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Post Reply In Defense of Suzaku
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Posted 8/15/08
I understand that this is a Suzaku hate group, which means I equally understand that I have a high chance of being hated and booed down by over 1000 members here on CR. But hey, at least it's not over 9000! hehe...


Anyways, I've been seeing a lot of what I call "irrational hatred" of Suzaku over these almost three weeks compared to the usual "rational hatred" of Suzaku that I see normally. I think most of this 'irrational hatred' has been stemming from the events of Turn 17 and Turn 18. Therefore I've decided to defend Suzaku "actions" in Turn 17 and Turn 18. I put actions in quotation marks because the defense is going to be based more upon what he didn't do rather than what he did do.

Turn 17: Lelouch's Head > Footrest

To those of you out there believe that Suzaku didn't deserve to step on Lelouch's head like he did in that episode, let me just run down a few reasons why Lelouch does deserve to have his head stepped on. I'll divide this into two categories: What Actually Aappened and What Suzaku "Knows".

What Actually Happened:
1) Lelouch terrorizes innocent people.
2) Lelouch kills innocent people.
3) Lelouch uses the accident of Geass going berserk on Euphemia to his advantage rather than coming out and admitting that it was his fault. (I predict that this may screw him over with the Black Knights somewhere along the line, not too sure though)
4) Lelouch uses Japanese people for his own megalomaniacal desires
5) Lelouch refuses to properly take responsiblity for the innocent lives that he has taken (e.g.: Geassing Shirley's mind to forget about him rather than properly aplogizing to her. Later, Lelouch actually contemplates killing Shirley)
6) Lelouch uses Geass in general to bend people against his will and do whatever the hell he wants at the victim's expense.
7) Lelouch doesn't know what Nunnally wants the most.
8,9,10,etc...) There's more, but I have not memorized every single thing about Code Geass there is to memorize

What Suzaku "Knows":

(Note: Knows is put in quotation marks because what Suzaku "knows" is what he has been told. He's been lied to more times than I have eyebrows. 0_0 Truthfully, I think the conclusions Suzaku comes to using the lies that he has been told are pretty logical ones themselves)

1) Lelouch killed Euphie in order to destroy the Special Administrative Region of Nippon* and formally declare the formation of the United States of Nippon while at the same time destroying almost all possiblities of Britannia making peace with Nippon; and that was after he just Geassed Euphie to massacre the Nipponjin (or Nipponers as I like to call them).
2) Lelouch terrorizes innocent people.
3) Lelouch kills innocent people.
4) Lelouch does not take responsibility for his actions.
5) Lelouch wields Geass so he can prevent himself from having to take responsibility for his actions.
6) Lelouch prefers violence. ISO: Unnecessary violence is bad.
7) Lelouch killed Shirley.
8) Lelouch used the Student Council members and the NKS (or JLF if you prefer) for the debut of the Black Knights in order to gain public support and more members.
9) Lelouch nearly blew up an entire mountain just to try to capture his older half-sister.
10) Lelouch used Suzaku to lie to the Nipponers and Geassed Suzaku to live in for his own survival.
11) Lelouch lied about being "an ally of justice".
12,13,14, etc...) Again, I don't have all of Code Geass memorized, I'm sure there's more.

I'm pretty sure these reasons look like they're enough for Lelouch to get his head stepped on at least once.


Turn 17: Suzaku's "Betrayal" of Lelouch

There are smart people and there are stupid people.

Stupid people will actually believe that Suzaku betrayed Lelouch because Lelouch screamed "YOU'VE BETRAYED ME" to the heavens after Kanon and his gang showed up. Please stop reading if you are one of these people. There is no hope for you.

Smart people may still have believe Suzaku betrayed Lelouch, but only because Suzaku didn't try to help Lelouch when Kanon showed up. Well, when you look at the way Lelouch reacted, I don't think reasoning with Lelouch would get him anywhere. If he tried to explain himself to Lelouch he would be inviting both himself and Lelouch for immediate execution. He knew that he lost his chance to make up with Lelouch after what Kanon did (Kanon must die). Becides, Suzaku cares about Nunnally. He loves that cute little loli almost as much as Lelouch does.



Also, I'm sure lots of you may have thought of Suzaku trying to join Zero once he's in the Lancelot with Fleija. Suzaku's already pissed enough that he's becoming exactly like Lelouch, plus Lelouch wouldn't believe him anyways.

Turn 18: Suzaku is Still Attacking Zero!?

Yeah, even I was quite surprised when I saw the Lancelot firing the VARIS at the Mirage after Suzaku threatened Zero with the fact that he holds Fleija. I really can't explain that one except that Suzaku may have been trying to distract Lelouch from firing that beam thing of his. If you think about it, the VARIS is no match for the Mirage's defense (btw, the Mirage's defense system has the words "zettai ryōiki" in it, so I lol'd. Wiki it up if you don't know what it is).

Turn 18: Suzaku Fired FLEIJA! That fucking bastard!

Yeah, you're all hating Suzaku for firing Fleija. And yeah, you're all hating him for firing Fleija straight towards Nunnally's building right? Well, to answer the latter first, Suzaku, under control of the Geass, fired towards the uber-hax Guren with Kallen inside in order to follow the orders of the "live" Geass put upon him (there is no more reason for me to believe that Kallen has any Knightmare Frame skillz after seeing that thing). Kallen dodged (duh). Behind Kallen was Nunnally's office building. Therefore Nunnally's office building goes boom first instead of Guren Seiten-super-duper-uber-hax.

Now to answer the question: Why did Suzaku even fire FLEIJA in the first place? He could have done (name action here) instead.

(Note: As for the WMD, the 'J' in FLEIJA currently holds no meaning. Can anyone tell me why there's a 'J' in there and why the machine's not called FLEIA)

Firstly, Suzaku fired Fleija because Geass forced him to. I know you all can't stand blaming it on Lelouch, but Geass was the reason why Suzaku fired Fleija.

Now let me tell you why every single other alternative would not have worked.

1) Suzaku launching his escape pod: Lancelot has no escape pod.

2) Suzaku flying away as far as he can using Lancelot: Guren Seiten-super-duper-uber-hax. Enough said.

3) Suzaku just dying: He wanted to, but then Geass kicked in and forced him to live.

4) Running away from Kallen while Lloyd and Cecile were screaming at him to: Guren Seiten-super-duper-uber-hax, the fact that Lelouch would probably incinerate him while he flees, and that he has to either fight Kallen or fire Fleija because he has a responsibility to end the battle by firing Fleija at the Ikaruga.

I recently got into a heated debate with an idiot who believes that Geass only tells Suzaku "to live" and that it's up to Suzaku to choose how to execute the command. I lol'd hard that someone would even come up with such a stupid possiblity. One, I've already narrowed it down to why Suzaku could only make it out alive by firing Fleija. Two, Geass takes control of the victim's mind and forces them to execute the command as quickly and as efficiently as possible.
-
I'll give you all one of the most basic examples: The command "to die"
-
Lelouch sure loves giving this command out. If what the idiot I previously mentioned said was true, and it was up to the victim to choose how to execute the command; let's say I was the person Geassed 'to die' (wouldn't you all love that by now [assuming you're still reading]). I could just ignore Lelouch and continue to do what I was doing right after I recieved that command. Why? Becase in about 70 years, give or take a few, I would die of either old age, disease, or be murdered by someone who really dislikes me. I fufilled the command. I died. It just took a really long time for me to fufill the command. However, I still did it.
-
Lastly, if you saw the episode and actually heard what Suzaku was thinking before Geass kicked in, he said he wanted to die as an atonement for his past sins. So it would be unnatural for him to willingly fire Fleija. Plus, he repeatedly refused to fire Fleija while Nina was screaming at him to throughout the entire episode.



