Post Reply If there is a hell everyone is going there.....
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Posted 8/19/08
A few days ago, I had an online conversation with my sister, who is an evangelical Christian. I too was an evangelical Christian once, as is my entire family.You see, I love my sister dearly and she loves me. In her eyes, I have rejected "the Word of God", although she and my mother place some hope in the doctrine of "eternal security" (i.e., "eternal security" is the belief that once you are saved, you will always be saved, even if you eventually choose to reject the evangelical perception of Jesus dying for your sins).

Can evangelical Christians experience a feeling like "the love of God"? Of course they can. I know that. I was one of you once. But at the same time, I know that deep in the hearts of many Christians is a lingering doubt, a lingering fear that perhaps your belief in Jesus is not quite strong enough to absolutely guarantee that you will be delivered from hell. And also that lingering fundamental doubt as to why a loving God would create hell to begin with (yes, I know, no doubt this has been the topic of many sermons, explaining why hell exists, I have heard all the arguments, believe me). I struggled with this for many years, and I know others have struggled with it as well. Of course, I can't speak for all evangelical Christians, and I wouldn't presume to do so, but all I can say is that I know that this fear can be very, very real. And I know my sister has it too, despite an entire lifetime in the evangelical Christian church. And I also know that her heart is filled with dismay because she greatly fears some of her loved ones are going to hell.

And so we had a conversation. It was about hell. Because I believe that despite what the Bible says, hell cannot possibly exist.

I'm sure all of you have heard the argument that a truly loving God would NEVER allow a place like hell to exist. It is a "traditional" argument regarding hell and has often been discussed in many a sermon. Generally, the evangelical Christian response to that argument is that God loves us so much that he has given us free will, so that we can choose whether to be with Him or not. And besides, he loved us enough to send his son to die for us so we could be delivered from hell if we only repent and believe, etc....These arguments do not ring true for me, but they do for some. As for me, I ....feel deep in my heart that a truly loving God would NEVER allow a place like hell to exist. A truly loving God would not even send THE DEVIL to hell, for do you think for one moment (assuming for now that the devil exists) that God does not love the devil too? Is not the devil indeed like God's prodigal son? But I digress...And let's assume we are using the "traditional" Biblical definition of hell, where people burn in agony in a lake of fire, apart from God for eternity. (Some evangelicals "soften" the definition of hell, saying that perhaps there isn't an eternal fire, perhaps you are just apart from God, or maybe you just cease to exist altogether - we'll leave those "kinder, gentler" definitions of hell alone for the time being).

My fundamental theory is that if hell exists, we ALL will go there, even "true" Christians. How can that be, you say? Belief in Jesus GUARANTEES us a place in heaven, does it not? But let's talk about my sister for a moment. Let's talk about my mother. My mother, assuming she doesn't have enough doubt in her heart to keep her out of heaven, believes Christ has saved her from her sins and she is going to heaven. Same with my sister. OK, let's assume some day indeed heaven is where they go, as promised in the Scriptures. And let's assume that my belief in Jesus was never quite strong enough to guarantee me a place in heaven. Let's just assume I'm going to hell.

My fundamental premise is simply this. How could my mother and sister be happy in heaven if they know their dear loved one is suffering eternally in hell? Indeed, knowing this, how could they truly be in heaven at all, for in their hearts, they would be suffering in hell along with me. They might not be in the fire, but they would feel it in their hearts, and after a while, heaven would no longer be heaven for them anymore.

Well, God will "fix" them, you may say. God will ensure they don't worry about their dear bother or son. God will ENSURE they are HAPPY in heaven. It's heaven after all, right? And we are PROMISED eternal bliss in heaven.

Will God then take away their compassion? Will God then erase their empathy for another? Worse yet, will God erase their very knowledge of their brother or son, thus changing them into some empty being that isn't TRULY my mother or my sister??? If I earned a place in heaven and my child was in hell, and God somehow erased my memory of my child or my compassion for my child, that would not be a God who TRULY cared about who I am. That God would be an imposter.

