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Post Reply In Defense of Suzaku
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Posted 8/27/08

kennethjardin wrote:


loltan wrote:



Turn 17: Lelouch's Head > Footrest

To those of you out there believe that Suzaku didn't deserve to step on Lelouch's head like he did in that episode, let me just run down a few reasons why Lelouch does deserve to have his head stepped on. I'll divide this into two categories: What Actually Aappened and What Suzaku "Knows".

What Actually Happened:
1) Lelouch terrorizes innocent people.
2) Lelouch kills innocent people.
3) Lelouch uses the accident of Geass going berserk on Euphemia to his advantage rather than coming out and admitting that it was his fault. (I predict that this may screw him over with the Black Knights somewhere along the line, not too sure though)
4) Lelouch uses Japanese people for his own megalomaniacal desires
5) Lelouch refuses to properly take responsiblity for the innocent lives that he has taken (e.g.: Geassing Shirley's mind to forget about him rather than properly aplogizing to her. Later, Lelouch actually contemplates killing Shirley)
6) Lelouch uses Geass in general to bend people against his will and do whatever the hell he wants at the victim's expense.
7) Lelouch doesn't know what Nunnally wants the most.
8,9,10,etc...) There's more, but I have not memorized every single thing about Code Geass there is to memorize

What Suzaku "Knows":

(Note: Knows is put in quotation marks because what Suzaku "knows" is what he has been told. He's been lied to more times than I have eyebrows. 0_0 Truthfully, I think the conclusions Suzaku comes to using the lies that he has been told are pretty logical ones themselves)

1) Lelouch killed Euphie in order to destroy the Special Administrative Region of Nippon* and formally declare the formation of the United States of Nippon while at the same time destroying almost all possiblities of Britannia making peace with Nippon; and that was after he just Geassed Euphie to massacre the Nipponjin (or Nipponers as I like to call them).
2) Lelouch terrorizes innocent people.
3) Lelouch kills innocent people.
4) Lelouch does not take responsibility for his actions.
5) Lelouch wields Geass so he can prevent himself from having to take responsibility for his actions.
6) Lelouch prefers violence. ISO: Unnecessary violence is bad.
7) Lelouch killed Shirley.
8) Lelouch used the Student Council members and the NKS (or JLF if you prefer) for the debut of the Black Knights in order to gain public support and more members.
9) Lelouch nearly blew up an entire mountain just to try to capture his older half-sister.
10) Lelouch used Suzaku to lie to the Nipponers and Geassed Suzaku to live in for his own survival.
11) Lelouch lied about being "an ally of justice".
12,13,14, etc...) Again, I don't have all of Code Geass memorized, I'm sure there's more.


I'm pretty sure these reasons look like they're enough for Lelouch to get his head stepped on at least once.




Basically all your arguments that are on bold font are clearly your opinions. When you were saying this is what suzaku knows what you are actually doing is assuming it. Besides your not Suzaku anyways. You are just assuming what he knows. And another thing when you mentioned that Lelouch does not know what Nunnaly wants you're wrong he already knows. And also what he is doing in R2 is a different thing. Try watching Episode wherein Lelouch attempts to use refrain. He realized that this rebellion that he is doing is not just for him anymore. Also when you said that Lelouch doesnt properly take responsibility, clearly that statement alone is your opinion and you're trying to imply to everyone that it is a fact. That alone is the reason why i deem your arguments as biased. Now when you mentioned that he uses japanese people for megalomaniac reason is another obvious opinion. Anyways, if you still have anything to say. so be it. im too tired to argue.




I love how you indiscriminately highlight every single thing under "What Suzaku Knows"

Every single one of those things is fact. There's nothing in there that's opinionated. Why? Because it's under "What Suzaku Knows" and not "What Suzaku Thinks" and certainly not "What Loltan Thinks". I can't really argue anymore because it's pretty obvious how dumb you are. Use the pair of eyes you were born with, look at the screen, read each point aloud, and use your head and think about how any of those points are opinionated. It may take you a while, and yes your head will probably hurt. But you can do it!

And as to the ones you highlighted under "What Actually Happened", I'll say the same thing: Think!

4) So does Lelouch not want to take over the world? Near the end of Stage 25 of season one, when Suzaku exposes Lelouch as Zero, he says that he will take over the world. He then says, and I quote, "In the end there was no real reason for the Japanese to be free right?" If that's not using the Japanese for megalomaniacal desires then why don't you define what is. Please rewatch the episodes if you refuse to believe me about Lelouch's words.

5) Again, the point I stated there is entirely fact. In addition to the Shirley example, I'll broaden things a bit by using the entire Battle of Narita as an example. After Kallen hears about the death of Shirley's father she asks Zero if what the Black Knights did was right. Rather than express any sorrow or repentance and the revive the declaration that the Black Knights were allies of justice and will only fight against the people at fault from the on, he gives a short monologue about how innocent lives are going to be taken and that because of that there'll have to be more bloodshed in order to make sure that the lives already taken were not taken in vain (Stage 13). How is that taking responsibility for the innocent lives he ended? Can you tell me when Lelouch does repent for his sins?

7) Nunnally said to Lelouch that all she really wanted was for Lelouch to be by her side. Lelouch ignores that and then promptly forgets about what Nunnally said. That's pretty much not knowing what Nunnally wants the most since she said it to his face.




Come on! Actually try to make things difficult for me! You're one of the easiest people out there to rebut against. Come back after you've assembled an argument that's up to my level instead of just highlighting pieces of my case and then saying, "That's wrong."
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you're just too hard headed to accept that your arguments are biased and now youre at fault if u want to win an argument you dont need to insult someone and call them stupid just to imply your point. now thats what you call immature. are you familiar with this quote? A fool shows his annoyance; a prudent man overlooks an insult well if i am stupid for giving out my arguments so be it. i can overlook an insult.
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loltan wrote:


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Brittania had never mentioned having a weapon like this, and they never HAD had a weapon like this in the past. Fleija had just been created and no one knew anything about it. Lelouch didn't believe Suzaku because Britannia is full of lies and there was no proof. Lelouch thought that Suzaku was bluffing, and I don't fault him.


