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Post Reply Speed or Strength ?
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Posted 10/5/08
speed because you'll be hard to hit and you'll frustrate your foe.. and your attacks will be hard to handle.
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Posted 10/5/08 , edited 10/5/08

desfines07 wrote:

speed because you'll be hard to hit and you'll frustrate your foe.. and your attacks will be hard to handle.



It depends on your art.

In my group The Art of War, someone brought up that one needs suffecient strength to wield a claymore and speed to use a katana. I refuted them giving the following answer;


Well the claymore is actually not that heavy. It is unbalanced and unwieldy though which makes for awkward use. Weight has not much to do with damage either. A katana is very light but it can cut through an entire person. A claymore is a bit heavier, but to use a claymore to hack off a limb or a head, it would be quite hard and is not likely to happen with a single swing.

In swordsmanship, neither speed nor strength come into play.

Damage comes from making a correct attack. This comes from skill which comes from practice. For example; in kenjutsu the angle of the cut and correct application are what gives maximum damage.

Basically where to hit and how to hit are what damages a person.

Speed and strength actually have nothing to do with the capability and skill in wielding a weapon. You just have to be sure you are not too weak to handle the weapon or too slow to make an effective strike.

In kenjutsu, initiative is important; speed is not. It does not take much to be sufficiently quick enough to cut the opponent before they can cut you if you have the initiative.


Okay, let me explain the mindset in the midst of combat. All these little things come naturally to a practiced swordsman and are quick to pick up with diligence. They are something to ponder, but eventually mushin is applied. I will explain that in a moment.

1. As a swordsman, you sense the intent to harm you. [Psychological intuition. You sense little indications someone harbors malice towards you. It can be as small as someone avoiding eye contact and fidgeting to someone with full resolve placing his hand on his sword.]

2. You prepare your resolve instantly to kill and relieve any attachments to your own life. Mushin sets in and you both draw. You immediately spring back, accounting for maai, and secure your footing and take your stance safely out of his immediate threat range.

3. Then several things happen.
A.) Go no sen; You wait for the opponents attack, and receive it by defense and utilize a counter attack.
B.) Sen no sen; With a defensive goal, you attack at the same time as the opponent.
C.) Sensen no sen; You anticipate the attack and make your own attack first.

3. The initiative is the edge on the opponent. Whether it be a defensive initiative or an offensive initiative, you gain the upper hand by either attacking before the opponent is prepared [offensive initiative] or you receive the attack in anticipation, intercept it, and counter attack thereby gaining the defensive initiative.

There is another example for initiative though.

Say section two involves a user of iaijutsu [my preferred weapon art] and thus both opponents do not just draw swords. You sense the intent to kill, resolve yourself, and immediately step in, drawing the blade and cutting the opponent in a single strike. This is also an example of initiative.

Let me explain a few of the principles I mentioned.

Mushin is a concept of "Void Mind" in which you do not think during combat. You are fully prepared instantaneously and your resolve materializes as instant reaction. During combat, no one has sufficient time to think. When your mind stops on your opponent's sword, it gets trapped by it. You're focus is lost. With mushin, you don't think; you just react.
It is the ultimate discipline in martial arts and accompanies Fudoshin and Zanshin.

Martial artists first learn the principles of their art by oral transmission, then they practice with kata [forms by repetition] thereby committing the motions to muscle memory, not unlike learning to ride a bike; something that you don't have to think about. Then, in the case of swordsmen, they practice the application with tameshigiri or test cutting. Then after they have a feel for the resistance, understand the principles governing the techniques, and the techniques are second nature to them, they practice forgetting the techniques; or rather not thinking about them. Then they often go on a musha shugyo and test their skills gaining mushin. In present day, sparring is applicable.

Fudoshin is the immovable mind in which you cannot be swayed or perturbed. It's often cited to be a spirit of unshakable determination and serenity. Zanshin, the retaining mind, is a state of relaxed alertness. It also has link to the posture of the user and the level in which their eyes rest upon the opponent. I might also mention shoshin while we're at it. Shoshin is the student's mind. One must always retain it. It is where you remove any preconceptions from your mind and are completely open and you have much eagerness and diligence, you are totally devoted to learning something in it's purest of forms.

