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YOUR RESPONSE: Olympics Women's Gymnastics - China Too Under-aged?
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Posted 8/15/08

axbabe04u wrote:


EROSORE wrote:

1. I meant to provide reasons why age was a factor if the Chinese team was underage. My first reason was the physical differences between pubescent and prepubescent athletes. My second reason was that other countries would field better teams as well if they used underage athletes. I merely used Liukin and the US team as an example. My whole point was that age gives you an advantage in gymnastics.
Oh and gymnastics is one of the sports where body type matters the most. That is why most gymnasts are short. They have a lower center of gravity and thus better balance. If body type doesn't matter then we might as well legalize steroids in international competition.

2. The allegations towards the Chinese athletes have not been proven false. There are documents claiming that they are old enough and other documents claiming that they are not. Some of these documents obviously have to be wrong. I find it hard to believe that the Chinese government is so bad at record keeping that they can not keep track of three of their Olympic athletes birthdays. I agree that your belief is optimistic but I don't think that it is realistic.

3. I doubt that the Olympic Committee believes the Chinese team. However there is no way to test for age and they know it. The IOC is not allowed to do anything other than ask for a passport so it would be pointless for them to complain. Anyway I doubt them because there are documents stating that they are under the eligible age and because the Chinese government has lied about their competitors ages in the past.

4. Following the same logic members of the US team should be allowed to use steroids and performance enhancing drugs without being stripped of their medals and nobody should criticize them.





1. Yes, but my point is that since these allegations are already (and technically) proven false, is there a reason to consider the 'what if's? So not emphasizing on how these Chinese team may not be of age, the discussion of having younger athletes is a different topic. The body type issue I was speaking of is that some believe that you need to look a certain way to be considered a gymnist. For example, some have said "well Johnson and Luikin look like gymnist" and I never thought there was a certain way a gymnist must look...

About the puberty and gymnist being relatively short then the average is a known fact and I'm not arguing that and I'm very much anti-steroids! There's no question about that!

2. They are techinically proven false according to the Olympics and they don't feel the need to further investigate these allegations. Meaning, they are confident enough to allow the Chinese women's gymnastic team to compete; whereas, if they felt that the Chinese didn't have the required proof, then I think they would have acted on it by making some drastic changes. What changes? Who really knows. And these documents you speak of are found online and I'm not very optimistic in believing anything that's written in the internet considering people always misprint something...

In addition, everyone always have to blame someone or an authority. This time, I've noticed that people highlight the fact that China is considered a 'communist' country and because of the negativity that do surround it, people may automatically assume that they had something to do with it. I'm not denying that they did or that they forged those passports or any documents either. Realististically speaking, I'm not looking into the 'what if' or considering the 'online' documents/reports reliable or even valid. For all we know, it could have been an innocent or delibrate typo that someone did to upset the Olympics. Who knows but so many things online have hidden agendas so I'd rather not believe everything that is said in that 'report'.

3. --#2--

4. I'm completely anti-steroids and there's no way to change my mind where I would think in anyway that those who use it shouldn't be rightfully punished by the Olympic committe--possibly, strip them off their title and/or banned them (the user and those involved) in that particular sport where steroids was used for one Olympic.



My point is that there is absolutely no way for anyone to really prove that the Chinese girls are afterall underaged so what would be the point of doing further investigation and if still proven false, is it worth further scrutinize the gymnastic team and its country? What I think needs to be done is that the Olympics will need to be more strict about the Age Qualification in the near future and avoid misunderstands and allegations like these from happening.

So do I think all these allegations against the Chinese team still unfair? YES! And the U.S. media has no intention on backing off this issue and it's ridiculous because it overshadows all the other things. I feel sorry for these Chinese gymnastics team because it seems like their hard work and determination are not highlighted because people still believe that they look young; therefore, they can't be 16 or of age qualification. There's this biased and non-stop scrutiny that it's so unfair! This should be the time where the Chinese could celebrate and have pride in their accomplishment with ease and welcome but not the exact opposite where people question their intention.

Honestly, it's doesnt seem like it's still about whether or not these allegations are actually true or false. It's more like people wanting to prove that they're right and wanting the chance to say, "I told you so!"



