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Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

DKangN3 wrote:


Shinji_Ikari wrote:
Shinji's growth is in small increments at a time, just having the courage to reject Instrumentality is a huge step towards his growth. Where he avoided the bad things in the past, and sought comfort with the familiar. Shinji choking Asuka may be theorized that he was asking if she would accept him and the world he was created, which is a radical change in his character since we don't see him taking any action in anything unless coerced into doing so. However, whether you may accept this theory or not is up to you, but you must admit something like that is against his personality where he is unusually restrained and controllable (for lack of better words).

For your third answer, it lies within my last paragraph of my last post.


Also Eva (although it can't be fully understood, but at least everyone can agree upon this notion) is more about Shinji's growth as a person, the giant robots were just added to make it more interesting for people to watch. In the beginning of the series, Shinji was a complete introvert but as the series went along he began to make connections around people but still kept them at a distance, then at the climax of it all he forsook those connections and became and introvert. Why? Because he didn't want to get hurt. The resolution of the story is that Shinji has matured enough to realize the follies of selfish actions, and realize that life is more than comfort and security (hence the rejection of Intsrumentality), and has accepted all the flaws in life and within himself. Thus resolving his own introverted-ness and becomes willing to accept others into his heart. It's not a perfect closure at best, but hey neither is life.



Never seen the manga, but in the anime they say something along the lines of, "No, you were too young to remember it." and Shinji says nothing to the contrary. You might have a different understanding and/or perception of the anime as a whole due to reading the manga, which would explain why you're content with the ending.

Also, I read your post, and I'm not denying that he seemed to be developing during the progress of the series, but as I said in my previous post, they never took. He is the same character as he was at the beginning. There was a precedent for him choking Asuka, when in one scenario, she rejects his plea for help and he becomes angry. His choking then was a kind of, "If you won't help me, I'll hurt you like you're hurting me." which fits with his "introverted and selfish" character. Then he's choking her again at the end of End of Evangelion, but this time there's no apparant basis for him to do so. Seems to me though, that he's still the same character in both situations.

But in the end, it seems to me that you're taking a different message from the same material, i.e. his choking of Asuka displays signs of him having "accepted all the flaws in life and within himself". So I'll leave it at that.


The manga isn't finished, but it seems to be progressing like EoE now.

Please note that first choking scene was in his time during Instrumentality. On my presumption it wasn't his intent to kill her, but it was a physical manifestation of his resentment of pent up frustration and taking it out on Asuka, which took on the form of his "questioning" as I put dubbed it. Which as I said is quite radical for Shinji's persona.

Eva has many interpretations on what the story is, you and I can least agree on that.
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

gadeel wrote:


Shinji_Ikari wrote:


Chirimo wrote:


Shinji_Ikari wrote:


Chirimo wrote:

You don't have to like an anime just because of the ending, Neon genesis was good but I don't dislike it because the endings were completely disappointing.


It's all how you look at it. To me I wasn't disappointed, looking at how on two episodes (The battle against Leliel and ep. 20) the story focused less on events happening in the story and more so the psyche of Shinji.


But Shinji to me was a horrible character, he was used more like a tool than a human being. I heard he's alot better in the Manga, not so whiny.


It's his personality, and in the Manga he's just as easily controllable like his anime persona. Just he his anime persona would only dream of of hitting Gendo, though what he did instead was just as easily commendable.


What about in that new manga, Gakuen Datenroku?


Now that, is something I haven't read. It doesn't help that whoever uploaded the manga in the CR manga section included it with Sadamoto's manga.
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08
Several points and questions...

1. I understand the allusion to Huckleberry Finn, but it would take too long to explain the connection to Eva, so we can drop it for now.

2. Whether or not Shinji remembers his mother's death isn't the issue. He was witness to it at a young age when memory repression is easiest. I've seen enough cases of abused children that subconsciously altered and erased their memories of childhood, but still suffered with the emotional consequences well into adulthood.

3. Where do the movies fit into the TV series? Do they go after? In the middle? Or are they a completely alternate ending, in which case it's useless to argue over discrepancies between the TV end and the movies?

4. Concerning Shinji and the movie ending (though I have only limited knowledge of the movies): If Shinji is the same at the end of the movies as he was in the beginning of the TV series, is that a sign that he has not developed as a character? It depends how you look at it. The easy answer is no. He ultimately didn't go anywhere. However, he does show up and down progress through the series, which suggests that he has developed... and then failed. Feel free to jeer. I think the point to such an ending is that Shinji is a failure through and through. He develops, then drops back to square one. Throughout the show, he mourns the fact that he's even too pathetic to kill himself. There is no end for Shinji. He doesn't deserve one.