I picture it like this... I have the image of a painting, not one that I have ever seen in my life, but one perhaps that I have yet to paint. It's a landscape. At the top, clouds are drifting by over the top of a mountain overlooking a serene lake.
The lake is like Zanshin, always calm. You can cast stones into it, and it reacts alertly with subtle ripples yet does not stir. The mountain is like Fudoshin. It is immovable, strong, and no natural disaster can shake it's vigile guard over the rest of the scenery. The clouds are like Mushin, drifting on, never stopping.

Then there is a door at the bottom of the painting, like walking right through the door enters the world this painting is. That door is like shoshin. You can only reach it with dilligence and can only understand how to open it with an open and eager mind.

Maai is the concept that measures two things. The practical being the distance between two people measured by their immediate threat range. The range of immediate threat being measured, in the case of swordsmen, by the length of the swords. If in chuden kamae, you stand beyond the range of a strike, the opponent must move to meet you, thus giving you adequate time to gain the initiative.
The metaphysical being the measuring of the opponent's fighting spirit or kiai. In this case, kiai or fighting spirit being quite literally resolve.






For example; once someone had broken into my house. I heard the door open and it was late. I grabbed my nihonto from it's locker and when confronted with a figure standing in the doorway I immediately and swiftly drew and cut at the figure, only to apply tsumeru and stop the blade a hair away from flaying the epidermis. I heard a shriek and recognized the voice as my brothers, who was drunk and had walked to my house to crash. Knowing to only attack a recognized figure unless in imminent threat, I naturally applied tsumeru and thus I uncovered the figure without fully attacking yet at the same time not sacrificing my safety knowing clearly that only a minuscule amount of pressure was needed to sever where his vagus nerve, suprascapular nerve, and carotid artery met if such a threat was identified.

The next day he asked me to teach him kenjutsu in which I naturally declined, not yet attaining a menkyo or license of transmission in my art, Muso Shinden ryu. This is such a situation where uncanny speed could be vastly disadvantageous, showing that speed in itself is not a factor in swordsmanship, rather the immediate application of a technique being imperative.
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Posted 10/5/08

Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:


desfines07 wrote:

speed because you'll be hard to hit and you'll frustrate your foe.. and your attacks will be hard to handle.



It depends on your art.

In my group The Art of War, someone brought up that one needs suffecient strength to wield a claymore and speed to use a katana. I refuted them giving the following answer;


Well the claymore is actually not that heavy. It is unbalanced and unwieldy though which makes for awkward use. Weight has not much to do with damage either. A katana is very light but it can cut through an entire person. A claymore is a bit heavier, but to use a claymore to hack off a limb or a head, it would be quite hard and is not likely to happen with a single swing.

In swordsmanship, neither speed nor strength come into play.

Damage comes from making a correct attack. This comes from skill which comes from practice. For example; in kenjutsu the angle of the cut and correct application are what gives maximum damage.

Basically where to hit and how to hit are what damages a person.

Speed and strength actually have nothing to do with the capability and skill in wielding a weapon. You just have to be sure you are not too weak to handle the weapon or too slow to make an effective strike.

In kenjutsu, initiative is important; speed is not. It does not take much to be sufficiently quick enough to cut the opponent before they can cut you if you have the initiative.


Okay, let me explain the mindset in the midst of combat. All these little things come naturally to a practiced swordsman and are quick to pick up with diligence. They are something to ponder, but eventually mushin is applied. I will explain that in a moment.

1. As a swordsman, you sense the intent to harm you. [Psychological intuition. You sense little indications someone harbors malice towards you. It can be as small as someone avoiding eye contact and fidgeting to someone with full resolve placing his hand on his sword.]

2. You prepare your resolve instantly to kill and relieve any attachments to your own life. Mushin sets in and you both draw. You immediately spring back, accounting for maai, and secure your footing and take your stance safely out of his immediate threat range.

3. Then several things happen.
A.) Go no sen; You wait for the opponents attack, and receive it by defense and utilize a counter attack.
B.) Sen no sen; With a defensive goal, you attack at the same time as the opponent.
C.) Sensen no sen; You anticipate the attack and make your own attack first.