Indeed, my mother loves me so much that she might even try to make a trade. She might even try to take my place in hell so that my suffering could come to an end. Indeed, my parents might even want to do a "two for one" trade, they love me so much. So great is the love of a parent for a child. We digress again, for yes, I know, you might say..."That's silly. God would never allow such a thing." etc....

But the truth of the matter is that if I end up in hell, all of my loved ones end up there with me. Indeed, the more you think about it, EVERYONE ends up in hell this way, at least EVERYONE who has compassion in their hearts. Is this what a loving God would allow? I think not.

And let's talk about a loving God, a truly loving God. Remember, we are all God's children. Even the angels are God's children, and yes, that even means the devil (assuming the devil exists) is God's child too. Does not God love his children? Do I believe my own mother and father could send me, their child, to a hell of eternal fire and torment? Not for an instant. They could NEVER do that. I don't even thing they could do that to their WORST ENEMY, let alone their child. So if they couldn't do it, how indeed could God do so, because the love and compassion of God is supposed to be greater than that of any human being. Indeed, how could my parents, mere "sinful" human beings, be more compassionate and loving than God himself? That is a contradiction.

So Hell simply CANNOT exist or we ALL go there. (A corollary by the way is that there is no place in creation where God does not exist, so God would be in hell too.) Indeed, I would contend that God loves us all so very, very much that he would destroy the omniverse before he would allow a single one of his dear children to suffer eternally in hell. But of course that isn't necessary because a loving God simply wouldn't allow hell to exist to begin with.

Some thoughts to mull over......
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Posted 8/19/08 , edited 8/19/08
Read this book: A Divine Revelation of Hell by: Mary Baxter

it should answer some of your questions...

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Posted 8/19/08 , edited 8/19/08

AburaiRukia wrote:

Read this book: A Divine Revelation of Hell by: Mary Baxter


I have,. It is nothing more than a woman having a nde (near death experience). It is nonsense from a woman with a deluded mind.
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Posted 8/19/08
If that is your stance then let it be so since you obviously aren't seeking enlightenment.
The Bible says in

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
:5 And he that sat on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
:6 And he said to me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to him that is thirsty of the fountain of the water of life freely.
:7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. "


God will not go back on his word. The unrepenting sinners will go to hell and those who are born again in Jesus will go to heaven. We will miss those who end up in Hell but God, our comforter, will be with us. He won't hide the truth from us and all will be made new. We all are given a chance to be with him. Don't miss that chance by closing your heart against his word or seeking worldly things to fulfill your desires.

Matthew 7:7 & 8 says
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you: Everyone who asks will receive. The one who searches will find, and for the one who knocks, the door will be opened."


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Posted 8/19/08

AburaiRukia wrote:

If that is your stance then let it be so since you obviously aren't seeking enlightenment.
The Bible says in

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
:5 And he that sat on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
:6 And he said to me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to him that is thirsty of the fountain of the water of life freely.
:7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. "


God will not go back on his word. The unrepenting sinners will go to hell and those who are born again in Jesus will go to heaven. We will miss those who end up in Hell but God, our comforter, will be with us. He won't hide the truth from us and all will be made new. We all are given a chance to be with him. Don't miss that chance by closing your heart against his word or seeking worldly things to fulfill your desires.

Matthew 7:7 & 8 says
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you: Everyone who asks will receive. The one who searches will find, and for the one who knocks, the door will be opened."




I am quite sorry but if you can be happy while those you love are in hell we are fundamentally different people. You would have to alter my beyond recognition for me to be able to do so. I would not be me any longer.
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Posted 8/19/08

AburaiRukia wrote:
. Don't miss that chance by closing your heart against his word or seeking worldly things to fulfill your desires.

Matthew 7:7 & 8 says
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you: Everyone who asks will receive. The one who searches will find, and for the one who knocks, the door will be opened."




