Remove this ad
First  Prev  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Next  Last
Neon Genesis Evangelion
6379 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
46
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

DKangN3 wrote:


ds0192234 wrote:
speilberg wanted the shark to to come out in the begining but it didn't happen. anno wanted a bigger budget and a different ending but it didn't happen.

that doesn't mean the movie and series would have been better if they got what they wanted.

it turned out great


So by this standard, the End of Evangelion was completely unnecessary and did nothing to improve the series. Considering no one fully understood the concept of the Human Instrumentalization Project, and why the last two episodes in the TV series took the convoluted turn they did before watching the movie, it's a stretch to try and compare this to whether or not the shark came out in the beginning of Jaws.

The ending of the End of Evangelion ran into the same problem. It was ambiguous, completely out of line with the rest of the series, and random. And as someone else has mentioned, anti-climactic. Before you try and argue with me, realize I'm not saying the series sucked. To the contrary, I'm saying it was pretty awesome, and it was progressing in this vein -- before the ending fucked it over. The endings to the TV series and the ending to the movie are both contrived, and both raise more questions than they answer. This directly opposes the definition of an ending.


duh wrote:
Then there's the existentialist notions of loneliness and isolation. The solution to this isolation is the Human Instrumentality Project which Gendo conducts. Oddly, he sets Shinji up with the power to create the new world after the Third Impact ends the current reality.

Anno leads Evangelion into a situation where Shinji is able to make the world however he wants. The possibilities are infinite. In the same way, our interpretations become infinite. Anno puts viewers in Shinji's place, allowing them to create a personal interpretation of the reality of the show and then apply that interpretation to real life.

What it comes to is this: Anno's designed the sci-fi world of Evangelion to become interchangeable with real life's complexities. He has made the world of Angels and Evas real.


Gendo tried to set himself up for power (Adam on his hand, etc), but Rei rejected him and went to Shinji (due to half-explained emotional attachments). Also, I don't agree that Anno did anything of the sort purposefully. The dude was clinically depressed while making this anime, and he was trying to express himself through it. You're looking for meaning in the silhouette of the Virgin Mary burnt on toast.


Fair enough, but that's only if you except society's definition of an ending. i personally was satisfied with the end of the series (although i realize i'm in the minority). When i saw the movie i realized i had to discard the ending of the series and watch the movies as if they took place after kaurou's death. It was an alternate ending rather than a conclusion, and I pose this question, if not that ending then which, how would you end it. I've thought about this question alot but haven't come up with anything. It could be the simple fact that the series peaked early and had nowhere to go but down after kaurou's death. I don't make the distinctions of what an ending should be, it's to constraining. In this case all i knew was that it 1) couldn't have a happy ending 2) no succesful epiphonies (see asuka getting pwned by the fake evas) 3) shinji would not change 4) zero chance of success. I can't think of a character i liked more than shinji, he was so akward and flawed and bursting with hormones. Is there a better scene in the movie than when he masturbates to asuka exposed unconscious body? It doesn't matter that the ending fell short in the eyes of some people,look at huckleberry finn, it is still by far the best anime i have seen.
6379 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
46
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

duh wrote:


DKangN3 wrote:


ds0192234 wrote:
speilberg wanted the shark to to come out in the begining but it didn't happen. anno wanted a bigger budget and a different ending but it didn't happen.

that doesn't mean the movie and series would have been better if they got what they wanted.

it turned out great


So by this standard, the End of Evangelion was completely unnecessary and did nothing to improve the series. Considering no one fully understood the concept of the Human Instrumentalization Project, and why the last two episodes in the TV series took the convoluted turn they did before watching the movie, it's a stretch to try and compare this to whether or not the shark came out in the beginning of Jaws.

The ending of the End of Evangelion ran into the same problem. It was ambiguous, completely out of line with the rest of the series, and random. And as someone else has mentioned, anti-climactic. Before you try and argue with me, realize I'm not saying the series sucked. To the contrary, I'm saying it was pretty awesome, and it was progressing in this vein -- before the ending fucked it over. The endings to the TV series and the ending to the movie are both contrived, and both raise more questions than they answer. This directly opposes the definition of an ending.


duh wrote:
Then there's the existentialist notions of loneliness and isolation. The solution to this isolation is the Human Instrumentality Project which Gendo conducts. Oddly, he sets Shinji up with the power to create the new world after the Third Impact ends the current reality.

Anno leads Evangelion into a situation where Shinji is able to make the world however he wants. The possibilities are infinite. In the same way, our interpretations become infinite. Anno puts viewers in Shinji's place, allowing them to create a personal interpretation of the reality of the show and then apply that interpretation to real life.

What it comes to is this: Anno's designed the sci-fi world of Evangelion to become interchangeable with real life's complexities. He has made the world of Angels and Evas real.


Gendo tried to set himself up for power (Adam on his hand, etc), but Rei rejected him and went to Shinji (due to half-explained emotional attachments). Also, I don't agree that Anno did anything of the sort purposefully. The dude was clinically depressed while making this anime, and he was trying to express himself through it. You're looking for meaning in the silhouette of the Virgin Mary burnt on toast.