3. The initiative is the edge on the opponent. Whether it be a defensive initiative or an offensive initiative, you gain the upper hand by either attacking before the opponent is prepared [offensive initiative] or you receive the attack in anticipation, intercept it, and counter attack thereby gaining the defensive initiative.

There is another example for initiative though.

Say section two involves a user of iaijutsu [my preferred weapon art] and thus both opponents do not just draw swords. You sense the intent to kill, resolve yourself, and immediately step in, drawing the blade and cutting the opponent in a single strike. This is also an example of initiative.

Let me explain a few of the principles I mentioned.

Mushin is a concept of "Void Mind" in which you do not think during combat. You are fully prepared instantaneously and your resolve materializes as instant reaction. During combat, no one has sufficient time to think. When your mind stops on your opponent's sword, it gets trapped by it. You're focus is lost. With mushin, you don't think; you just react.
It is the ultimate discipline in martial arts and accompanies Fudoshin and Zanshin.

Martial artists first learn the principles of their art by oral transmission, then they practice with kata [forms by repetition] thereby committing the motions to muscle memory, not unlike learning to ride a bike; something that you don't have to think about. Then, in the case of swordsmen, they practice the application with tameshigiri or test cutting. Then after they have a feel for the resistance, understand the principles governing the techniques, and the techniques are second nature to them, they practice forgetting the techniques; or rather not thinking about them. Then they often go on a musha shugyo and test their skills gaining mushin. In present day, sparring is applicable.

Fudoshin is the immovable mind in which you cannot be swayed or perturbed. It's often cited to be a spirit of unshakable determination and serenity. Zanshin, the retaining mind, is a state of relaxed alertness. It also has link to the posture of the user and the level in which their eyes rest upon the opponent. I might also mention shoshin while we're at it. Shoshin is the student's mind. One must always retain it. It is where you remove any preconceptions from your mind and are completely open and you have much eagerness and diligence, you are totally devoted to learning something in it's purest of forms.

I picture it like this... I have the image of a painting, not one that I have ever seen in my life, but one perhaps that I have yet to paint. It's a landscape. At the top, clouds are drifting by over the top of a mountain overlooking a serene lake.
The lake is like Zanshin, always calm. You can cast stones into it, and it reacts alertly with subtle ripples yet does not stir. The mountain is like Fudoshin. It is immovable, strong, and no natural disaster can shake it's vigile guard over the rest of the scenery. The clouds are like Mushin, drifting on, never stopping.

Then there is a door at the bottom of the painting, like walking right through the door enters the world this painting is. That door is like shoshin. You can only reach it with dilligence and can only understand how to open it with an open and eager mind.

Maai is the concept that measures two things. The practical being the distance between two people measured by their immediate threat range. The range of immediate threat being measured, in the case of swordsmen, by the length of the swords. If in chuden kamae, you stand beyond the range of a strike, the opponent must move to meet you, thus giving you adequate time to gain the initiative.
The metaphysical being the measuring of the opponent's fighting spirit or kiai. In this case, kiai or fighting spirit being quite literally resolve.


That all made sense.. its depend on your art.. but i still think speed is most important to have.. a big guy wielding a claymore wouldn't be able to touch a little guy with quick feet and a sharp blade.
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Posted 10/5/08

desfines07 wrote:
but i still think speed is most important to have.. a big guy wielding a claymore wouldn't be able to touch a little guy with quick feet and a sharp blade.


I wouldn't be so sure. It depends on maai. Before the little guy can get close enough, the claymore would get him.

Reach, mobility, initiative, and damaging efficiency are the four factors.

Katana may be able to cut someone through while a claymore can't, but that doesn't mean a claymore can't kill as efficiently. The claymore is more blunt trauma as most European broadswords lacked a sharp blade. This was so they wouldn't break as easy. A claymore can block a sword many times over, while a katana would break after only a few clashes.

A claymore has more reach, but a katana has more mobility.
The weapons even up. The deciding factor is not in the weapon or in superficial aspects such as strength or speed or size, but rather the skill and mettle of the wielders.