I have sought. I searched and I feel nothing. That verse is wrong. I am direct evidence of that.
Posted 8/19/08 , edited 8/19/08
It is true that God is a God of unfailing and unconditional love for His children. However, He is also a jealous God. And if we so choose to believe in other gods, idols or Satan. Then, consequently, we are held accountable to His righteous judgement. We are given plenty of chances as long as we are still alive here on earth to repent from our sinful ways. The Word of God is truth. You're still alive, are you not!? Then the search hasn't ended for you yet. You have a lifetime to seek the truth. You've only given up so soon.

Isaiah 55:9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Sometimes, only God has the answers to our concerns.
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Posted 8/19/08 , edited 8/19/08
i gave you my stance and I'm not one to argue so I hope you find the answers you are seeking. God bless and we all still love you youaredumb ^_^. Christianity is not a feeling. Sometimes when I'm at my worst, I cling to God more than when I'm alright. Even when I don't feel like God is with me I'm comforted knowing that he will never leave my side. We are mere mortals. It's difficult to understand how God works. So I agree with:


enneilujj

Isaiah 55:9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."


Oh and try reading "Satan is Alive and Well on Planet Earth" by Hal Lindsey. I'm in the middle of it right now and it's quite interesting
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I have some comments about Youaredumb's comment as well as mary baxter thingy. I shall post them later though. I really would like to say not to trust other sources apart from the words of God.
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YouAreDumb, I would like to say that if I could meet you in person, I really would love to sit down with you and talk to you all about Jesus, and bring you to any one of the services of my church. What I listen to, never breaks you down, never condemns you, but leaves you feeling washed clean, because they are such condensed revelations of Jesus' work and his person. And it is in the bible that says that the Christians need a constant washing, cleansing, not of the blood anymore, but of water, that is the word of Christ. And I must clarify that I am not the type of person to evangelise or share about God easily with anybody at all. I don't even feel comfortable about going to caregroups of smaller size. I'm not someone that usually says 'God has a word for you'. But this time I'm really sensing the Holy Spirit to tell you these things. If you don't want to read them all in one sitting, please save a copy elsewhere and read again.

Truth is I don't feel confident that I can pass the message well, but I hope you will take these and store them in your mind. Don't be too quick to respond, to me or to anybody about these things. Questions that we ask God will be answered, either by something that happens in our lives, or some revelation a long time later. But there is a time for everything to be released, and when you receive a revelation, you will slowly understand why an earlier timing is not suitable. It is not because that God hates to be pushed around, this is not an issue. It is because God has already planned the best timing for things to fall in place nicely for you. It is now more of a question of are you going to accept and passively wait for it, or listen to the things the adversary whispers to get doubts in your head.

There is so much about him in person that you've mistaken him to be. But one thing that is really true is that how God is to you is how you treat others to be. Angry christians tend to believe God is an angry God. Christians who focus a lot on the laws of the old covenant believe that only correct steps will lead them to God. But all these are not true as revealed by many apostles like John, Paul, in the book of Hebrews and Corinthians. God's heart is reflected in the person Jesus. God is triune. So is Man, mind, spirit, body. Would you believe me if I said that God, Holy Spirit and Jesus existed before everything? Yet that is so.

Firstly, angels are not God's children. Do not be mistaken for every being he creates to be his child. That is why angels are familiar with God, but they do not know God's heart. In genesis, God makes man and he becomes their Lord. This is not so for angels, they are workers for God. That's why Angels are often sent to do things, like send messages on behalf of God etc. Thus Satan was never God's child. But this said, it was not Satan habouring evil in him to cause this good vs bad thing. Lucifer was a high ranking angel, he was the worship angel. I can tell you a LOT more about praise and worship and how it actually is much better to do this than trying to figure out concepts of the bible on your own, but that's another 2 hr sermon altogether.

Next, God is love, but he isn't a weak love. What may be said of human love is like honey, it is limited, it cannot be burnt, or tested or it will turn sour. God's love for us is a righteous love. He loves you that is why He sent Jesus down as a baby, to grow up as a man, a Jew, to represent the son of Man. You know, in the olden days of the old covenant, the congregation had to follow the steps as described in Leviticus for sacrifice. There are 5 different kinds of offering, namely, sin, trespass, meal (grain), peace, burnt offering.