If it was Rei's decision, that makes more sense. I was referring to the last ep of the TV series. I haven't seen the movies.

Also, you're right about Anno simply expressing his own depression. I'm pretty sure Eva is just a catharsis for the guy. He wants to be understood even though his view of reality is quite skewed by the depression. So the natural thing to do (whether he thought so consciously or not) is recreate the chaos of his own emotions. I can't really say the endings were good or not because that's not the point. I don't think Anno's endings have any meaning on their own. Eva has no tangible message. The point is that once you've seen the series through, you have a better notion of what it is like to be depressed and now you have to come to your own conclusions, discarding some layers and interpreting others. This is the same position Shinji is in and Anno is in. It's something we all have to do: come to grips with our reality, be it a depressed one or a healthy one.

Putting a value judgment on the endings of Eva will only get so far. Yeah, it's anti-climactic, yeah it makes no sense, yeah the story isn't very artfully or skillfully wrapped up. But on the other hand, Eva is such a personal story anyway that it feels more like an experience that just happens than something authored. If you didn't like it, who cares. It was created more for Anno than for you. That's the feeling I get anyway.


And that's the problem, isn't it? Conveying the creators feelings to the viewer. Anno may have wanted to be understood not praised for his work, or perhaps we were all simply witnesses to it. It's a damn shame, if they hadn't run out of money, we may have had the true ending instead of two forced ones.

Am i the only one who didn't care about the robots?

6379 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
46
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

DKangN3 wrote:


duh wrote:
If it was Rei's decision, that makes more sense. I was referring to the last ep of the TV series. I haven't seen the movies.

Also, you're right about Anno simply expressing his own depression. I'm pretty sure Eva is just a catharsis for the guy. He wants to be understood even though his view of reality is quite skewed by the depression. So the natural thing to do (whether he thought so consciously or not) is recreate the chaos of his own emotions. I can't really say the endings were good or not because that's not the point. I don't think Anno's endings have any meaning on their own. Eva has no tangible message. The point is that once you've seen the series through, you have a better notion of what it is like to be depressed and now you have to come to your own conclusions, discarding some layers and interpreting others. This is the same position Shinji is in and Anno is in. It's something we all have to do: come to grips with our reality, be it a depressed one or a healthy one.

Putting a value judgment on the endings of Eva will only get so far. Yeah, it's anti-climactic, yeah it makes no sense, yeah the story isn't very artfully or skillfully wrapped up. But on the other hand, Eva is such a personal story anyway that it feels more like an experience that just happens than something authored. If you didn't like it, who cares. It was created more for Anno than for you. That's the feeling I get anyway.


Let's just say he was pretty boggled when Evangelion became as popular as it did. But I'll admit, the (female) characters are somewhat endearing. And the dialogue of the series does seem like it was taken from his diary or something. "I shouldn't give up, blah blah, 'cause the meaning of life is to blah blah, etc."

And yeah, you're probably not going to understand what the hell he was trying to do at the end of the TV series unless you watch the movie. And then he has some random ass ending in the movie too, that made me go, "... wtf?" so have fun with that.

Huge problem of Evangelion, all the characters were two-dimensional, as somebody said. They never progressed and/or developed beyond their initial presentation -- the underlying story had such potential. That's why the half-assed ambiguous endings are so sour. You expect to see them develop past their emo stage, learning how to cope, and they certainly begin the motions when suddenly, The End. If the point was to show the futility of life, or be a statement about how fragile our grip on it is, fine, I'd accept it. But I don't get the feeling that that's it.


that's why i liked shinji, he only failed. he kept sinking and sinking to the point where he hardly had any lines in the movie. How the hell was shinji suppose to end his suffering. There was nothing but sadness in front of him, he is not strong, he can't just suddenly suck it up. When he killed kaurou, that was it, he had closed himself off from the world, no growth, no future, nothing. I'll admit I didn't fully understand the ending, but neither did shinji.
1704 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
25 / M / California
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

ds0192234 wrote:
Fair enough, but that's only if you except society's definition of an ending. i personally was satisfied with the end of the series (although i realize i'm in the minority). When i saw the movie i realized i had to discard the ending of the series and watch the movies as if they took place after kaurou's death. It was an alternate ending rather than a conclusion, and I pose this question, if not that ending then which, how would you end it. I've thought about this question alot but haven't come up with anything. It could be the simple fact that the series peaked early and had nowhere to go but down after kaurou's death. I don't make the distinctions of what an ending should be, it's to constraining. In this case all i knew was that it 1) couldn't have a happy ending 2) no succesful epiphonies (see asuka getting pwned by the fake evas) 3) shinji would not change 4) zero chance of success. I can't think of a character i liked more than shinji, he was so akward and flawed and bursting with hormones. Is there a better scene in the movie than when he masturbates to asuka exposed unconscious body? It doesn't matter that the ending fell short in the eyes of some people,look at huckleberry finn, it is still by far the best anime i have seen.