5. Concerning Shinji and only the TV series: The final episode of the TV series suggests that Shinji has come to a revelation about his position and his ability to do something about his sucky life. In other words, he realizes he's capable of outgrowing his emo-ness. Now it is an open ending, because the next step is to decide how he will use that power and how he will recreate his attitude and personality. That is a legitimate ending. It's not as satisfying as some kind of epic battle with the Evas, but seriously, Shinji's real battle is against himself and not alien monsters. The last ep of the TV series recasts the whole deal of angels etc... into an elaborate metaphor for Shinji's struggle with his own immaturity and the need to outgrow his self-induced emo problems. He is, after all, a teenager waffling in that man-made transitional stage called adolescence. It's a critical time at which he must deal with things or enter adulthood socially crippled. I don't know if I totally buy into the thought that each angel represents a different aspect of growing up, but there are essays that detail it thoroughly. The point is that the end of the TV series is a legitimate open ending. It closes the chapter of Shinji's emo-ness and opens up possibilities. The range of possibility is emphasized by the fact that the show doesn't tell you which way Shinji ultimately chooses. So it may not be satisfactory to some, and it may not be the best way to close up, but it's legit and fitting in its own way.

6. If you tack the movies onto the end of the series, then the optimistic last ep is a false hope. Instead of acting on his revelation, Shinji encounters another obstacle and gives up (which is what he's accustomed to). YES, that is bad storytelling, but it's very realistic. Psychologists will tell you that once a person continues to follow destructive behavior patterns long enough, they reach points where the chance of change plummets exponentially. Even if they come to the realization that they can change (last ep), they won't be able to enact that change based on their will and desire alone (movie). It becomes virtually impossible.
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

AlienPapaya wrote:

I found it to be complex and there some parts that got me thinking too much, but all in all I liked it. I also found it quite funny how angels were the one killing the world when angels are usually associated with heaven, good things, blah blah blah...also those children psychological aspects and breakdown were amusing as hell.


actually it said in the book of revelations: that in the end times that angels would go forth and destroy 3/4 of the living on the earth.
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

duh wrote:

Several points and questions...

1. I understand the allusion to Huckleberry Finn, but it would take too long to explain the connection to Eva, so we can drop it for now.

2. Whether or not Shinji remembers his mother's death isn't the issue. He was witness to it at a young age when memory repression is easiest. I've seen enough cases of abused children that subconsciously altered and erased their memories of childhood, but still suffered with the emotional consequences well into adulthood.

3. Where do the movies fit into the TV series? Do they go after? In the middle? Or are they a completely alternate ending, in which case it's useless to argue over discrepancies between the TV end and the movies?

4. Concerning Shinji and the movie ending (though I have only limited knowledge of the movies): If Shinji is the same at the end of the movies as he was in the beginning of the TV series, is that a sign that he has not developed as a character? It depends how you look at it. The easy answer is no. He ultimately didn't go anywhere. However, he does show up and down progress through the series, which suggests that he has developed... and then failed. Feel free to jeer. I think the point to such an ending is that Shinji is a failure through and through. He develops, then drops back to square one. Throughout the show, he mourns the fact that he's even too pathetic to kill himself. There is no end for Shinji. He doesn't deserve one.

5. Concerning Shinji and only the TV series: The final episode of the TV series suggests that Shinji has come to a revelation about his position and his ability to do something about his sucky life. In other words, he realizes he's capable of outgrowing his emo-ness. Now it is an open ending, because the next step is to decide how he will use that power and how he will recreate his attitude and personality. That is a legitimate ending. It's not as satisfying as some kind of epic battle with the Evas, but seriously, Shinji's real battle is against himself and not alien monsters. The last ep of the TV series recasts the whole deal of angels etc... into an elaborate metaphor for Shinji's struggle with his own immaturity and the need to outgrow his self-induced emo problems. He is, after all, a teenager waffling in that man-made transitional stage called adolescence. It's a critical time at which he must deal with things or enter adulthood socially crippled. I don't know if I totally buy into the thought that each angel represents a different aspect of growing up, but there are essays that detail it thoroughly. The point is that the end of the TV series is a legitimate open ending. It closes the chapter of Shinji's emo-ness and opens up possibilities. The range of possibility is emphasized by the fact that the show doesn't tell you which way Shinji ultimately chooses. So it may not be satisfactory to some, and it may not be the best way to close up, but it's legit and fitting in its own way.

6. If you tack the movies onto the end of the series, then the optimistic last ep is a false hope. Instead of acting on his revelation, Shinji encounters another obstacle and gives up (which is what he's accustomed to). YES, that is bad storytelling, but it's very realistic. Psychologists will tell you that once a person continues to follow destructive behavior patterns long enough, they reach points where the chance of change plummets exponentially. Even if they come to the realization that they can change (last ep), they won't be able to enact that change based on their will and desire alone (movie). It becomes virtually impossible.


1) agreed

2) agreed

3) alternate, shinji kills kaurou (for the life of me, i can't spell his name), then you accept either the last two episodes of the series as the end or the movie.