I am going to show you through some revelations of these offerings the heart of Christ for us. I pray for the Holy Spirit to unveil this truth to you as you read. As you may know, sacrifices often symbolize 'making up', 'restoration'. In this case, these sacrifices had to be made constantly, daily, as soon as they sinned. This was because they lived under the old covenant, where man was judged by law. Yet these sins were out of ignorance. Why do I say so? Say if you commited a faux pas, a social more (pronounced mor-ay), like sitting at a VIP seat by accident. This is an offense, but it wasn't accidental. It was ignorance of the truth of an unspoken rule that VIPs sit at that spot.

In the covenant of God, He doesn't count that as an unpardonable sin. An unpardonable sin is where man has completely rejected God, even after experiencing, and realising FULLY the gift of Christ, yet consciously rejecting it. You may wish to jump out here and believe you are this sort of exeption (just like some people proudly declare themselves bearing some sort of disease for 15 years, as though some sort of trophy), but I can say that you definitely are not going that way. The fact that you are pausing to consider about heaven or hell and God and Jesus is the pulling of God. And ONLY Christ knows, for he measures not our outward actions, our thoughts, our appearance, our illnesses, our flaws, our intentions, but by our heart. I can safely tell you though, that this pulling of God will not end, even to the end of your life. Some people are saved at their death beds, others earlier. You may even have been saved, but you got backslidden somehow. Let me just say this for assurance. Whatever judgements you pass unto yourself or anybody you call forth, like Balam who was called to curse the nation of Israelites, no one can undo what God has blessed. Salvation is eternal, unconditional, and believers are forever sealed into the bossom of Christ.

Let us go back to the offerings. I'm going to share with you a very interesting bit about Jesus, which I don't think you know about yet. Actually, the whole grain offering is a picture of Jesus Christ on the cross for us. In 'grain offering', the greek word for grain is fine flour. Fine flour is the most expensive flour, and its texture is extremely fine and even. This evenness is Jesus's character. Do read the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. Do you see Jesus from their perspective? These offerings take place in tabernacles, which is the place where God resides. In the holy of holies, there is a veil that has a picture of the four faces of Jesus, namely the Lion, Ox, Man and Eagle.

The four gospels actually represent these four sides of Jesus and God as well. In Matthew, Lion represents King.

You will see Jesus as strong as a King of Judah, his genealogy was mentioned, it tracks all the way from Abraham (Father of all Nations, the man who lived 400 years before the Law) to David (a King) to Jesus Christ. Now, in Matthew, there is more of Jesus and the time spent with Satan, with his tempting. "If you are the son of God, turn these stones into bread." Notice, Satan tries leave out a word: beloved. Right before this scene, God opened up the heavens and audibly said, that Jesus is his beloved son, in whom he is well pleased.

Satan was trying to force Jesus to forgo his identity as the beloved son and take authority, turning stones into bread. He was trying to say to find nourishment in the law. Stones represent the 2 tablets of law, while bread is leavened. I'll get back to it later when I talk about grain offering. Why was Satan trying to do that? Because he is powerless with christians under grace, and only through law can he rightfully condemn anyone, but even that is getting the christian to allow himself to fall under the law. So why does he say turn these stones into bread? Yet Jesus did not even listen to that nonsense. If Jesus did that, it wouldn't be faith. Because his identity is as God says, and not by proving with his power, which is relying on his abilities.

Now, who is more powerful? When you are truly powerful, you don't have to prove it. Children of God never need proof, because God's word is final. But man's flesh often doubts, when we don't see 'proof'. Being a beloved child of God isn't about 'receiving a mountain load of revelations everyday', isn't about 'forseeing the future', 'prophesying', it isn't even about doing, thinking, acting right! You are blessed just by BEING.