I'm assuming you think of society's definition of an ending as the fairytale one, where everyone lives happily ever after, and you're implying that that would be my definition as well. But no, my definition of an ending is pretty open, and similar to the one in the dictionary, i.e. a conclusion. The Evangelion endings didn't conclude much of anything. In fact, they did the opposite, by introducing new elements into the story, right before saying "but wait, I'm not going to talk about that, 'cause this is the end."

It was like, ok guys, Shinji has gotten over his problems, the world will be fine. But suddenly he's choking Asuka for some unknown reason before breaking down into tears. Ah, I see, so he really didn't get over anything. What?

Also, I'm not familiar with a Huckleberry anime, so I don't really have that frame of reference.

As for how I would have ended Evangelion, that's a pretty easy question. I would have had Shinji realize what a little emo bastard he was, and then come to terms with how to improve himself (which he seemed to be doing before they cut it short). Then he and Asuka could both learn how to cope together, as they both try to lead a normal life in the aftermath of the Third Impact. Note that I'm not saying they should hook up. I suppose they could, but it'd also be fine if Asuka would just regain the composure and vitality she used to have before breaking down (and briefly did whilst fighting the mass production Evas), and blew Shinji off, but this time he'd be man enough to take it and move on.


ds0192234 wrote:
Am i the only one who didn't care about the robots?


Probably. Would you really want to see an anime about the school-life of an emo school boy in Japan? 'cause that's what it would've been without Nerv and the Evangelions. I'm pretty sure most would agree that the appeal of anime and entertainment in general lies within their out-of-the-ordinary situations.


ds0192234 wrote:
that's why i liked shinji, he only failed. he kept sinking and sinking to the point where he hardly had any lines in the movie. How the hell was shinji suppose to end his suffering. There was nothing but sadness in front of him, he is not strong, he can't just suddenly suck it up. When he killed kaurou, that was it, he had closed himself off from the world, no growth, no future, nothing. I'll admit I didn't fully understand the ending, but neither did shinji.


The show was good because it followed a spiral of depression that many people could probably somewhat relate to, and it wasn't all happy bouncy anime school girls or "I-have-this-ultimate-power-that-I-didn't-know-I-had-and-now-I-am-happy-and-cool". In fact, how they handled Eva-01's ability to berserk was pretty well done, when it confused and frightened them as much as it helped. But that aside, if they were to continue following this trend of mimicking real life, no one is depressed forever. So Shinji would have gotten over it eventually -- or died. Either ending is fine. They ended with neither. I'm not sure why you seem to equate having no character development for Shinji with keeping him true to his character.

And about not understanding the ending, here's probably why. It had no meaning.
6379 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
46
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

DKangN3 wrote:


ds0192234 wrote:
Fair enough, but that's only if you except society's definition of an ending. i personally was satisfied with the end of the series (although i realize i'm in the minority). When i saw the movie i realized i had to discard the ending of the series and watch the movies as if they took place after kaurou's death. It was an alternate ending rather than a conclusion, and I pose this question, if not that ending then which, how would you end it. I've thought about this question alot but haven't come up with anything. It could be the simple fact that the series peaked early and had nowhere to go but down after kaurou's death. I don't make the distinctions of what an ending should be, it's to constraining. In this case all i knew was that it 1) couldn't have a happy ending 2) no succesful epiphonies (see asuka getting pwned by the fake evas) 3) shinji would not change 4) zero chance of success. I can't think of a character i liked more than shinji, he was so akward and flawed and bursting with hormones. Is there a better scene in the movie than when he masturbates to asuka exposed unconscious body? It doesn't matter that the ending fell short in the eyes of some people,look at huckleberry finn, it is still by far the best anime i have seen.


I'm assuming you think of society's definition of an ending as the fairytale one, where everyone lives happily ever after, and you're implying that that would be my definition as well. But no, my definition of an ending is pretty open, and similar to the one in the dictionary, i.e. a conclusion. The Evangelion endings didn't conclude much of anything. In fact, they did the opposite, by introducing new elements into the story, right before saying "but wait, I'm not going to talk about that, 'cause this is the end."

It was like, ok guys, Shinji has gotten over his problems, the world will be fine. But suddenly he's choking Asuka for some unknown reason before breaking down into tears. Ah, I see, so he really didn't get over anything. What?

Also, I'm not familiar with a Huckleberry anime, so I don't really have that frame of reference.

As for how I would have ended Evangelion, that's a pretty easy question. I would have had Shinji realize what a little emo bastard he was, and then come to terms with how to improve himself (which he seemed to be doing before they cut it short). Then he and Asuka could both learn how to cope together, as they both try to lead a normal life in the aftermath of the Third Impact. Note that I'm not saying they should hook up. I suppose they could, but it'd also be fine if Asuka would just regain the composure and vitality she used to have before breaking down (and briefly did whilst fighting the mass production Evas), and blew Shinji off, but this time he'd be man enough to take it and move on.


ds0192234 wrote:
Am i the only one who didn't care about the robots?