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Posted 10/5/08

Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:


desfines07 wrote:
but i still think speed is most important to have.. a big guy wielding a claymore wouldn't be able to touch a little guy with quick feet and a sharp blade.


I wouldn't be so sure. It depends on maai. Before the little guy can get close enough, the claymore would get him.

Reach, mobility, initiative, and damaging efficiency are the four factors.

Katana may be able to cut someone through while a claymore can't, but that doesn't mean a claymore can't kill as efficiently. The claymore is more blunt trauma as most European broadswords lacked a sharp blade. This was so they wouldn't break as easy. A claymore can block a sword many times over, while a katana would break after only a few clashes.

A claymore has more reach, but a katana has more mobility.
The weapons even up. The deciding factor is not in the weapon or in superficial aspects such as strength or speed or size, but rather the skill and mettle of the wielders.



hmm your right, if he got close enough... but the little guy with speed might be able to move away quickly and i dont think a claymore can't break a katana, that easily.
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Posted 10/5/08

Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:


desfines07 wrote:
but i still think speed is most important to have.. a big guy wielding a claymore wouldn't be able to touch a little guy with quick feet and a sharp blade.


I wouldn't be so sure. It depends on maai. Before the little guy can get close enough, the claymore would get him.

Reach, mobility, initiative, and damaging efficiency are the four factors.

Katana may be able to cut someone through while a claymore can't, but that doesn't mean a claymore can't kill as efficiently. The claymore is more blunt trauma as most European broadswords lacked a sharp blade. This was so they wouldn't break as easy. A claymore can block a sword many times over, while a katana would break after only a few clashes.

A claymore has more reach, but a katana has more mobility.
The weapons even up. The deciding factor is not in the weapon or in superficial aspects such as strength or speed or size, but rather the skill and mettle of the wielders.



so who ever makes the first mistake is the loser
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Posted 10/5/08

bigm1 wrote:


Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:


desfines07 wrote:
but i still think speed is most important to have.. a big guy wielding a claymore wouldn't be able to touch a little guy with quick feet and a sharp blade.


I wouldn't be so sure. It depends on maai. Before the little guy can get close enough, the claymore would get him.

Reach, mobility, initiative, and damaging efficiency are the four factors.

Katana may be able to cut someone through while a claymore can't, but that doesn't mean a claymore can't kill as efficiently. The claymore is more blunt trauma as most European broadswords lacked a sharp blade. This was so they wouldn't break as easy. A claymore can block a sword many times over, while a katana would break after only a few clashes.

A claymore has more reach, but a katana has more mobility.
The weapons even up. The deciding factor is not in the weapon or in superficial aspects such as strength or speed or size, but rather the skill and mettle of the wielders.



so who ever makes the first mistake is the loser


umm not really
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Posted 10/5/08

desfines07 wrote:


bigm1 wrote:


Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:


desfines07 wrote:
but i still think speed is most important to have.. a big guy wielding a claymore wouldn't be able to touch a little guy with quick feet and a sharp blade.


I wouldn't be so sure. It depends on maai. Before the little guy can get close enough, the claymore would get him.

Reach, mobility, initiative, and damaging efficiency are the four factors.

Katana may be able to cut someone through while a claymore can't, but that doesn't mean a claymore can't kill as efficiently. The claymore is more blunt trauma as most European broadswords lacked a sharp blade. This was so they wouldn't break as easy. A claymore can block a sword many times over, while a katana would break after only a few clashes.

A claymore has more reach, but a katana has more mobility.
The weapons even up. The deciding factor is not in the weapon or in superficial aspects such as strength or speed or size, but rather the skill and mettle of the wielders.



so who ever makes the first mistake is the loser


umm not really


it is b/c if the claymore missed the guy wit the katana has an opening or if the guy wit the katana rushes in he could be hit wit the claymore
Posted 10/5/08

desfines07 wrote:

speed because you'll be hard to hit and you'll frustrate your foe.. and your attacks will be hard to handle.





Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:


desfines07 wrote:

speed because you'll be hard to hit and you'll frustrate your foe.. and your attacks will be hard to handle.



It depends on your art.