This is technically a meaningless argument because nothing can be proved. You believe that their passports are accurate and I believe those other documents are accurate. I don't think that we are going to agree about this but a few things are still bothering me. The first is that you wrote that the allegations were proven false. This is not true. There is no way to prove age. A passport cannot be taken as proof of anything and that is all that the Olympic Committee is allowed to ask for. I don't distrust the Chinese government because they are communist but because they have a history of falsifying documents for athletes. As a practical issue I don't think that the Olympic Committee can actually do anything about this. What really bothers me is the perversion of the Olympic Games integrity and moral standards.
On a side note I don't think the Chinese team should face less scrutiny. If you want them to be freed of all suspicion then they should be scrutinized and researched by a third party. If they are doing nothing wrong then everyone should be able to see it.
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Posted 8/15/08

EROSORE wrote:


axbabe04u wrote:


EROSORE wrote:

1. I meant to provide reasons why age was a factor if the Chinese team was underage. My first reason was the physical differences between pubescent and prepubescent athletes. My second reason was that other countries would field better teams as well if they used underage athletes. I merely used Liukin and the US team as an example. My whole point was that age gives you an advantage in gymnastics.
Oh and gymnastics is one of the sports where body type matters the most. That is why most gymnasts are short. They have a lower center of gravity and thus better balance. If body type doesn't matter then we might as well legalize steroids in international competition.

2. The allegations towards the Chinese athletes have not been proven false. There are documents claiming that they are old enough and other documents claiming that they are not. Some of these documents obviously have to be wrong. I find it hard to believe that the Chinese government is so bad at record keeping that they can not keep track of three of their Olympic athletes birthdays. I agree that your belief is optimistic but I don't think that it is realistic.

3. I doubt that the Olympic Committee believes the Chinese team. However there is no way to test for age and they know it. The IOC is not allowed to do anything other than ask for a passport so it would be pointless for them to complain. Anyway I doubt them because there are documents stating that they are under the eligible age and because the Chinese government has lied about their competitors ages in the past.

4. Following the same logic members of the US team should be allowed to use steroids and performance enhancing drugs without being stripped of their medals and nobody should criticize them.





1. Yes, but my point is that since these allegations are already (and technically) proven false, is there a reason to consider the 'what if's? So not emphasizing on how these Chinese team may not be of age, the discussion of having younger athletes is a different topic. The body type issue I was speaking of is that some believe that you need to look a certain way to be considered a gymnist. For example, some have said "well Johnson and Luikin look like gymnist" and I never thought there was a certain way a gymnist must look...

About the puberty and gymnist being relatively short then the average is a known fact and I'm not arguing that and I'm very much anti-steroids! There's no question about that!

2. They are techinically proven false according to the Olympics and they don't feel the need to further investigate these allegations. Meaning, they are confident enough to allow the Chinese women's gymnastic team to compete; whereas, if they felt that the Chinese didn't have the required proof, then I think they would have acted on it by making some drastic changes. What changes? Who really knows. And these documents you speak of are found online and I'm not very optimistic in believing anything that's written in the internet considering people always misprint something...

In addition, everyone always have to blame someone or an authority. This time, I've noticed that people highlight the fact that China is considered a 'communist' country and because of the negativity that do surround it, people may automatically assume that they had something to do with it. I'm not denying that they did or that they forged those passports or any documents either. Realististically speaking, I'm not looking into the 'what if' or considering the 'online' documents/reports reliable or even valid. For all we know, it could have been an innocent or delibrate typo that someone did to upset the Olympics. Who knows but so many things online have hidden agendas so I'd rather not believe everything that is said in that 'report'.

3. --#2--

4. I'm completely anti-steroids and there's no way to change my mind where I would think in anyway that those who use it shouldn't be rightfully punished by the Olympic committe--possibly, strip them off their title and/or banned them (the user and those involved) in that particular sport where steroids was used for one Olympic.



My point is that there is absolutely no way for anyone to really prove that the Chinese girls are afterall underaged so what would be the point of doing further investigation and if still proven false, is it worth further scrutinize the gymnastic team and its country? What I think needs to be done is that the Olympics will need to be more strict about the Age Qualification in the near future and avoid misunderstands and allegations like these from happening.

So do I think all these allegations against the Chinese team still unfair? YES! And the U.S. media has no intention on backing off this issue and it's ridiculous because it overshadows all the other things. I feel sorry for these Chinese gymnastics team because it seems like their hard work and determination are not highlighted because people still believe that they look young; therefore, they can't be 16 or of age qualification. There's this biased and non-stop scrutiny that it's so unfair! This should be the time where the Chinese could celebrate and have pride in their accomplishment with ease and welcome but not the exact opposite where people question their intention.

Honestly, it's doesnt seem like it's still about whether or not these allegations are actually true or false. It's more like people wanting to prove that they're right and wanting the chance to say, "I told you so!"