Hey Zero! I have a WMD! It's on the Lancelot! Try looking! Do I have to take your head and turn it so that you can see it? Did you ever notice that different looking gun on Lancelot's butt while you were shooting at me? That's Fleija! You don't think so? Do I have to demonstrate? Try getting your ace to kill me using a new super-hax Knightmare!


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Lelouch is a calculating kind of guy. He understood that if he waited and used Rolo he could kill him later and get two birds with one stone. It wasn't that he didn't want revenge, he just wanted to use Rolo to the most that he could and get him later.
I remember you saying to someone on a thread that you were unforgiving. I believe that very much by what you've said about Lelouch. I also believe that the reason that you do not hate Suzaku more is because you hate his enemy more than him.


Lelouch is a selfish person. That's why he calculates. Killing Rolo turned from revenge for Shirley into, "I'll use Rolo to fight for me a bit and then blow him up to kill the enemy. By the way, did I mention I was avenging Shirley too? Oops..." The fact that he doesn't continue with killing Rolo after that is proof that he only thinks of himself. Lelouch will put himself as top priority, even over his sister who he claims to care about so much. The reason I don't hate Suzaku as much as Lelouch (I still dislike him overall, but lately he's been showing some coolness) is because I see his way as the more logical method. History has proven that nonviolent methods do work when groups persist and perservere. I also choose to look outside of the enclosed box created by the story's focus. If you don't look outside of the box, you won't understand why Lelouch and the symbol called Zero are so terrible.

Totally off-topic: The reason I dislike Suzaku is because he abandoned his family and killed his father. He was like Lelouch, but at the very least he abandoned his family in an attempt to prevent his people dying (Genbu Kururugi advocated fighting until death). Lelouch abandoned Nunnally for the sake of revenge. Not cool.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
A happy life? Not with terrorists going around and blowing up buildings everyday. Sure, they would be safe but that doesn’t necessarily constitute happiness. If there were terrorists blowing up buildings in my city I don’t think I would feel very happy. Lelouch wanted a stable Japan for his sister: a place where people were happy and not beaten on the streets like dogs. Obviously some of his reasoning (Clovis for example) was for revenge, and I acknowledge that. However, no one is perfect and I can’t damn him for wanting to know the truth.


Well... Zero's kind of the one leading the terrorists...

Also, although the thought and sight of seeing terrorists everyday is depressing, it's not enough to get in the way of someone's happiness as long as said person is not the victim. It's perfectly easy to achieve one's own happiness while he/she is a bystander to someone else's misery. Nunnally told Lelouch that she would be perfectly happy with him just staying by her side while Lelouch was Zero. Lelouch could have quit being Zero right there, but chose to continue on. He's selfish like I've said so so many times. Although Japan's safety would be good for Nunnally, I think it would be easier for her to find happiness if Japan was destroyed and Lelouch remained becide her. "Your own family's always the most important." should be the mindset that Lelouch has, not, "I want to find out why my dead mother got killed so I'll use a bunch of desperate Japanese to start a war with Britannia while totally ditching my living sister who's blind and can't walk." Nunnally's been through some rough shit. I think Lelouch ditching her to fight a war is pretty low.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Oh come on, you know better than to say that he was only trying to capture her to gather information. Part of it is sure, but it’s political. She’s an amazing military mind; taking her away would drastically weaken the Britannian army in area eleven.


Ok, fine. It wasn't just to get some information, it was to kill her or hold her hostage after getting the information and weaken the Britannian army so it would make it easier for him to find the culprit if it wasn't Cornelia. He's trying to get close to the Royal Family because he knows that someone connected to them killed his mother. His true motive is just revenge.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
That's completely unfair. He had no idea that there was such a thing as berzerk mode for overuse of his geass!


Short answer: Mao.

Long answer: C.C. explained that Lelouch's Geass might have concequenses if he uses it too much after Lelouch's first encounter with Mao who was using Shirley.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
If Lelouch had told the truth I don’t think normal people would even believe him. And even if they did, I still wouldn’t trust the Britannians. I honestly don’t think that they would have made up after that massacre. The people reacted so badly to Nunnally’s re-proposition…I just don’t think it would have worked at all.


You think wrong. All Lelouch has to do is demonstrate by Geassing someone. The only person you really need to trust is Euphemia, so no matter how racist and hateful towards the Japanese the other Britannians are, as long as Euphemia is calling the shots everyone would have been safe. The Japanese and the Britannians would have easily made up after the massacre because the Black Knights and the Japanese would no longer trust Zero because he kept the secret that he was a Britannian prince and that he had a magical power. The Japanese reacted badly to Nunnally's idea because they thought Euphemia commanded the massacre, which she did, but under the influence of Lelouch's Geass. Becides, the Black Knights did sell out Lelouch within one episode. Also, if Lelouch had confessed as Euphemia was running out to kill the first Japanese man, the other deaths could have been avoided and thus preventing the massacre.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:

Well seeing as I don’t think that the SAR would have even worked after the Euphemia incident, I can’t say that I agree with you at all. And are you an anti war person? Of course it helps! Things like this take time, of course, but at least they aren’t being oppressed. How would the end result not be better than that??


I'm a little disappointed in the fact that you still haven't caught on that it was Lelouch who caused the Special Administrative Region of Nippon to fail. All of the Japanese were so excited to know that the fighting could end and they could have their rights back. The Special Administrative Region was working. It could have succeeded if it weren't for Lelouch. I can now tell that you're limited to thinking within the box created by the story's focus. You seem to forget that while the Black Knights are fighting against Britannia, the Japanese civilian population are getting treatment from the Britannians that's exponentially worse than how they were treated before Zero's appearance.