Now to Mark. The word 'immediately' happens a lot. It almost seems like Jesus was 'hurrying' all the time, to heal, deliver, and guide. This is a servant's attitude. This is represented by the Ox. A servant does not require a genealogy, thus it wasn't mentioned. A serving attitude is putting man in focus. If you turn to chapter 2, it mentions Jesus encountering the paralytic. He says in verse 5, 'and when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, 'My son, your sins are forgiven.' Disgusted the scribes questioned in their hearts, 'why does this man speak thus, it is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?' And Jesus perceived this in his heart, and immediately asked them 'Which is easier to say, your sins are forgiven, or rise, take up your beds and walk?' Now for man, the easier one to say is 'your sins are forgiven'. For to take up the bed and walk requires a miracle! Yet, for Jesus, forgiveness of sins is more difficult than healing, BUT he assures first, 'your sins are forgiven', then 'take up your bed and walk'. What does this say? Some people, when they are healed, they believe that it is possible to 'undo' the healing by commiting some crime. Same with the woman with the issue of blood for 12 years. If Jesus didn't intentionally wait and ask 'who touched me?', he wouldn't have been able to tell the woman that her sins are forgiven, her faith has made her well.' He didn't want the woman or the healed to go away thinking that they have 'stolen' a blessing. This assertion of assurance lets them know that there is NOTHING against them, the healing is eternal.

Then gospel of Luke =Jesus as Son of Man (genealogy tracked to Adam, the first man Luke 3:23), and in John = God. Notice how it starts off with In the beginning, was the word... God. God is unique, there is none like him, therefore there is no genealogy here.

Over 90% of Jesus' ministry involves healing of the sick, does this show you his heart? How about his attitude? You can never find one part where Jesus is a pushover. He is firm, but gentle, he is kind but he is not generous to a fault. He is so able, so mighty as God, but he is humble. He never bends over meek or weak in fake humility, yet his strength is so contagious that he only needed to speak a word to the uncouth fisherman Simon to get him to follow. Doesn't this remind you of evenness? All his character traits are good, and never one is dominant, all equal in portion. For man, one can be really nice, but naive. Another can be really smart, but uncompassionate. I believe, youaredumb, that you are actually more reflective and thoughtful than you let on. Don't you fret because you love your family but didn't say? Which of this isn't a vexation faced by man? Even I used to cry many times thinking of being seperated from loved ones upon death and all. If you doubt Jesus' ability for salvation of you, let us go back to the grain offering.

In the grain offering, Leviticus 2: 1-10, 'when any one brings a cereal offering as an offering to the Lord his offering shall be of fine flour, he shall pour oil upon it (Fine flour is soft to the touch, unruffled. Remember Jesus unruffled by all things, even the storm that shook the boat? Oil signifies and represents the Holy Spirit, the oil used is green oil, which is actually fresh olive oil. The seeds are pounded, grinded to create the oil, and cheaper oil is now golden olive oil, the most expensive of oils. Remember when Jesus first appears, and John the Baptist mentions that his baptism is of water, but one will baptise with the holy spirit that is Jesus? In Matthew 1:18-21, it is also mentioned that the baby Mary will give birth to is of the Holy Spirit? Oil applied to flour. Jesus is dependent on the Spirit as well. ) and he shall put frankincense on it. Frankincense represents Jesus as well. (also one of the more expensive and precious scents in those days as well) All of these is burnt, at the altar, an offering made by fire and notice 'a pleasing odor to the LORD'. Fire represents judgement. When judgement is cast, the fire goes through the frankincense, this releases a lovely odor to God. This capitalised LORD is God's heart. The hebrew term for it is Yahweh. This is God being reminded of Jesus, on the cross, going through the judgement in our place, yet releasing a sweet odor to the Lord. Remember he still cries out for mercy on behalf of man, as they do not yet see (ignorance of revelations, as mentioned earlier)

In the sin offering, a pleasant odor is not mentioned, because it reminds God of the ugliness of sins, remember burnt honey = sour? In the sin offering, the offerer finds a bull or ox depending on who sins, and when the priest has confirmed that it is unblemished, then the offerer lays his hands on the animal, and this transfers his sins to the sacrifice. This is why they had to do it often; blood of bulls and lambs and goats is not eternal. Once the children of Israel changed Gods, there was no more covering of sins from God's eyes. I would like to mention how the mercy seat in the tabernacle looks like. At the top, there are two angels, cherubims (males) facing each other, their wing tips touch one another. This is directly above the mercy seat itself, where the blood of sacrifices is usually sprinkled on.

