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Chinese gymnast underage?
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Posted 8/26/08 , edited 8/26/08

chocofluffywhip wrote:

You're really weakening your arguement here. What's the difference from one person following the American media blindly and you following one source? There isn't, no matter what the country or political party may be. Now, I do give credit to those who actually looked further for sources to discover the competitors real ages. As far as I am concerned, you can't put 100% faith in anything you read. Like my dad always told me, "Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see." So you found one source over google (which if you were being lied to, doesn't matter all that much anyway, as mainstream sites like google an wikipedia would be the first to be incorrect) and another found a document that contradicts your information- what makes you right?

~

As for my opinion on the matter, if the girls are underage and competing then it is against the rules and they should be disqualified. That's truly unfortunate, but, it does spark the debate- should there be an age limit? This in turn could open up the event for generations to come.



No you really don't get me do you? What I was trying to say is that America has never said any good things about China, and because I live in the UK, even bias BBC don't make as much news about China or at least about the Chinese gymnast as the US media do in their news, and it's pretty clear that America is always bias towards China, I'm not saying everything the Communist doing is right, but I do see emphasising and sometimes twisting stories against China from America, and I do not just judge a matter from just 1 point of view, I read news from several sources, like the British, American, Hong Kong and Chinese (sorry I'm not bilingual enough to read French or German)

And I think you misunderstood me for what I said, I said IF the Chinese government wanted to lie about the girls age, they would have done it properly, and would not let these 'proofs' documents floating around on the Internet

And I do hope they are investigating the girls properly to prove them innocence, to me, most of the gymnasts, including those from other countries don't look 16, like Cheng Fei, I had no idea she was the same age as me and I thought she was only like 15, but then again I get the same comment from other people saying that I look underage too. And I do not see why I have to doubt every country that they would need to lie about gymnasts age, especially China, because we have that many people to choose from, not the mention that He Kexin was only meant to put in this year's Olympic to prepare for the London 2012, and unexpectedly she was good enough to win the Olympics this year.

I just hope that when the report do come out to prove China's innocence, the US media wouldn't say rubbish like ' Chinese government pushed the FIG/IOC to hid the truth' or stuff like that because that would be purely bias and self brainwashing
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Posted 8/26/08 , edited 8/26/08

tinyd0t wrote:


chocofluffywhip wrote:

You're really weakening your arguement here. What's the difference from one person following the American media blindly and you following one source? There isn't, no matter what the country or political party may be. Now, I do give credit to those who actually looked further for sources to discover the competitors real ages. As far as I am concerned, you can't put 100% faith in anything you read. Like my dad always told me, "Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see." So you found one source over google (which if you were being lied to, doesn't matter all that much anyway, as mainstream sites like google an wikipedia would be the first to be incorrect) and another found a document that contradicts your information- what makes you right?

~

As for my opinion on the matter, if the girls are underage and competing then it is against the rules and they should be disqualified. That's truly unfortunate, but, it does spark the debate- should there be an age limit? This in turn could open up the event for generations to come.



No you really don't get me do you? What I was trying to say is that America has never said any good things about China, and because I live in the UK, even bias BBC don't make as much news about China or at least about the Chinese gymnast as the US media do in their news, and it's pretty clear that America is always bias towards China, I'm not saying everything the Communist doing is right, but I do see emphasising and sometimes twisting stories against China from America, and I do not just judge a matter from just 1 point of view, I read news from several sources, like the British, American, Hong Kong and Chinese (sorry I'm not bilingual enough to read French or German)

And I think you misunderstood me for what I said, I said IF the Chinese government wanted to lie about the girls age, they would have done it properly, and would not let these 'proofs' documents floating around on the Internet

And I do hope they are investigating the girls properly to prove them innocence, to me, most of the gymnasts, including those from other countries don't look 16, like Cheng Fei, I had no idea she was the same age as me and I thought she was only like 15, but then again I get the same comment from other people saying that I look underage too. And I do not see why I have to doubt every country that they would need to lie about gymnasts age, especially China, because we have that many people to choose from, not the mention that He Kexin was only meant to put in this year's Olympic to prepare for the London 2012, and unexpectedly she was good enough to win the Olympics this year.