BTW: Truthfully I don't give a shit or two if everyone else on Earth died because of a war. I just want the people I care about to be safe. However, let me ask you: Do you think that people should die fighting and pointing weapons at each other?


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
I think you’re missing the context he says this in. He says this after she had to go through the pain of everything that she…well, that she went through. The truth, you could say. Anyway, he was sad to have to lose a friend, the way he did her. He thought maybe it would have been better…for HER. After all, when she regains her memories in R2 and he prevents her from committing suicide off the top of that building, he tells her that he doesn’t want to lose a single thing. He had already lost her once, and didn’t want it to happen again because he cared about her so much. When she died, he sobbed like no one’s business! He tried to save her by telling her to live, over and over and over again while she was dying. I have a hard time seeing how you can blame this on him.


First off, I'd just like to say: I lol'd at that part you typed so hard I decided to highlight it in red. Yeah... I'm such a pervert.

I actually spent five minutes thinking about that episode preview before I came to that conclusion (a lot of time considering that this is an anime).

The thing is, Shirley did protest for a bit before Lelouch Geassed her. More importantly however, you have to take his words and break them down. "Maybe it would have been better if I had just killed Shirley." If you kill a person by accident, the right thing to do would be to admit to your fault and try to atone for your action although it was accidental, and perhaps provide some comfort to the family of the victim. Lelouch thought about killing her, which is the exact opposite of what he should have done. Like I've already said: Thinking of killing Shirley means Lelouch is denying responsibility for his actions; Geassing Shirley holds the same concept. To respond to what I hightlighted in blue, look at the phrase in context again, and then thing back to Turn 2 when Lelouch recollects his encounter with his daddy.

Quote Turn 13: "I don't want to lose anything anymore."
Quote Turn 02: "Stop! You're going to take everything away from me again?!"

Notice how both quotes seem to focus on the pronouns "I" or "me" which refer to Lelouch himself.
He's not thinking about Shirley but himself. Further proof of that is how he chooses not to kill Rolo as soon as he sees him. Note that in in the beginning of Turn 14, when he lies to Rolo and says "Good job!" for killing Shirley, he has not put his Geass-blocking contact lens back on. That means he was fully capable of ending Rolo's life on the spot and chose not to do so.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Yes, but there is obviously something there that we don't know the full story about. If you watched the preview for the next episode, it made it clear that there was a continuation of the Rolo story explanation. Even still, everyone sins.

All the preview was was a response to Rolo saying that he knew everything about Lelouch. He was just saying that Rolo's brother had been Lelouch Lamperouge and not Lelouch Vi Britannia. And as to the naive response saying "everyone sins": Does that mean everyone can be forgiven? Even when they do things in malice can you forgive them? Lelouch, Rolo, and anyone alike-- they cannot be forgiven.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Schneizel would have killed them both and the Japanese would still be suffering. No war without casualities. And speaking of Fleija…oh man. Suzaku may have just gone insane from guilt after that. I mean, that laugh was unnerving.


So? After Schneizel kills Zero the Special Administrative Region of Nippon would have been established. The Japanese's suffering would therefore end. Suzaku was ready to sacrifice his life for the destruction of Zero and the realization of that possibility.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Ah, what the hell! Geassing (which is apparently a verb now, lol) someone and using a drug on someone is NOT the same thing! They both wanted answers, yes, but they were going about it in completely different ways. Do you remember the episode which dealt with Kallen’s past and her mom? They showed a scene where there were a dozen or so people under the use of Refrain in that warehouse or whatever it was. Those people were, I’m sad to say, pathetic. I would never do that to someone. I give Suzaku credit for not doing it, but it almost balances out with the fact that he even thought about it in the first place.

It’s hard to debate with someone about this when they don’t have the same principles as you though. If you really think that it’s the same thing, then I suppose there is nothing I can say to really change your mind.


Geass bends your will and forces you to do things you don't want to do. Euphie died being known as "Massacre Princess". The Tokyo Settlement was turned over because two people were Geassed. Geass can do some pretty horrible shit.
Yeah, being Geassed and being forced a Refrain injection are just as bad-- well, a Refrain injection could be worse if you're afraid of needles...


Ok, this debate is getting no where apparently, so I'm just going to stop trying. But as a side note...I am afraid of needles. lol. Also, sorry it took me so long to reply. My internet was down.
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UchihaSakura4 wrote:


loltan wrote:


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Brittania had never mentioned having a weapon like this, and they never HAD had a weapon like this in the past. Fleija had just been created and no one knew anything about it. Lelouch didn't believe Suzaku because Britannia is full of lies and there was no proof. Lelouch thought that Suzaku was bluffing, and I don't fault him.


Hey Zero! I have a WMD! It's on the Lancelot! Try looking! Do I have to take your head and turn it so that you can see it? Did you ever notice that different looking gun on Lancelot's butt while you were shooting at me? That's Fleija! You don't think so? Do I have to demonstrate? Try getting your ace to kill me using a new super-hax Knightmare!


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Lelouch is a calculating kind of guy. He understood that if he waited and used Rolo he could kill him later and get two birds with one stone. It wasn't that he didn't want revenge, he just wanted to use Rolo to the most that he could and get him later.
I remember you saying to someone on a thread that you were unforgiving. I believe that very much by what you've said about Lelouch. I also believe that the reason that you do not hate Suzaku more is because you hate his enemy more than him.