Probably. Would you really want to see an anime about the school-life of an emo school boy in Japan? 'cause that's what it would've been without Nerv and the Evangelions. I'm pretty sure most would agree that the appeal of anime and entertainment in general lies within their out-of-the-ordinary situations.


ds0192234 wrote:
that's why i liked shinji, he only failed. he kept sinking and sinking to the point where he hardly had any lines in the movie. How the hell was shinji suppose to end his suffering. There was nothing but sadness in front of him, he is not strong, he can't just suddenly suck it up. When he killed kaurou, that was it, he had closed himself off from the world, no growth, no future, nothing. I'll admit I didn't fully understand the ending, but neither did shinji.


The show was good because it followed a spiral of depression that many people could probably somewhat relate to, and it wasn't all happy bouncy anime school girls or "I-have-this-ultimate-power-that-I-didn't-know-I-had-and-now-I-am-happy-and-cool". In fact, how they handled Eva-01's ability to berserk was pretty well done, when it confused and frightened them as much as it helped. But that aside, if they were to continue following this trend of mimicking real life, no one is depressed forever. So Shinji would have gotten over it eventually -- or died. Either ending is fine. They ended with neither. I'm not sure why you seem to equate having no character development for Shinji with keeping him true to his character.

And about not understanding the ending, here's probably why. It had no meaning.


i was talking about Mark twain's novel "Adventures of Hucklrberry finn" but thats beside the point. you see what's marked in red, that's where you lost me. Sometimes people aren't strong enough to get over it, actually most of the time they don't. It would have ruined the anime if he got over it, although having him die may have been... an interesting ending. the feelings of unresolved problems, confusion and depression that shinji felt, we felt. there was no pretty little bow to this anime, no easy answers, no closure, just like life... for shinji anyway.

having no meaning and having no ending are two diffrent things.

The fact that i was effected by it gives it meaning.
1704 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
25 / M / California
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

ds0192234 wrote:
i was talking about Mark twain's novel "Adventures of Hucklrberry finn" but thats beside the point. you see what's marked in red, that's where you lost me. Sometimes people aren't strong enough to get over it, actually most of the time they don't. It would have ruined the anime if he got over it, although having him die may have been... an interesting ending. the feelings of unresolved problems, confusion and depression that shinji felt, we felt. there was no pretty little bow to this anime, no easy answers, no closure, just like life... for shinji anyway.

having no meaning and having no ending are two diffrent things.

The fact that i was effected by it gives it meaning.


If he isn't strong enough to get over it, they should have had him die somewhere between the beginning of the invasion of Nerv (like everyone else) and before the end of Third Impact, most probably from being liquified and merging with everyone else. That he refused that option bespeaks a development in his character, the beginnings of a measure of will that wants to live and survive with everyone else -- i.e. he's getting strong enough to cope with his depression. That makes no sense, especially when right after this development, they erase it like it never happened. It was a development that literally affected the entire world, so just getting rid of it is incredibly arbitrary (and a retarded ending).

And I'd say that everyone gets over everything, sooner or later, unless the problem stems from a physical/chemical problem. A beautiful waterfall or scenery affecting somebody's emotions doesn't mean it has some deeper meaning, either. But that's beside the point. Anime and other entertainment isn't real life, so leaving something completely unaddressed and unresolved is just bad storytelling.

Also, out of curiosity, how does Huckleberry Finn's ending parrallel Evangelion's ending? As far as I remember, Huckleberry Finn had a conclusive ending. The problems had all been resolved, and Huck was supposed to live with some family, but he planned on running away. Emphasis on all problems having been resolved.
6379 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
46
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

DKangN3 wrote:


ds0192234 wrote:
i was talking about Mark twain's novel "Adventures of Hucklrberry finn" but thats beside the point. you see what's marked in red, that's where you lost me. Sometimes people aren't strong enough to get over it, actually most of the time they don't. It would have ruined the anime if he got over it, although having him die may have been... an interesting ending. the feelings of unresolved problems, confusion and depression that shinji felt, we felt. there was no pretty little bow to this anime, no easy answers, no closure, just like life... for shinji anyway.

having no meaning and having no ending are two diffrent things.

The fact that i was effected by it gives it meaning.


If he isn't strong enough to get over it, they should have had him die somewhere between the beginning of the invasion of Nerv (like everyone else) and before the end of Third Impact, most probably from being liquified and merging with everyone else. That he refused that option bespeaks a development in his character, the beginnings of a measure of will that wants to live and survive with everyone else -- i.e. he's getting strong enough to cope with his depression. That makes no sense, especially when right after this development, they erase it like it never happened. It was a development that literally affected the entire world, so just getting rid of it is incredibly arbitrary (and a retarded ending).

And I'd say that everyone gets over everything, sooner or later, unless the problem stems from a physical/chemical problem. A beautiful waterfall or scenery affecting somebody's emotions doesn't mean it has some deeper meaning, either. But that's beside the point. Anime and other entertainment isn't real life, so leaving something completely unaddressed and unresolved is just bad storytelling.