So there you have it. My defense of Suzaku. I still don't really like him, but I can understand where he's coming from. I also have the feeling that Taniguchi has prepared him for some coolness later on.



* I use Nippon instead of Japan because although the map that shows in many of the episodes labels it as Japan, the SAR as it was under construction had a huge sign that said "NIPPON" on it. And since I don't know where the term Japan came from, I'm going to assume Nippon because Geass is an alternate universe story so the name "Japan" may have never existed, or was only used by Britannians and the "Japanese" refer to themselves as "Nippon-jin" (lit: Japan people).
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Posted 8/16/08
THANK YOU loltan! This is exactly what was in my mind.

I dont like Suzaku either but lets face it, most of you are just milking reasons to hate him, and stupid illogical reasons at that from eps 17 to 18 of r2.
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Posted 8/16/08

DaisukeHikari wrote:

THANK YOU loltan! This is exactly what was in my mind.

I dont like Suzaku either but lets face it, most of you are just milking reasons to hate him, and stupid illogical reasons at that from eps 17 to 18 of r2.


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Posted 8/16/08

loltan wrote:


DaisukeHikari wrote:

THANK YOU loltan! This is exactly what was in my mind.

I dont like Suzaku either but lets face it, most of you are just milking reasons to hate him, and stupid illogical reasons at that from eps 17 to 18 of r2.




Okay, that was random, but oh well.

Aside that, for those still bitching, who knows, Nunally could be still alive.
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Posted 8/18/08

loltan wrote:

I understand that this is a Suzaku hate group, which means I equally understand that I have a high chance of being hated and booed down by over 1000 members here on CR. But hey, at least it's not over 9000! hehe...


Anyways, I've been seeing a lot of what I call "irrational hatred" of Suzaku over these almost three weeks compared to the usual "rational hatred" of Suzaku that I see normally. I think most of this 'irrational hatred' has been stemming from the events of Turn 17 and Turn 18. Therefore I've decided to defend Suzaku "actions" in Turn 17 and Turn 18. I put actions in quotation marks because the defense is going to be based more upon what he didn't do rather than what he did do.

Turn 17: Lelouch's Head > Footrest

To those of you out there believe that Suzaku didn't deserve to step on Lelouch's head like he did in that episode, let me just run down a few reasons why Lelouch does deserve to have his head stepped on. I'll divide this into two categories: What Actually Aappened and What Suzaku "Knows".

What Actually Happened:
1) Lelouch terrorizes innocent people.
2) Lelouch kills innocent people.
3) Lelouch uses the accident of Geass going berserk on Euphemia to his advantage rather than coming out and admitting that it was his fault. (I predict that this may screw him over with the Black Knights somewhere along the line, not too sure though)
4) Lelouch uses Japanese people for his own megalomaniacal desires
5) Lelouch refuses to properly take responsiblity for the innocent lives that he has taken (e.g.: Geassing Shirley's mind to forget about him rather than properly aplogizing to her. Later, Lelouch actually contemplates killing Shirley)
6) Lelouch uses Geass in general to bend people against his will and do whatever the hell he wants at the victim's expense.
7) Lelouch doesn't know what Nunnally wants the most.
8,9,10,etc...) There's more, but I have not memorized every single thing about Code Geass there is to memorize

What Suzaku "Knows":

(Note: Knows is put in quotation marks because what Suzaku "knows" is what he has been told. He's been lied to more times than I have eyebrows. 0_0 Truthfully, I think the conclusions Suzaku comes to using the lies that he has been told are pretty logical ones themselves)

1) Lelouch killed Euphie in order to destroy the Special Administrative Region of Nippon* and formally declare the formation of the United States of Nippon while at the same time destroying almost all possiblities of Britannia making peace with Nippon; and that was after he just Geassed Euphie to massacre the Nipponjin (or Nipponers as I like to call them).
2) Lelouch terrorizes innocent people.
3) Lelouch kills innocent people.
4) Lelouch does not take responsibility for his actions.
5) Lelouch wields Geass so he can prevent himself from having to take responsibility for his actions.
6) Lelouch prefers violence. ISO: Unnecessary violence is bad.
7) Lelouch killed Shirley.
8) Lelouch used the Student Council members and the NKS (or JLF if you prefer) for the debut of the Black Knights in order to gain public support and more members.
9) Lelouch nearly blew up an entire mountain just to try to capture his older half-sister.
10) Lelouch used Suzaku to lie to the Nipponers and Geassed Suzaku to live in for his own survival.
11) Lelouch lied about being "an ally of justice".
12,13,14, etc...) Again, I don't have all of Code Geass memorized, I'm sure there's more.

I'm pretty sure these reasons look like they're enough for Lelouch to get his head stepped on at least once.


Turn 17: Suzaku's "Betrayal" of Lelouch

There are smart people and there are stupid people.

Stupid people will actually believe that Suzaku betrayed Lelouch because Lelouch screamed "YOU'VE BETRAYED ME" to the heavens after Kanon and his gang showed up. Please stop reading if you are one of these people. There is no hope for you.

Smart people may still have believe Suzaku betrayed Lelouch, but only because Suzaku didn't try to help Lelouch when Kanon showed up. Well, when you look at the way Lelouch reacted, I don't think reasoning with Lelouch would get him anywhere. If he tried to explain himself to Lelouch he would be inviting both himself and Lelouch for immediate execution. He knew that he lost his chance to make up with Lelouch after what Kanon did (Kanon must die). Becides, Suzaku cares about Nunnally. He loves that cute little loli almost as much as Lelouch does.



Also, I'm sure lots of you may have thought of Suzaku trying to join Zero once he's in the Lancelot with Fleija. Suzaku's already pissed enough that he's becoming exactly like Lelouch, plus Lelouch wouldn't believe him anyways.

Turn 18: Suzaku is Still Attacking Zero!?

Yeah, even I was quite surprised when I saw the Lancelot firing the VARIS at the Mirage after Suzaku threatened Zero with the fact that he holds Fleija. I really can't explain that one except that Suzaku may have been trying to distract Lelouch from firing that beam thing of his. If you think about it, the VARIS is no match for the Mirage's defense (btw, the Mirage's defense system has the words "zettai ryōiki" in it, so I lol'd. Wiki it up if you don't know what it is).

Turn 18: Suzaku Fired FLEIJA! That fucking bastard!

Yeah, you're all hating Suzaku for firing Fleija. And yeah, you're all hating him for firing Fleija straight towards Nunnally's building right? Well, to answer the latter first, Suzaku, under control of the Geass, fired towards the uber-hax Guren with Kallen inside in order to follow the orders of the "live" Geass put upon him (there is no more reason for me to believe that Kallen has any Knightmare Frame skillz after seeing that thing). Kallen dodged (duh). Behind Kallen was Nunnally's office building. Therefore Nunnally's office building goes boom first instead of Guren Seiten-super-duper-uber-hax.

Now to answer the question: Why did Suzaku even fire FLEIJA in the first place? He could have done (name action here) instead.

(Note: As for the WMD, the 'J' in FLEIJA currently holds no meaning. Can anyone tell me why there's a 'J' in there and why the machine's not called FLEIA)

Firstly, Suzaku fired Fleija because Geass forced him to. I know you all can't stand blaming it on Lelouch, but Geass was the reason why Suzaku fired Fleija.

Now let me tell you why every single other alternative would not have worked.

1) Suzaku launching his escape pod: Lancelot has no escape pod.

2) Suzaku flying away as far as he can using Lancelot: Guren Seiten-super-duper-uber-hax. Enough said.

3) Suzaku just dying: He wanted to, but then Geass kicked in and forced him to live.

