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Post Reply The Difference - Science and God
Posted 9/18/08

clearwateralchemist wrote:

Name a single contradiction...can't be too hard, Stickmania. I'm not going to waste my time researching contradictions until I hear more than a general accusation. You started the point on contradictions...not me.

See, in a court of law, a prosecutor must present Specific evidence for his case, not generalities. Since you are the prosecutor, You must present evidence. So, will the prosecution present specifics, or will we just dismiss the case on you presenting no evidence whatsoever.

Now, on the grounds of interpretation, Let us begin. Catholics fudge the truth about the Bible. I don't know if it's true now, but they once had people buy indulgences to get the loved ones out of purgatory faster. Now, there is not a single mention of purgatory in the Bible, in any version of the Bible. Now, I don't count the apacrapha as part of the Bible, but that is another issue, and I will NOT debate about the apacrapha. Indulgences are a DIRECT contradiction with the Bible. The Bible says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith. And this is not of yourselves, it is a gift of God. not by works, so that no one can boast." Works include giving money to the church. If you want, I can find the reference later. If you refer to the Catholics interpreting the Bible vs. Protestants interpreting the Bible, then your argument is about denominations.


Researching a waste of time? I will tell you what would be a waste of time- me giving you the contradictions. Why? Because if you don't see it for yourself you are highly unlikely to accept in your heart of hearts that they are there. If you don't see them yourself you will just conveniently forget they exist which would mean I would waste my time- not the other way round. It is much simpler for you if I give them to you because then as far as your concerned its me who is at fault and my opinion can be written off in your mind. If you actually see it yourself you will be unable to deny it, even to yourself. So I say again- go and research it. Come on, if you are right then you have nothing to fear as you won't find any contradictions will you. If you are wrong then you should see that you need to know the truth before you devote your life to something.
(Oh and your thing about Catholics fudging the truth about the bible is absolutely true, you just neglected to mention that the protestants do it too.)
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Posted 9/18/08


clearwateralchemist wrote:
Name a single contradiction...can't be too hard,


Yes stick NAME one we dare you


Stickmania wrote:
you just neglected to mention that the protestants do it too.)


Name when, where and what.


Posted 9/19/08

Ratman21 wrote:



clearwateralchemist wrote:
Name a single contradiction...can't be too hard,


Yes stick NAME one we dare you


Stickmania wrote:
you just neglected to mention that the protestants do it too.)


Name when, where and what.




Well after all that I wrote before about why I don't want to give you them on a silver platter I'm hardly going to change my mind just because you dare me Ratman
So no go and research it and try to prove me wrong, I dare YOU.

And about protestants being corrupt and untrue to the bible well I think I will give you an example.

In England recently a whole bunch of Bishops got together at a meeting to discuss wether or not to allow Gays in the Christian religion. A whole lot were all for discriminating and persecuting gays just cos thats what it says in the bible which is bad enough, but the other half then said 'lets re-interpret the bible' so that Gays are allowed. This is what they agreed on ultimately and so they told all the local revs etc to start preaching their new version of the bible. To be honest that is probably even more corrupt because they can on a whim just change their religion- it shows they don't truly have a fixed belief and that they openly manipulate all the members of their church to believing something that is convenient for them and relieves political strain. This is 100% true- and yes done by protestants and it happened less than a year ago.

And might I add that this is typical church behavior. There are hundreds of examples of when the Church has either adapted their preaching to popular opinion just to get more worshipers (and donations) through the door or when the church has tried to cover up an inconvenient truth or scientific fact that contradicts with their beliefs.

There is a lot of examples and with this topic I would be happy to bring you some more if you want, so just ask
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Posted 9/19/08
Good old British anglican church, just one step from the Catholic Church. Henry the 8th set up that Church so that he could get a divorce from his wife. There is little difference between them and the Catholic Church.

Very well, since you acted in good faith and gave us an example, I'll point out some flawed denominations who add stuff in the Bible that's untrue: Southern Babtists (Blacks are all going to hell, blah, blah, blah), Mormons (Royally screwed up doctrines, and founded by a compulsive liar), Jehovah's witnesses (deny the resurrection and deity of Jesus), Catholics (Mary is basically deified by that church, and penances if they are still around), Othodox (Mary deified again), Anglican Church (same problem as Catholic Church), Lutheran (Marie deified once again). I know there are others, and their doctrines are just as flawed, I just can't think of them. IMPORTANT NOTE: Southern Babtists are not the same as some Babtists today.

The point is, if they say stuff that's not in the Bible, then they and their Denomination is just flat out wrong. Denominations are formed when there is a difference of opinion in how a verse is viewed. If they say something that is completely inaccurate, add stuff to the Bible, or take stuff away, then their Denomination is just plain wrong. The above denominations have such problems. Now, I'm sure that there are some flaws in every denomination, but that's just the way humans are. We misunderstand some things, However; we can't afford to misunderstand certain issues. The deity and humanity of Jesus (100% God/100% man), the resurrection, the trinity, and Salvation are doctrines that are not open for interpretation. They are straight from scripture, word for word. Those are the important ones, that aren't open for debate.