Lelouch is a selfish person. That's why he calculates. Killing Rolo turned from revenge for Shirley into, "I'll use Rolo to fight for me a bit and then blow him up to kill the enemy. By the way, did I mention I was avenging Shirley too? Oops..." The fact that he doesn't continue with killing Rolo after that is proof that he only thinks of himself. Lelouch will put himself as top priority, even over his sister who he claims to care about so much. The reason I don't hate Suzaku as much as Lelouch (I still dislike him overall, but lately he's been showing some coolness) is because I see his way as the more logical method. History has proven that nonviolent methods do work when groups persist and perservere. I also choose to look outside of the enclosed box created by the story's focus. If you don't look outside of the box, you won't understand why Lelouch and the symbol called Zero are so terrible.

Totally off-topic: The reason I dislike Suzaku is because he abandoned his family and killed his father. He was like Lelouch, but at the very least he abandoned his family in an attempt to prevent his people dying (Genbu Kururugi advocated fighting until death). Lelouch abandoned Nunnally for the sake of revenge. Not cool.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
A happy life? Not with terrorists going around and blowing up buildings everyday. Sure, they would be safe but that doesn’t necessarily constitute happiness. If there were terrorists blowing up buildings in my city I don’t think I would feel very happy. Lelouch wanted a stable Japan for his sister: a place where people were happy and not beaten on the streets like dogs. Obviously some of his reasoning (Clovis for example) was for revenge, and I acknowledge that. However, no one is perfect and I can’t damn him for wanting to know the truth.


Well... Zero's kind of the one leading the terrorists...

Also, although the thought and sight of seeing terrorists everyday is depressing, it's not enough to get in the way of someone's happiness as long as said person is not the victim. It's perfectly easy to achieve one's own happiness while he/she is a bystander to someone else's misery. Nunnally told Lelouch that she would be perfectly happy with him just staying by her side while Lelouch was Zero. Lelouch could have quit being Zero right there, but chose to continue on. He's selfish like I've said so so many times. Although Japan's safety would be good for Nunnally, I think it would be easier for her to find happiness if Japan was destroyed and Lelouch remained becide her. "Your own family's always the most important." should be the mindset that Lelouch has, not, "I want to find out why my dead mother got killed so I'll use a bunch of desperate Japanese to start a war with Britannia while totally ditching my living sister who's blind and can't walk." Nunnally's been through some rough shit. I think Lelouch ditching her to fight a war is pretty low.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Oh come on, you know better than to say that he was only trying to capture her to gather information. Part of it is sure, but it’s political. She’s an amazing military mind; taking her away would drastically weaken the Britannian army in area eleven.


Ok, fine. It wasn't just to get some information, it was to kill her or hold her hostage after getting the information and weaken the Britannian army so it would make it easier for him to find the culprit if it wasn't Cornelia. He's trying to get close to the Royal Family because he knows that someone connected to them killed his mother. His true motive is just revenge.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
That's completely unfair. He had no idea that there was such a thing as berzerk mode for overuse of his geass!


Short answer: Mao.

Long answer: C.C. explained that Lelouch's Geass might have concequenses if he uses it too much after Lelouch's first encounter with Mao who was using Shirley.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
If Lelouch had told the truth I don’t think normal people would even believe him. And even if they did, I still wouldn’t trust the Britannians. I honestly don’t think that they would have made up after that massacre. The people reacted so badly to Nunnally’s re-proposition…I just don’t think it would have worked at all.


You think wrong. All Lelouch has to do is demonstrate by Geassing someone. The only person you really need to trust is Euphemia, so no matter how racist and hateful towards the Japanese the other Britannians are, as long as Euphemia is calling the shots everyone would have been safe. The Japanese and the Britannians would have easily made up after the massacre because the Black Knights and the Japanese would no longer trust Zero because he kept the secret that he was a Britannian prince and that he had a magical power. The Japanese reacted badly to Nunnally's idea because they thought Euphemia commanded the massacre, which she did, but under the influence of Lelouch's Geass. Becides, the Black Knights did sell out Lelouch within one episode. Also, if Lelouch had confessed as Euphemia was running out to kill the first Japanese man, the other deaths could have been avoided and thus preventing the massacre.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:

Well seeing as I don’t think that the SAR would have even worked after the Euphemia incident, I can’t say that I agree with you at all. And are you an anti war person? Of course it helps! Things like this take time, of course, but at least they aren’t being oppressed. How would the end result not be better than that??


I'm a little disappointed in the fact that you still haven't caught on that it was Lelouch who caused the Special Administrative Region of Nippon to fail. All of the Japanese were so excited to know that the fighting could end and they could have their rights back. The Special Administrative Region was working. It could have succeeded if it weren't for Lelouch. I can now tell that you're limited to thinking within the box created by the story's focus. You seem to forget that while the Black Knights are fighting against Britannia, the Japanese civilian population are getting treatment from the Britannians that's exponentially worse than how they were treated before Zero's appearance.

BTW: Truthfully I don't give a shit or two if everyone else on Earth died because of a war. I just want the people I care about to be safe. However, let me ask you: Do you think that people should die fighting and pointing weapons at each other?


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
I think you’re missing the context he says this in. He says this after she had to go through the pain of everything that she…well, that she went through. The truth, you could say. Anyway, he was sad to have to lose a friend, the way he did her. He thought maybe it would have been better…for HER. After all, when she regains her memories in R2 and he prevents her from committing suicide off the top of that building, he tells her that he doesn’t want to lose a single thing. He had already lost her once, and didn’t want it to happen again because he cared about her so much. When she died, he sobbed like no one’s business! He tried to save her by telling her to live, over and over and over again while she was dying. I have a hard time seeing how you can blame this on him.


First off, I'd just like to say: I lol'd at that part you typed so hard I decided to highlight it in red. Yeah... I'm such a pervert.

I actually spent five minutes thinking about that episode preview before I came to that conclusion (a lot of time considering that this is an anime).

