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Post Reply Speed or Strength ?
Posted 10/6/08

Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:
1. Kiai means fighting spirit. It is a direct allusion to resolve. The whole concept of ki is a metaphysical concept that did not come around until modern day. There is no evidence of it's existence and is considered a pseudo-new age concept. To say it is greater than technical skill and strategy is proposterous and unfounded. I do not mean to come across as offensive, but note that stuff like this is a defilement of true martial arts, and something I take seriously. The concept of ki was twisted by "ninja" and "dim mak" and stuff like that. It has no existence in bujutsu. There are two examples of kiai in bujutsu. One is breath control, and the other is resolve. There is no evidence in any records or transmissions which involve anything what you claimed as kiai.
The only other example would be the shouting and it's use is to solidify an attack and protect against internal injury.
2. I've explained how strength and speed are not relative to combat in such aspects.
3. The example you gave [Katana vs Chopsticks] is something straight out of a manga. It's just plain silly. Mutodori does not work like that.
People who practice the type of kiai you are talking about are noted frauds.
Want examples?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&mode=related&search=
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57527&s=2fb69458c70e21f1d1a6859eab54781b&
http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=19403



Let me restate some of the stuff that I just said because apparently you didn't understand or read them. I will agree with you that there is not enough evidence to support that Kiaijutsu is real, but you don't have enough evidence to support that it is not real. Real until proven guilty in my understanding. If there is a rumor going around that a bomb is going to hit the white house, action will be taken as if it is real, until they have enough proof that it is a false alarm. People now in days will also probably will not be able to show so much Kiai, that they can knock over people with it due to the fact that Kiaijutsu has been lost over time and this art is kept secret. So the knowledge of it will be low, which shows in both mine and your posts because I believe we should be able to write a books worth of Kiaijutsu if we had the knowledge. If you have little knowledge on what you are learning, then how can you get stronger? Exactly you can't!!!!

What is the point of showing us a person that is a fraud at Kiaijutsu, why not show us a real one? How does that prove your stand point that skill or whatever aspect of martial art is better than Kiai? It doesn't, seeing that he is a fraud and you admitted it!!!!

My example does not come straight out of a manga or anime. It actually comes from the founder of Aikido who isn't a fraud Also, you missed the point that it was Kiai versus skill, strength, & speed. Not katana vs chopsticks!

Here is the actual literal definition of Kiai= The "ki" in kiai refers to energy, (chi or qi in Chinese) believed to be an essential force behind health and vitality, but more so, something able to be nurtured, built and stored within the body for use. "Ai" means to meet, harmonize, join or fuse. Kiai is the expression of our energy, ki, through a shout, with the intent to "meet" (-ai) "other's spiritual energy" (ki-), thus having an effect on him.

Saying spiritual energy does not exist is like saying the "Great Flood" or "Ghosts" do not exist and there are hard evidence of these existing. Zen, yoga, and meditation is based of the whole idea of Ki, so how can you say it is not true martial arts? Well I guess you just admit you are practicing fake martial arts since the mass majority of martial arts practice Zen, yoga, or/and meditation.

I do remember how you explained how speed and strength is irrelevant to skill and tactics, and I do believe I agreed with you on that. But I will still make examples or statements with them seeing how this is a debate on speed and strength.

There is not enough evidence on both sides to decide a victor. So in that case..."The existence of Kiai ...requires sincere, persistent of knowledge and longtime practice in order to master, provided you believe in it."
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Posted 10/6/08

Raze22 wrote:
Let me restate some of the stuff that I just said because apparently you didn't understand or read them. I will agree with you that there is not enough evidence to support that Kiaijutsu is real, but you don't have enough evidence to support that it is not real. Real until proven guilty in my understanding. If there is a rumor going around that a bomb is going to hit the white house, action will be taken as if it is real, until they have enough proof that it is a false alarm. People now in days will also probably will not be able to show so much Kiai, that they can knock over people with it due to the fact that Kiaijutsu has been lost over time and this art is kept secret. So the knowledge of it will be low, which shows in both mine and your posts because I believe we should be able to write a books worth of Kiaijutsu if we had the knowledge. If you have little knowledge on what you are learning, then how can you get stronger? Exactly you can't!!!!