This is technically a meaningless argument because nothing can be proved. You believe that their passports are accurate and I believe those other documents are accurate. I don't think that we are going to agree about this but a few things are still bothering me. The first is that you wrote that the allegations were proven false. This is not true. There is no way to prove age. A passport cannot be taken as proof of anything and that is all that the Olympic Committee is allowed to ask for. I don't distrust the Chinese government because they are communist but because they have a history of falsifying documents for athletes. As a practical issue I don't think that the Olympic Committee can actually do anything about this. What really bothers me is the perversion of the Olympic Games integrity and moral standards.
On a side note I don't think the Chinese team should face less scrutiny. If you want them to be freed of all suspicion then they should be scrutinized and researched by a third party. If they are doing nothing wrong then everyone should be able to see it.


i agree.

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Posted 8/15/08
It doesnt matter what others say, just do what you need to do and make yourself proud =]

GOO CHiNA~~
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Posted 8/15/08
I am not sure about all of the details, but didn't all this start because two of the girls were seen in a past event not too long ago and their ages were like 13 or 14? Also I think both China and Romania admitted in the past to falsifying gymnasts' ages.

So of course people are going to have some doubts about the validity of these girls ages, especially if you have priors.

I will say what's done is done though. The IOC has no intention of furthering the investigation, so this can be considered case closed. They did say that they plan on implimenting a better process and record keeping of the different events leading up to the games to avoid this sort of thing in the future.

By the way America lost because of Sacramone. You can't make that many mistakes and expect to win the gold, they are lucky they got any medals at all.
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Posted 8/15/08

EROSORE wrote:


axbabe04u wrote:


EROSORE wrote:

1. I meant to provide reasons why age was a factor if the Chinese team was underage. My first reason was the physical differences between pubescent and prepubescent athletes. My second reason was that other countries would field better teams as well if they used underage athletes. I merely used Liukin and the US team as an example. My whole point was that age gives you an advantage in gymnastics.
Oh and gymnastics is one of the sports where body type matters the most. That is why most gymnasts are short. They have a lower center of gravity and thus better balance. If body type doesn't matter then we might as well legalize steroids in international competition.

2. The allegations towards the Chinese athletes have not been proven false. There are documents claiming that they are old enough and other documents claiming that they are not. Some of these documents obviously have to be wrong. I find it hard to believe that the Chinese government is so bad at record keeping that they can not keep track of three of their Olympic athletes birthdays. I agree that your belief is optimistic but I don't think that it is realistic.

3. I doubt that the Olympic Committee believes the Chinese team. However there is no way to test for age and they know it. The IOC is not allowed to do anything other than ask for a passport so it would be pointless for them to complain. Anyway I doubt them because there are documents stating that they are under the eligible age and because the Chinese government has lied about their competitors ages in the past.

4. Following the same logic members of the US team should be allowed to use steroids and performance enhancing drugs without being stripped of their medals and nobody should criticize them.





1. Yes, but my point is that since these allegations are already (and technically) proven false, is there a reason to consider the 'what if's? So not emphasizing on how these Chinese team may not be of age, the discussion of having younger athletes is a different topic. The body type issue I was speaking of is that some believe that you need to look a certain way to be considered a gymnist. For example, some have said "well Johnson and Luikin look like gymnist" and I never thought there was a certain way a gymnist must look...

About the puberty and gymnist being relatively short then the average is a known fact and I'm not arguing that and I'm very much anti-steroids! There's no question about that!

2. They are techinically proven false according to the Olympics and they don't feel the need to further investigate these allegations. Meaning, they are confident enough to allow the Chinese women's gymnastic team to compete; whereas, if they felt that the Chinese didn't have the required proof, then I think they would have acted on it by making some drastic changes. What changes? Who really knows. And these documents you speak of are found online and I'm not very optimistic in believing anything that's written in the internet considering people always misprint something...

In addition, everyone always have to blame someone or an authority. This time, I've noticed that people highlight the fact that China is considered a 'communist' country and because of the negativity that do surround it, people may automatically assume that they had something to do with it. I'm not denying that they did or that they forged those passports or any documents either. Realististically speaking, I'm not looking into the 'what if' or considering the 'online' documents/reports reliable or even valid. For all we know, it could have been an innocent or delibrate typo that someone did to upset the Olympics. Who knows but so many things online have hidden agendas so I'd rather not believe everything that is said in that 'report'.

3. --#2--

4. I'm completely anti-steroids and there's no way to change my mind where I would think in anyway that those who use it shouldn't be rightfully punished by the Olympic committe--possibly, strip them off their title and/or banned them (the user and those involved) in that particular sport where steroids was used for one Olympic.