4) Running away from Kallen while Lloyd and Cecile were screaming at him to: Guren Seiten-super-duper-uber-hax, the fact that Lelouch would probably incinerate him while he flees, and that he has to either fight Kallen or fire Fleija because he has a responsibility to end the battle by firing Fleija at the Ikaruga.

I recently got into a heated debate with an idiot who believes that Geass only tells Suzaku "to live" and that it's up to Suzaku to choose how to execute the command. I lol'd hard that someone would even come up with such a stupid possiblity. One, I've already narrowed it down to why Suzaku could only make it out alive by firing Fleija. Two, Geass takes control of the victim's mind and forces them to execute the command as quickly and as efficiently as possible.
-
I'll give you all one of the most basic examples: The command "to die"
-
Lelouch sure loves giving this command out. If what the idiot I previously mentioned said was true, and it was up to the victim to choose how to execute the command; let's say I was the person Geassed 'to die' (wouldn't you all love that by now [assuming you're still reading]). I could just ignore Lelouch and continue to do what I was doing right after I recieved that command. Why? Becase in about 70 years, give or take a few, I would die of either old age, disease, or be murdered by someone who really dislikes me. I fufilled the command. I died. It just took a really long time for me to fufill the command. However, I still did it.
-
Lastly, if you saw the episode and actually heard what Suzaku was thinking before Geass kicked in, he said he wanted to die as an atonement for his past sins. So it would be unnatural for him to willingly fire Fleija. Plus, he repeatedly refused to fire Fleija while Nina was screaming at him to throughout the entire episode.



So there you have it. My defense of Suzaku. I still don't really like him, but I can understand where he's coming from. I also have the feeling that Taniguchi has prepared him for some coolness later on.



* I use Nippon instead of Japan because although the map that shows in many of the episodes labels it as Japan, the SAR as it was under construction had a huge sign that said "NIPPON" on it. And since I don't know where the term Japan came from, I'm going to assume Nippon because Geass is an alternate universe story so the name "Japan" may have never existed, or was only used by Britannians and the "Japanese" refer to themselves as "Nippon-jin" (lit: Japan people).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having read this, I can still say that I serisouly dislike Suzaku, but firstly I'd like to say that my reasons for hating Suzaku are not all from episodes 18 and 19, although some are. I do not blame him for firing FLEIJA for the same reasons you don't. He had no control over the matter. You could even argue that it was indirectly Lelouch's fault, although that's not really fair. There is of course no way he could ever have anticipated this would happen.

I do wonder however if you dislike Lelouch, because I'm sensing resentment in this post of him...not sure if that came across right. I think that when Lelouch kills people, the vast majority of the time it is necessary to ensure his victory or loyalty from the Black Knights (which he needs if he ever wants to win this war). This includes incidents such as Shirley's father, which was very sad but Lelouch needed to capture Cornelia. There is no war without casualties.

Speaking of Euphie....that was a tragedy. No one could have anticipated that. Of course, after Lelouch realized that he couldn't take back his command, he used the problem to his advantage. But think about it...what else could he have done? Apologize? No. To apologize would mean to explain that he has the geass, because an explaination of how he commanded Euphie and it actually worked would be in order. Also, if he took the blame, then even though it wasn't his fault, people would not follow him anymore. And yet, the Japanese were still not free. There wasn't a plausible option other than the one he took without forfitting the Japanese people.

As far as using the Japanese people goes, he IS using them for his own purposes, but those purposes ultimately benefit the Japanese. If all goes well, they will be independant once again.
On the irresponsibility with Shirley count, I don't think it was his irresponsibility. He clearly cared for her and saw that she was suffering. He didn't want her to suffer, so he took away all of the painful memories. I didn't approve very much, but I see where he was coming from.

Also, I feel number 7 isn't fair. It's not Lelouch's fault that he doesn't know what she wants the most. I assume you mean that Nunnaly wants to live with Lelouch and their friends in peace and wouldn't want him to do what he is doing as Zero. Well, I see your point, but he is a overprotective brother. Can you REALLY blame him?

Of course, this was all in defense of Lelouch. Now onto Suzaku.

Suzaku learned of the geass. He assumed that because Lelouch had the geass and Euphie killed the Japanese that Lelouch ordered it. But it doesn't seem like he stopped to think about WHY Lelouch would order that kind of thing. I guess he also didn't think about how Lelouch isn't the only one with a geass. He was not the only one capable of such an order. I would push this case farther, but Lelouch made that hard by admitting to it to protect Nunnaly. That pissed me off, but hey. Even if he told the truth, I don't really think that Suzaku would have believed him, and then he definitely would not have helped.

Also, WHY the hell would Lelouch kill Shirley? Really, am I missing something? Why would he even think that?? Like I said on the Code Geass group, he seems to want to blame everything on Lelouch because he has a geass and he does things in a way that Suzaku doesn't approve of. Lelouch cared for Shirley, and yes, he did use the geass on her. For protection from her own mind. I know know. Suzaku has no way of knowing that part. But he still could see how Lelouch cared for his friends.

Not to mention that the only reason Suzaku was mad about the geass put on him was because he wanted to die. He feels like he deserves to die because of his own patricide. Honestly, that just pisses me off. He's not even trying to live; he's waiting to die.

I also want to mention how he almost used refrain on Kallen. Maybe he didn't go through with it, but he sure did come close.

But really, to be fair, I didn't hate him the whole series. I really only started hating him after Euphie died. I have to say, I think he's literally gone wacko after episode 19 though. I just think he's too judgemental and quick to place the blame. I don't hate him as much as the people on this site do, and certainly not for the same reasons. It may not even be pure hatred, because I can say that you have swayed me somewhat, but there is still a deep disdain for him.

Speaking of this site, I really don't want to be killed, but I have to say. On the info section where you people are talking about hating him and why, why do you have to call him a gay? That's just unneccesary and false. It's also not a reason to hate someone. If you are going to really hate a character, at least come up with a not shitty reason. Thats all.

Posted 8/18/08

loltan wrote:

I understand that this is a Suzaku hate group, which means I equally understand that I have a high chance of being hated and booed down by over 1000 members here on CR. But hey, at least it's not over 9000! hehe...


Anyways, I've been seeing a lot of what I call "irrational hatred" of Suzaku over these almost three weeks compared to the usual "rational hatred" of Suzaku that I see normally. I think most of this 'irrational hatred' has been stemming from the events of Turn 17 and Turn 18. Therefore I've decided to defend Suzaku "actions" in Turn 17 and Turn 18. I put actions in quotation marks because the defense is going to be based more upon what he didn't do rather than what he did do.

Turn 17: Lelouch's Head > Footrest

To those of you out there believe that Suzaku didn't deserve to step on Lelouch's head like he did in that episode, let me just run down a few reasons why Lelouch does deserve to have his head stepped on. I'll divide this into two categories: What Actually Aappened and What Suzaku "Knows".