The thing is, Shirley did protest for a bit before Lelouch Geassed her. More importantly however, you have to take his words and break them down. "Maybe it would have been better if I had just killed Shirley." If you kill a person by accident, the right thing to do would be to admit to your fault and try to atone for your action although it was accidental, and perhaps provide some comfort to the family of the victim. Lelouch thought about killing her, which is the exact opposite of what he should have done. Like I've already said: Thinking of killing Shirley means Lelouch is denying responsibility for his actions; Geassing Shirley holds the same concept. To respond to what I hightlighted in blue, look at the phrase in context again, and then thing back to Turn 2 when Lelouch recollects his encounter with his daddy.

Quote Turn 13: "I don't want to lose anything anymore."
Quote Turn 02: "Stop! You're going to take everything away from me again?!"

Notice how both quotes seem to focus on the pronouns "I" or "me" which refer to Lelouch himself.
He's not thinking about Shirley but himself. Further proof of that is how he chooses not to kill Rolo as soon as he sees him. Note that in in the beginning of Turn 14, when he lies to Rolo and says "Good job!" for killing Shirley, he has not put his Geass-blocking contact lens back on. That means he was fully capable of ending Rolo's life on the spot and chose not to do so.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Yes, but there is obviously something there that we don't know the full story about. If you watched the preview for the next episode, it made it clear that there was a continuation of the Rolo story explanation. Even still, everyone sins.

All the preview was was a response to Rolo saying that he knew everything about Lelouch. He was just saying that Rolo's brother had been Lelouch Lamperouge and not Lelouch Vi Britannia. And as to the naive response saying "everyone sins": Does that mean everyone can be forgiven? Even when they do things in malice can you forgive them? Lelouch, Rolo, and anyone alike-- they cannot be forgiven.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Schneizel would have killed them both and the Japanese would still be suffering. No war without casualities. And speaking of Fleija…oh man. Suzaku may have just gone insane from guilt after that. I mean, that laugh was unnerving.


So? After Schneizel kills Zero the Special Administrative Region of Nippon would have been established. The Japanese's suffering would therefore end. Suzaku was ready to sacrifice his life for the destruction of Zero and the realization of that possibility.


UchihaSakura4 wrote:
Ah, what the hell! Geassing (which is apparently a verb now, lol) someone and using a drug on someone is NOT the same thing! They both wanted answers, yes, but they were going about it in completely different ways. Do you remember the episode which dealt with Kallen’s past and her mom? They showed a scene where there were a dozen or so people under the use of Refrain in that warehouse or whatever it was. Those people were, I’m sad to say, pathetic. I would never do that to someone. I give Suzaku credit for not doing it, but it almost balances out with the fact that he even thought about it in the first place.

It’s hard to debate with someone about this when they don’t have the same principles as you though. If you really think that it’s the same thing, then I suppose there is nothing I can say to really change your mind.


Geass bends your will and forces you to do things you don't want to do. Euphie died being known as "Massacre Princess". The Tokyo Settlement was turned over because two people were Geassed. Geass can do some pretty horrible shit.
Yeah, being Geassed and being forced a Refrain injection are just as bad-- well, a Refrain injection could be worse if you're afraid of needles...


Ok, this debate is getting no where apparently, so I'm just going to stop trying. But as a side note...I am afraid of needles. lol. Also, sorry it took me so long to reply. My internet was down.


Yeah. Instead of debating you can gawk at the amazing power and stats of teh most powerful Black Knight evaR:

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Posted 8/27/08

UchihaSakura4 wrote:
I think you’re missing the context he says this in. He says this after she had to go through the pain of everything that she…well, that she went through. The truth, you could say. Anyway, he was sad to have to lose a friend, the way he did her. He thought maybe it would have been better…for HER. After all, when she regains her memories in R2 and he prevents her from committing suicide off the top of that building, he tells her that he doesn’t want to lose a single thing. He had already lost her once, and didn’t want it to happen again because he cared about her so much. When she died, he sobbed like no one’s business! He tried to save her by telling her to live, over and over and over again while she was dying. I have a hard time seeing how you can blame this on him.



loltan wrote:
First off, I'd just like to say: I lol'd at that part you typed so hard I decided to highlight it in red. Yeah... I'm such a pervert.


.....really? God, that is just not something a girl would notice I guess. I'll have to be careful the way I word things from now on.
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Posted 8/27/08

loltan wrote:

Yeah. Instead of debating you can gawk at the amazing power and stats of teh most powerful Black Knight evaR:



psh. whatever you say
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Posted 8/27/08

UchihaSakura4 wrote:


loltan wrote:

Yeah. Instead of debating you can gawk at the amazing power and stats of teh most powerful Black Knight evaR:



psh. whatever you say


Yes! Whatever I say! For my profile picture is ブリタニア皇帝ルルーシュ!
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Posted 8/27/08 , edited 8/28/08
Every single one of those things is fact. There's nothing in there that's opinionated. Why? Because it's under "What Suzaku Knows" and not "What Suzaku Thinks" and certainly not "What Loltan Thinks". I can't really argue anymore because it's pretty obvious how dumb you are. Use the pair of eyes you were born with, look at the screen, read each point aloud, and use your head and think about how any of those points are opinionated. It may take you a while, and yes your head will probably hurt. But you can do it!

wow, nice you just dont get it do you?Like I was saying the only one who doesnt understand is you. It is clearly an assumption because you're not suzaku how can you say that this is what he knows without assuming it? do you get my point? I think you're just too hardheaded to accept that fact.

Nunnally said to Lelouch that all she really wanted was for Lelouch to be by her side. Lelouch ignores that and then promptly forgets about what Nunnally said. That's pretty much not knowing what Nunnally wants the most since she said it to his face.