My point is that there is absolutely no way for anyone to really prove that the Chinese girls are afterall underaged so what would be the point of doing further investigation and if still proven false, is it worth further scrutinize the gymnastic team and its country? What I think needs to be done is that the Olympics will need to be more strict about the Age Qualification in the near future and avoid misunderstands and allegations like these from happening.

So do I think all these allegations against the Chinese team still unfair? YES! And the U.S. media has no intention on backing off this issue and it's ridiculous because it overshadows all the other things. I feel sorry for these Chinese gymnastics team because it seems like their hard work and determination are not highlighted because people still believe that they look young; therefore, they can't be 16 or of age qualification. There's this biased and non-stop scrutiny that it's so unfair! This should be the time where the Chinese could celebrate and have pride in their accomplishment with ease and welcome but not the exact opposite where people question their intention.

Honestly, it's doesnt seem like it's still about whether or not these allegations are actually true or false. It's more like people wanting to prove that they're right and wanting the chance to say, "I told you so!"



This is technically a meaningless argument because nothing can be proved. You believe that their passports are accurate and I believe those other documents are accurate. I don't think that we are going to agree about this but a few things are still bothering me. The first is that you wrote that the allegations were proven false. This is not true. There is no way to prove age. A passport cannot be taken as proof of anything and that is all that the Olympic Committee is allowed to ask for. I don't distrust the Chinese government because they are communist but because they have a history of falsifying documents for athletes. As a practical issue I don't think that the Olympic Committee can actually do anything about this. What really bothers me is the perversion of the Olympic Games integrity and moral standards.
On a side note I don't think the Chinese team should face less scrutiny. If you want them to be freed of all suspicion then they should be scrutinized and researched by a third party. If they are doing nothing wrong then everyone should be able to see it.





Yes, our disagreeements tend to go in circles. hahah Anyway, the allegations were proven false according to the Olympics. I trust their decision even more so since they have seen the passports. Everyone else can only assume...yes, there is no way to prove age and it's definitely not by looking at someone's appearance. We've both could agree on that.

The Chinese aren't scrutinized in compare and contrast format but rather in a negative way. The media hasn't doubted that these girls can actually be 16 so I believe that their minds are already made up and I really don't think they'll ever give the Chinese team a benefit of a doubt. And by the way things are going and with the biased against the Chinese team, I highly doubt they would be freed from suspicion anytime soon either, that is if they'd ever see the day where allegation are completely dropped. I wouldn't be surprise if they'll go down the Olympics gymnastics history as 'the team who won gold in the midst of controversy'. Too bad that now it seems that they'd have to live by that title...
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Posted 8/15/08 , edited 8/15/08

axbabe04u wrote:

Personally, I don't expect a reply from the article's writer but I surely hope he acknowledges my response to his article!










[sorry i shortened this considerably]
being a gymnast myself, being that small has QUITE the advantages.
imagine being shawn johnson, she has MUCH more to lug around than little 68 pound girls.
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Posted 8/15/08
it should have been investigated much further given that China has done such things in the past. simple government issued Documents should not be enough when they are easily faked
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Posted 8/15/08

axbabe04u wrote:


YonNobul wrote:


axbabe04u wrote:


YonNobul wrote:


h4x0rz wrote:


wonone wrote:

Yeah but even proof won't work, the proplem is they think china faked those id's.Which is something most americans want to believe very much.

The number of critics are just unbelievable.I don't think anyone will know the truth apart from china.


some people are trying to make this look like some epic Democracy vs Communism battle instead of a quadrennial event to promote unity and sportsmanship that is.


Nobody but the ones trying to deflect are saying its a battle between Democracy and Communism. This is a battle against rampant corruption in China and the Olympic committee in general.

Ignorance has also made this debate thrive further. Most people don't even know the minimum age required is to be 16 in 2008 as I pointed out that ignorance in a previous post.

It is not about who is better at gymnastics or not. This is a moral battle and China if proven would be dishonoring themselves as host of the Olympics.




People are so ignorant to believe that China is a Communist country and excuse it by saying they are corrupted. You admitted that there IS no proof of China fabricating the passport, yet, you're more than confident to say they did. Contracdicting, isnt? I'd rather be more optimistic and realistic about this situation and disregard the assumptions. And this issue about the age qualification has been going on for years especially in gymnastics. Even USA had a 14 year old gymnist and the USA team won gold that year, too, but no such controversy was ever made...