4) that's what i'm saying, although I saw little to no growth.

5) yup, I don't care about the robots, it's all about the characters.

6) they just don't fit togheter. they are not meant too.
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

Chirimo wrote:

You don't have to like an anime just because of the ending, Neon genesis was good but I don't dislike it because the endings were completely disappointing.


to some, dissappointing to some.
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

ds0192234 wrote:


Chirimo wrote:

You don't have to like an anime just because of the ending, Neon genesis was good but I don't dislike it because the endings were completely disappointing.


to some, dissappointing to some.


Of course everyone has their own opinion, I felt annoyed when the series ended anyway. Why does it always have to end ::cry::
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

noisehok wrote:

The evas ain't added in just to make the Anime interesting.....there are meanings to the Evas.....the Evas have many references to the mother's womb, the lcl liquid, the embilical chord, the synchronization and so on......and this has a link to the similar background settings of the drivers; Shinji, Asuka, Rei, even Misato and wad's the name of the lady with the mole...?

I watched Evangelion long time ago....but i still have the originals with me though.....and from what i know.....it is a very meticulously specified Anime with references right down to the names of the characters....

As for the ending, i also think that his actions were partly caused by the part when Asuka refused to help him....I think it also brings back to the point of Genesis when Adam and Lilith (there were 2 seemingly, debatably) were created, and this time, Adam (shinji) takes on a more proactive role, but to no avail as he yet again gets manipulated by his instincts to go back to the roost, the safety zone of maternal love when Lilith (Asuka) seemingly touched his face like his mother did before....that's the point where he got taken aback and stopped strangling her....Afterall, they'll be the ones to bring back people from the sea of lcl, as the suggested the possibility....

I think the ending had lotsa depth and many considerations were taken into it....like the single line by Asuka "kimochi warui"....which the writer didn't reveal much about during an interview....All that groundless assumptions may be overwriten after the coming series of Rebuild....


i'm just saying the EVA's were more like symbols not characters
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

Chirimo wrote:


ds0192234 wrote:


Chirimo wrote:

You don't have to like an anime just because of the ending, Neon genesis was good but I don't dislike it because the endings were completely disappointing.


to some, dissappointing to some.


Of course everyone has their own opinion, I felt annoyed when the series ended anyway. Why does it always have to end ::cry::



the movies shall be the FINAL truth.


sighs*

i shouldn't get my hopes up
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08
this thread has really grown....why is everyone suddenly interested in eva?
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

Chirimo wrote:
Of course everyone has their own opinion, I felt annoyed when the series ended anyway. Why does it always have to end ::cry::


Because if it doesn't end, it becomes like Bleach/Naruto/Dragonball/Inuyasha...
Sorry ds0192234...
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

noisehok wrote:

The evas ain't added in just to make the Anime interesting.....there are meanings to the Evas.....the Evas have many references to the mother's womb, the lcl liquid, the embilical chord, the synchronization and so on......and this has a link to the similar background settings of the drivers; Shinji, Asuka, Rei, even Misato and wad's the name of the lady with the mole...?


Oh by far the Evas to an extent were symbolical images to represent also each characters own inability to develop. However, if thoroughly revised the series wouldn't even have to include giant robots in the first place.

duh
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

keelo wrote:

this thread has really grown....why is everyone suddenly interested in eva?


That might be my fault. I've been on an anime critiquing binge and went through all the forums for anime I've seen and held an opinion of.
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

duh wrote:


Chirimo wrote:
Of course everyone has their own opinion, I felt annoyed when the series ended anyway. Why does it always have to end ::cry::


Because if it doesn't end, it becomes like Bleach/Naruto/Dragonball/Inuyasha...
Sorry ds0192234...


yeah, it makes too much money to end
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

duh wrote:


Chirimo wrote:
Of course everyone has their own opinion, I felt annoyed when the series ended anyway. Why does it always have to end ::cry::


Because if it doesn't end, it becomes like Bleach/Naruto/Dragonball/Inuyasha...
Sorry ds0192234...



Well, I suppose, but hey, If you love an anime totally I don't think you really mind.
I just thought the eva ended a little too short for its time.
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

Shinji_Ikari wrote:
Oh by far the Evas to an extent were symbolical images to represent also each characters own inability to develop. However, if thoroughly revised the series wouldn't even have to include giant robots in the first place.


True, but I think the use of the Evas and Angels was a great touch. The potential for boredom would increase drastically even if the series was reworked to better handle the psychological content.
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Posted 3/1/08 , edited 4/21/08

keelo wrote:

this thread has really grown....why is everyone suddenly interested in eva?


it's just 3 or 4 fans, we just understand that a forum does not equal you typing

" NARUTO ROXSSSSSS!!!!! I LOVE HINATA!!!!!!! "


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