How can you say that? Lelouch didnt ignore that fact and besides in R2 he didnt have a choice he tried to pretend not to care at Nunnally to save her. If he were to do something then Brits would have killed Nunnally. Do you really watch Code Geass? because if u did you can see how Lelouch changed youre just too angry at lelouch. like what i said before how about creating your own group?

So does Lelouch not want to take over the world? Near the end of Stage 25 of season one, when Suzaku exposes Lelouch as Zero, he says that he will take over the world. He then says, and I quote, "In the end there was no real reason for the Japanese to be free right?" If that's not using the Japanese for megalomaniacal desires then why don't you define what is. Please rewatch the episodes if you refuse to believe me about Lelouch's words.


Now what im talking about is the present. it was in r2 that he mentioned that what he is doing is not for his own anymore. if u watched lelouch attempting to use refrain episode and the episode after that he clearly said something and besides lelouch isnt that bad and i dont blame him for his actions in season 1. all men are fallible , from the start he already didnt have something he only have despair. he was exiled from his homeland and was used as a diplomatic tool. you can see that from the start he was already being used. you cant blame him for wanting to change the world. and also in season 2 he accepted all his responsibility. i think it was when suzaku and lelouch met that he clearly said "all sins are mine" but in fact everything wasnt really his fault he just took the responsibility of what has happened besides suzaku never mentioned the things that you just pointed out in "what suzaku knows" . he said that he already knew that lelouch is lying. and agrees to help lelouch and both them agreed that they wanted to stop the war already. it was just because of kanon capturing lelouch that it didnt happened and lelouch felt betrayed because from the start he knelt at suzaku and gave his trust.

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Posted 8/27/08

UchihaSakura4 wrote:


loltan wrote:

Yeah. Instead of debating you can gawk at the amazing power and stats of teh most powerful Black Knight evaR:



psh. whatever you say


man, i agree with u uchihasakura, this man is just too stubborn.
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Posted 8/27/08

loltan wrote:


kennethjardin wrote:


loltan wrote:



Turn 17: Lelouch's Head > Footrest

To those of you out there believe that Suzaku didn't deserve to step on Lelouch's head like he did in that episode, let me just run down a few reasons why Lelouch does deserve to have his head stepped on. I'll divide this into two categories: What Actually Aappened and What Suzaku "Knows".

What Actually Happened:
1) Lelouch terrorizes innocent people.
2) Lelouch kills innocent people.
3) Lelouch uses the accident of Geass going berserk on Euphemia to his advantage rather than coming out and admitting that it was his fault. (I predict that this may screw him over with the Black Knights somewhere along the line, not too sure though)
4) Lelouch uses Japanese people for his own megalomaniacal desires
5) Lelouch refuses to properly take responsiblity for the innocent lives that he has taken (e.g.: Geassing Shirley's mind to forget about him rather than properly aplogizing to her. Later, Lelouch actually contemplates killing Shirley)
6) Lelouch uses Geass in general to bend people against his will and do whatever the hell he wants at the victim's expense.
7) Lelouch doesn't know what Nunnally wants the most.
8,9,10,etc...) There's more, but I have not memorized every single thing about Code Geass there is to memorize

What Suzaku "Knows":

(Note: Knows is put in quotation marks because what Suzaku "knows" is what he has been told. He's been lied to more times than I have eyebrows. 0_0 Truthfully, I think the conclusions Suzaku comes to using the lies that he has been told are pretty logical ones themselves)

1) Lelouch killed Euphie in order to destroy the Special Administrative Region of Nippon* and formally declare the formation of the United States of Nippon while at the same time destroying almost all possiblities of Britannia making peace with Nippon; and that was after he just Geassed Euphie to massacre the Nipponjin (or Nipponers as I like to call them).
2) Lelouch terrorizes innocent people.
3) Lelouch kills innocent people.
4) Lelouch does not take responsibility for his actions.
5) Lelouch wields Geass so he can prevent himself from having to take responsibility for his actions.
6) Lelouch prefers violence. ISO: Unnecessary violence is bad.
7) Lelouch killed Shirley.
8) Lelouch used the Student Council members and the NKS (or JLF if you prefer) for the debut of the Black Knights in order to gain public support and more members.
9) Lelouch nearly blew up an entire mountain just to try to capture his older half-sister.
10) Lelouch used Suzaku to lie to the Nipponers and Geassed Suzaku to live in for his own survival.
11) Lelouch lied about being "an ally of justice".
12,13,14, etc...) Again, I don't have all of Code Geass memorized, I'm sure there's more.


I'm pretty sure these reasons look like they're enough for Lelouch to get his head stepped on at least once.




Basically all your arguments that are on bold font are clearly your opinions. When you were saying this is what suzaku knows what you are actually doing is assuming it. Besides your not Suzaku anyways. You are just assuming what he knows. And another thing when you mentioned that Lelouch does not know what Nunnaly wants you're wrong he already knows. And also what he is doing in R2 is a different thing. Try watching Episode wherein Lelouch attempts to use refrain. He realized that this rebellion that he is doing is not just for him anymore. Also when you said that Lelouch doesnt properly take responsibility, clearly that statement alone is your opinion and you're trying to imply to everyone that it is a fact. That alone is the reason why i deem your arguments as biased. Now when you mentioned that he uses japanese people for megalomaniac reason is another obvious opinion. Anyways, if you still have anything to say. so be it. im too tired to argue.




I love how you indiscriminately highlight every single thing under "What Suzaku Knows"

Every single one of those things is fact. There's nothing in there that's opinionated. Why? Because it's under "What Suzaku Knows" and not "What Suzaku Thinks" and certainly not "What Loltan Thinks". I can't really argue anymore because it's pretty obvious how dumb you are. Use the pair of eyes you were born with, look at the screen, read each point aloud, and use your head and think about how any of those points are opinionated. It may take you a while, and yes your head will probably hurt. But you can do it!

And as to the ones you highlighted under "What Actually Happened", I'll say the same thing: Think!