I just hope that when the report do come out to prove China's innocence, the US media wouldn't say rubbish like ' Chinese government pushed the FIG/IOC to hid the truth' or stuff like that because that would be purely bias and self brainwashing


Not once did I say that I believed the American media or that it was a reliable source. In fact, that was part of my point- you can't just follow one source. I do not believe any 1 news station (any country, any media) can be trusted whole heartedly. In your previous arguements you never listed any sources other than 'China says' so can you blame me for where you get your beliefs?

Also, aside from personal opinion, what makes you think that the government would be able to hide all their tracks? It's not as if children could find these documents searching google- I doubt that's how they surfaced. Rather, someone could have done legitamate research on the matter. If you know the right people you can get criminal background checks with just a name. (Please note this is a hypothetical situation, in no way am I implying that this is the case.)

Also, notice that I as well used the word IF. I honestly don't care about the age limit, it is my personal opinion that if you are talented enough to place you should be able to compete.

Honestly my responce was more to criticize your sources rather than to claim your information was false.
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Posted 8/26/08 , edited 8/26/08

chocofluffywhip wrote:

Not once did I say that I believed the American media or that it was a reliable source. In fact, that was part of my point- you can't just follow one source. I do not believe any 1 news station (any country, any media) can be trusted whole heartedly. In your previous arguements you never listed any sources other than 'China says' so can you blame me for where you get your beliefs?

Also, aside from personal opinion, what makes you think that the government would be able to hide all their tracks? It's not as if children could find these documents searching google- I doubt that's how they surfaced. Rather, someone could have done legitamate research on the matter. If you know the right people you can get criminal background checks with just a name. (Please note this is a hypothetical situation, in no way am I implying that this is the case.)

Also, notice that I as well used the word IF. I honestly don't care about the age limit, it is my personal opinion that if you are talented enough to place you should be able to compete.

Honestly my responce was more to criticize your sources rather than to claim your information was false.



Ok, these documents, well at least the ones I heard was only the screen shots of the list (with falsely entered DOB) published on several Chinese sport/news website that can easily be search on Baidu (like Chinese Google), so my point is that IF the Chinese government was going to make us Chinese (at least) to believe that they are over 16, those documents should have been deleted when they're 'producing' the girls' new age, fake passport etc

And really, I usually don't care about the Olympics neither, its just that as a Chinese, I cannot sit back and do nothing (even though I'm not really doing anything apart from arguing back on the Internet) and let outsiders attack us as if they know it all or point fingers at us all the time
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Posted 8/26/08 , edited 8/26/08

tinyd0t wrote:
I don't blame you for believing the US media so easily, at the end of the day, nothing and i mean NOTHING good will ever come out from US media's mouth apart from reporting how great America is


It's the US media. There is obviously going to be some biased, but you are absolutely blowing it out of proportion. Fact is, the US media loves to jump on anything controversial. Why? It's what people want to hear about. Hey, look at our economic postion, gas prices...etc...These all put America in a negative light, yet these are being constantly talking about by the US media.

Furthermore...The US obviously is some huge entity that absolutely can't admit defeat and try to make America look like the greatest nation ever according to yourself. Ah, but wait...Here we go...

http://www.nbcolympics.com/newscenter/news/newsid=254694.html?GT1=39003

An article praising Chinese efforts in the Olympics...And woah! Not a single word about underage gymnasts! Amazing!

The reason the media was focused on the underage Chinese gymnasts is:

A. Public interest in the situation.

B. There actually was some evidence (substantial or not) that pointed towards it. The US media did not just go "lawlz da chinese gimnasts luk yung, lets say they r undrage!!1!!!!1!!1"

And I hope you do realize the media would of made an even bigger deal if some evidence came up that said oh say...Shawn Johnson was underage? If they found out Kobe was taking steroids? We would literally never hear the end of it. They'll probably still end up talking about when the next Olympics roll around.
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Posted 8/26/08 , edited 8/26/08
They still look 14
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Posted 8/26/08 , edited 8/26/08

BlackCheese456 wrote:

It's the US media. There is obviously going to be some biased, but you are absolutely blowing it out of proportion. Fact is, the US media loves to jump on anything controversial. Why? It's what people want to hear about. Hey, look at our economic postion, gas prices...etc...These all put America in a negative light, yet these are being constantly talking about by the US media.

Furthermore...The US obviously is some huge entity that absolutely can't admit defeat and try to make America look like the greatest nation ever according to yourself. Ah, but wait...Here we go...

http://www.nbcolympics.com/newscenter/news/newsid=254694.html?GT1=39003

An article praising Chinese efforts in the Olympics...And woah! Not a single word about underage gymnasts! Amazing!