Also, out of curiosity, how does Huckleberry Finn's ending parrallel Evangelion's ending? As far as I remember, Huckleberry Finn had a conclusive ending. The problems had all been resolved, and Huck was supposed to live with some family, but he planned on running away. Emphasis on all problems having been resolved.


huckleberry finn had the worst ending in the history of american literature, it just stoped after jim was kidnapped and became a tom sawyer novel. it was terrible, "a cheat" as hemingway said.

refused? I don't agree with you interpretation. anyway, shinji, was saved by his mother regardless of how he felt about it, if misato had not intervened he would have been shot, remember? people kept him from dying despite his desire to die. he remained stoic and indifferent through the rest of the movie. he didn't care anymore.

2804 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
23 / M / Staring in disbel...
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

DKangN3 wrote:


ds0192234 wrote:
i was talking about Mark twain's novel "Adventures of Hucklrberry finn" but thats beside the point. you see what's marked in red, that's where you lost me. Sometimes people aren't strong enough to get over it, actually most of the time they don't. It would have ruined the anime if he got over it, although having him die may have been... an interesting ending. the feelings of unresolved problems, confusion and depression that shinji felt, we felt. there was no pretty little bow to this anime, no easy answers, no closure, just like life... for shinji anyway.

having no meaning and having no ending are two diffrent things.

The fact that i was effected by it gives it meaning.


If he isn't strong enough to get over it, they should have had him die somewhere between the beginning of the invasion of Nerv (like everyone else) and before the end of Third Impact, most probably from being liquified and merging with everyone else. That he refused that option bespeaks a development in his character, the beginnings of a measure of will that wants to live and survive with everyone else -- i.e. he's getting strong enough to cope with his depression. That makes no sense, especially when right after this development, they erase it like it never happened. It was a development that literally affected the entire world, so just getting rid of it is incredibly arbitrary (and a retarded ending).

And I'd say that everyone gets over everything, sooner or later, unless the problem stems from a physical/chemical problem. A beautiful waterfall or scenery affecting somebody's emotions doesn't mean it has some deeper meaning, either. But that's beside the point. Anime and other entertainment isn't real life, so leaving something completely unaddressed and unresolved is just bad storytelling.

Also, out of curiosity, how does Huckleberry Finn's ending parrallel Evangelion's ending? As far as I remember, Huckleberry Finn had a conclusive ending. The problems had all been resolved, and Huck was supposed to live with some family, but he planned on running away. Emphasis on all problems having been resolved.


So I suppose witnessing the death (in physical form) of your mother doesn't leave you in a psychological shock. Shinji's problem is in fact evaluated to be an avoidant personality disorder, which were the results of his mother's "death" and worst of his father, who could've been his only emotional support to cope with the loss, (nor anyone for that matter) didn't want anything to do with him. However this problem also made Shinji more human than most characters in a story like Evangelion. Unlike Amuro Ray, Shinji never accepted the hero's calling usually associated in character archetypes, the role role was forced upon him. However, that set him apart from the rest of the other giant mech pilots within the genre and was what made him unique.

Also Eva (although it can't be fully understood, but at least everyone can agree upon this notion) is more about Shinji's growth as a person, the giant robots were just added to make it more interesting for people to watch. In the beginning of the series, Shinji was a complete introvert but as the series went along he began to make connections around people but still kept them at a distance, then at the climax of it all he forsook those connections and became and introvert. Why? Because he didn't want to get hurt. The resolution of the story is that Shinji has matured enough to realize the follies of selfish actions, and realize that life is more than comfort and security (hence the rejection of Intsrumentality), and has accepted all the flaws in life and within himself. Thus resolving his own introverted-ness and becomes willing to accept others into his heart. It's not a perfect closure at best, but hey neither is life.
6379 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
46
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

Shinji_Ikari wrote:


DKangN3 wrote:


ds0192234 wrote:
i was talking about Mark twain's novel "Adventures of Hucklrberry finn" but thats beside the point. you see what's marked in red, that's where you lost me. Sometimes people aren't strong enough to get over it, actually most of the time they don't. It would have ruined the anime if he got over it, although having him die may have been... an interesting ending. the feelings of unresolved problems, confusion and depression that shinji felt, we felt. there was no pretty little bow to this anime, no easy answers, no closure, just like life... for shinji anyway.

having no meaning and having no ending are two diffrent things.

The fact that i was effected by it gives it meaning.


If he isn't strong enough to get over it, they should have had him die somewhere between the beginning of the invasion of Nerv (like everyone else) and before the end of Third Impact, most probably from being liquified and merging with everyone else. That he refused that option bespeaks a development in his character, the beginnings of a measure of will that wants to live and survive with everyone else -- i.e. he's getting strong enough to cope with his depression. That makes no sense, especially when right after this development, they erase it like it never happened. It was a development that literally affected the entire world, so just getting rid of it is incredibly arbitrary (and a retarded ending).