What Actually Happened:
1) Lelouch terrorizes innocent people.
2) Lelouch kills innocent people.
3) Lelouch uses the accident of Geass going berserk on Euphemia to his advantage rather than coming out and admitting that it was his fault. (I predict that this may screw him over with the Black Knights somewhere along the line, not too sure though)
4) Lelouch uses Japanese people for his own megalomaniacal desires
5) Lelouch refuses to properly take responsiblity for the innocent lives that he has taken (e.g.: Geassing Shirley's mind to forget about him rather than properly aplogizing to her. Later, Lelouch actually contemplates killing Shirley)
6) Lelouch uses Geass in general to bend people against his will and do whatever the hell he wants at the victim's expense.
7) Lelouch doesn't know what Nunnally wants the most.
8,9,10,etc...) There's more, but I have not memorized every single thing about Code Geass there is to memorize

What Suzaku "Knows":

(Note: Knows is put in quotation marks because what Suzaku "knows" is what he has been told. He's been lied to more times than I have eyebrows. 0_0 Truthfully, I think the conclusions Suzaku comes to using the lies that he has been told are pretty logical ones themselves)

1) Lelouch killed Euphie in order to destroy the Special Administrative Region of Nippon* and formally declare the formation of the United States of Nippon while at the same time destroying almost all possiblities of Britannia making peace with Nippon; and that was after he just Geassed Euphie to massacre the Nipponjin (or Nipponers as I like to call them).
2) Lelouch terrorizes innocent people.
3) Lelouch kills innocent people.
4) Lelouch does not take responsibility for his actions.
5) Lelouch wields Geass so he can prevent himself from having to take responsibility for his actions.
6) Lelouch prefers violence. ISO: Unnecessary violence is bad.
7) Lelouch killed Shirley.
8) Lelouch used the Student Council members and the NKS (or JLF if you prefer) for the debut of the Black Knights in order to gain public support and more members.
9) Lelouch nearly blew up an entire mountain just to try to capture his older half-sister.
10) Lelouch used Suzaku to lie to the Nipponers and Geassed Suzaku to live in for his own survival.
11) Lelouch lied about being "an ally of justice".
12,13,14, etc...) Again, I don't have all of Code Geass memorized, I'm sure there's more.

I'm pretty sure these reasons look like they're enough for Lelouch to get his head stepped on at least once.


Turn 17: Suzaku's "Betrayal" of Lelouch

There are smart people and there are stupid people.

Stupid people will actually believe that Suzaku betrayed Lelouch because Lelouch screamed "YOU'VE BETRAYED ME" to the heavens after Kanon and his gang showed up. Please stop reading if you are one of these people. There is no hope for you.

Smart people may still have believe Suzaku betrayed Lelouch, but only because Suzaku didn't try to help Lelouch when Kanon showed up. Well, when you look at the way Lelouch reacted, I don't think reasoning with Lelouch would get him anywhere. If he tried to explain himself to Lelouch he would be inviting both himself and Lelouch for immediate execution. He knew that he lost his chance to make up with Lelouch after what Kanon did (Kanon must die). Becides, Suzaku cares about Nunnally. He loves that cute little loli almost as much as Lelouch does.



Also, I'm sure lots of you may have thought of Suzaku trying to join Zero once he's in the Lancelot with Fleija. Suzaku's already pissed enough that he's becoming exactly like Lelouch, plus Lelouch wouldn't believe him anyways.

Turn 18: Suzaku is Still Attacking Zero!?

Yeah, even I was quite surprised when I saw the Lancelot firing the VARIS at the Mirage after Suzaku threatened Zero with the fact that he holds Fleija. I really can't explain that one except that Suzaku may have been trying to distract Lelouch from firing that beam thing of his. If you think about it, the VARIS is no match for the Mirage's defense (btw, the Mirage's defense system has the words "zettai ryōiki" in it, so I lol'd. Wiki it up if you don't know what it is).

Turn 18: Suzaku Fired FLEIJA! That fucking bastard!

Yeah, you're all hating Suzaku for firing Fleija. And yeah, you're all hating him for firing Fleija straight towards Nunnally's building right? Well, to answer the latter first, Suzaku, under control of the Geass, fired towards the uber-hax Guren with Kallen inside in order to follow the orders of the "live" Geass put upon him (there is no more reason for me to believe that Kallen has any Knightmare Frame skillz after seeing that thing). Kallen dodged (duh). Behind Kallen was Nunnally's office building. Therefore Nunnally's office building goes boom first instead of Guren Seiten-super-duper-uber-hax.

Now to answer the question: Why did Suzaku even fire FLEIJA in the first place? He could have done (name action here) instead.

(Note: As for the WMD, the 'J' in FLEIJA currently holds no meaning. Can anyone tell me why there's a 'J' in there and why the machine's not called FLEIA)

Firstly, Suzaku fired Fleija because Geass forced him to. I know you all can't stand blaming it on Lelouch, but Geass was the reason why Suzaku fired Fleija.

Now let me tell you why every single other alternative would not have worked.

1) Suzaku launching his escape pod: Lancelot has no escape pod.

2) Suzaku flying away as far as he can using Lancelot: Guren Seiten-super-duper-uber-hax. Enough said.

3) Suzaku just dying: He wanted to, but then Geass kicked in and forced him to live.

4) Running away from Kallen while Lloyd and Cecile were screaming at him to: Guren Seiten-super-duper-uber-hax, the fact that Lelouch would probably incinerate him while he flees, and that he has to either fight Kallen or fire Fleija because he has a responsibility to end the battle by firing Fleija at the Ikaruga.

I recently got into a heated debate with an idiot who believes that Geass only tells Suzaku "to live" and that it's up to Suzaku to choose how to execute the command. I lol'd hard that someone would even come up with such a stupid possiblity. One, I've already narrowed it down to why Suzaku could only make it out alive by firing Fleija. Two, Geass takes control of the victim's mind and forces them to execute the command as quickly and as efficiently as possible.
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I'll give you all one of the most basic examples: The command "to die"
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Lelouch sure loves giving this command out. If what the idiot I previously mentioned said was true, and it was up to the victim to choose how to execute the command; let's say I was the person Geassed 'to die' (wouldn't you all love that by now [assuming you're still reading]). I could just ignore Lelouch and continue to do what I was doing right after I recieved that command. Why? Becase in about 70 years, give or take a few, I would die of either old age, disease, or be murdered by someone who really dislikes me. I fufilled the command. I died. It just took a really long time for me to fufill the command. However, I still did it.
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Lastly, if you saw the episode and actually heard what Suzaku was thinking before Geass kicked in, he said he wanted to die as an atonement for his past sins. So it would be unnatural for him to willingly fire Fleija. Plus, he repeatedly refused to fire Fleija while Nina was screaming at him to throughout the entire episode.



So there you have it. My defense of Suzaku. I still don't really like him, but I can understand where he's coming from. I also have the feeling that Taniguchi has prepared him for some coolness later on.



* I use Nippon instead of Japan because although the map that shows in many of the episodes labels it as Japan, the SAR as it was under construction had a huge sign that said "NIPPON" on it. And since I don't know where the term Japan came from, I'm going to assume Nippon because Geass is an alternate universe story so the name "Japan" may have never existed, or was only used by Britannians and the "Japanese" refer to themselves as "Nippon-jin" (lit: Japan people).


LOLOLOL, in that picture with Nunally and Suzaku, he looks like he's going to molest her. Just look at that face, haha! And one more thing, Suzaku has a nice butt. <3

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UchihaSakura4 wrote:

Having read this, I can still say that I serisouly dislike Suzaku, but firstly I'd like to say that my reasons for hating Suzaku are not all from episodes 18 and 19, although some are. I do not blame him for firing FLEIJA for the same reasons you don't. He had no control over the matter. You could even argue that it was indirectly Lelouch's fault, although that's not really fair. There is of course no way he could ever have anticipated this would happen.



It's entirely fair to blame the entire Fleija incident on Lelouch.

http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-132635/Suzaku-KururugiCode-Geass.html

See pages 83 through 87. I had some heavy debating going on with three people I think. Only one of them was smart. The other two were complete idiots.

If you don't want to read so many pages here's the short version.

We're not going to blame it on Lelouch because of the Geass. We're gunna blame it on Lelouch when he refused to believe Suzaku when he said he had a WMD. Regardless of whether or not that was true Suzaku told him that this weapon can instantly kill at least 40 thousand people. The real death toll was over 10 million. Both numbers meant a lot of lives being taken. Lelouch disregarded that. He was inhuman in letting his anger guide his actions. I can rationally blame the entire Fleija incident on him.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:

I do wonder however if you dislike Lelouch, because I'm sensing resentment in this post of him...not sure if that came across right. I think that when Lelouch kills people, the vast majority of the time it is necessary to ensure his victory or loyalty from the Black Knights (which he needs if he ever wants to win this war). This includes incidents such as Shirley's father, which was very sad but Lelouch needed to capture Cornelia. There is no war without casualties.