And you know what? Let's just enjoy the games as it is and keep the competitions in the Olympics game between the gymnist now. As some may say that 'China cheated', which doesn't make sense how or if solid proof were ever revealed', the competition is shown on TV where people should try to judge more on their talents and ability for their country rather than other distractions.

Why is there a conversation about Georgia VS Russia?




*cough*

The rule for 16 and over was enacted the year after USA won gold in 1997 with the fourteen year-old so that is why no controversy was ever made. I also would like to make further comment that I myself have not directly said that China's gymnast are underage, but I defended other people's right to criticize. As for evidence of corruption in China, any evidence is circumstancial just like global warming and many people believe in global warming don't they. Half the fun in watching Olympics is the controversies. Ah youngsters, *sigh*.....

Why is there a conversation about Georgia VS Russia?

I don't know. I didn't even bring it up. I just answered the conversation moved that way.






Yes, I know what the age qualification rule was 15 at the time when Kerri Strug competed at 14 in the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona and when Moceano was 14 when she partcipated in the 1996 Olympics. My point is that those were knowingly facts by the Olympics and its viewers but even understand the fact that it was okay then considering those girls turned 15 that same year they participated at 14, is there always favor with the U.S. Meaning, China is in a bit the same situation yet highly accused (esp. by the U.S. media) and scrutinized for only looking younger than 16 which isn't much of an argument in the first place because 16-year-olds don't look the same or have to in other parts of the world.

In addition, some Asian women ARE smaller and shorter than the average person and I'm not sure if this was ever thought of but the Japanese gymnastic team look about the same as the Chinese gymnastics team. So why are the Japanese not occused of looking younger than 16? Maybe its because they're not the Chinese and they did not win gold. Is it safe to say that? Corruption in China is not new and other gov't are just as corrupted or worst...the difference is that some gov't have a better way of covering their tracks than some. And you can't possibly support the assumption that the Chinese gov't must've forged the passports because they are already have a corrupted gov't. I would believe that the Olympics are well-aware of it and have looked into it but again, they have no reason to doubt them or the Chinese gymnastic team; therefore, they have dropped all allegations.

If controversies is what you look for in an Olympic, fine...be it but don't look for it or believe that controversies are true when unproven only for the 'fun' of it. Unlike you and what makes you and I different is that I watch the Olympics because it's interesting to see the world match against each other. It's not about who's the best in the world or who wins the most medals, it's about the idea of the world uniting for a little bit even if it's for the sake of sport.

And as for the topic regarding Georgia VS Russia deserves it's own thread. :)


There is circumstancial evidence. If you even have an open mind, read the article.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=dw-gymnastsage081408&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

I am not saying at all that it is true. I am just saying that it is something worth investigating. The best thing for the Chinese to do if they are innocent is be the least defensive about it and rather than squashing opposition provide more proof or just shut up and let it wash over.

As for your personal attacks, I will not engage in word warfare. I look only at evidence and reactions to find the truth. Olympics is about fun, but if people engage in underhanded dealings then there is no more fun. Nobody would take it in the World Cup. I feel sad for the people cheated. Nobody should accept it here.
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Posted 8/15/08

tongiethao wrote:

they're not underage.
just cause they're asians
doesn't mean you can say
they're underage man!!
sorry, but us asians do look
young. it's a gift! what can i
say! lol. = P

they trained just as hard
as any other team did.
they sure deserve it!!


I think I read somewhere on yahoo, there was proof that China did fake this one girl's ID.
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Posted 8/15/08 , edited 8/15/08

YonNobul wrote:


axbabe04u wrote:


YonNobul wrote:


axbabe04u wrote:


YonNobul wrote:


h4x0rz wrote:


wonone wrote:

Yeah but even proof won't work, the proplem is they think china faked those id's.Which is something most americans want to believe very much.

The number of critics are just unbelievable.I don't think anyone will know the truth apart from china.


some people are trying to make this look like some epic Democracy vs Communism battle instead of a quadrennial event to promote unity and sportsmanship that is.


Nobody but the ones trying to deflect are saying its a battle between Democracy and Communism. This is a battle against rampant corruption in China and the Olympic committee in general.

Ignorance has also made this debate thrive further. Most people don't even know the minimum age required is to be 16 in 2008 as I pointed out that ignorance in a previous post.

It is not about who is better at gymnastics or not. This is a moral battle and China if proven would be dishonoring themselves as host of the Olympics.