And I'd say that everyone gets over everything, sooner or later, unless the problem stems from a physical/chemical problem. A beautiful waterfall or scenery affecting somebody's emotions doesn't mean it has some deeper meaning, either. But that's beside the point. Anime and other entertainment isn't real life, so leaving something completely unaddressed and unresolved is just bad storytelling.

Also, out of curiosity, how does Huckleberry Finn's ending parrallel Evangelion's ending? As far as I remember, Huckleberry Finn had a conclusive ending. The problems had all been resolved, and Huck was supposed to live with some family, but he planned on running away. Emphasis on all problems having been resolved.


So I suppose witnessing the death (in physical form) of your mother doesn't leave you in a psychological shock. Shinji's problem is in fact evaluated to be an avoidant personality disorder, which were the results of his mother's "death" and worst of his father, who could've been his only emotional support to cope with the loss, (nor anyone for that matter) didn't want anything to do with him. However this problem also made Shinji more human than most characters in a story like Evangelion. Unlike Amuro Ray, Shinji never accepted the hero's calling usually associated in character archetypes, the role role was forced upon him. However, that set him apart from the rest of the other giant mech pilots within the genre and was what made him unique.

Also Eva (although it can't be fully understood, but at least everyone can agree upon this notion) is more about Shinji's growth as a person, the giant robots were just added to make it more interesting for people to watch. In the beginning of the series, Shinji was a complete introvert but as the series went along he began to make connections around people but still kept them at a distance, then at the climax of it all he forsook those connections and became and introvert. Why? Because he didn't want to get hurt. The resolution of the story is that Shinji has matured enough to realize the follies of selfish actions, and realize that life is more than comfort and security (hence the rejection of Intsrumentality), and has accepted all the flaws in life and within himself. Thus resolving his own introverted-ness and becomes willing to accept others into his heart. It's not a perfect closure at best, but hey neither is life.


agree with the first part not with the second. shinji was dragged around through out the entire movie. he was completely depressed. he is the most human character i've seen in anime, cowardly and selfish.

oh wait, are you talking about the anime ending, then I agree

1704 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
25 / M / California
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

ds0192234 wrote:
huckleberry finn had the worst ending in the history of american literature, it just stoped after jim was kidnapped and became a tom sawyer novel. it was terrible, "a cheat" as hemingway said.

refused? I don't agree with you interpretation. anyway, shinji, was saved by his mother regardless of how he felt about it, if misato had not intervened he would have been shot, remember? people kept him from dying despite his desire to die. he remained stoic and indifferent through the rest of the movie. he didn't care anymore.


Ok. Everybody melted, and he would have too, but he rejected Rei, resulting in her "death" (in the movie). That was the entire point of those mind-game episodes that ended with everybody clapping and congratulating him on finally reaching a conclusion. Why would he have done that if he were suicidal? So here we see some development. Yet as soon as he's back on the ground, he chokes Asuka and then begins to cry. Why is that? No one knows. Completely random ending, i.e. it sucks.


Shinji_Ikari wrote:
So I suppose witnessing the death (in physical form) of your mother doesn't leave you in a psychological shock. Shinji's problem is in fact evaluated to be an avoidant personality disorder, which were the results of his mother's "death" and worst of his father, who could've been his only emotional support to cope with the loss, (nor anyone for that matter) didn't want anything to do with him. However this problem also made Shinji more human than most characters in a story like Evangelion. Unlike Amuro Ray, Shinji never accepted the hero's calling usually associated in character archetypes, the role role was forced upon him. However, that set him apart from the rest of the other giant mech pilots within the genre and was what made him unique.

Also Eva (although it can't be fully understood, but at least everyone can agree upon this notion) is more about Shinji's growth as a person, the giant robots were just added to make it more interesting for people to watch. In the beginning of the series, Shinji was a complete introvert but as the series went along he began to make connections around people but still kept them at a distance, then at the climax of it all he forsook those connections and became and introvert. Why? Because he didn't want to get hurt. The resolution of the story is that Shinji has matured enough to realize the follies of selfish actions, and realize that life is more than comfort and security (hence the rejection of Intsrumentality), and has accepted all the flaws in life and within himself. Thus resolving his own introverted-ness and becomes willing to accept others into his heart. It's not a perfect closure at best, but hey neither is life.


He was too young to remember his mother's death -- they clearly state this. I'd reword that to, the result of a lack of motherly care, and the abandonment by his father. But anyway.

What growth? He was the same character at the end of the series as he was at the beginning. There were a few half-assed motions at development, but they never took. I thought that he'd developed past his emo stage too when he rejects Intrumentality -- until he starts trying to choke Asuka before breaking down into tears. What the hell?

Saying "Hey, nothing is perfect!" does not make it good. There was no resolution to his problem. There was no closure. The story just simply stopped.
duh
563 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M / Hawai`i
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

leviathan343 wrote:
What, Naruto or Neon Genesis Evangelion?