The interpretation/Denomination question is still valid, but until you give us a single contradiction in the Bible, I motion to throw out his argument on contradictions.
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Posted 9/19/08 , edited 9/19/08

clearwateralchemist wrote:

Good old British anglican church, just one step from the Catholic Church. Henry the 8th set up that Church so that he could get a divorce from his wife. There is little difference between them and the Catholic Church.

Very well, since you acted in good faith and gave us an example, I'll point out some flawed denominations who add stuff in the Bible that's untrue: Southern Babtists (Blacks are all going to hell, blah, blah, blah), Mormons (Royally screwed up doctrines, and founded by a compulsive liar), Jehovah's witnesses (deny the resurrection and deity of Jesus), Catholics (Mary is basically deified by that church, and penances if they are still around), Othodox (Mary deified again), Anglican Church (same problem as Catholic Church), Lutheran (Marie deified once again). I know there are others, and their doctrines are just as flawed, I just can't think of them. IMPORTANT NOTE: Southern Babtists are not the same as some Babtists today.

The point is, if they say stuff that's not in the Bible, then they and their Denomination is just flat out wrong. Denominations are formed when there is a difference of opinion in how a verse is viewed.
This is just silly. If anything it displays your lack of understanding about the history of your religion. The Denominations are not wrong if they say things that were not in the bible necessarily-the Catholic Church decided what was going to be in the bible in the first place from many different documents, and they did so based on their understanding of doctrine. They do not hold to the position that you obviously do, which is "Sola Scriptura", or scripture alone. You need to understand that the early church did not use the bible. It did not even exist; my point is that asserting that only the bible can determine doctrine is patently absurd.







If they say something that is completely inaccurate, add stuff to the Bible, or take stuff away, then their Denomination is just plain wrong. The above denominations have such problems. Now, I'm sure that there are some flaws in every denomination, but that's just the way humans are. We misunderstand some things, However; we can't afford to misunderstand certain issues. The deity and humanity of Jesus (100% God/100% man), the resurrection, the trinity, and Salvation are doctrines that are not open for interpretation. They are straight from scripture, word for word. Those are the important ones, that aren't open for debate.

The interpretation/Denomination question is still valid, but until you give us a single contradiction in the Bible, I motion to throw out his argument on contradictions.


How many generations were there between Abraham to David? Matthew 1:17 lists fourteen generations. Matthew 1:2 lists thirteen generations.


If we can only go on the bible is Paul lying? In Acts 20:35 Paul told people "to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'" Since Jesus never made such a biblical statement, isn’t Paul guilty of deception?

Who approached Jesus? (Matthew 8:5-7) The Centurion approached Jesus, beseeching help for a sick servant. (Luke 7:3 & 7:6-7) The Centurion did not approach Jesus. He sent friends and elders of the Jews.

Was John the Baptist Elias? "This is Elias which was to come." Matthew 11:14 "And they asked him, what then? Art thou Elias? And he said I am not." John l:21
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Posted 9/20/08 , edited 9/20/08
I need to make a rectification on a certain point Ratman brought up. Southern Babtists do not hold those beliefs, and are alright. I do know that some churches held those beliefs about black people several years back. I apologize for what I said.

Now onto YouAreDumb. First, the Catholic Church did not make the Bible. There was a council that decided what would be in the Bible. Second, there was no need for the New Testament for several years, because everyone knew the events that the Early Chritians were referring to. It wouldn't be needed for several years, when the events are forgotten from everyone's mind. So, there is no surprise that they wouldn't need the Bible. If you would, I would like to see your references. If you don't, that's alright. Just if you're using the Da Vinci's code as a reference, you might want to get another reference. It's a book of fiction. If you're not, then please accept my apologies.

On to the contradictions: Thank you, now, let's look at the first. The generation gap problem is interesting, but on this website, the solution is #67 and 68. http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm The second is more tricky, and I'll get back to you on that one later. Third, also interesting, but easy. The Centurian never came out to meet Jesus. He sent Jews in his stead to ask Jesus. Luke reported the exact details, as he was a doctor. Matthew wrote to confirm Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. Fourth, The soution to the John the Babtist contradiction is on this website. http://www.carm.org/diff/Matt11_13.htm
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Posted 9/20/08
I love that you guys are responding to eachother but please don't get out of hand ok? There are some points that can be proved and disproved but the bottom line is that ALL things of God are based on faith...and if you're not willing to even consider the fact that there is a God and that he can really speak to you...nothing involved with the spiritual will ever make sense.

As for Christian denominations. We're not at all perfect. That's why Christ died for us in the same place. Some people (sadly) aren't as forgiving as others. Some people (even people of authority in the church) don't take the Word of God into consideration when they set up rules in the church (sadly once again).