People are so ignorant to believe that China is a Communist country and excuse it by saying they are corrupted. You admitted that there IS no proof of China fabricating the passport, yet, you're more than confident to say they did. Contracdicting, isnt? I'd rather be more optimistic and realistic about this situation and disregard the assumptions. And this issue about the age qualification has been going on for years especially in gymnastics. Even USA had a 14 year old gymnist and the USA team won gold that year, too, but no such controversy was ever made...

And you know what? Let's just enjoy the games as it is and keep the competitions in the Olympics game between the gymnist now. As some may say that 'China cheated', which doesn't make sense how or if solid proof were ever revealed', the competition is shown on TV where people should try to judge more on their talents and ability for their country rather than other distractions.

Why is there a conversation about Georgia VS Russia?




*cough*

The rule for 16 and over was enacted the year after USA won gold in 1997 with the fourteen year-old so that is why no controversy was ever made. I also would like to make further comment that I myself have not directly said that China's gymnast are underage, but I defended other people's right to criticize. As for evidence of corruption in China, any evidence is circumstancial just like global warming and many people believe in global warming don't they. Half the fun in watching Olympics is the controversies. Ah youngsters, *sigh*.....

Why is there a conversation about Georgia VS Russia?

I don't know. I didn't even bring it up. I just answered the conversation moved that way.






Yes, I know what the age qualification rule was 15 at the time when Kerri Strug competed at 14 in the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona and when Moceano was 14 when she partcipated in the 1996 Olympics. My point is that those were knowingly facts by the Olympics and its viewers but even understand the fact that it was okay then considering those girls turned 15 that same year they participated at 14, is there always favor with the U.S. Meaning, China is in a bit the same situation yet highly accused (esp. by the U.S. media) and scrutinized for only looking younger than 16 which isn't much of an argument in the first place because 16-year-olds don't look the same or have to in other parts of the world.

In addition, some Asian women ARE smaller and shorter than the average person and I'm not sure if this was ever thought of but the Japanese gymnastic team look about the same as the Chinese gymnastics team. So why are the Japanese not occused of looking younger than 16? Maybe its because they're not the Chinese and they did not win gold. Is it safe to say that? Corruption in China is not new and other gov't are just as corrupted or worst...the difference is that some gov't have a better way of covering their tracks than some. And you can't possibly support the assumption that the Chinese gov't must've forged the passports because they are already have a corrupted gov't. I would believe that the Olympics are well-aware of it and have looked into it but again, they have no reason to doubt them or the Chinese gymnastic team; therefore, they have dropped all allegations.

If controversies is what you look for in an Olympic, fine...be it but don't look for it or believe that controversies are true when unproven only for the 'fun' of it. Unlike you and what makes you and I different is that I watch the Olympics because it's interesting to see the world match against each other. It's not about who's the best in the world or who wins the most medals, it's about the idea of the world uniting for a little bit even if it's for the sake of sport.

And as for the topic regarding Georgia VS Russia deserves it's own thread. :)


There is circumstancial evidence. If you even have an open mind, read the article.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=dw-gymnastsage081408&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

I am not saying at all that it is true. I am just saying that it is something worth investigating. The best thing for the Chinese to do if they are innocent is be the least defensive about it and rather than squashing opposition provide more proof or just shut up and let it wash over.

As for your personal attacks, I will not engage in word warfare. I look only at evidence and reactions to find the truth. Olympics is about fun, but if people engage in underhanded dealings then there is no more fun. Nobody would take it in the World Cup. I feel sad for the people cheated. Nobody should accept it here.




Wow, I think people are completely misunderstanding me now or is it because I'm dealing with a cold now? hahah Yes, by all means, if in fact the Chinese lied about the passport then the Olympics should rightfully take actions. I'm not arguing that or do I support cheating or steroids used in any sports. But are these investigation even worthwhile? Investigate if they must but I believe people should just move on. I don't like how these speculations and allegations are getting in the way of the game and sportmanship. I've always watched the Olympics because I find it fascinating when the world go against each other--not for the heck of winning the gold, but for the love of the game/sport!

With that said, call me wanting to be a little indenial or maybe just too optimistic but I would rather not believe that the Chinese gymnastic team are underage for now and not judge them because of these allegations but rather what they do inside of the gymnastic arena against the USA and the world. I don't want to become bitter or biased towards any of the Olympics team either. The investigation is up to the Olympics and whether they do or not doesn't really concern me right now--and again, I don't support those who cheats. I used to be an athlete, too, so I know how serious it is and how dissappointing it is when someone cheats when the game should be played fair; although, I still stand by my previous posts!

What personal attacks are you talking about? Don't be offended by them or were they meant to take by heart.