Evangelion is great. I don't like Naruto. I just couldn't get into it because of what you said about smoothing it for 10-year old boys that want to be ninjas. That "smoothing" seems to limit it too much for me to enjoy.
2804 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
23 / M / Staring in disbel...
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

DKangN3 wrote:


Shinji_Ikari wrote:
So I suppose witnessing the death (in physical form) of your mother doesn't leave you in a psychological shock. Shinji's problem is in fact evaluated to be an avoidant personality disorder, which were the results of his mother's "death" and worst of his father, who could've been his only emotional support to cope with the loss, (nor anyone for that matter) didn't want anything to do with him. However this problem also made Shinji more human than most characters in a story like Evangelion. Unlike Amuro Ray, Shinji never accepted the hero's calling usually associated in character archetypes, the role role was forced upon him. However, that set him apart from the rest of the other giant mech pilots within the genre and was what made him unique.

Also Eva (although it can't be fully understood, but at least everyone can agree upon this notion) is more about Shinji's growth as a person, the giant robots were just added to make it more interesting for people to watch. In the beginning of the series, Shinji was a complete introvert but as the series went along he began to make connections around people but still kept them at a distance, then at the climax of it all he forsook those connections and became and introvert. Why? Because he didn't want to get hurt. The resolution of the story is that Shinji has matured enough to realize the follies of selfish actions, and realize that life is more than comfort and security (hence the rejection of Intsrumentality), and has accepted all the flaws in life and within himself. Thus resolving his own introverted-ness and becomes willing to accept others into his heart. It's not a perfect closure at best, but hey neither is life.


He was too young to remember his mother's death -- they clearly state this. I'd reword that to, the result of a lack of motherly care, and the abandonment by his father. But anyway.

What growth? He was the same character at the end of the series as he was at the beginning. There were a few half-assed motions at development, but they never took. I thought that he'd developed past his emo stage too when he rejects Intrumentality -- until he starts trying to choke Asuka before breaking down into tears. What the hell?

Saying "Hey, nothing is perfect!" does not make it good. There was no resolution to his problem. There was no closure. The story just simply stopped.





My evidence against your first answer.

Shinji's growth is in small increments at a time, just having the courage to reject Instrumentality is a huge step towards his growth. Where he avoided the bad things in the past, and sought comfort with the familiar. Shinji choking Asuka may be theorized that he was asking if she would accept him and the world he was created, which is a radical change in his character since we don't see him taking any action in anything unless coerced into doing so. However, whether you may accept this theory or not is up to you, but you must admit something like that is against his personality where he is unusually restrained and controllable (for lack of better words).

For your third answer, it lies within my last paragraph of my last post.


Also Eva (although it can't be fully understood, but at least everyone can agree upon this notion) is more about Shinji's growth as a person, the giant robots were just added to make it more interesting for people to watch. In the beginning of the series, Shinji was a complete introvert but as the series went along he began to make connections around people but still kept them at a distance, then at the climax of it all he forsook those connections and became and introvert. Why? Because he didn't want to get hurt. The resolution of the story is that Shinji has matured enough to realize the follies of selfish actions, and realize that life is more than comfort and security (hence the rejection of Intsrumentality), and has accepted all the flaws in life and within himself. Thus resolving his own introverted-ness and becomes willing to accept others into his heart. It's not a perfect closure at best, but hey neither is life.


6379 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
46
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

DKangN3 wrote:


ds0192234 wrote:
huckleberry finn had the worst ending in the history of american literature, it just stoped after jim was kidnapped and became a tom sawyer novel. it was terrible, "a cheat" as hemingway said.

refused? I don't agree with you interpretation. anyway, shinji, was saved by his mother regardless of how he felt about it, if misato had not intervened he would have been shot, remember? people kept him from dying despite his desire to die. he remained stoic and indifferent through the rest of the movie. he didn't care anymore.


Ok. Everybody melted, and he would have too, but he rejected Rei, resulting in her "death" (in the movie). That was the entire point of those mind-game episodes that ended with everybody clapping and congratulating him on finally reaching a conclusion. Why would he have done that if he were suicidal? So here we see some development. Yet as soon as he's back on the ground, he chokes Asuka and then begins to cry. Why is that? No one knows. Completely random ending, i.e. it sucks.


Shinji_Ikari wrote:
So I suppose witnessing the death (in physical form) of your mother doesn't leave you in a psychological shock. Shinji's problem is in fact evaluated to be an avoidant personality disorder, which were the results of his mother's "death" and worst of his father, who could've been his only emotional support to cope with the loss, (nor anyone for that matter) didn't want anything to do with him. However this problem also made Shinji more human than most characters in a story like Evangelion. Unlike Amuro Ray, Shinji never accepted the hero's calling usually associated in character archetypes, the role role was forced upon him. However, that set him apart from the rest of the other giant mech pilots within the genre and was what made him unique.