4) So does Lelouch not want to take over the world? Near the end of Stage 25 of season one, when Suzaku exposes Lelouch as Zero, he says that he will take over the world. He then says, and I quote, "In the end there was no real reason for the Japanese to be free right?" If that's not using the Japanese for megalomaniacal desires then why don't you define what is. Please rewatch the episodes if you refuse to believe me about Lelouch's words.

5) Again, the point I stated there is entirely fact. In addition to the Shirley example, I'll broaden things a bit by using the entire Battle of Narita as an example. After Kallen hears about the death of Shirley's father she asks Zero if what the Black Knights did was right. Rather than express any sorrow or repentance and the revive the declaration that the Black Knights were allies of justice and will only fight against the people at fault from the on, he gives a short monologue about how innocent lives are going to be taken and that because of that there'll have to be more bloodshed in order to make sure that the lives already taken were not taken in vain (Stage 13). How is that taking responsibility for the innocent lives he ended? Can you tell me when Lelouch does repent for his sins?

7) Nunnally said to Lelouch that all she really wanted was for Lelouch to be by her side. Lelouch ignores that and then promptly forgets about what Nunnally said. That's pretty much not knowing what Nunnally wants the most since she said it to his face.




Come on! Actually try to make things difficult for me! You're one of the easiest people out there to rebut against. Come back after you've assembled an argument that's up to my level instead of just highlighting pieces of my case and then saying, "That's wrong."


oh hi there loltan you doing some arguing again huh

anyways it not that I'm against lulu getting stepped, I mean with what he shows there's no way suzaku can'T stop stepping on him.. and another thing is lulu was lying to take everything so suzaku got madder (?)... and also he does deserve a little but there are some points I disagree on your statements... well Ill give it one by one...


3) Lelouch uses the accident of Geass going berserk on Euphemia to his advantage rather than coming out and admitting that it was his fault.


well what he did here is TAKING RESPONSIBILITY... he does not justify himself on saying it was an accident.. like what he said to suzaku, even though it was an accident, when suzaku asked him about it, he said yes I ordered euphie to kille the japanese.. where in fact it was a lie.. I like lulu for doing that because that is what you really call taking responsibilty of actions... and first of all even though he said the truth no one will believe him.. because the existence of geass is hdden anyway...

now next thing...


4) Lelouch uses Japanese people for his own megalomaniacal desires


well in first season somehow he was sort of like this.. he just thinks of using the japanese and also about conquering Japan for nunally.. but in R2 he changed.. first of all if you watched the episode where he says he wants to have fireworks with his friends again, (rival, etc) he already changed.. he started to care for the japanese and also he said that this is not only for nunally anymore.. so this should be erased already....



5) Lelouch wields Geass so he can prevent himself from having to take responsibility for his actions.


can you state one situation where this happened? I dont really remember well so I need example =_=


Lelouch refuses to properly take responsiblity for the innocent lives that he has taken (e.g.: Geassing Shirley's mind to forget about him rather than properly aplogizing to her. Later, Lelouch actually contemplates killing Shirley)


oh this is sooo wrong =_= well first of all its war.. do you think the britains does care about the innocent jap they killed? they dont.. and well like I said its "war"... you dont have time taking responsibility for the innocent people you killed... and what Im saying "soooo wrong" is on shirley... first of all his reason for geassing shirley was to save her.. I mean now that shirley found out his secrets and all, he will have to involve shirley in the war, so what he did is geassed shirley for the sake of her safety.. he didnt want shirley to get involved because he liked shirley...

next...


7) Lelouch doesn't know what Nunnally wants the most.

7) Nunnally said to Lelouch that all she really wanted was for Lelouch to be by her side. Lelouch ignores that and then promptly forgets about what Nunnally said. That's pretty much not knowing what Nunnally wants the most since she said it to his face.


first of all what he is doing is for nunally but not what nunally wants most... so theres no problem with that even if nunally doesn'T want it.. because its what lulu wants for nunally.. and there's nothing stated in the series that lulu is doing what nunally wnat.. he is just saying that he wants nunally to have a safe world to live.... and also another thing... when the time came when he wanted to give up (the episode on the fireworks again), it was mentioned that its not for nunally anymore... meaning even if he wants to be on nunally's side, he can'T stop there anymore.. because he is not doing this only for nunally but for the others such as ootbk.. and this is another thing you call taking responsibility...

now next...


4) So does Lelouch not want to take over the world? Near the end of Stage 25 of season one, when Suzaku exposes Lelouch as Zero, he says that he will take over the world. He then says, and I quote, "In the end there was no real reason for the Japanese to be free right?" If that's not using the Japanese for megalomaniacal desires then why don't you define what is. Please rewatch the episodes if you refuse to believe me about Lelouch's words.


like what I said that was 1st season.. now he is not only using the jap... and another thing... what do you think is the reason lulu wants to take over the world? its not for his megalomaniac desires but for nunally... he wants to take over the world so it'll be safe for nunally... so actually its not for his desires.. =_= *sigh*




5) Again, the point I stated there is entirely fact. In addition to the Shirley example, I'll broaden things a bit by using the entire Battle of Narita as an example. After Kallen hears about the death of Shirley's father she asks Zero if what the Black Knights did was right. Rather than express any sorrow or repentance and the revive the declaration that the Black Knights were allies of justice and will only fight against the people at fault from the on, he gives a short monologue about how innocent lives are going to be taken and that because of that there'll have to be more bloodshed in order to make sure that the lives already taken were not taken in vain (Stage 13). How is that taking responsibility for the innocent lives he ended? Can you tell me when Lelouch does repent for his sins?


