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Tax on the U.S
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31 / M / auckland
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Posted 8/27/08
First of all i have to announce that.. While. No, i'm not a resident of the united states. Nor do I live there.. I just want to point out how amusing how vague the law that imposes tax burdens to her citizen. Thus the reason why this thread is created.

I've been reading about this whole thing. About IRS. About taxes. About Joe banister. Irwin Schiff.

If you live in america. The highest law that shouldn't be contradicted with are the constitutions. The constitution are sets of law that the founding fathers of America imposed, which must be abided by both it's citizen and it's government. (for those of you unfamiliar with the american politics here).

Now.. The constitutions limit the government on how they should tax it's citizen in numerous articles within it. Saying that if the government needs to tax it's citizen directly.. they need to:

- Determine the amount of tax they want to raise (like.. $100.000.000 or any other digit).
- And proportionate and divide that amount proportionally with other states in the country.

"house of representatives and direct tax shall be apportioned among the several states"
Article 1, section 2 and 9

But somehow.. the 16th ammendments (ammendments means a confirmation of change in the constitution) was introduced to change it to:

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

Now.. to make an ammendments to the constitution, an exhaustive and long process must be taken. It consist of approval of 2/3 majority of congress hearing. And 3/4 approval of the states. This is because the constitution are fair and just. And anybody that seeks to change the constitution must have a very important reason to do so.

Anyway. They claim that the whole ratification (means change) process to the ammendment had been approved by 3/4 of the states.

That wasn't true.

For starters, the kentucky state, which was claimed to be the 2nd state to approve the ratification, actually rejected the new ammendment. But until today nobody had ever mentioned that fact.

Oklahoma and California never submitted their voice of approval. But Secretary of State Philander Knox claimed that they did, and they approved the ammendment anyway.

I want to list all the other states's case here, but the list would be too long and exhaustive. I'll leave you to view the whole thing.. http://political-resources.com/taxes/16thamendment/default.htm here.

The U.S government had illegally acquire tax for more than 50 years this way. (way more than that but i pull up that digits just to be safe). I think unfair. it's a shame that it's people don't realize this sooner. I'm just posting this to inform people, specially the U.S citizen, so that they're aware of this very important and serious issue.
Posted 8/27/08
Regardless of how the 16th amendment became ratified (or not) we cannot come out of paying taxes. Fair or unfair it's against the law to not pay it so what are we supposed to do?
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31 / M / auckland
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Posted 8/27/08

richiiieee wrote:

Regardless of how the 16th amendment became ratified (or not) we cannot come out of paying taxes. Fair or unfair it's against the law to not pay it so what are we supposed to do?


Not regardless.

That law is supposed to be based on the constitution. See.. any legislation, regulations and bills (meaning any kind of law) must adhere to the constitution. Any other way of doing it is an abuse of power by the government and absolutely cannot be viewed otherwise.

Right now they have the power to make income tax legal because they claim that the 16th amendment (which gives IRS the right to collect taxes unconditionally) on the constitution was properly ratified, approved, confirmed by the people of United States. (through the board of representatives of each respective states). But as i said, that claim is false.

What you are supposed to do? Do you want to pay your government something you don't have to? (of which, the payment are going to be used mostly for budgeting military purposes to expand foreign influence, which i'm sure the US citizen neither want or need). What you're supposed to do?? nothing but be aware of these facts and spread the words to everyone you know. If you really care for America and it's people.
Posted 8/27/08 , edited 8/27/08


That law is supposed to be based on the constitution. See.. any legislation, regulations and bills (meaning any kind of law) must adhere to the constitution. Any other way of doing it is an abuse of power by the government and absolutely cannot be viewed otherwise.


It is an abuse of power but the government can enforce this power as much as they please. If its in the constitution then it must be obeyed, if not will lead to incarceration.