Also Eva (although it can't be fully understood, but at least everyone can agree upon this notion) is more about Shinji's growth as a person, the giant robots were just added to make it more interesting for people to watch. In the beginning of the series, Shinji was a complete introvert but as the series went along he began to make connections around people but still kept them at a distance, then at the climax of it all he forsook those connections and became and introvert. Why? Because he didn't want to get hurt. The resolution of the story is that Shinji has matured enough to realize the follies of selfish actions, and realize that life is more than comfort and security (hence the rejection of Intsrumentality), and has accepted all the flaws in life and within himself. Thus resolving his own introverted-ness and becomes willing to accept others into his heart. It's not a perfect closure at best, but hey neither is life.


He was too young to remember his mother's death -- they clearly state this. I'd reword that to, the result of a lack of motherly care, and the abandonment by his father. But anyway.

What growth? He was the same character at the end of the series as he was at the beginning. There were a few half-assed motions at development, but they never took. I thought that he'd developed past his emo stage too when he rejects Intrumentality -- until he starts trying to choke Asuka before breaking down into tears. What the hell?

Saying "Hey, nothing is perfect!" does not make it good. There was no resolution to his problem. There was no closure. The story just simply stopped.


you have to choose. the anime ending or the movie ending, they both took place after kaurous death and have nothing to do with each other.
306 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
24 / M / Australia - Adelaide
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08
You don't have to like an anime just because of the ending, Neon genesis was good but I don't dislike it because the endings were completely disappointing.
2804 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
23 / M / Staring in disbel...
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

Chirimo wrote:

You don't have to like an anime just because of the ending, Neon genesis was good but I don't dislike it because the endings were completely disappointing.


It's all how you look at it. To me I wasn't disappointed, looking at how on two episodes (The battle against Leliel and ep. 20) the story focused less on events happening in the story and more so the psyche of Shinji.
306 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
24 / M / Australia - Adelaide
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

Shinji_Ikari wrote:


Chirimo wrote:

You don't have to like an anime just because of the ending, Neon genesis was good but I don't dislike it because the endings were completely disappointing.


It's all how you look at it. To me I wasn't disappointed, looking at how on two episodes (The battle against Leliel and ep. 20) the story focused less on events happening in the story and more so the psyche of Shinji.


But Shinji to me was a horrible character, he was used more like a tool than a human being. I heard he's alot better in the Manga, not so whiny.
2804 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
23 / M / Staring in disbel...
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

Chirimo wrote:


Shinji_Ikari wrote:


Chirimo wrote:

You don't have to like an anime just because of the ending, Neon genesis was good but I don't dislike it because the endings were completely disappointing.


It's all how you look at it. To me I wasn't disappointed, looking at how on two episodes (The battle against Leliel and ep. 20) the story focused less on events happening in the story and more so the psyche of Shinji.


But Shinji to me was a horrible character, he was used more like a tool than a human being. I heard he's alot better in the Manga, not so whiny.


It's his personality, and in the Manga he's just as easily controllable like his anime persona. Just he his anime persona would only dream of of hitting Gendo, though what he did instead was just as easily commendable.
1704 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
25 / M / California
Offline
Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

Shinji_Ikari wrote:
Shinji's growth is in small increments at a time, just having the courage to reject Instrumentality is a huge step towards his growth. Where he avoided the bad things in the past, and sought comfort with the familiar. Shinji choking Asuka may be theorized that he was asking if she would accept him and the world he was created, which is a radical change in his character since we don't see him taking any action in anything unless coerced into doing so. However, whether you may accept this theory or not is up to you, but you must admit something like that is against his personality where he is unusually restrained and controllable (for lack of better words).

For your third answer, it lies within my last paragraph of my last post.


Also Eva (although it can't be fully understood, but at least everyone can agree upon this notion) is more about Shinji's growth as a person, the giant robots were just added to make it more interesting for people to watch. In the beginning of the series, Shinji was a complete introvert but as the series went along he began to make connections around people but still kept them at a distance, then at the climax of it all he forsook those connections and became and introvert. Why? Because he didn't want to get hurt. The resolution of the story is that Shinji has matured enough to realize the follies of selfish actions, and realize that life is more than comfort and security (hence the rejection of Intsrumentality), and has accepted all the flaws in life and within himself. Thus resolving his own introverted-ness and becomes willing to accept others into his heart. It's not a perfect closure at best, but hey neither is life.



Never seen the manga, but in the anime they say something along the lines of, "No, you were too young to remember it." and Shinji says nothing to the contrary. You might have a different understanding and/or perception of the anime as a whole due to reading the manga, which would explain why you're content with the ending.

Also, I read your post, and I'm not denying that he seemed to be developing during the progress of the series, but as I said in my previous post, they never took. He is the same character as he was at the beginning. There was a precedent for him choking Asuka, when in one scenario, she rejects his plea for help and he becomes angry. His choking then was a kind of, "If you won't help me, I'll hurt you like you're hurting me." which fits with his "introverted and selfish" character. Then he's choking her again at the end of End of Evangelion, but this time there's no apparant basis for him to do so. Seems to me though, that he's still the same character in both situations.

But in the end, it seems to me that you're taking a different message from the same material, i.e. his choking of Asuka displays signs of him having "accepted all the flaws in life and within himself". So I'll leave it at that.
First  Prev  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.