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Texan ignites gun control debate
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31 / M / Green Bay, Wiscon...
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Posted 2/21/08

sevendarkdays wrote:

.....
What i wanna say: Don't give guns to trigger happy morons... - in fact don't give guns to anyone (excluding the cops of course). -



You must realize then, that you u are in SUPPORT of a POLICE STATE SOCIETY (1984 anyone? ).
And no im not crazy, this is reality. Don't belive me? Keep Reading... I have Foot note Refs at the bottom for those of us who would rather investigate themselves rather then immedeatly responding with an illogical Flame about my typing/spelling skillz in a futile attempt to discredit my reasoning.

I am AMAZED this guy wasnt immedeatly charged with 2nd-degree murder tho... but more on that later

For those with a short attn span, I'd like to start out with an example:
Say u have a classroom in ur typical Primary school.
Today, all the kids are working on cutting shapes out of paper with scissors.
1 child(denoted: Child A), after being repeatedly harassed by a group of fellow students, uses a pair of scissors to attack one of the harassers (denoted: Child B).
The school's response? Outlaw scissors in normal classes! under the reasoning:
"if the scissors were not present then the student would not have been able to use them to attack".
Problem solved, yes? Let's fast-fwd a week.
Similer situation, but this time, 'Child A' uses a pen to force 'Child B' to cease his relentless assualts.
School's response? It was ridiculously proposed by a teacher that perhaps removing Pen/penciles would prevent this from occuring again.
Riiiight~....

Does anyone see the failure of Logic here?
"Guns do not kill ppl, PPL KILL PPL". It is no less true.
Rather then treating THE CAUSE of the problem, the blame is put on the scissors/Pen/-OBJECT-(gun?).
This is a classic case in these, The Dark Ages of Enlightenment. Rather then treating THE CAUSE, we treat THE SYMPTOMS (Cold medicne anyone?)
FYI - This is a true story from personal experience. I had to point out the failure in mentioned teacher's Logic who proposed such an assanine thing. Imagine a 5th grader winning a logical debate with a 30yo! It was a hell of a sight but not unexpected from sum1 with an IQ of 150+. However, it all ended up back-firing and even less action was taken to prevent "Child A" from being Relentlessly Abused & Harassed by fellow "peers". THE PRIMARY CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM!
think about it

(For those who care) In the end, Child A, in an attempt to supress further aggressive action, allowed himself to enter a Deep, Deep Depression from which there was no return.


((- WARNING: Here's where i begin my ranting -))

Sumthing to note:
The reason we have "The right to OWN and BARE arms" is for these 3 general reasons.
1: First and foremost - STANDING MILITA. If im planing to assualt a forign country and i get wind of the potiential for at least 1 rdy Milita-man in each household, Im going to think twice about assualting that country.
2: (and here's a kicker) - To put us on equal footing WITH OUR GOVERMENT'S ARMED-FORCES. The point of the 2nd ammendment is also to make a coup Possible(and a peacful one at that). When the Gov becomes corrupt and NO LONGER SERVES THE PPL or HAS FALLEN UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF FOREIGN POWERS(911 anyone?). Without the ability for the "average-Joe" to unite and stand against OPPRESSION then, the oppressive force wins, hands down.
Here's sumthing a lil counter-intuitive: In the event that This Gov stops serving it's ppl; The only way for the Gov to be peacfully over-thrown, is for equal or greater force on "The People's" side. Otherwise the "Rebels" could be "supressed". It's a similer reason as to why the USA & USSR never went to war: mutual annihalation . In otherwords, the THREAT of war is enough to DETER war .
3: Civil Defense - This ties in with my 1st statement. Ever heard of soemthing called "Citizen's Arrest"? IT IS YOUR DUTY AS A CITIZEN TO WATCH OVER UR NEIGHBOR! ('You are your brother's keeper' anyone?)


let's get back to the matter at hand though. And do not let 1 man deter u from seeing the Truth

Also, consider this situation as -hypothetical- rather then using literal details to muddy the issue. (meaning, concern urself with the GENERAL SITUATION here, encountered by many ppl in many places).