What you are supposed to do? Do you want to pay your government something you don't have to? (of which, the payment are going to be used mostly for budgeting military purposes to expand foreign influence, which i'm sure the US citizen neither want or need). What you're supposed to do?? nothing but be aware of these facts and spread the words to everyone you know. If you really care for America and it's people.


A great deal of the general public are aware of the flaws in taxation therefore spreading the word would be futile. I don't want to pay taxes but I have to or else I'll be arrested.

(p.s. I have, if any, little patriotism for America.)
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Posted 8/27/08 , edited 8/27/08

richiiieee wrote:

It is an abuse of power but the government can enforce this power as much as they please. If its in the constitution then it must be obeyed, if not will lead to incarceration.


That's the thing. They can't. They're not supposed to.

They illegally changed the constitution by making bogus votes. But people don't know this. The only thing that makes it legal is people's absence of knowledge regarding this matter. They SHOULD be incarcerated.




A great deal of the general public are aware of the flaws in taxation therefore spreading the word would be futile. I don't want to pay taxes but I have to or else I'll be arrested.


I doubt that the public knew the fact that the government introduced the 16th ammendments illegally. I mean.. You didn't know that. Me, i just knew that a while ago. What makes you think the majority of people knows about these things. We just take for granted that paying tax is mandatory. But we never question it.


(p.s. I'm have, if any, little patriotism for America.)


you don't have to be patriotic to be sick of getting robbed by your own government
Posted 8/27/08


That's the thing. They can't. They're not supposed to.

They illegally changed the constitution by making bogus votes. But people don't know this. The only thing that makes it legal is people's absence of knowledge regarding this matter. They SHOULD be incarcerated.


People wouldn't know this, however this isn't he first time this government has manipulated the people. Fighting this issue would get us nowhere.



I doubt that the public knew the fact that the government introduced the 16th ammendments illegally. I mean.. You didn't know that. Me, i just knew that a while ago. What makes you think the majority of people knows about these things. We just take for granted that paying tax is mandatory. But we never question it.



No the people wouldn't know about the 16th amendment but we've question taxing. Actually it's rather blatant how the government is misusing our funds. Even as a democratic nation we cannot help but to allow it.




you don't have to be patriotic to be sick of getting robbed by your own government



I know. As the people of a free nation we shouldn't allow for such corruption. I'm not very knowledgeable on law so maybe you should talk to somebody who can explain it better. In my opinion, even if the public is enlightened, taxation will never be nullified.
Posted 8/27/08
Meh, who cares. Honestly, it SOUNDS like a big deal but it isn't. Our last President didn't even win originally, but honestly, who cares. The amount of money they are taxing us isn't substantial, if it was, everybody would of noticed.

Every time your taxed on income, your told WHY you were taxed. Like, when taxes are taken out of your gross pay, there's lines telling you the taxes. If you care what tax does what you can go look it up, most of them are taken to pay people who have disability's or whatever, but the government doesn't take some secret tax out of our checks, and it's fairly obvious, especially from my standpoint, that most of those taxes are put to use for what they were said they were meant to do.
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31 / M / auckland
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Posted 8/28/08

dmitsuki wrote:

Meh, who cares. Honestly, it SOUNDS like a big deal but it isn't. Our last President didn't even win originally, but honestly, who cares. The amount of money they are taxing us isn't substantial, if it was, everybody would of noticed.

Every time your taxed on income, your told WHY you were taxed. Like, when taxes are taken out of your gross pay, there's lines telling you the taxes. If you care what tax does what you can go look it up, most of them are taken to pay people who have disability's or whatever, but the government doesn't take some secret tax out of our checks, and it's fairly obvious, especially from my standpoint, that most of those taxes are put to use for what they were said they were meant to do.


Like.. financing for the whole Iraq war thing? (that's slowly putting your country to the brink of recession btw) Yeah i'm thoroughly convinced that bush administration treated US citizen's income taxes with utmost integrity.

Seriously they don't even have a proper medical care there. Yeah. So much for putting the tax money into good use huh?