In my group The Art of War, someone brought up that one needs suffecient strength to wield a claymore and speed to use a katana. I refuted them giving the following answer;


Well the claymore is actually not that heavy. It is unbalanced and unwieldy though which makes for awkward use. Weight has not much to do with damage either. A katana is very light but it can cut through an entire person. A claymore is a bit heavier, but to use a claymore to hack off a limb or a head, it would be quite hard and is not likely to happen with a single swing.

In swordsmanship, neither speed nor strength come into play.

Damage comes from making a correct attack. This comes from skill which comes from practice. For example; in kenjutsu the angle of the cut and correct application are what gives maximum damage.

Basically where to hit and how to hit are what damages a person.

Speed and strength actually have nothing to do with the capability and skill in wielding a weapon. You just have to be sure you are not too weak to handle the weapon or too slow to make an effective strike.

In kenjutsu, initiative is important; speed is not. It does not take much to be sufficiently quick enough to cut the opponent before they can cut you if you have the initiative.


Okay, let me explain the mindset in the midst of combat. All these little things come naturally to a practiced swordsman and are quick to pick up with diligence. They are something to ponder, but eventually mushin is applied. I will explain that in a moment.

1. As a swordsman, you sense the intent to harm you. [Psychological intuition. You sense little indications someone harbors malice towards you. It can be as small as someone avoiding eye contact and fidgeting to someone with full resolve placing his hand on his sword.]

2. You prepare your resolve instantly to kill and relieve any attachments to your own life. Mushin sets in and you both draw. You immediately spring back, accounting for maai, and secure your footing and take your stance safely out of his immediate threat range.

3. Then several things happen.
A.) Go no sen; You wait for the opponents attack, and receive it by defense and utilize a counter attack.
B.) Sen no sen; With a defensive goal, you attack at the same time as the opponent.
C.) Sensen no sen; You anticipate the attack and make your own attack first.

3. The initiative is the edge on the opponent. Whether it be a defensive initiative or an offensive initiative, you gain the upper hand by either attacking before the opponent is prepared [offensive initiative] or you receive the attack in anticipation, intercept it, and counter attack thereby gaining the defensive initiative.

There is another example for initiative though.

Say section two involves a user of iaijutsu [my preferred weapon art] and thus both opponents do not just draw swords. You sense the intent to kill, resolve yourself, and immediately step in, drawing the blade and cutting the opponent in a single strike. This is also an example of initiative.

Let me explain a few of the principles I mentioned.

Mushin is a concept of "Void Mind" in which you do not think during combat. You are fully prepared instantaneously and your resolve materializes as instant reaction. During combat, no one has sufficient time to think. When your mind stops on your opponent's sword, it gets trapped by it. You're focus is lost. With mushin, you don't think; you just react.
It is the ultimate discipline in martial arts and accompanies Fudoshin and Zanshin.

Martial artists first learn the principles of their art by oral transmission, then they practice with kata [forms by repetition] thereby committing the motions to muscle memory, not unlike learning to ride a bike; something that you don't have to think about. Then, in the case of swordsmen, they practice the application with tameshigiri or test cutting. Then after they have a feel for the resistance, understand the principles governing the techniques, and the techniques are second nature to them, they practice forgetting the techniques; or rather not thinking about them. Then they often go on a musha shugyo and test their skills gaining mushin. In present day, sparring is applicable.

Fudoshin is the immovable mind in which you cannot be swayed or perturbed. It's often cited to be a spirit of unshakable determination and serenity. Zanshin, the retaining mind, is a state of relaxed alertness. It also has link to the posture of the user and the level in which their eyes rest upon the opponent. I might also mention shoshin while we're at it. Shoshin is the student's mind. One must always retain it. It is where you remove any preconceptions from your mind and are completely open and you have much eagerness and diligence, you are totally devoted to learning something in it's purest of forms.

I picture it like this... I have the image of a painting, not one that I have ever seen in my life, but one perhaps that I have yet to paint. It's a landscape. At the top, clouds are drifting by over the top of a mountain overlooking a serene lake.
The lake is like Zanshin, always calm. You can cast stones into it, and it reacts alertly with subtle ripples yet does not stir. The mountain is like Fudoshin. It is immovable, strong, and no natural disaster can shake it's vigile guard over the rest of the scenery. The clouds are like Mushin, drifting on, never stopping.