I used to be a hardcore Lelouch fan. I even dismissed how he acted in episode 4 back when I pitied Rolo. Turn 13 in R2 got me thinking a bit and then Turn 14 in R2 just set me off. I really liked Shirley (normal girl > abnomal girl) so I was pissed as fuck to see her get killed, Turn 14 pissed me off even more because Lelouch chose not to kill Rolo even if it didn't mean killing V.V. That made me realize that despite all of that bullshit he spewed about wanting to see fireworks with everyone again, and saving his sister, and recreating the world Lelouch is just a selfish megalomaniac who only cares about himself. So with that mindset, I rewatched the first season RAW, which was very difficult as I know almost no Japanese, and I realized a lot of things I would not have realized if I was following the "always believe in the protagonist" kind of mindset that most people have. The first thing that Lelouch emphasizes back in season 1 was that he didn't want to be played like a chess piece. Lelouch had two options, live life as Lelouch Lamperouge, or attempt to avenge himself, his mother, and his sister by attempting to destroy Britannia. If I were Lelouch, I would have chosen the former. Lelouch could have easily granted Nunnally her "peaceful and kind world" just by staying by her side. Have you ever noticed that every Ashford filler episode or the scenes that seem anti-climactic are always the ones where everyone looks happy? I seriously think that one of the reasons Marianne died was because she knew her son would get fed up by what happened and cause himself to get exiled with Nunnally. Once Lelouch and Nunnally are disqualified from inheriting the Britannian throne, they become free from the system that forces the Royal Family to kill each other until one is left to inherit the throne. He could have started and maintained a new and happy life with his sister. By choosing to go to war, Lelouch threw away his sister's happiness for his own revenge.

Now to directly address your examples about Lelouch killing people. Everything you say directly reinforces my statement that Lelouch is a selfish megalomaniac. He does everything for his own benefit. "Hey! Let's blow up an entire mountain so that lots of people will die just so I can capture my sister and ask her what happened to my mother." "Hey! I'm gunna destroy the NKS (JLF) so I can get rid of the Nipponers who might disagree with me and gain the trust of the stupid and desperate Nipponers while at the same time trying to capture my sister again!"

There's so many things Lelouch does that only causes things to get worse for those he claims he protects. Once things settle down and you get the chance to look it over, you'll notice that everything Lelouch does has goal of benefitting himself. He doesn't think of anyone but himself. That's why I hate him.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:

Speaking of Euphie....that was a tragedy. No one could have anticipated that. Of course, after Lelouch realized that he couldn't take back his command, he used the problem to his advantage. But think about it...what else could he have done? Apologize? No. To apologize would mean to explain that he has the geass, because an explaination of how he commanded Euphie and it actually worked would be in order. Also, if he took the blame, then even though it wasn't his fault, people would not follow him anymore. And yet, the Japanese were still not free. There wasn't a plausible option other than the one he took without forfitting the Japanese people.



Here's an easy way to prevent the tragedy. Don't use Geass anymore once you've managed to escape the ghetto! Your Geass then will not berserk due to overuse. Apologizing would be accepting his faults, and Lelouch just doesn't do that shit. He has to make it so that its always because of someone else. You can only make him admit to his faults by threatening him and making him bow like a pathetic dog, which Suzaku did. The Nipponers were totally fine with the Special Administrative Region of Nippon. Zero destroyed that. He used the accident to his advantage rather than admitting to it. If the Special Administrative Region had succeeded that means Suzaku would have been right in believeing that non-violent methods were possible. In other words, Suzaku appears to be wrong only because Lelouch ruined everything. Becides, who does it hurt other than Lelouch if he just reveals the truth to the world? Probably only his friends and Nunnally, and that's because he lied to them. You can't say that Lelouch did the best thing he could by using this tragedy to his advantage. If Lelouch had told the truth, the Britannians and the Nipponers could still make up and there still could be a Special Administrative Region. Lelouch took the route he did because it would give the best results for himself. Not the Nipponers, not the Britannians, but himself.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:

As far as using the Japanese people goes, he IS using them for his own purposes, but those purposes ultimately benefit the Japanese. If all goes well, they will be independant once again.
On the irresponsibility with Shirley count, I don't think it was his irresponsibility. He clearly cared for her and saw that she was suffering. He didn't want her to suffer, so he took away all of the painful memories. I didn't approve very much, but I see where he was coming from.



Yeah sure, I laugh at anyone who thinks that Lelouch is doing a good thing. I seriously laugh because it's so stupid. Ultimately benefit the Japanese? Give me a break. Since when has a war ultimately benefitted anyone as an individual? On the surface you can look at the winning nation and say "Oh look, they won! They have it good now." but once you see what war does to individuals War destroys homes, families, and takes so many lives. Only blind people (sorry Nunnally) would miss the fact that Suzaku's anitviolent methods were working. The Nipponers could have easily regained good lives thourgh the SAR.

About Shirley, if you look at the episode preview for Stage 15 at the end of Stage 14, Lelouch mentions that it would have been better off if he had just killed Shirley. That just shows how he continues to deny responsiblilty for his actions. By Geassing off Shirley's memories and even thinking about killing her he proves how irresponsible he is and that he uses Geass to get himself out of sticky situations. Lie after lie, after lie, Lelouch uses more lies to cover up the ones he previously told. It makes me want to ask him the same question Charles did in Turn 15, "Is that the way kings do things?"


UchihaSakura4 wrote:

Also, I feel number 7 isn't fair. It's not Lelouch's fault that he doesn't know what she wants the most. I assume you mean that Nunnaly wants to live with Lelouch and their friends in peace and wouldn't want him to do what he is doing as Zero. Well, I see your point, but he is a overprotective brother. Can you REALLY blame him?



If Lelouch was overprotective he should consider working out and always being by Nunnally's side rather than starting a worldwide rebellion and having a ninja-maid and his best friend who is working for his enemy protect her.

Also, I'm pretty sure that somewhere in season 1 Nunnally told Lelouch that just being able to be together was enough for her.

So yeah, it's pretty easy to blame him rationally. It's tons easier to blame him than to blame Suzaku.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:

Suzaku learned of the geass. He assumed that because Lelouch had the geass and Euphie killed the Japanese that Lelouch ordered it. But it doesn't seem like he stopped to think about WHY Lelouch would order that kind of thing. I guess he also didn't think about how Lelouch isn't the only one with a geass. He was not the only one capable of such an order. I would push this case farther, but Lelouch made that hard by admitting to it to protect Nunnaly. That pissed me off, but hey. Even if he told the truth, I don't really think that Suzaku would have believed him, and then he definitely would not have helped.



Suzaku would have believed Lelouch if he told the truth, but lying just sped things up (longwinded explanation vs "yes I did it"). Before Suzaku talked to Lelouch he believed Lelouch Geassed Euphie to destroy the SAR and keep the Black Knights alive (he was right because Lelouch did take advantage of the situation). Becides, you're saying that someone else with Geass could have given the order as well. Who could have done that? Suzaku decided to help Lelouch because he realized that Lelouch was lying about everything being intentional. I think he was way too soft, but then again he doesn't know the whole story like the viewers do.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:

Also, WHY the hell would Lelouch kill Shirley? Really, am I missing something? Why would he even think that?? Like I said on the Code Geass group, he seems to want to blame everything on Lelouch because he has a geass and he does things in a way that Suzaku doesn't approve of. Lelouch cared for Shirley, and yes, he did use the geass on her. For protection from her own mind. I know know. Suzaku has no way of knowing that part. But he still could see how Lelouch cared for his friends.