The reason the media was focused on the underage Chinese gymnasts is:

A. Public interest in the situation.

B. There actually was some evidence (substantial or not) that pointed towards it. The US media did not just go "lawlz da chinese gimnasts luk yung, lets say they r undrage!!1!!!!1!!1"

And I hope you do realize the media would of made an even bigger deal if some evidence came up that said oh say...Shawn Johnson was underage? If they found out Kobe was taking steroids? We would literally never hear the end of it. They'll probably still end up talking about when the next Olympics roll around.



Ok, I do admit that (in fact you are the second reply to this comment) the US don't talk EVERYTHING negative towards China, but the majority of them do it, and the article that you gave me, you can just call it no more than a normal sport report, it's just 'not negative', plus you see how it talks about American still beat China by 10 medals ahead in total, and suggesting that we won probably because we are a larger nation so the possibility of choosing a better athlete is higher ( well I won't deny this is an advantage, but hard work and training still apply to every athletes) but I do appreciate what Peter Ueberroth said: "The resources that they put toward their Olympic team and the population base and the dedication is fantastic"

And my point is and I've repeated myself on the last few posts, I live in the UK and I do not see British newspapers or even bias BBC make articles about Chinese gymnast on a daily basis, or at least not as often and not as many reports and experts claims, so and so. And its probably obvious as you said the US media does it because its very much out of the public interest, but then again, if America won the game like the last Olympic, not many people or at least the Americans will not really care so much whether the Chinese team is underage or not, in fact Cheng Fei was in the Olympic at the Athens and she was 16, and I'm sure she looks more younger by then but I've not heard any American say stuff about her because obviously the US won.

And it's not just about the underage gymnast that people are talking about, quite a few Americans I've seen on the internet is starting to believe that the Chinese was cheating at the Olympics because we won more than usual. But we're not the one who's done well in this year, you see, and what I think is that and I'm not saying it to piss Americans off, the US has done quite bad this year, that's why not just the Chinese, but the rest of the world got a chance to get more medals than usual

and if you've read my post above yours, you will see why I think it's pretty stupid to call those screen shots 'evidence'
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Posted 8/26/08 , edited 8/27/08

tinyd0t wrote:


BlackCheese456 wrote:

It's the US media. There is obviously going to be some biased, but you are absolutely blowing it out of proportion. Fact is, the US media loves to jump on anything controversial. Why? It's what people want to hear about. Hey, look at our economic postion, gas prices...etc...These all put America in a negative light, yet these are being constantly talking about by the US media.

Furthermore...The US obviously is some huge entity that absolutely can't admit defeat and try to make America look like the greatest nation ever according to yourself. Ah, but wait...Here we go...

http://www.nbcolympics.com/newscenter/news/newsid=254694.html?GT1=39003

An article praising Chinese efforts in the Olympics...And woah! Not a single word about underage gymnasts! Amazing!

The reason the media was focused on the underage Chinese gymnasts is:

A. Public interest in the situation.

B. There actually was some evidence (substantial or not) that pointed towards it. The US media did not just go "lawlz da chinese gimnasts luk yung, lets say they r undrage!!1!!!!1!!1"

And I hope you do realize the media would of made an even bigger deal if some evidence came up that said oh say...Shawn Johnson was underage? If they found out Kobe was taking steroids? We would literally never hear the end of it. They'll probably still end up talking about when the next Olympics roll around.



Ok, I do admit that (in fact you are the second reply to this comment) the US don't talk EVERYTHING negative towards China, but the majority of them do it, and the article that you gave me, you can just call it no more than a normal sport report, it's just 'not negative', plus you see how it talks about American still beat China by 10 medals ahead in total, and suggesting that we won probably because we are a larger nation so the possibility of choosing a better athlete is higher ( well I won't deny this is an advantage, but hard work and training still apply to every athletes) but I do appreciate what Peter Ueberroth said: "The resources that they put toward their Olympic team and the population base and the dedication is fantastic"

And my point is and I've repeated myself on the last few posts, I live in the UK and I do not see British newspapers or even bias BBC make articles about Chinese gymnast on a daily basis, or at least not as often and not as many reports and experts claims, so and so. And its probably obvious as you said the US media does it because its very much out of the public interest, but then again, if America won the game like the last Olympic, not many people or at least the Americans will not really care so much whether the Chinese team is underage or not, in fact Cheng Fei was in the Olympic at the Athens and she was 16, and I'm sure she looks more younger by then but I've not heard any American say stuff about her because obviously the US won.