Then there is a door at the bottom of the painting, like walking right through the door enters the world this painting is. That door is like shoshin. You can only reach it with dilligence and can only understand how to open it with an open and eager mind.

Maai is the concept that measures two things. The practical being the distance between two people measured by their immediate threat range. The range of immediate threat being measured, in the case of swordsmen, by the length of the swords. If in chuden kamae, you stand beyond the range of a strike, the opponent must move to meet you, thus giving you adequate time to gain the initiative.
The metaphysical being the measuring of the opponent's fighting spirit or kiai. In this case, kiai or fighting spirit being quite literally resolve.






For example; once someone had broken into my house. I heard the door open and it was late. I grabbed my nihonto from it's locker and when confronted with a figure standing in the doorway I immediately and swiftly drew and cut at the figure, only to apply tsumeru and stop the blade a hair away from flaying the epidermis. I heard a shriek and recognized the voice as my brothers, who was drunk and had walked to my house to crash. Knowing to only attack a recognized figure unless in imminent threat, I naturally applied tsumeru and thus I uncovered the figure without fully attacking yet at the same time not sacrificing my safety knowing clearly that only a minuscule amount of pressure was needed to sever where his vagus nerve, suprascapular nerve, and carotid artery met if such a threat was identified.

The next day he asked me to teach him kenjutsu in which I naturally declined, not yet attaining a menkyo or license of transmission in my art, Muso Shinden ryu. This is such a situation where uncanny speed could be vastly disadvantageous, showing that speed in itself is not a factor in swordsmanship, rather the immediate application of a technique being imperative.





bigm1 wrote:


Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:


desfines07 wrote:
but i still think speed is most important to have.. a big guy wielding a claymore wouldn't be able to touch a little guy with quick feet and a sharp blade.


I wouldn't be so sure. It depends on maai. Before the little guy can get close enough, the claymore would get him.

Reach, mobility, initiative, and damaging efficiency are the four factors.

Katana may be able to cut someone through while a claymore can't, but that doesn't mean a claymore can't kill as efficiently. The claymore is more blunt trauma as most European broadswords lacked a sharp blade. This was so they wouldn't break as easy. A claymore can block a sword many times over, while a katana would break after only a few clashes.

A claymore has more reach, but a katana has more mobility.
The weapons even up. The deciding factor is not in the weapon or in superficial aspects such as strength or speed or size, but rather the skill and mettle of the wielders.



so who ever makes the first mistake is the loser


I disagree with all 3 of you. And between speed or strength, I choose neither. Kiai is the most essential and therefore, is better than skill, speed, and strength. If a person has a extremely strong Kiai alone, then nothing else would matter.
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Posted 10/5/08

Raze22 wrote:
I disagree with all 3 of you. And between speed or strength, I choose neither. Kiai is the most essential and therefore, is better than skill, speed, and strength. If a person has a extremely strong Kiai alone, then nothing else would matter.


So basically you believe that personal skill and all elements of strategy are worthless?
Are you talking about resolve or a battle cry? Resolve is necessary, but it has no correlation to technical effectiveness. A battle cry has no strategic value whatsoever. It has it's uses, yet those are shallow.



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Posted 10/5/08

bigm1 wrote:
so who ever makes the first mistake is the loser


In a certain perspective that would be true.

Posted 10/6/08 , edited 10/6/08



So basically you believe that personal skill and all elements of strategy are worthless?
Are you talking about resolve or a battle cry? Resolve is necessary, but it has no correlation to technical effectiveness. A battle cry has no strategic value whatsoever. It has it's uses, yet those are shallow.