You sure give Lelouch a lot of props. I already told you where Lelouch pondered killing Shirley. The way I see it the fact that he Geasses her and ponders killing her shows how irresponsible he is. It nothing he did was for her sake. Turn 14 proved it to me. Lelouch said, "As a service to Shirley I shall offer Rolo's life." He didn't blow up the Vincent. He didn't kill Rolo, in fact he thanks Rolo at the end of Turn 19. He's a person who's sins after sinning and will never stop his sins. His entire existance is due to sins. He is alive because of sin. If Lelouch isn't a demon then everyone else in Code Geass is a saint. He never cared for his friends. He executed the Second Battle of Tokyo even though he knew that Milly now works in the settlement. Where's the gratefulness for the kind Ashfords who took him in when he had nowhere else to go? Suzaku believed that Lelouch cared for his friends, but it's pretty obvious Lelouch only fufills his own needs.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:

Not to mention that the only reason Suzaku was mad about the geass put on him was because he wanted to die. He feels like he deserves to die because of his own patricide. Honestly, that just pisses me off. He's not even trying to live; he's waiting to die.

I also want to mention how he almost used refrain on Kallen. Maybe he didn't go through with it, but he sure did come close.



You've completely misunderstood. The reason Suzaku's mad at Lelouch for the "live" Geass is because it goes against his principles. The Geass placed on Suzaku forces him to be selfish and put his own life before others. On Kaminejima, if Suzaku had held Zero for just a bit longer Schneizel would have killed them both and prevented a huge amount of casualties. And then there's Fleija but I'm sure that's all fresh in our minds still.

And to Suzaku using Refrain on Kallen, so what? Lelouch Geassed Kallen. Same thing. They both wanted to use her for answers. The only difference is that Suzaku didn't actually do it.

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Loltan:
Damn it, I just hate getting into heated debates like this, so I'll try to make this as concise as possible.


We're not going to blame it on Lelouch because of the Geass. We're gunna blame it on Lelouch when he refused to believe Suzaku when he said he had a WMD. Regardless of whether or not that was true Suzaku told him that this weapon can instantly kill at least 40 thousand people. The real death toll was over 10 million. Both numbers meant a lot of lives being taken. Lelouch disregarded that. He was inhuman in letting his anger guide his actions. I can rationally blame the entire Fleija incident on him.

Brittania had never mentioned having a weapon like this, and they never HAD had a weapon like this in the past. Fleija had just been created and no one knew anything about it. Lelouch didn't believe Suzaku because Britannia is full of lies and there was no proof. Lelouch thought that Suzaku was bluffing, and I don't fault him.


I really liked Shirley (normal girl > abnomal girl) so I was pissed as fuck to see her get killed, Turn 14 pissed me off even more because Lelouch chose not to kill Rolo even if it didn't mean killing V.V. That made me realize that despite all of that bullshit he spewed about wanting to see fireworks with everyone again, and saving his sister, and recreating the world Lelouch is just a selfish megalomaniac who only cares about himself.

Lelouch is a calculating kind of guy. He understood that if he waited and used Rolo he could kill him later and get two birds with one stone. It wasn't that he didn't want revenge, he just wanted to use Rolo to the most that he could and get him later.
I remember you saying to someone on a thread that you were unforgiving. I believe that very much by what you've said about Lelouch. I also believe that the reason that you do not hate Suzaku more is because you hate his enemy more than him.

Lelouch could have easily granted Nunnally her "peaceful and kind world" just by staying by her side. Once Lelouch and Nunnally are disqualified from inheriting the Britannian throne, they become free from the system that forces the Royal Family to kill each other until one is left to inherit the throne. He could have started and maintained a new and happy life with his sister. By choosing to go to war, Lelouch threw away his sister's happiness for his own revenge.

A happy life? Not with terrorists going around and blowing up buildings everyday. Sure, they would be safe but that doesn’t necessarily constitute happiness. If there were terrorists blowing up buildings in my city I don’t think I would feel very happy. Lelouch wanted a stable Japan for his sister: a place where people were happy and not beaten on the streets like dogs. Obviously some of his reasoning (Clovis for example) was for revenge, and I acknowledge that. However, no one is perfect and I can’t damn him for wanting to know the truth.

Now to directly address your examples about Lelouch killing people. Everything you say directly reinforces my statement that Lelouch is a selfish megalomaniac. He does everything for his own benefit. "Hey! Let's blow up an entire mountain so that lots of people will die just so I can capture my sister and ask her what happened to my mother." "Hey! I'm gunna destroy the NKS (JLF) so I can get rid of the Nipponers who might disagree with me and gain the trust of the stupid and desperate Nipponers while at the same time trying to capture my sister again!"

Oh come on, you know better than to say that he was only trying to capture her to gather information. Part of it is sure, but it’s political. She’s an amazing military mind; taking her away would drastically weaken the Britannian army in area eleven.

Here's an easy way to prevent the tragedy. Don't use Geass anymore once you've managed to escape the ghetto! Your Geass then will not berserk due to overuse.

That's completely unfair. He had no idea that there was such a thing as berzerk mode for overuse of his geass!

Becides, who does it hurt other than Lelouch if he just reveals the truth to the world? Probably only his friends and Nunnally, and that's because he lied to them. You can't say that Lelouch did the best thing he could by using this tragedy to his advantage. If Lelouch had told the truth, the Britannians and the Nipponers could still make up and there still could be a Special Administrative Region. Lelouch took the route he did because it would give the best results for himself. Not the Nipponers, not the Britannians, but himself.

If Lelouch had told the truth I don’t think normal people would even believe him. And even if they did, I still wouldn’t trust the Britannians. I honestly don’t think that they would have made up after that massacre. The people reacted so badly to Nunnally’s re-proposition…I just don’t think it would have worked at all.

Yeah sure, I laugh at anyone who thinks that Lelouch is doing a good thing. I seriously laugh because it's so stupid. Ultimately benefit the Japanese? Give me a break. Since when has a war ultimately benefited anyone as an individual? On the surface you can look at the winning nation and say "Oh look, they won! They have it good now." but once you see what war does to individuals War destroys homes, families, and takes so many lives. Only blind people (sorry Nunnally) would miss the fact that Suzaku's antiviolent methods were working. The Nipponers could have easily regained good lives through the SAR.

Well seeing as I don’t think that the SAR would have even worked after the Euphemia incident, I can’t say that I agree with you at all. And are you an anti war person? Of course it helps! Things like this take time, of course, but at least they aren’t being oppressed. How would the end result not be better than that??

About Shirley, if you look at the episode preview for Stage 15 at the end of Stage 14, Lelouch mentions that it would have been better off if he had just killed Shirley. That just shows how he continues to deny responsiblilty for his actions. By Geassing off Shirley's memories and even thinking about killing her he proves how irresponsible he is and that he uses Geass to get himself out of sticky situations. Lie after lie, after lie, Lelouch uses more lies to cover up the ones he previously told. It makes me want to ask him the same question Charles did in Turn 15, "Is that the way kings do things?"

I think you’re missing the context he says this in. He says this after she had to go through the pain of everything that she…well, that she went through. The truth, you could say. Anyway, he was sad to have to lose a friend, the way he did her. He thought maybe it would have been better…for HER. After all, when she regains her memories in R2 and he prevents her from committing suicide off the top of that building, he tells her that he doesn’t want to lose a single thing. He had already lost her once, and didn’t want it to happen again because he cared about her so much. When she died, he sobbed like no one’s business! He tried to save her by telling her to live, over and over and over again while she was dying. I have a hard time seeing how you can blame this on him.

He didn't kill Rolo, in fact he thanks Rolo at the end of Turn 19.