Was it right for the man to take action to prevent his neighbor's house from being violated (Rather then letting police handle it when their response WAS TOO SLOW)?
UNEQUIVICALLY: YES! It is the duty of every citizen to PROTECT THIS LAND. he did his duty, and put his own safety on the line in the Defense of Others.

Was it right for him to use a firearm in this attempt to stop thugs/theives from violating his neighbors home?
YES, OF COURSE. How would he have stopped them without it? Sure he could yell at them and or say "you must wait till the police arrive"... But what would have happened? Perhaps 1 of them had a gun or knife and would turn to attack him... Or perhaps they would just flee. In the end though, how does he prevent them from getting away without at least the THREAT of force.

Was it right for him to FIRE that weapon on the thieves?
This is where it starts to bleed into the gray, i cannot answer this unequivically. However, from a personal prespecdtive, I would have to say NO. Why u ask?
THE -THREAT- OF FORCE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH "With great freedom comes Great Responsibility"


-=-=-=-
Here's how I would have personally handled the situation.
1: Use a pin-point, low-damage, firearm. Say a .22 caliber, semi-auto Rifle, Scoped or open-sight(if ur a practiced shot).
2: Aim the weapon at one of them and say something to the effect "Cease ur actions at once and no harm shall come to u!" (IE. The THREAT of Fatal action should be enough of a deterent!)
3: Should they attempt to flee then I would fire a round into the ground and yell, LOUDLY AND CLEARLY, something like "Freeze!! or the next one will hit u!" Should they continue to flee -WITH THE STOLEN GOODS- then I would attempt to place a round LOW in a leg (I'd rather miss then accadentally hit vitals). SHould they flee -WITHOUT THE STOLEN GOODS- then, I would NOT fire upon them since my bluff was called.
4: HOWEVER, should one turn to attack with a firearm - ALL BETS ARE OFF - and Self-Defense would be my only concern. However, I would still attempt to incapisitate instead of kill. Sum may say it's a difficult thing, in the heat of the moment, to PICK ur shots. I say "PHOOEY" to that! Owning a weapon also carries great responsibility to KNOW that weapon and HOW TO USE IT. So if ur an avid Deer Hunter and can contain ur excitement long enough to pop a kill shot into a young Buck running at full bore; then it should be about as easy to hit the leg of a fleeing HUMAN (which dont move nearly as fast as deers! right!?).


===================================
Here's what I'm trying to communicate: With Freedom comes Responsibility. Individually and collectively we seem to be more irresponsible with each passing year(Probably due to IGNORANCE). SHould we continue to be irresponsible then we capitulate our RIGHT TO FREEDOM. And sum1 has to take responsibility. Thus we end up bring a Police-State down on ourselves. Goodbye, Freedom of Speech, Right to Due process and other Rights to own ANYTHING that requires RESPONSIBILITY(not just guns but CARS! Can u kiddies say POLICE CHECKPOINTS?! They're already HERE!).
THIS IS WHAT THE UNDERLYING ISSUE IS ABOUT. DO NOT LET UR IGNORANCE CAUSE U TO IGNORE THE OBVIOUS.

I'd like to close with this:
More gun control will NOT stop violence and Crime. It will, in fact, cause a substantial rise in both Crime(especially thievery) and although, gun-related may indeed drop(optimistically), Knife & blunt-object related crimes would spike. IT WILL NOT TREAT THE UNDERLYING PROBLEM.

Here's some of my useless thoughts of the vid:
Also, i watched the vid, It's obvious the "widow" would say what she said. Does no one realize that THESE 2 SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN ROBBING A HOUSE?! Also, Im not racist but I am a realist. LOOK AT THE PERPS. they're black. and that one on the left sure looks like ur typical G-bangin thug, no?? And i bet the resi-zone was predominantly white. What baring does this have? Think about it... I'll let u consider the possibilities. Also, it's obvious the man was lying when he said "they charged me into my front yard, I had no choice". He was doing that to cover his ass. Is that wrong? Well if he didnt say that, he'd have been put in jail immedeatly. Obviously, the guy on the street was making a run for it. So perhaps his use of force was a bit excessive. But again - THEY SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN ROBBING A HOUSE. they TOOK A CHANCE, They KNEW the risks(if we get spotted we might get shot! this IS Texas), They ROLLED THE DICE and came up with CRAPS.
In the end, I see this AS A DETERENT TO WOULD-BE THIEVES. This might shock others and prevent future robberies(especially near that guy's house! lol but seriously... Wouldnt u think twice if u were assured of the POSSIBILITY of being SHOT??)
Also, they were morons to hit a house WITHOUT a get-away vehicle. ALL it takes is sum cheapy Wal-Mart Walkie-Talkies to coordinate ur get-away vehicle. And they should have approached from the back where they would have more concealment.
Thus I conclude, with cold-calculation and based on the insufficiant information, that these 2 were prolly Ignorant Mofos (The `true` definition of a Nigger.. and ALL races have them! not just black... Whites have more Assholes content then anys other race i've seen though. Maybe it's just my area :/ )
Wow, im gunna get flamed for those last statements, haha!