And i'm not saying that they're taking some secret tax out of your checks. Or try to be sneaky about it.

My point gravitated more to.. They're enforcing it illegally to it's people. If you don't mind the government taking chunks off your pay that's fine. But i'm sure everybody else does not want to pay something they don't have to.
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Posted 8/28/08

dmitsuki wrote:

Meh, who cares. Honestly, it SOUNDS like a big deal but it isn't. Our last President didn't even win originally, but honestly, who cares. The amount of money they are taxing us isn't substantial, if it was, everybody would of noticed.

Every time your taxed on income, your told WHY you were taxed. Like, when taxes are taken out of your gross pay, there's lines telling you the taxes. If you care what tax does what you can go look it up, most of them are taken to pay people who have disability's or whatever, but the government doesn't take some secret tax out of our checks, and it's fairly obvious, especially from my standpoint, that most of those taxes are put to use for what they were said they were meant to do.


I lol'd irl when i read that.
But what can you expect, at least money in the USA is utilized for the good of the people, unlike in the third world where we lose all our cash to corrupt officials.
Posted 8/28/08

supermalv wrote:


dmitsuki wrote:

Meh, who cares. Honestly, it SOUNDS like a big deal but it isn't. Our last President didn't even win originally, but honestly, who cares. The amount of money they are taxing us isn't substantial, if it was, everybody would of noticed.

Every time your taxed on income, your told WHY you were taxed. Like, when taxes are taken out of your gross pay, there's lines telling you the taxes. If you care what tax does what you can go look it up, most of them are taken to pay people who have disability's or whatever, but the government doesn't take some secret tax out of our checks, and it's fairly obvious, especially from my standpoint, that most of those taxes are put to use for what they were said they were meant to do.


Like.. financing for the whole Iraq war thing? (that's slowly putting your country to the brink of recession btw) Yeah i'm thoroughly convinced that bush administration treated US citizen's income taxes with utmost integrity.

Seriously they don't even have a proper medical care there. Yeah. So much for putting the tax money into good use huh?

And i'm not saying that they're taking some secret tax out of your checks. Or try to be sneaky about it.

My point gravitated more to.. They're enforcing it illegally to it's people. If you don't mind the government taking chunks off your pay that's fine. But i'm sure everybody else does not want to pay something they don't have to.


That's my point, they DON'T take chunks out of what we pay. To fight the Iraq war they already passed stupid HUGE ABSURD amounts of money, nobody cared. Now, there not taking chunks out of anything if there is some tax crap there taxing us, because if there was, we would all know.


h4x0rz wrote:


dmitsuki wrote:

Meh, who cares. Honestly, it SOUNDS like a big deal but it isn't. Our last President didn't even win originally, but honestly, who cares. The amount of money they are taxing us isn't substantial, if it was, everybody would of noticed.

Every time your taxed on income, your told WHY you were taxed. Like, when taxes are taken out of your gross pay, there's lines telling you the taxes. If you care what tax does what you can go look it up, most of them are taken to pay people who have disability's or whatever, but the government doesn't take some secret tax out of our checks, and it's fairly obvious, especially from my standpoint, that most of those taxes are put to use for what they were said they were meant to do.


I lol'd irl when i read that.
But what can you expect, at least money in the USA is utilized for the good of the people, unlike in the third world where we lose all our cash to corrupt officials.

Pretty much. The way I see it is government is always going to be corrupt, at least try to get the one that is LEAST corrupt.
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Posted 8/28/08

h4x0rz wrote:


dmitsuki wrote:

Meh, who cares. Honestly, it SOUNDS like a big deal but it isn't. Our last President didn't even win originally, but honestly, who cares. The amount of money they are taxing us isn't substantial, if it was, everybody would of noticed.

Every time your taxed on income, your told WHY you were taxed. Like, when taxes are taken out of your gross pay, there's lines telling you the taxes. If you care what tax does what you can go look it up, most of them are taken to pay people who have disability's or whatever, but the government doesn't take some secret tax out of our checks, and it's fairly obvious, especially from my standpoint, that most of those taxes are put to use for what they were said they were meant to do.