What determines a fight from greatest to least: Kiai, skill, speed, strength.
No, Kiai is just more than a battle cry or resolve. Kiai has nothing to do with what someone sees in tournaments; karateka who scream out a senseless "ki-yah!" or other sorts of odd shouts. Kiai is different from kakegoe. A kakegoe is a simple shout, kiai is something deeper. The "ki" in kiai refers to energy, (chi or qi in Chinese) believed to be an essential force behind health and vitality, but more so, something able to be nurtured, built and stored within the body for use. "Ai" means to meet, harmonize, join or fuse. Kiai is the expression of our energy, ki, through a shout, with the intent to "meet" (-ai) "other's/thing's spiritual energy" (ki-), thus having an effect on him/it.
If you have weak Kiai, then of course its' uses are shallow. If you are slow, if you have little skill, or you have little strength, then of course those uses are shallow. This might be hard to comprehend seeing that most people now in days have extremely weak Kiai.
[scenarios/examples] Say there is someone who is very quick, strong, has a lot of skill, but has very weak Kiai versus someone who has much stronger Kiai and is significantly weak in everything else compared to the person who he/she is fighting. If these two were to fight, the person with the strongest Kiai would win due to the big difference in Kiai, despite the major difference in speed, strength, and skill.
Say there is someone who is very quick, strong, has a lot of skill, but has equal Kiai to the person he/she is facing versus someone who has much strong Kiai and is significantly weak in everything else compared to the person who he/she is fighting. If these two were to fight, the person in green would win.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr.Blue comes at Raze with greater speed, strength, and skill. But Raze is greater than Mr.Blue in Kiai. Mr.Blue attacks (using a katana) with great skill, speed, and strength, but Raze (has nothing but chop sticks) shouts. Raze makes Mr.Blue stops in his tracks. Then he lets out another shout while hitting him on his forehead with his chop sticks. Mr.Blue is out cold!!!!!!! After Mr.Blue wakes up Raze is still there eating Mr.Blue's monday night ramen with the chop sticks he hit him with. Mr.Blue decides to stay on the defense. This time Raze attacks and shouts again. Mr.Blue is frozen in his tracks again. Once more Raze does another shout will hitting Mr.Blue on his forehead. He is out cold.
Well, I hope everyone gets the point that Kiai is superior to skill, speed, and strength. Ice_blue did a good job explaining why skill is better than both speed and strength. Someone else also did a good job explaining why speed is better than strength (it might have been the afro samurai guy, but I forget =(...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The existence of Kiai is quite certain and its development and use requires sincere, persistent and longtime practice, provided you believe in it.
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Posted 10/6/08
You guys really well versed in this. If I may join this discussion?

I don't have any knowledge in proper martial arts, but in terms of fighting, I have a bit of experience to it, thanks to my notorious teen age. So before I continue I want to apologize if any of this doesn't relate or such. It is purely from my experience.

In my opinion, what's important in fighting is strategy, survival instincts and experience. Strategy involves to observe the surroundings if it favors towards you, what is the capacity of your opponent and your capacity as well. As for the fight itself, the main thing is to anticipate your opponent attack and predict where to hit that hurt the most or have the highest chances to hit. This doesn't mean just hurling your attacks like a madman because this will make you fatigue faster than your opponent thus, you might lose the fight or maybe dead. It consist of calculated strikes in order to bring your opponent down.
It's hard to explain the survival instincts as I randomly picks the word out since it fits the things I always do when fighting. If I'm fighting, I always thought to myself that "I want to go home after this". Thanks to that, I'm still able to write this post today.
It might sounds like easy to do but trust me, I've been in hospital a couple of times having bruisers, stitches, etc for me to actually learns to dodge a punch and land a strike.

Answer to the thread: I think strength / speed plays a role in fighting, so as long as you know how to use it well.
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Posted 10/6/08