And it's not just about the underage gymnast that people are talking about, quite a few Americans I've seen on the internet is starting to believe that the Chinese was cheating at the Olympics because we won more than usual. But we're not the one who's done well in this year, you see, and what I think is that and I'm not saying it to piss Americans off, the US has done quite bad this year, that's why not just the Chinese, but the rest of the world got a chance to get more medals than usual

and if you've read my post above yours, you will see why I think it's pretty stupid to call those screen shots 'evidence'


The majority of them? Nah. The biased against the Chinese, once again, is not nearly as bad as others make it out to be. Regular news media reported like once, maybe twice on the underage gymnasts, and that had been their only "negative" comments toward China. And understandably so, as if they neglected to report that, their studio would of looked down on as that was one of the bigger stories at the time. Of course, NBC did pay more attention to it, but hey, they were the ones broadcasting the Olympics. People want to hear these things. It's really nothing about being biased against China, but more about it being something of interest.

Eh, and I'm not surprised the UK did not report about it as much. I'd imagine the majority of the people in the US would not care much if their was a dispute between a German and British athlete over the gold medal, or something of that sorts. It's all about what stir interests. Of course Americans wouldn't care as much if the Chinese did not even get on the medal stands. "Oh, they might be underage? Well, they did not get a medal anyways...so it is not like they gained anything out of it anyhow"...would be the mentality of most Americans.

I mean, it would be the same even if we were dealing with American atheltes. For example, Marion Jones, track athlete, won 4 or 5 medals at the 2000 Olympics. Then when it was revealed that she took steroids, it was a pretty big deal. Of course, there other US athletes that have used steroids, but don't do anything significant. Who are the names of these people? I doubt many know. Why? People don't care about random X athlete who took steroids. Though when you put someone whose won events, and such...Then the media really starts stirring things up.

Hmm, and the United States actually did really good this year. Breaking their own record for total amount of medals in a Olympics that wasn't boycotted. Oh, and to be quite honest, I'm really not quite sure what evidence was put up against the gymnasts. I myself did not care to follow it too closely. However, I do know that there were apparently multiple reasons for the allegations. Eh, either way, the media did have foundation for the story, and were just reporting the story of interests.
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Posted 8/26/08 , edited 8/27/08
btw i have a kinda off-topic question...
I thought olympics was all about talent and skill so why should there be an age limit :S
Posted 8/26/08 , edited 8/27/08

xyinnyx wrote:

btw i have a kinda off-topic question...
I thought olympics was all about talent and skill so why should there be an age limit :S


Obviously its because not having one makes to much sense.
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Posted 8/26/08 , edited 8/27/08

dmitsuki wrote:


xyinnyx wrote:

btw i have a kinda off-topic question...
I thought olympics was all about talent and skill so why should there be an age limit :S


Obviously its because not having one makes to much sense.


there are many reasons to have one.
1 training that hard and do a lot of damage to younger
2 in gymnastics being younger is a bid advantage since the body is naturally more flexible.
Posted 8/26/08 , edited 8/27/08

Sleepneeded127 wrote:


dmitsuki wrote:


xyinnyx wrote:

btw i have a kinda off-topic question...
I thought olympics was all about talent and skill so why should there be an age limit :S


Obviously its because not having one makes to much sense.


there are many reasons to have one.
1 training that hard and do a lot of damage to younger
2 in gymnastics being younger is a bid advantage since the body is naturally more flexible.


1. They train hard anyway, so they can get into in the future.
2. You have more experience and training time when your older.

We could go on with points and counter points, but that has nothing to do with the question at hand.

y so srs?
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Posted 8/26/08 , edited 8/27/08

dmitsuki wrote:


Sleepneeded127 wrote:


dmitsuki wrote:


xyinnyx wrote:

btw i have a kinda off-topic question...
I thought olympics was all about talent and skill so why should there be an age limit :S


Obviously its because not having one makes to much sense.


there are many reasons to have one.
1 training that hard and do a lot of damage to younger
2 in gymnastics being younger is a bid advantage since the body is naturally more flexible.


1. They train hard anyway, so they can get into in the future.
2. You have more experience and training time when your older.