I lol'd irl when i read that.
But what can you expect, at least money in the USA is utilized for the good of the people, unlike in the third world where we lose all our cash to corrupt officials.


Lol please tell me your joking.
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27 / M / Bangalore,India
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Posted 8/28/08

drizza wrote:

Lol please tell me your joking.


compared to the third world, Americans get better infrastructure, health care, education etc. Count your blessings. here more than half the government's cash lines the pockets of bureaucrats and officials.
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33 / M / West Coast, USA
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Posted 8/28/08
Once you start being required to actually file taxes its really not that big of a thing unless your adult that currently has issues with money, own a large amount of taxable stuff, have a unique income, own your own business, or etc etc.

If your just your average joe, its more of a time constraint if anything. As far as the actual filling goes if you don't hire someone to do you, theres software you can buy that covers everything. Sure the software isn't going to look for every deductible and loophole a legal rep. might look for but if you don't have to worry about that stuff it shouldn't take longer than 30m-1hr.

As far as taking money out of your paycheck goes, they have to legally tell you what each subtraction is for and in some cases that money that is taken out (income/state) is also applied when apply your legal tax forms. Depending on your situation, theres a possibility that you'll even get all or a portion of that money back after filing.

Sure you could choose not to file them or not pay but you run the risk of getting hit by a hefty file and even jail time.
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Posted 8/28/08

h4x0rz wrote:


drizza wrote:

Lol please tell me your joking.


compared to the third world, Americans get better infrastructure, health care, education etc. Count your blessings. here more than half the government's cash lines the pockets of bureaucrats and officials.


Last time I checked our health care system is in bad shape. Infracture? Hell we cant even repair our own bridges let alone fix the after math of hurricane Katrina. Do you read or watch the news (althought I hate our media) look at what they say about our education system is horrible and the decreasing number of students graduating a year and the raising costs of college tuition.
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31 / M / auckland
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Posted 8/28/08

dmitsuki wrote:

That's my point, they DON'T take chunks out of what we pay. To fight the Iraq war they already passed stupid HUGE ABSURD amounts of money, nobody cared. Now, there not taking chunks out of anything if there is some tax crap there taxing us, because if there was, we would all know.


Ok. Just on the iraq war first.

On the contrary. YOU don't care. But everybody else does. Even until now.

And I can say that for sure because the U.S government is in a VERY VERY serious, bad debt because of it. (well, and the mortgage bubble). Right now the government is running on thin ice to sustain the economy. I mean let's face it the foreign debt isn't gonna pay itself. Sooner or later the economy will collapse and you will face a reccession. (that means no more computer, no more CR, no more PS3, heck no more food coz everybody will be dirt poor)

It's not nobody cared. The fact is you are just unaware of how bad the situation is. Don't blame ya. I mean they won't write shit like this on the media.

Now on the tax. Of course you would all know. You'll be taxed since the first day you get a job. They're not taking extra chunk out of anything. They don't need to because it's already been taken in the first place.


Okay. Tax on income over $29,600 but not over $76,400 = $4,440, plus 28% of the excess over $29,600.

And it gets worse as your income gets higher.

You're telling me you're perfectly okay with them taking $4,440 off your bank account?? is that a small chunk to you?? and it gets worse because that said chunk is used for crap the citizen of U.S don't really need. They don't invest it on things that matters most like healthcare. (some of my friends told me you need to que 6 months to get operation in your cancer on public hospital). Or even education (skyrocketing fee for university entrance).

It's not even the money that matters. It's just how audacious the government takes advantage of it's citizen right in front of their very eyes. And violate the just and noble practise (the constitution) that made the country great as it was. They're prostituting the constitution and you don't even care. Oh well. That's really up to you. Me i'm just trying to spread public awareness of what i think is an important issue.
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