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axbabe04u wrote:


Incontrovertible wrote:

Red - Talent and determination is not age based so that comment is basically worthless.

About the talent before age shit. Nadal was practicing tennis by the age of 4 and he didn't turn pro until he was 18. There are still prereqs that should be met no matter how talented or great the athlete.

Asians look younger yes, but not like they're fucking 9-11. There is NO way in hell they should be that tiny. Also this fact tends to play a factor when Asians get older not when they are still trying to hit their first growth spurt.

Also girls hit puberty at like 9 or 12... I forgot the exact age when they "should" hit it.

The age factor is a big issue because it determines the athletes bodily maturity. Its a lot easier to spin and do flips when you're 10 than when you're 16-17.

Just because someone is older doesn't make it easier for them. Thats like saying when Pete Sampras was 30 he should be able to beat a 24 year old Federer because hes older.

Patrick Ryan's views are soooo on point.

Just a random question, but are you Chinese?





Um, to answer your first question...no, I'm not Chinese but Asian-American. You know what? You are fine with your opinion, good for you but respect mine, too. Without being defensive, it IS possible to be that tiny at 16. Why not?! People have different body types and it grows differently with each individuals especially those in sports such as gymnastics. I'm not questioning that...it's true fact!

First of all, the girls are not 10...they are infact between 15-20 so the comparison you made between a 10 year old to a 16-17 is not really something to argue about. As far as when puberty hits, you are definitely wrong because it's different with each individual. From experience, I hit puberty at 13 while I know people who have at 14-15 and we turned out pretty normal.

In addition, I never questioned age and whether or not their athleticism is better than the other. I agree with you, age has nothing to do with how athletic someone is! I've actually opposed that argument with a user on Youtube where his believed that the younger you are, the better of an athlete. That's biased and rather wrong because for example, swimmer Torres is 41 year old and still managed to win gold against those who were younger than her.


That made me lol a little bit, the red part that is.

Why can't they be that tiny? I believe I just stated the reasons earlier. The girls are supposedly 16. I don't know any girls who are at the tallest what? 4'7? For a 16 year old? Thats complete and utter crap EVEN if they are Asian.

Even if it was possible to have a whole team of little kids is quite unbelievable for all of them to be 16.

Blue - So the article link that was posted earlier was complete bullshit?

Athleticism and talent are two different words. I said talent has no age barriers not athleticism.

Also being younger has advantages and it normally DOES make you a better athlete, its not biased or wrong. Torres may have won at 41 years old, but how many times can she repeat that? Being younger gives you a chance to become faster and stronger while you're body is still able to keep up rather than having an aging body.

Its like comparing Chicago Bull's Michael Jordan to the Wizard's Michael Jordan.
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Posted 8/15/08 , edited 8/17/08
An interesting excerpt interview with 1996 Gymnastic Magnificent Seven Gold Medalist, Dominque Dawes that I highly agree with!:


- Question 1:

Do you think now that the Chinese team has won (the gold) there will be more talk about the age and 'cheating' in general in gymnastics?




Dominiqe Dawes responds,

Well, of course there will be! You know the media is going to want to talk about it and maybe give a reason why they shouldn't keep the gold medal or maybe they shouldn't of earned the medal and until it IS proven, (you...you...you...) it's all talk and so the Chinese government has produced passports stating that these young girls are a certain age and who could refute it when their passport is produced by their government.




- Question 2:

Do you believe that they are over 16?



Dominique Daws responds,

I don't really think about it that much. I mean the young Chinese gymnist that I competed against, they always looked very young but gymnist tend to look young. If you saw these American girls in street clothes, they don't look 18- and 19-years-old's to you at all. They look like young little possible 14- and 15-year-old's so the Chinese women definitely look young for their age but that's not a surprise in this sport.
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I'm sorry but I don't care what anybody says - there is NO WAY in hell that those girls are 15/16. At the most I will give them 14, but, they look all of 10-12. There is just no way, that those girls are as old as the Chinese government claims. Unless they were purposefully starved and shrunk in some way.
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Posted 8/15/08 , edited 8/15/08

Incontrovertible wrote:


axbabe04u wrote:


Incontrovertible wrote:

Red - Talent and determination is not age based so that comment is basically worthless.

About the talent before age shit. Nadal was practicing tennis by the age of 4 and he didn't turn pro until he was 18. There are still prereqs that should be met no matter how talented or great the athlete.

Asians look younger yes, but not like they're fucking 9-11. There is NO way in hell they should be that tiny. Also this fact tends to play a factor when Asians get older not when they are still trying to hit their first growth spurt.