What is the point of showing us a person that is a fraud at Kiaijutsu, why not show us a real one? How does that prove your stand point that skill or whatever aspect of martial art is better than Kiai? It doesn't, seeing that he is a fraud and you admitted it!!!!

My example does not come straight out of a manga or anime. It actually comes from the founder of Aikido who isn't a fraud Also, you missed the point that it was Kiai versus skill, strength, & speed. Not katana vs chopsticks!

Here is the actual literal definition of Kiai= The "ki" in kiai refers to energy, (chi or qi in Chinese) believed to be an essential force behind health and vitality, but more so, something able to be nurtured, built and stored within the body for use. "Ai" means to meet, harmonize, join or fuse. Kiai is the expression of our energy, ki, through a shout, with the intent to "meet" (-ai) "other's spiritual energy" (ki-), thus having an effect on him.

Saying spiritual energy does not exist is like saying the "Great Flood" or "Ghosts" do not exist and there are hard evidence of these existing. Zen, yoga, and meditation is based of the whole idea of Ki, so how can you say it is not true martial arts? Well I guess you just admit you are practicing fake martial arts since the mass majority of martial arts practice Zen, yoga, or/and meditation.

I do remember how you explained how speed and strength is irrelevant to skill and tactics, and I do believe I agreed with you on that. But I will still make examples or statements with them seeing how this is a debate on speed and strength.

There is not enough evidence on both sides to decide a victor. So in that case..."The existence of Kiai ...requires sincere, persistent of knowledge and longtime practice in order to master, provided you believe in it."


Well what do you call all the proof against frauds claiming it's utilization? That's evidence against it's existence. So given that there is no evidence supporting it yet sufficient evidence against it, I would say it's pretty safe to say it doesn't exist. Furthermore it defies elementary physics.

Lost over time? In it's form it didn't appear until modern times. There's no historical evidence of it's use.

Why not show you a real one? Hmm maybe because there is none.
Why don't you show us a real user then?
If someone could use this ability, what makes you think it wouldn't be an established fact my now? It would have been proven long ago. It's new age bullshit. It has no root in real martial arts.

It's not saying spiritual energy doesn't exist. It's saying that it's absolute fiction and preposterous for one to say you can magically use some energy to influence someone. It's a product of the western over-mysticism of the east. Furthermore to say some magic energy that clearly cannot be applied in the physics of combat is anywhere close to as important as skill let alone better is ridiculous and quite blatantly incorrect. It contradicts simple logic.

This isn't a matter of whether ki exists or not, it's a matter of you saying you can use it to magically influence people and me trying to make sense out of nonsense.

Ghosts and spirit energy alone are metaphysical. However when you start saying the metaphysical elements that influence and control physical elements, there is a conflict there.

I mean this with every bit of respect, don't get me wrong. But seriously, there's just no way. I've personally refuted in demonstrations and duels the same thing. Ninjakidimmakdeathmonkeys will do anything to make a buck and that's called bullshido.
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Posted 10/6/08

zanmatosuke wrote:

You guys really well versed in this. If I may join this discussion?

I don't have any knowledge in proper martial arts, but in terms of fighting, I have a bit of experience to it, thanks to my notorious teen age. So before I continue I want to apologize if any of this doesn't relate or such. It is purely from my experience.

In my opinion, what's important in fighting is strategy, survival instincts and experience. Strategy involves to observe the surroundings if it favors towards you, what is the capacity of your opponent and your capacity as well. As for the fight itself, the main thing is to anticipate your opponent attack and predict where to hit that hurt the most or have the highest chances to hit. This doesn't mean just hurling your attacks like a madman because this will make you fatigue faster than your opponent thus, you might lose the fight or maybe dead. It consist of calculated strikes in order to bring your opponent down.
It's hard to explain the survival instincts as I randomly picks the word out since it fits the things I always do when fighting. If I'm fighting, I always thought to myself that "I want to go home after this". Thanks to that, I'm still able to write this post today.
It might sounds like easy to do but trust me, I've been in hospital a couple of times having bruisers, stitches, etc for me to actually learns to dodge a punch and land a strike.