The wings of the cherubims represent the eyes of God (That's why I say angels work for God) and as long as the blood of the sacrifice is there, what is beneath the mercy seat is not seen. There are 3 items beneath the mercy seat, that represents the rebellion of Man against God (the golden pot of manna that the children wandering in the wilderness murmured against), the rod of Aaron that sprouted, (because they didn't believe and required proof from God), and the two tablets of stone, the law. But because He loves man, he ordained man to carry out this sort of sacrifice until Jesus came down once and for all.

Notice that after Jesus has carried out all on the cross, he sits down on the right hand of God? When you have a beloved, you prefer them to be on your right, because it's easier to hug them this way (Most Jews were right handed in the past). God placed Jesus on his right, not for Jesus to hug God, but for God to hug Jesus. And God has sealed us in Jesus (if I have time, I might even mention the breast plate of Jesus, containing the jewels that signify all of us, and the 12 tribes of Israel, and even the wooden boards of the tabernacle with the silver supports, they are all pictures of Man and Jesus). Finally, Jesus sat, because it is finished. He also did say so. The work that is finished, is pleasing to God and gives grace. His blessings are for us. We are as righteous as Jesus is righteous. Our sins are covered in him. Remember I mentioned about the sin offering? I'll let you in on another secret. In the burnt offering, the other way happens: the beauty and perfection of the lamb goes into the sinner, thus exchanging 'fates' and the sinner walks away, better off than before. The cross wasn't just man's judgement on Jesus, but God's judgement as well. Jesus has finished them ALL. Both burnt and sin offering, grain, peace offering has been offered to God. The veil that blocked man from approaching (used to allow only the high priest = aaron to enter) God was torn, that we may approach him boldly without fear of judgement. That is because, dear child of God, your righteousness is not what you've done, not done, thought. That is why the bible says 'As Christ is in Heaven, so are you on Earth', and 'You are in this world but you are not of this world', and that is why today God says to Jesus 'The Lord (God- Father-protective figure) says to my Lord (Jesus-Son-beloved) Sit, till I make the enemies your footstool.' The place of rest today is in Christ. The way to resist the devil is not finding out all about it and rebuking it, but to go more to Jesus to partake. The bread of life has to be burnt. Flour cannot become bread without fire, pounding of dough, kneading, tossing. This is what Jesus has gone through for us. He who does not know sin to take this, that we who know no righteousness may come to God. The finished work of the bread is to be consumed. The easiest thing for man to do is to partake of the Lord, that is why he is the bread of life the bread is to be consumed daily, that is why it is more important to be sin conscious than hell conscious.

Hell was designed as the holding area for Lucifer and the fallen angels, man will never go there, unless they've commited the unpardonable sin. At the cross, Jesus says 'I will draw all unto me.' It doesnt' mean draw all man. It means draw all the curse, all the punishment, all the diseases onto himself. Even the earth was pitch black for 3 whole hours, of his total 6 hours on the cross. In your heart can you truly say that you believe Jesus wasn't enough for your salvation? Evil is not the opposite of God, it is the lack of God. God is knowledge

It was God that fulfilled God's measurements, according to God's knowledge. God was righteous in making you righteous. Because God did not spare his son, whom he delighted in and was well pleased even before earth began. Jesus was enjoyed by God and the Holy Spirit, they are interdependent. If you know God's thoughts of Jesus is, you know God's thoughts for you, because God gave him up for you, the finest of all treasures, far more valuable than all the riches of heaven and all the God has to give, he gives to you. The best gift of all is Christ Jesus. What is salvation, is simply accepting this gift of life. Man do not need to sacrifice themselves anymore because Jesus has done so. He does so precise so man does not need to. Because man cannot help themselves, that God helps them. He clothes the lilies of the field, he takes care of the fields, the tinest flowers, the lightest birds are fed. Swallows that are worth 3 for 2 copper coins (2 cents) are well fed, and nobody feeds them! According to the vast and wonderful knowledge of God, can you truly believe that his words are able to be backfired? Faith, doesnt' come from man. It comes when the word goes forth, as people read and hear the word that the holy spirit has opened up to them, that's when healing and salvation goes forth.