There, i think im done. (finnally!) :)

My only regret is that I didnt notice this thread sooner and thus, this message of mine may not reach many viewers :'( - For those that have listened: PUT DOWN UR MOUSE AND PICK UP UR KEYBOARD. Spread the antigen to Ignorance: KNOWLEDGE
U may use & modify any of my statements if u think it'll help. But do NOT quote me unless it's direct (Typos intact and all!)



=======Footnotes & References=========

As promised, here's a couple websites to back up my statements.

Wanna kno how removing guns and centralizing Gov -WILL- lead to police state? Go here
http://www.armedfemalesofamerica.com/firedup/another.htm

Here's sum TRUE FACTUAL Compilations of gun-related incidents in RECENT Events(like Katrina). Here';s a quote about what happened during teh 1992 RIOTS in LA when Police were UNABLE to respond.
"In areas where armed citizens banded together for self-protection, their businesses were spared while others (which were left unprotected) burned to the ground."
http://www.gunowners.org/no02.htm

Heres a blip about an 11-yo who was ABDUCTED by Swat Team because his parents refused to bring him to the hospital for a bump on his head Think it couldnt happen? Chk it out, its real!
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59616

This one is Terrifies me... prolly cause i've watched alotta "big-brother" movies. How would u liek ARMED GUNMAN(Mp4s & Mp5s! Rainbow Six shit!!) IN NEW YORK SUBWAY. (You are being watched, anyone?)
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/02/nyregion/02machinegun.html?bl&ex=1202101200&en=deac334204f54d3a&ei=5087

Here's a goodone that covers alot of ground in this whole issue. and i think it's fairly impartial too(but i skimmed it so< Meh)
http://lucschulz.blogspot.com/2007/12/incoherence-of-our-gun-laws.html

LOL, this one just shows how stupid this all is. A kid takes a Pokemon card from fellow student, using a foam Pellet gun and ends up in JUVINAL HALL! wtf!!? Whatever happened to Detention!? lol
http://cbs13.com/local/pokemon.cards.stolen.2.647306.html

And FInnally here's one for all u conspirecy theorists & Skeptics alike. See if u can prove/Dis-prove the claims at this site.
http://www.skepticfiles.org/weird/gunctlar.htm


-Glytch "If we don't change our ways we will go the way of Rome. For a country based on freedom & ruled "by the ppl" I see that as rather sad....."

PS. sry for the terrible grammer & typos. I didnt prefrood this much due to lack of sleep. Uhgu... I wish i could sleep.... Uh oh, Ramble alert! End message now b4 any further ramble is commited(LOL! ya right! too late for that )
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Posted 2/21/08
What both glytch and hugegnone says does make sense and i agree to bits and parts of what they say.

Maybe the question we need to ask is "Is the society cultured and sensible enough to use the gun?". All countries have right to bear arms if they wish but not everyone of them can. If you have in your society someone who goes in shopping malls or go in schools and commit mass shootout that is a case of serious concern. There are many countries that have freedom to carry arms and are peaceful while in other countries its the opposite. The fact that society treated that man as a hero is a serious concern indeed.
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26 / M / Dallas, TX
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Posted 2/21/08
i live in texas, and i'll shoot anyone who tries to rob my house.
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24 / F / where you least e...
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Posted 2/21/08
i think anyone who desires to shoot someone is wrong people who carry guns around are also as wrong as the person who desire to kill
Posted 2/21/08
He made an offensive move, not a defensive move. That is murder. No matter how wrong the robbers were, he was not threatened and yet he killed them. Now, this should should not incite gun control. It should incite a court case.
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25 / F / New York, New York
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Posted 2/21/08
I hate guns period. My friend moved from Texas to New York city because he saw his father shot in front of him. It really scarred him and it took him three years to open up again.
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Posted 2/21/08

skygod333 wrote:

He made an offensive move, not a defensive move. That is murder. No matter how wrong the robbers were, he was not threatened and yet he killed them. Now, this should should not incite gun control. It should incite a court case.