Once again i state that we should hate the sin and not the sinner. There will always be pros and cons to everthing ranging from everyday decisions to what we choose to believe but you have to learn to look past all of that and into the very core of the matter.

Fact. Christ died for our sins. Fact. We can be saved if we believe that he died for us and ask him to come into our lives. Fact. There will always be some crazy extremist group in every religion/organization that messes everything up for the rest of the followers. People (believers and nonbelievers alike) shouldn't judge eachother until they get to know eachother better. This goes for Christians looking at gay people, drug addicts, athiests, and killers.

BUT It also goes for nonbelievers that are looking at Christians. Not all Christians were brought up in the church. Many came to believe in Christ out of personal experiences and have a heart that is following so hard after Christ that they are unbelievably wonderful people. So many Christians are out there that are making a difference in the world they live in. People that go into impoverished countries and providing so much love and attention for people that really need it.

No one should be stereotyped.

God wants to speak to you. Are you listening?
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Posted 9/21/08

sn0wflak3x wrote:

So I got this e-mail from a friend. And after reading it, I finally realized that it holds a message that answers so many people's same questions that I have received. So I was wondering, what you think of it. (Sorry if this is a duplicate). Here it is:



THE STORY IS SOOOO TRUE!!!! I LIKE IT!


but this quote is somewhat true.....


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -Albert Einstein

------------------------------------------------There is a Time for Everything------------------------------------------------

Why not be Christian Science, ne?
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Posted 9/21/08

clearwateralchemist wrote:

I need to make a rectification on a certain point Ratman brought up. Southern Babtists do not hold those beliefs, and are alright. I do know that some churches held those beliefs about black people several years back. I apologize for what I said.

Now onto YouAreDumb. First, the Catholic Church did not make the Bible. There was a council that decided what would be in the Bible.
Ye, the council of Nicea, whose members were the early Catholic church Bishops.



who Second, there was no need for the New Testament for several years, because everyone knew the events that the Early Chritians were referring to. It wouldn't be needed for several years, when the events are forgotten from everyone's mind. So, there is no surprise that they wouldn't need the Bible.
This argument is flawed in several ways. First of all, it is unlikely that everyone was present at every "miracle" Jeu performed, which is why people would not know thew whole story and they would get confused by what appeared to be contradcitory accounts. Second, this has no bearing on the time frame in which the gospels were written, which was so long after Jesus that they could not be eyewitnesses.



If you would, I would like to see your references. If you don't, that's alright. Just if you're using the Da Vinci's code as a reference, you might want to get another reference. It's a book of fiction. If you're not, then please accept my apologies.
I would, in the same fashion, like to see your references. Here are a list of mine:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/

Essays by biblical scholar Robert Price.

Book on Jesus by Professor Bart Ehrman of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Apocalyptic-Prophet-New-Millennium/dp/019512474X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1222016872&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1222016943&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Scriptures-Books-that-Testament/dp/0195182502/ref=pd_sim_b_2

I could go on, but first I would like to know which scholars you are basing your arguments off of, and what background you have in Greek, Hebrew, and Latin translations of the bible.





On to the contradictions: Thank you, now, let's look at the first. The generation gap problem is interestin
g, but on this website, the solution is #67 and 68. http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm The second is more tricky, and I'll get back to you on that one later.
I win. All I have to do is have one contradiction which can not be answered to show that the bible i not inerrant. That's all folks.

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Posted 9/21/08
Oh man I am out for a couple days and you guys goto town. Youaredumb and Stickmania, first I would like to thank you for challenging our faith. GASP whats that? It is through debating and reading what you guys post that we grow, rather if we like it or not. Second, the fact you are questioning religion in general is a good thing, if there are fundamental flaws in something, You should not fall for their lies, and believe what you say. But there are as many denominations as there are theologians to find new ways to interpret the bible. Clearly our matter of understanding the divine has been lost in this issue, and instead we attack the men who wrote the bible, humans. Now if a contradiction is found in numbers, is it possible that the Lord did not reveal them to that person, or perhaps one of the original articles was altered. At the very least, do the ones they have match up? Didn't look into that did we? The fact Youaredumb lists his references, I would like to thank you so that as to when I am prepared I will give you the answer you seek. Study first, know thy opponent, and then the rebuttal comes. As you have studied and gave your argument so to will i study and argue against. But I am no Luther, or great mind as some might let on. To be continued friends.


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Posted 9/26/08
I got dizzy reading this from top to bottom o_O one question though.... (to the first one that started it) umm.... y r u so insistent on proving us wrong? Or that the bible contradicts itself?(no offence, it's just my curiosity playing XD)
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Posted 9/28/08 , edited 9/28/08
I ask you a question. Do you believe the Bible to be correct, YouAreDumb and Stickmania? Because if you do not, then you will never like the answers to the questions.

John 21:25

25Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Paul said it was said by Jesus. Maybe someone didn't write down that specific quote, but Jesus did say it. And that is my answer to the one I would get back to you about.
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Posted 10/3/08
Amen josh!...lol...i like the passiveness.
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