Raze22 wrote:
What determines a fight from greatest to least: Kiai, skill, speed, strength.
No, Kiai is just more than a battle cry or resolve. Kiai has nothing to do with what someone sees in tournaments; karateka who scream out a senseless "ki-yah!" or other sorts of odd shouts. Kiai is different from kakegoe. A kakegoe is a simple shout, kiai is something deeper. The "ki" in kiai refers to energy, (chi or qi in Chinese) believed to be an essential force behind health and vitality, but more so, something able to be nurtured, built and stored within the body for use. "Ai" means to meet, harmonize, join or fuse. Kiai is the expression of our energy, ki, through a shout, with the intent to "meet" (-ai) "other's/thing's spiritual energy" (ki-), thus having an effect on him/it.
If you have weak Kiai, then of course its' uses are shallow. If you are slow, if you have little skill, or you have little strength, then of course those uses are shallow. This might be hard to comprehend seeing that most people now in days have extremely weak Kiai.
[scenarios/examples] Say there is someone who is very quick, strong, has a lot of skill, but has very weak Kiai versus someone who has much stronger Kiai and is significantly weak in everything else compared to the person who he/she is fighting. If these two were to fight, the person with the strongest Kiai would win due to the big difference in Kiai, despite the major difference in speed, strength, and skill.
Say there is someone who is very quick, strong, has a lot of skill, but has equal Kiai to the person he/she is facing versus someone who has much strong Kiai and is significantly weak in everything else compared to the person who he/she is fighting. If these two were to fight, the person in green would win.
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Mr.Blue comes at Raze with greater speed, strength, and skill. But Raze is greater than Mr.Blue in Kiai. Mr.Blue attacks (using a katana) with great skill, speed, and strength, but Raze (has nothing but chop sticks) shouts. Raze makes Mr.Blue stops in his tracks. Then he lets out another shout while hitting him on his forehead with his chop sticks. Mr.Blue is out cold!!!!!!! After Mr.Blue wakes up Raze is still there eating Mr.Blue's monday night ramen with the chop sticks he hit him with. Mr.Blue decides to stay on the defense. This time Raze attacks and shouts again. Mr.Blue is frozen in his tracks again. Once more Raze does another shout will hitting Mr.Blue on his forehead. He is out cold.
Well, I hope everyone gets the point that Kiai is superior to skill, speed, and strength. Ice_blue did a good job explaining why skill is better than both speed and strength. Someone else also did a good job explaining why speed is better than strength (it might have been the afro samurai guy, but I forget =(...
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The existence of Kiai is quite certain and its development and use requires sincere, persistent and longtime practice, provided you believe in it.


1. Kiai means fighting spirit. It is a direct allusion to resolve. The whole concept of ki is a metaphysical concept that did not come around until modern day. There is no evidence of it's existence and is considered a pseudo-new age concept. To say it is greater than technical skill and strategy is proposterous and unfounded. I do not mean to come across as offensive, but note that stuff like this is a defilement of true martial arts, and something I take seriously. The concept of ki was twisted by "ninja" and "dim mak" and stuff like that. It has no existence in bujutsu. There are two examples of kiai in bujutsu. One is breath control, and the other is resolve. There is no evidence in any records or transmissions which involve anything what you claimed as kiai.
The only other example would be the shouting and it's use is to solidify an attack and protect against internal injury.

2. I've explained how strength and speed are not relative to combat in such aspects.

3. The example you gave [Katana vs Chopsticks] is something straight out of a manga. It's just plain silly. Mutodori does not work like that.

People who practice the type of kiai you are talking about are noted frauds.

Want examples?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&mode=related&search=

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57527&s=2fb69458c70e21f1d1a6859eab54781b&

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=19403

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Posted 10/6/08

bigm1 wrote:


desfines07 wrote:


bigm1 wrote:


Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:


desfines07 wrote:
but i still think speed is most important to have.. a big guy wielding a claymore wouldn't be able to touch a little guy with quick feet and a sharp blade.


I wouldn't be so sure. It depends on maai. Before the little guy can get close enough, the claymore would get him.

Reach, mobility, initiative, and damaging efficiency are the four factors.

Katana may be able to cut someone through while a claymore can't, but that doesn't mean a claymore can't kill as efficiently. The claymore is more blunt trauma as most European broadswords lacked a sharp blade. This was so they wouldn't break as easy. A claymore can block a sword many times over, while a katana would break after only a few clashes.

A claymore has more reach, but a katana has more mobility.
The weapons even up. The deciding factor is not in the weapon or in superficial aspects such as strength or speed or size, but rather the skill and mettle of the wielders.



so who ever makes the first mistake is the loser


umm not really


it is b/c if the claymore missed the guy wit the katana has an opening or if the guy wit the katana rushes in he could be hit wit the claymore



but the speed guy could quickly get out of the way..
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