Also girls hit puberty at like 9 or 12... I forgot the exact age when they "should" hit it.

The age factor is a big issue because it determines the athletes bodily maturity. Its a lot easier to spin and do flips when you're 10 than when you're 16-17.

Just because someone is older doesn't make it easier for them. Thats like saying when Pete Sampras was 30 he should be able to beat a 24 year old Federer because hes older.

Patrick Ryan's views are soooo on point.

Just a random question, but are you Chinese?





Um, to answer your first question...no, I'm not Chinese but Asian-American. You know what? You are fine with your opinion, good for you but respect mine, too. Without being defensive, it IS possible to be that tiny at 16. Why not?! People have different body types and it grows differently with each individuals especially those in sports such as gymnastics. I'm not questioning that...it's true fact!

First of all, the girls are not 10...they are infact between 15-20 so the comparison you made between a 10 year old to a 16-17 is not really something to argue about. As far as when puberty hits, you are definitely wrong because it's different with each individual. From experience, I hit puberty at 13 while I know people who have at 14-15 and we turned out pretty normal.

In addition, I never questioned age and whether or not their athleticism is better than the other. I agree with you, age has nothing to do with how athletic someone is! I've actually opposed that argument with a user on Youtube where his believed that the younger you are, the better of an athlete. That's biased and rather wrong because for example, swimmer Torres is 41 year old and still managed to win gold against those who were younger than her.


That made me lol a little bit, the red part that is.

Why can't they be that tiny? I believe I just stated the reasons earlier. The girls are supposedly 16. I don't know any girls who are at the tallest what? 4'7? For a 16 year old? Thats complete and utter crap EVEN if they are Asian.

Even if it was possible to have a whole team of little kids is quite unbelievable for all of them to be 16.

Blue - So the article link that was posted earlier was complete bullshit?

Athleticism and talent are two different words. I said talent has no age barriers not athleticism.

Also being younger has advantages and it normally DOES make you a better athlete, its not biased or wrong. Torres may have won at 41 years old, but how many times can she repeat that? Being younger gives you a chance to become faster and stronger while you're body is still able to keep up rather than having an aging body.

Its like comparing Chicago Bull's Michael Jordan to the Wizard's Michael Jordan.





Okay, again and not to act so defensive.

You're red remark. Is it really that 'lol'? It's true that I'm not Chinese but I am Asian-American. I don't believe it matters whether or not I give out my nationality or if it even has any importance in the first place.

Your blue remark. What article? Any of the few article links I've given out are not written by me; therefore, I'm not quite sure where you're getting at. To answer your question anyway, yes, I believe that article I gave out in the very first page is very biased, inconsiderate, and disrespectful.

Also, I definitely did not say that being older always has a better advantage over the younger athletes. Simply, what I was trying to say was being younger or being older doesn't entirely mean one is better than the other at all extent. Yes, the older athlete may not be able to compete with the younger athlete in a (swimming) relay after another relay but it IS possible. I'm not measuring it by how many golds an older athlete can accomplish against a younger athlete either since that's beside the point. Understood? And you're saying the obvious with being young gives you room to become better and stronger.

In addtion, yes, (atleast some) talent is what an athlete may need to accomplish in an event or sport so the 'two words' are related to each other and it's common sense to figure out that they are two different words with slightly different meanings. "Talent has no age barriers but athleticism does." I got it. But just because the body gets old doesn't mean they'll deteriorate right away! Other than my Torres example, what I had in mind was comparing two people only within a few (2-3) years difference.

Oh, I actually know some who are 4'10-5'1 that are between the ages of 15-24 and they could all pass being 12-18 because they are so tiny!



----------------------------------------



Okay wait, I'm actually quite confused at what you're trying to say now so I had to reread everything.

You're argument is...

Talent has no age barrier but athleticism does

"The age factor is a big issue because it determines the athletes bodily maturity. Its a lot easier to spin and do flips when you're 10 than when you're 16-17."

You're saying the younger the better talent and better athleticism but the athletism by 16 is not greater (than before) while the talent would continue to improve over the years. Of course with training builds athletism and even so, the body tends to get old anyway and that's a given but the rate may vary with each individual. For example, if an athelte continue to physically train over the years, he or she would still have the chance of being as good or better than the younger athletes--my example, Torres. So my point is that it IS possible for an athletic who IS older with the right amount of training to still beat a younger competitor.

Anyway, I am not dissagreeing with your talent has no barrier but athleticism does but I'm also trying to point out what I'm meant all along...whether it makes sense or not is up to you!

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