I dont know why you caaare so much about the innocent lives.. I mean come on its war.. =_= ofcourse lulu needs to be strong enough to take everything.. includeing the death of innocent lives.. because once he cared for them or regretted for them what will happen is their deaths are realy gonna be waste... I mean if his determination is only like that, then he shouldn'T have started a rebellion then.. if you get what I mean.. (I really hate explaining in english you know =_=)




Come on! Actually try to make things difficult for me! You're one of the easiest people out there to rebut against. Come back after you've assembled an argument that's up to my level instead of just highlighting pieces of my case and then saying, "That's wrong."








nownow why dont you stop insulting others again... you're getting popular with your insults you know.. and if you are that proud of your arguments, please learn to be humble.. because however high the level of you argument is.. if you're like that it justs looks that your such a low level cheap person =_= and short tempered too.. anyways thats all I can say =_=

CG BANZAI!!!!
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Posted 8/27/08 , edited 8/27/08
oh theres another looong argument.. too bad Im tired of quoting the other one =_=

oh and another thing, I dont hate suzaku that much already.. I do hate him still but I hate schnizel more... because schnizel brainwashed suzaku again... I mean suzaku was already ready to help Lulu where schnizels sends in the Army.. grr if it was not for him lulu and suzaku should be friends already.. THAT STUPID SCHNIZEL... and regarding the freya, its not suzaku's fault anyway.... well we cant avoid to say that lulu somehow got karma on that part... and those who still says its suzaku's fault please think first =_=
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Posted 8/28/08
hey jiggs finally someone who agrees with me. lelouch did mentioned that what he is doing right now isnt for him anymore or nunnaly. loltan do u actually read all my post?i keep on repeating the same things over and over again.
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Posted 8/28/08

kennethjardin wrote:

Every single one of those things is fact. There's nothing in there that's opinionated. Why? Because it's under "What Suzaku Knows" and not "What Suzaku Thinks" and certainly not "What Loltan Thinks". I can't really argue anymore because it's pretty obvious how dumb you are. Use the pair of eyes you were born with, look at the screen, read each point aloud, and use your head and think about how any of those points are opinionated. It may take you a while, and yes your head will probably hurt. But you can do it!

wow, nice you just dont get it do you?Like I was saying the only one who doesnt understand is you. It is clearly an assumption because you're not suzaku how can you say that this is what he knows without assuming it? do you get my point? I think you're just too hardheaded to accept that fact.

Nunnally said to Lelouch that all she really wanted was for Lelouch to be by her side. Lelouch ignores that and then promptly forgets about what Nunnally said. That's pretty much not knowing what Nunnally wants the most since she said it to his face.

How can you say that? Lelouch didnt ignore that fact and besides in R2 he didnt have a choice he tried to pretend not to care at Nunnally to save her. If he were to do something then Brits would have killed Nunnally. Do you really watch Code Geass? because if u did you can see how Lelouch changed youre just too angry at lelouch. like what i said before how about creating your own group?

So does Lelouch not want to take over the world? Near the end of Stage 25 of season one, when Suzaku exposes Lelouch as Zero, he says that he will take over the world. He then says, and I quote, "In the end there was no real reason for the Japanese to be free right?" If that's not using the Japanese for megalomaniacal desires then why don't you define what is. Please rewatch the episodes if you refuse to believe me about Lelouch's words.


Now what im talking about is the present. it was in r2 that he mentioned that what he is doing is not for his own anymore. if u watched lelouch attempting to use refrain episode and the episode after that he clearly said something and besides lelouch isnt that bad and i dont blame him for his actions in season 1. all men are fallible , from the start he already didnt have something he only have despair. he was exiled from his homeland and was used as a diplomatic tool. you can see that from the start he was already being used. you cant blame him for wanting to change the world. and also in season 2 he accepted all his responsibility. i think it was when suzaku and lelouch met that he clearly said "all sins are mine" but in fact everything wasnt really his fault he just took the responsibility of what has happened besides suzaku never mentioned the things that you just pointed out in "what suzaku knows" . he said that he already knew that lelouch is lying. and agrees to help lelouch and both them agreed that they wanted to stop the war already. it was just because of kanon capturing lelouch that it didnt happened and lelouch felt betrayed because from the start he knelt at suzaku and gave his trust.



1) You're still an idiot, I don't have to be Suzaku to know what he knows. Just watch the episodes and see what people tell him and what he thinks. You do get to go inside his head and hear his thoughts. "What Suzaku Knows" is what people have told Suzaku. Regardless of whether or not the information was truth, Suzaku can only base his thoughts off of those pieces of information because that's all he has, which is why those pieces of information are put under that column in the first place. You're argument is baseless as well as invalid.

2) I can easily say that Lelouch doesn't know what Nunnally wants because if he did he would have stopped being Zero in season 1. Your season 2 arguments stem out after Lelouch has ignored Nunnally's wish for half a year already. You need to watch Code Geass again or get a brain.

3) You need to talk about everything as a whole. Lelouch should be blamed for trying to take over the world. He should have been by Nunnally's side despite the fact that he was being used. Lelouch never takes responsibility for his sins. Taking responsibility isn't just saying, "It's all my fault, I did it." If you think it is, then you have some growing up to do. Lelouch never repents and he never atones for his sins. Why do you know this? He decides to execute an attack on the Tokyo settlement. There are millions of civilians there that were at risk and he still continued to fight.
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Posted 8/28/08
wow, real mature on calling me an idiot. and by the way you have the same arguments again and again, if you really read my post and jiggs_91290141, both of us already explained everything that needs to be explained, i think you just hate lelouch that much that you dont listen to reason.
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by the way if u watched episode 20 he was ready to take responsibility by shutting himself in with the emperor. remember when he said to the Emperor "now suffer repentance together with me in eternity" it was clearly taking responsibility for his actions, did it occur to you that he can just blow up the exit outside and not trap himself in there. He deliberately chose this action because he already knows he needs to take responsibility for his actions.
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