Yes, but there is obviously something there that we don't know the full story about. If you watched the preview for the next episode, it made it clear that there was a continuation of the Rolo story explanation. Even still, everyone sins.

The Geass placed on Suzaku forces him to be selfish and put his own life before others. On Kaminejima, if Suzaku had held Zero for just a bit longer Schneizel would have killed them both and prevented a huge amount of casualties. And then there's Fleija but I'm sure that's all fresh in our minds still.

Schneizel would have killed them both and the Japanese would still be suffering. No war without casualities. And speaking of Fleija…oh man. Suzaku may have just gone insane from guilt after that. I mean, that laugh was unnerving.

And to Suzaku using Refrain on Kallen, so what? Lelouch Geassed Kallen. Same thing. They both wanted to use her for answers. The only difference is that Suzaku didn't actually do it.

Ah, what the hell! Geassing (which is apparently a verb now, lol) someone and using a drug on someone is NOT the same thing! They both wanted answers, yes, but they were going about it in completely different ways. Do you remember the episode which dealt with Kallen’s past and her mom? They showed a scene where there were a dozen or so people under the use of Refrain in that warehouse or whatever it was. Those people were, I’m sad to say, pathetic. I would never do that to someone. I give Suzaku credit for not doing it, but it almost balances out with the fact that he even thought about it in the first place.
It’s hard to debate with someone about this when they don’t have the same principles as you though. If you really think that it’s the same thing, then I suppose there is nothing I can say to really change your mind.
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DaisukeHikari wrote:


loltan wrote:


DaisukeHikari wrote:

THANK YOU loltan! This is exactly what was in my mind.

I dont like Suzaku either but lets face it, most of you are just milking reasons to hate him, and stupid illogical reasons at that from eps 17 to 18 of r2.




Okay, that was random, but oh well.

Aside that, for those still bitching, who knows, Nunally could be still alive.


Nunnaly is dead for sure , If you don't belive me see for yourself on the official site(Jap)
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UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Brittania had never mentioned having a weapon like this, and they never HAD had a weapon like this in the past. Fleija had just been created and no one knew anything about it. Lelouch didn't believe Suzaku because Britannia is full of lies and there was no proof. Lelouch thought that Suzaku was bluffing, and I don't fault him.


Hey Zero! I have a WMD! It's on the Lancelot! Try looking! Do I have to take your head and turn it so that you can see it? Did you ever notice that different looking gun on Lancelot's butt while you were shooting at me? That's Fleija! You don't think so? Do I have to demonstrate? Try getting your ace to kill me using a new super-hax Knightmare!


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Lelouch is a calculating kind of guy. He understood that if he waited and used Rolo he could kill him later and get two birds with one stone. It wasn't that he didn't want revenge, he just wanted to use Rolo to the most that he could and get him later.
I remember you saying to someone on a thread that you were unforgiving. I believe that very much by what you've said about Lelouch. I also believe that the reason that you do not hate Suzaku more is because you hate his enemy more than him.


Lelouch is a selfish person. That's why he calculates. Killing Rolo turned from revenge for Shirley into, "I'll use Rolo to fight for me a bit and then blow him up to kill the enemy. By the way, did I mention I was avenging Shirley too? Oops..." The fact that he doesn't continue with killing Rolo after that is proof that he only thinks of himself. Lelouch will put himself as top priority, even over his sister who he claims to care about so much. The reason I don't hate Suzaku as much as Lelouch (I still dislike him overall, but lately he's been showing some coolness) is because I see his way as the more logical method. History has proven that nonviolent methods do work when groups persist and perservere. I also choose to look outside of the enclosed box created by the story's focus. If you don't look outside of the box, you won't understand why Lelouch and the symbol called Zero are so terrible.

Totally off-topic: The reason I dislike Suzaku is because he abandoned his family and killed his father. He was like Lelouch, but at the very least he abandoned his family in an attempt to prevent his people dying (Genbu Kururugi advocated fighting until death). Lelouch abandoned Nunnally for the sake of revenge. Not cool.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
A happy life? Not with terrorists going around and blowing up buildings everyday. Sure, they would be safe but that doesn’t necessarily constitute happiness. If there were terrorists blowing up buildings in my city I don’t think I would feel very happy. Lelouch wanted a stable Japan for his sister: a place where people were happy and not beaten on the streets like dogs. Obviously some of his reasoning (Clovis for example) was for revenge, and I acknowledge that. However, no one is perfect and I can’t damn him for wanting to know the truth.


Well... Zero's kind of the one leading the terrorists...

Also, although the thought and sight of seeing terrorists everyday is depressing, it's not enough to get in the way of someone's happiness as long as said person is not the victim. It's perfectly easy to achieve one's own happiness while he/she is a bystander to someone else's misery. Nunnally told Lelouch that she would be perfectly happy with him just staying by her side while Lelouch was Zero. Lelouch could have quit being Zero right there, but chose to continue on. He's selfish like I've said so so many times. Although Japan's safety would be good for Nunnally, I think it would be easier for her to find happiness if Japan was destroyed and Lelouch remained becide her. "Your own family's always the most important." should be the mindset that Lelouch has, not, "I want to find out why my dead mother got killed so I'll use a bunch of desperate Japanese to start a war with Britannia while totally ditching my living sister who's blind and can't walk." Nunnally's been through some rough shit. I think Lelouch ditching her to fight a war is pretty low.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Oh come on, you know better than to say that he was only trying to capture her to gather information. Part of it is sure, but it’s political. She’s an amazing military mind; taking her away would drastically weaken the Britannian army in area eleven.


Ok, fine. It wasn't just to get some information, it was to kill her or hold her hostage after getting the information and weaken the Britannian army so it would make it easier for him to find the culprit if it wasn't Cornelia. He's trying to get close to the Royal Family because he knows that someone connected to them killed his mother. His true motive is just revenge.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
That's completely unfair. He had no idea that there was such a thing as berzerk mode for overuse of his geass!


Short answer: Mao.

Long answer: C.C. explained that Lelouch's Geass might have concequenses if he uses it too much after Lelouch's first encounter with Mao who was using Shirley.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
If Lelouch had told the truth I don’t think normal people would even believe him. And even if they did, I still wouldn’t trust the Britannians. I honestly don’t think that they would have made up after that massacre. The people reacted so badly to Nunnally’s re-proposition…I just don’t think it would have worked at all.


You think wrong. All Lelouch has to do is demonstrate by Geassing someone. The only person you really need to trust is Euphemia, so no matter how racist and hateful towards the Japanese the other Britannians are, as long as Euphemia is calling the shots everyone would have been safe. The Japanese and the Britannians would have easily made up after the massacre because the Black Knights and the Japanese would no longer trust Zero because he kept the secret that he was a Britannian prince and that he had a magical power. The Japanese reacted badly to Nunnally's idea because they thought Euphemia commanded the massacre, which she did, but under the influence of Lelouch's Geass. Becides, the Black Knights did sell out Lelouch within one episode. Also, if Lelouch had confessed as Euphemia was running out to kill the first Japanese man, the other deaths could have been avoided and thus preventing the massacre.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:

Well seeing as I don’t think that the SAR would have even worked after the Euphemia incident, I can’t say that I agree with you at all. And are you an anti war person? Of course it helps! Things like this take time, of course, but at least they aren’t being oppressed. How would the end result not be better than that??


I'm a little disappointed in the fact that you still haven't caught on that it was Lelouch who caused the Special Administrative Region of Nippon to fail. All of the Japanese were so excited to know that the fighting could end and they could have their rights back. The Special Administrative Region was working. It could have succeeded if it weren't for Lelouch. I can now tell that you're limited to thinking within the box created by the story's focus. You seem to forget that while the Black Knights are fighting against Britannia, the Japanese civilian population are getting treatment from the Britannians that's exponentially worse than how they were treated before Zero's appearance.