We could go on with points and counter points, but that has nothing to do with the question at hand.

y so srs?

those are the reason for the age limit by the IOC
1training that young is very bad later on since the body in not fully developed and can not handle the strain
2 more experience can not make up for what the body loses as it ages. its a physical disadvantage. there is no way around it.
Posted 8/27/08 , edited 8/28/08

tinyd0t wrote:
No you really don't get me do you? What I was trying to say is that America has never said any good things about China, and because I live in the UK, even bias BBC don't make as much news about China or at least about the Chinese gymnast as the US media do in their news, and it's pretty clear that America is always bias towards China, I'm not saying everything the Communist doing is right, but I do see emphasising and sometimes twisting stories against China from America, and I do not just judge a matter from just 1 point of view, I read news from several sources, like the British, American, Hong Kong and Chinese (sorry I'm not bilingual enough to read French or German)

Boldface text doesn't really help you make your point....

Almost all the "twisting" and one-sidedness and crap is about issues like Tibet where the Dalai Lama PR campaign has severely twisted western peoples' understanding of the situation.

If you bother to watch any American documentaries about China then you'll see all kinds of positive stuff and some negative stuff (such as about the pollution problem and worker's rights issues). People are always talking about how well the economy is growing in China, for example. People are also appreciating Chinese culture more and more.

Anyway, I think your perception is distorted because you don't see lots of Chinese people talking about it and getting worked-up when the media actually reports positive things about China, only when negative things are reported unfairly. So you only hear about the negative stuff because that's all people get angry and excited about.



And I think you misunderstood me for what I said, I said IF the Chinese government wanted to lie about the girls age, they would have done it properly, and would not let these 'proofs' documents floating around on the Internet

As someone with professional Internet security experience, I can tell you that your belief here is mistaken. You're assuming 100% competence on the part of people doing the alleged cover up, but even the most competent person can't possibly find all possible evidence on the Internet. People delete links to files without deleting the files themselves all the time. So it's in no way unreasonable to think that some evidence like this would be left around somewhere.



And I do hope they are investigating the girls properly to prove them innocence, to me, most of the gymnasts, including those from other countries don't look 16,

I hope so too, but the only way to really prove it is a forensic examination by at least two teams in two different "neutral" countries that have no personal interest at stake. Everything else can be faked except for their bodies. If China is not lying then they have everything to win by forensic examination and nothing to lose as it would prove everything beyond a doubt.


The thing is that breaking this age rule is like doping and the IOC has been pathetically lax about enforcing it. This has happened with more countries than just China. I don't see them overlooking drug use all the time so why this? Maybe just because it's more difficult than a blood test and they're too lazy to do anything but look at passports, things that are horribly easy to forge in many countries even without government assistance. Regardless of anything else, the IOC needs to put and end to this just like they do with steroids and weird crap like men getting sex changes to women to compete in womens' events.


BTW, the other evidence that nobody has mentioned yet is the ridiculous amount of makeup that they were wearing. It was almost like the makeup people were trying to make them look like prostitutes or something it was so bad. Given the amount of money being spent on the Olympics by China, it wouldn't make any sense to get makeup artists that were so bad as to make the gymnasts look so horrible like that. There's something very fishy about the ridiculous-looking makeup jobs.
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Posted 8/28/08 , edited 8/28/08

shibole wrote:

Boldface text doesn't really help you make your point....

Almost all the "twisting" and one-sidedness and crap is about issues like Tibet where the Dalai Lama PR campaign has severely twisted western peoples' understanding of the situation.

If you bother to watch any American documentaries about China then you'll see all kinds of positive stuff and some negative stuff (such as about the pollution problem and worker's rights issues). People are always talking about how well the economy is growing in China, for example. People are also appreciating Chinese culture more and more.

Anyway, I think your perception is distorted because you don't see lots of Chinese people talking about it and getting worked-up when the media actually reports positive things about China, only when negative things are reported unfairly. So you only hear about the negative stuff because that's all people get angry and excited about.


