haven't been angry at China beating the US in events (of course I'm rooting for America, but I won't curse China if they are the better athletes, ex. the men's gymnastics team). And if America won a medal and seemed to have an underage competitor, I would be extremely disappointed and would be discussing it in a thread like this too.



I've already posted a reply but somehow it didn't post it. (sigh) hahah

I'll repeat again, I will not believe or think there is truth in the allegations despite so called documents or reports. I'll admit my fault when there's valid official proff that these girls are in fact underaged; otherwise, I stand by all my points. I'm too tired right now to rewrite everything that I thought posted already. hahah

To be clear, I don't attack someone by saying "If America won the gold then blah blah" but I do think that if China did not get the gold, this situation and the allegations would be much calmer. Just when I thought that Luikin winning the gold would atleast slow racist and biased comments but that's actualy untrue. I've noticed that some post are questioning the judging from the all-around. What matters is that the deserved gymnist received their medals as they should! Why call the judges biased now? It seems that people are always going to find reasons against the Chinese in any shape or form...

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with Youth Olympics and by all means, more people should try to qualify in them because it's a great opportunity! And yes, if the situation were switched between the USA and the Chinese except if there were actually official proven proof of a gymnist being underaged, this thread would still exist and I would still believe that the Chinese team would still be my newfound favorite.

Okay, I'm off for my nap! Soo tired! hahah

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