I really am glad you mentioned about the things you did in your post here, because since you know how much your mother loves you, surely you love her as well. But a parent's love for the child will never exceed how much the child loves the parent. The love of God for us and Jesus is greater than what we can love him back for. The only way we can love, is to first be loved, accept his love, get from him love, and spread it around, and love him back. Did you know that it was also a choice of Jesus to die? Jesus is love, he loves us and God to sacrifice himself willingly.

I hope I have conveyed these to you and all those who are reading this. For truly, I've spent 3 hours sitting here typing these, I hope you do read them carefully. These things I have learnt come from my dear pastor as well as what the spirit has revealed to me.
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Posted 8/20/08
Don't open this first spoiler, it's just your quoted post:




My fundamental premise is simply this. How could my mother and sister be happy in heaven if they know their dear loved one is suffering eternally in hell? Indeed, knowing this, how could they truly be in heaven at all, for in their hearts, they would be suffering in hell along with me. They might not be in the fire, but they would feel it in their hearts, and after a while, heaven would no longer be heaven for them anymore.


Psychologically speaking that seems unlikely. First off, you seem to be suggesting that over time the knowledge of your suffering would throw your mother and sister into a depression of some sort. Yet, a while back my mother’s father died.

He wasn’t saved.

She believes that those who aren’t saved burn in hell.

She loved her father.

By your theory, as time passed, she should’ve been driven into an emotional hell. Yet, she wasn’t. As time passed she regained her composure and went about with her life. You see, the initial hurt is always the worst, and as time passes wounds such as these heal.

Then there’s the fact that, when immersed in joy, people forget sorrow. My dog died on my little sister’s birthday. It may seem strange to you, but I was very attached to that little pooch. I was heart broken. But, my sister’s birthday was that day, so I put on a crooked smile and accompanied the family to a theme park.

At this theme park I was peer pressured onto “The Speeding Bullet,” and in the adrenaline fueled euphoria I forgot all about l’il ol’ fwuffy. Naturally, the ride stopped. I returned to the ground, my dizziness washed away, and I fell back into my melancholy.

Yet, Heaven is like a non-stop roller-coaster. So, it’s possible to-without augmenting or “fixing” anyone-bring them happiness even under the circumstances you mentioned.

However, I still think that-based on most Christian belief-everyone is going to hell. Why? Because according to so very many preacher the only passport into heaven is perfect faith. Yet, as a flawed being I cannot attain perfection. Short of -knowing- I can’t have perfect faith; therefore, by their standards, I’m condemned.

This being said, my recent studies of the bible have lead me to believe that God -will- reveal himself to us and I will know. Then it’s just a matter of picking heaven over hell. Does this mean that there’s no point in trying to be a Christian or believing to the best of my finite abilities while I’m here on earth? No, not at all. Why? Because those who linger in the dark often shun the light.

So, to summarize:

While I respect your intellectual opinion on this matter, I disagree. I think most people forget about their sorrows and move on. Naturally, I do allow that some would be haunted by the thought of their loved ones suffering. That does not, however, mean that all of us have will-at least not by your argument.

However, I believe that orthodox Christian beliefs contradict themselves. They say we can go to heaven, but to do so we have to attain perfect faith. Yet, at the same time, it’s impossible to attain any form of perfection.

So, my beliefs are still standing, but I do think you’re right in saying that orthodox Christianity is a touch paradoxical. Then again, there’s always the “mystic’s,” argument that you could apply. After all, Christianity is a form of mysticism rather or not we like to admit it. That’s something that I had trouble coming to terms with for a very long time, being so deistically inclined.