If you've read my argument with BlackCheese456 , i did admit back then not EVERYTHING that the US media report is negative, but its pretty much a lot of them report bias stuff, and when you said my perception is distorted because I don't see lots of Chinese people talking about it when the US media say positive stuff, well, should i put it this way, not many Chinese are really bothered about negative news from the US, and not really anyone (at least I've not heard the Chinese media reporting crap like that because we think thats pointless and purely out of jealousy), so when I read about the negative news/report about China, I read it first handed from US media, so I probably can differentiate what is bias and what's not bias

But you are right at some point there are more Americans appreciating Chinese culture more, and at the end, I do see some nice Americans who don't just judge from what they see on their TV, but the rest a.k.a. the majority I've seen on internet are saying completely different stuff, to an extend they even uses racists word which is very inappropriate


shibole wrote:As someone with professional Internet security experience, I can tell you that your belief here is mistaken. You're assuming 100% competence on the part of people doing the alleged cover up, but even the most competent person can't possibly find all possible evidence on the Internet. People delete links to files without deleting the files themselves all the time. So it's in no way unreasonable to think that some evidence like this would be left around somewhere.


Again, I've reply that on my last post, those 'proofs' were firstly found on severally public Chinese websites, including news and sport websites and can be easily searched on BaiDu (which is like a Chinese Google),
and then when they realized those are the false data they deleted it, but of course some people kept them as screen shots. So, as I said if they really wanted to cover up for those girls they would at least delete those 'proofs' off (at least) on popular Chinese websites


shibole wrote:I hope so too, but the only way to really prove it is a forensic examination by at least two teams in two different "neutral" countries that have no personal interest at stake. Everything else can be faked except for their bodies. If China is not lying then they have everything to win by forensic examination and nothing to lose as it would prove everything beyond a doubt.

The thing is that breaking this age rule is like doping and the IOC has been pathetically lax about enforcing it. This has happened with more countries than just China. I don't see them overlooking drug use all the time so why this? Maybe just because it's more difficult than a blood test and they're too lazy to do anything but look at passports, things that are horribly easy to forge in many countries even without government assistance. Regardless of anything else, the IOC needs to put and end to this just like they do with steroids and weird crap like men getting sex changes to women to compete in womens' events.

BTW, the other evidence that nobody has mentioned yet is the ridiculous amount of makeup that they were wearing. It was almost like the makeup people were trying to make them look like prostitutes or something it was so bad. Given the amount of money being spent on the Olympics by China, it wouldn't make any sense to get makeup artists that were so bad as to make the gymnasts look so horrible like that. There's something very fishy about the ridiculous-looking makeup jobs.


I think the point that you're making about the make-up is abit.. weird, I do agree with you at some point those make-up colours are not very suitable for Asian faces, but then again because of our face structure, when we put the same amount of make up as someone from other races, we would look like we've just came out from an explosion of a flour factory, but then again I believe the American team put no less make up then the Chinese team did, but because they're white and their face structures are 'deeper', they can carry the make-up without making it look heavy

So, my point is that I don't think heavy make-up can really make someone look older at all, the make up that the Chinese team put on are more like they're having a Year 7 (grade/form 1 in US?) school party, so the make-up can't really make the Chinese gymnasts look any older, in fact the opposite



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Posted 8/28/08 , edited 8/28/08
There is some definite bias in the Olympics in terms of the news. Commentators do tend to favor American athletes. Because of that, there are some things you just have to ignore when you watch the Olympics (ex. "her routine was better, that score was too low". However, that is the case no matter where you come from. It's natural for countries to root for their own athletes. The speculation about the Chinese gymnasts became a hot topic again after China swept the medals in the US. This has died down now in the media. I have to reiterate though that the speculation about the possibility of China's gymnasts being underaged arose BEFORE the Olympics (not after the US was defeated by them) and the their age was doubted by many countries, not the US alone. While popular media in the US did revisit and emphasize that issue, it was not something that the US made-up to explain their loss.

Now whether the Chinese gymnasts are underaged or not is a different story. I believe that while suspicions arose because of it, their appearance should not be used to condemn them as cheaters (coming from a small family myself). I do believe that since there is some doubt about the eligibility of the Chinese gymnasts, investigations SHOULD take place. Athletes in the Olympics are tested numerous times both before and after they compete for illicit substances, even those who are not suspected of using any of them. Some athletes pass these tests and are still suspected of using some sort of drugs, and so they are tested again. It is a process that unfortunately all athletes must go through and it is a process that can be comparable to the investigation of the Chinese gymnasts. Therefore, I believe that until proven otherwise, the Chinese gymnasts are eligible in terms of their age to have competed in the Olympics, but the investigations to disprove that are completely justifiable.
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