BTW: Truthfully I don't give a shit or two if everyone else on Earth died because of a war. I just want the people I care about to be safe. However, let me ask you: Do you think that people should die fighting and pointing weapons at each other?


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
I think you’re missing the context he says this in. He says this after she had to go through the pain of everything that she…well, that she went through. The truth, you could say. Anyway, he was sad to have to lose a friend, the way he did her. He thought maybe it would have been better…for HER. After all, when she regains her memories in R2 and he prevents her from committing suicide off the top of that building, he tells her that he doesn’t want to lose a single thing. He had already lost her once, and didn’t want it to happen again because he cared about her so much. When she died, he sobbed like no one’s business! He tried to save her by telling her to live, over and over and over again while she was dying. I have a hard time seeing how you can blame this on him.


First off, I'd just like to say: I lol'd at that part you typed so hard I decided to highlight it in red. Yeah... I'm such a pervert.

I actually spent five minutes thinking about that episode preview before I came to that conclusion (a lot of time considering that this is an anime).

The thing is, Shirley did protest for a bit before Lelouch Geassed her. More importantly however, you have to take his words and break them down. "Maybe it would have been better if I had just killed Shirley." If you kill a person by accident, the right thing to do would be to admit to your fault and try to atone for your action although it was accidental, and perhaps provide some comfort to the family of the victim. Lelouch thought about killing her, which is the exact opposite of what he should have done. Like I've already said: Thinking of killing Shirley means Lelouch is denying responsibility for his actions; Geassing Shirley holds the same concept. To respond to what I hightlighted in blue, look at the phrase in context again, and then thing back to Turn 2 when Lelouch recollects his encounter with his daddy.

Quote Turn 13: "I don't want to lose anything anymore."
Quote Turn 02: "Stop! You're going to take everything away from me again?!"

Notice how both quotes seem to focus on the pronouns "I" or "me" which refer to Lelouch himself.
He's not thinking about Shirley but himself. Further proof of that is how he chooses not to kill Rolo as soon as he sees him. Note that in in the beginning of Turn 14, when he lies to Rolo and says "Good job!" for killing Shirley, he has not put his Geass-blocking contact lens back on. That means he was fully capable of ending Rolo's life on the spot and chose not to do so.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Yes, but there is obviously something there that we don't know the full story about. If you watched the preview for the next episode, it made it clear that there was a continuation of the Rolo story explanation. Even still, everyone sins.

All the preview was was a response to Rolo saying that he knew everything about Lelouch. He was just saying that Rolo's brother had been Lelouch Lamperouge and not Lelouch Vi Britannia. And as to the naive response saying "everyone sins": Does that mean everyone can be forgiven? Even when they do things in malice can you forgive them? Lelouch, Rolo, and anyone alike-- they cannot be forgiven.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Schneizel would have killed them both and the Japanese would still be suffering. No war without casualities. And speaking of Fleija…oh man. Suzaku may have just gone insane from guilt after that. I mean, that laugh was unnerving.


So? After Schneizel kills Zero the Special Administrative Region of Nippon would have been established. The Japanese's suffering would therefore end. Suzaku was ready to sacrifice his life for the destruction of Zero and the realization of that possibility.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Ah, what the hell! Geassing (which is apparently a verb now, lol) someone and using a drug on someone is NOT the same thing! They both wanted answers, yes, but they were going about it in completely different ways. Do you remember the episode which dealt with Kallen’s past and her mom? They showed a scene where there were a dozen or so people under the use of Refrain in that warehouse or whatever it was. Those people were, I’m sad to say, pathetic. I would never do that to someone. I give Suzaku credit for not doing it, but it almost balances out with the fact that he even thought about it in the first place.

It’s hard to debate with someone about this when they don’t have the same principles as you though. If you really think that it’s the same thing, then I suppose there is nothing I can say to really change your mind.


Geass bends your will and forces you to do things you don't want to do. Euphie died being known as "Massacre Princess". The Tokyo Settlement was turned over because two people were Geassed. Geass can do some pretty horrible shit.
Yeah, being Geassed and being forced a Refrain injection are just as bad-- well, a Refrain injection could be worse if you're afraid of needles...
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.....u shouldnt even be putting up topics of defending him in this group that hates suzaku. its goes against the groups name!!! BOOOOOO SUZAKU SUCKS LIKE HELL!! (fyi!!! lelouch didnt mean to use geass on euphie, it just happened to run out of control! >.<) and i'd say refrain is just as bad as geass since u'll be stuck in the ugly past for how long? COUGH PRACTICALLY FOREVER!!! also the after-affects are just as bad. take a look at karen's mom!!
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Kumo-Chan wrote:

.....u shouldnt even be putting up topics of defending him in this group that hates suzaku. its goes against the groups name!!! BOOOOOO SUZAKU SUCKS LIKE HELL!! (fyi!!! lelouch didnt mean to use geass on euphie, it just happened to run out of control! >.<) and i'd say refrain is just as bad as geass since u'll be stuck in the ugly past for how long? COUGH PRACTICALLY FOREVER!!! also the after-affects are just as bad. take a look at karen's mom!!


Thank you for not actually reading my posts.

I explained how everything's still Lelouch's fault even though he didn't mean to use Geass on Euphemia.
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loltan wrote:


Kumo-Chan wrote:

.....u shouldnt even be putting up topics of defending him in this group that hates suzaku. its goes against the groups name!!! BOOOOOO SUZAKU SUCKS LIKE HELL!! (fyi!!! lelouch didnt mean to use geass on euphie, it just happened to run out of control! >.<) and i'd say refrain is just as bad as geass since u'll be stuck in the ugly past for how long? COUGH PRACTICALLY FOREVER!!! also the after-affects are just as bad. take a look at karen's mom!!


Thank you for not actually reading my posts.

I explained how everything's still Lelouch's fault even though he didn't mean to use Geass on Euphemia.


....okaaaaaaaaay there. but its actually not rly lelouchs fault, more like its geass' fault T_T;;
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Kumo-Chan wrote:


loltan wrote:


Kumo-Chan wrote:

.....u shouldnt even be putting up topics of defending him in this group that hates suzaku. its goes against the groups name!!! BOOOOOO SUZAKU SUCKS LIKE HELL!! (fyi!!! lelouch didnt mean to use geass on euphie, it just happened to run out of control! >.<) and i'd say refrain is just as bad as geass since u'll be stuck in the ugly past for how long? COUGH PRACTICALLY FOREVER!!! also the after-affects are just as bad. take a look at karen's mom!!


Thank you for not actually reading my posts.

I explained how everything's still Lelouch's fault even though he didn't mean to use Geass on Euphemia.


....okaaaaaaaaay there. but its actually not rly lelouchs fault, more like its geass' fault T_T;;


Isn't it Lelouch's fault for using Geass more than he has to?
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loltan wrote:


Kumo-Chan wrote:


loltan wrote:


Kumo-Chan wrote:

.....u shouldnt even be putting up topics of defending him in this group that hates suzaku. its goes against the groups name!!! BOOOOOO SUZAKU SUCKS LIKE HELL!! (fyi!!! lelouch didnt mean to use geass on euphie, it just happened to run out of control! >.<) and i'd say refrain is just as bad as geass since u'll be stuck in the ugly past for how long? COUGH PRACTICALLY FOREVER!!! also the after-affects are just as bad. take a look at karen's mom!!


Thank you for not actually reading my posts.

I explained how everything's still Lelouch's fault even though he didn't mean to use Geass on Euphemia.


....okaaaaaaaaay there. but its actually not rly lelouchs fault, more like its geass' fault T_T;;


Isn't it Lelouch's fault for using Geass more than he has to?


maybe so but its not like he WISHED for that to happen y'know?
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