Addressing the “love issue”

Have you ever seen the movie, “Dead Poet Society?” I really loved that movie, and hated the father character who refused to let his son pursue his career. The father was older and wiser than the child and tried to lead his son down the correct path. The son, however, really didn’t want to do what his father expected of him. He wanted to live his own life.

.

When I was little I tried to jam a fork into an electrical outlet. My mother didn’t let me. I threw a complete fit over it. In Germany, where we were at the time, you’re warned not to use American appliances. They don’t work, and you want to know why? Because Germany pumps a much larger amount of electricity through it’s buildings. Could’ve easily been fatal…

So, in one instance being controlling leads to misery and death. In the next it leads to me living a happy life. The question becomes, “Where is what appropriate and why?”

Should God force us to live in his presence even if we may not want to?

An atheist boy on You Tube recently posted a video saying that he’d rather burn in hell than to accept or be with God, the same sentiment that Satan supposedly felt before being “cast” down. The reason being is that he said that he refused to accept that he was naturally lower than somebody else and because God was a tyrant. His pride wouldn’t allow him to be in God’s presence, so he’d prefer hell. If this is true, wouldn’t God be hateful for forcing something on him that he didn’t want?

Then again, after the boy gets to hell he may want to come out, but God cannot pull him out without removing the consequences of his choices and thereby the choices themselves. Which, in the end, results in the same thing-slavery.

The example you gave with your mother seems inapplicable to me because we’re dealing with two very different types of love. The Greek language was actually more effective at differentiating the types and degrees of love.

The love you mentioned would be referenced with the word Storge. Storge references family love, but wasn’t viewed as the ultimate love. Why is this? Because it’s this same kind of love that led the father figure in the Dead Poet Society to be so pushy toward his son. Ironically it’s also the type of love that led my mother to tug me away from an electrical spanking of terror.

Storge can be beautiful, but it’s flawed.

Your mother/sister love(s) you very much, right? They’re also believers. So, your mother and sister believe that you’re about to go to hell. Are they pushy with their beliefs, constantly trying to urge you to convert or do they respect you and let you continue on your way?

Imagine that you knew something that could save your mother’s life. Like, that a virus was about to be released into the air. In order to escape this virus you’ll have to lock yourself in a safe room for a very long time. Your mother, however, doesn’t want to hear it. She feels that God will carry her through the virus, if there is one. She doesn’t really believe you, she thinks you’ve gone mad. Your mother isn’t willing to commit herself to years in a safe-room because she doesn’t believe it’s necessary…

Would you force your mother into that safe room? Make her into a prisoner so that you don’t have to suffer the loss of your loved one? Or, would your respect her will?

The next type of love is a perfect love largely personified in the phrase, “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.” The word the Greeks used was Agape.

It’s very possible for God to give us the freedom to choose hell and still love us. It just means that if our positions were inversed that’s what he would desire. God would prefer to have free will and possibly fatal consequences than to be a machine.

So, I don’t see how your mother is evidencing more compassion than God; moreover, I don’t see how the existence of hell at all destroys the belief in God’s love for us. It just shows that his view may not be entirely the same as yours. Also, I don’t believe God throws us into hell. I believe that it is simply the consummation of our choices.

There’s always there argument, “but we have free will in heaven without suffering,” but then again Satan was “cast” out of Heaven, and there’s nothing that says that Humans cannot be “cast” out as well.


Postal Services:

Hell personified as the lake of fire, according to the Book of Revelations, doesn’t exist yet. Heaven does exist, but we’re not taken to heaven until the end of times. Where are we until then? The Catholics say purgatory, but I have another theory… Anyhow, fun talking to you.


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Posted 8/20/08
0.0 wow...I'll read all of this soon i promise...just not now
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Posted 8/20/08
I honestly don't know where to begin, or where to interject. Perhaps on a second glance.
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Posted 8/22/08
As usual, Faeleia's advice is one of the best I've heard. Thank you.
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