I concur but i already know in Texas that wouldn't happen.
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30 / M / Houston, Texas
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Posted 2/21/08

hq145 wrote:

I was watching the news (a rarity for me) when I saw this bit about a Texan that saw two men breaking into his neighbor's house. He called the police to alert them to the burglary then said "I have a shot gun, do you want me to stop them?"

The police said not to leave his house or put himself in danger. The police had not yet arrived and the men were leaving the house with the items they had stolen. Then he told the police that he wasn't going to let them get away with it and ignored further instructions not to leave his house, going out and quickly shooting both men. "I had to do it, they came onto my lawn" he said. One man was in the neighbors front lawn and the other was in the street.

This man is not being charged with anything and city officials are calling him a hero. I think this is horrid, and the man obviously wanted to kill those men. But that might just be me. Here's the link to the clip I saw:

http://tinyurl.com/33q4e3 ( BBC News )
*Shortened your link because it was stretching the page =) -mauz15-

It is legal in the US to shoot intruders, as far as I know. But when it's done with such intent it undermines our right to bear arms. So what do you think? Justifiable or not?


Let me tell you how it work in texas. IF ur in danger or anything or treating life to death in texas u have to Right to shot. That is how we do it in texas. You have the right to protect ur property. that is why everyone in texas carry guns.
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29 / M / Brasil
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Posted 2/22/08
all texans must die
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76 / F
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Posted 2/22/08

ZuDoan wrote:
Let me tell you how it work in texas. IF ur in danger or anything or treating life to death in texas u have to Right to shot. That is how we do it in texas. You have the right to protect ur property. that is why everyone in texas carry guns.


but that wasnt his property.
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29 / M / Brasil
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Posted 2/22/08
texans go to hell
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30 / M / Houston, Texas
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Posted 2/22/08

namezox wrote:


ZuDoan wrote:
Let me tell you how it work in texas. IF ur in danger or anything or treating life to death in texas u have to Right to shot. That is how we do it in texas. You have the right to protect ur property. that is why everyone in texas carry guns.


but that wasnt his property.


But that one guy walk on his property.
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76 / F
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Posted 2/22/08

ZuDoan wrote:


namezox wrote:


ZuDoan wrote:
Let me tell you how it work in texas. IF ur in danger or anything or treating life to death in texas u have to Right to shot. That is how we do it in texas. You have the right to protect ur property. that is why everyone in texas carry guns.


but that wasnt his property.


But that one guy walk on his property.


so you're saying if some dude walks into your lawn, you gunna shoot him? and he wasnt in any danger.
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29 / M / Brasil
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Posted 2/22/08
i will kill every motherfucker from texas who invade my country
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76 / M / Florida, US
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Posted 2/22/08
I'm almost positive the man did it for revenge and/or anger; unless they were leaving with extremely valuable items he couldn't replace or wasn't covered by insurance. I don't think firearms should be allowed to be discharged in public by a civilian unless their lives were clearly in danger. He shot them while they were running away and basically did it for himself. How can you be considered a hero for saving yourself or stopping people from taking your stuff? You're a hero if you help others. Not yourself.
I think it was immoral of him to shoot at the burglars since it was in public. I don't care about the criminals but innocent civilians could have been hurt. There's a reason for civilians not being able to fire in public. Even the police have to be careful when they shoot someone during extreme circumstances. Would I have shot the burglars? I might have out of anger, greed, or my personal sense of justice as well. But I would never lie and bullshit about me doing it for moral reasons. It's because I wanted to catch them, hurt/kill them, or save my stuff. So, that's one idiotic remark they made about the man being a hero.
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