Answer to the thread: I think strength / speed plays a role in fighting, so as long as you know how to use it well.


That is very reasonable.

I feel strategy [thus elements like initiative, mindset, and more] and skill [which, as you implied, stems from experience] are the two most important aspects of combat.
Posted 10/6/08 , edited 10/6/08



Well what do you call all the proof against frauds claiming it's utilization? That's evidence against it's existence. So given that there is no evidence supporting it yet sufficient evidence against it, I would say it's pretty safe to say it doesn't exist. Furthermore it defies elementary physics.

Lost over time? In it's form it didn't appear until modern times. There's no historical evidence of it's use.

Why not show you a real one? Hmm maybe because there is none.
Why don't you show us a real user then?
If someone could use this ability, what makes you think it wouldn't be an established fact my now? It would have been proven long ago. It's new age bullshit. It has no root in real martial arts.

It's not saying spiritual energy doesn't exist. It's saying that it's absolute fiction and preposterous for one to say you can magically use some energy to influence someone. It's a product of the western over-mysticism of the east. Furthermore to say some magic energy that clearly cannot be applied in the physics of combat is anywhere close to as important as skill let alone better is ridiculous and quite blatantly incorrect. It contradicts simple logic.

This isn't a matter of whether ki exists or not, it's a matter of you saying you can use it to magically influence people and me trying to make sense out of nonsense.

Ghosts and spirit energy alone are metaphysical. However when you start saying the metaphysical elements that influence and control physical elements, there is a conflict there.

I mean this with every bit of respect, don't get me wrong. But seriously, there's just no way. I've personally refuted in demonstrations and duels the same thing. Ninjakidimmakdeathmonkeys will do anything to make a buck and that's called bullshido.



Don't get me wrong when I say this because I mean this with every bit of respect, but how in the fing world are frauds going to be used to say it doesn't exist. If I come and in personate you, then someone finds out I am not you, does that mean you don't exist? That has no since in being evidence what so ever. So it still remains that you have NO evidence against it and the other side has no evidence supporting it. You are contradicting simple evidence logic. I still think you don't get that you can not prove something wrong if you don't have sufficient evidence. What proof do you have that makes it not exist besides the other side not having information on it? So, we can say that it does exist because you guys have no evidence either. Is this making since yet to you? Fact wupes opinion.

If it is KEPT secret all the way up to the modern time, how would you know if it exist in the past? Well duh you can't, because it was a secret, they could have given people/society fake information (that also hurts use to just in case you don't know). Just like how they keep other stuff a secret in Japan (for ex: the way a sword is made). Also, how can you say that ghosts and spirit energy alone are metaphysical and can not control physical elements? Are you seriously kidding me with that load of bull. When there is Hard, Cold, Solid, Evidence, that ghost have controlled or/and influenced the physical elements and it is a metaphysical. So what do you say about that? Is there a conflict now? I hope not. Now that is what you call bullshido, false statements of yours, that have no clear evidence.

I just explained to you why I can't show you a real user in the other post, If you read and comprehended it. People now in days can't use Kiai in that type of way do to the lost of knowledge over time. Which I can continuously say seeing how secretisim backs it up!!!! If someone could use it by now or even if someone decided to teach them, I doubt they would come out with it, seeing that it is meant to be kept secret

Martial arts does have roots to stuff like this seeing that some come from religion and in religion there is usually gods and spiritual power involved.

In this 2nd to last paragraph, I would like to state questions unanswered by you or statements of mine that you have not opposed/avoided. "If you have little knowledge on what you are learning, then how can you get stronger? Exactly you can't!!!!" I am going to assume that you agree with this statement. "How does that prove your stand point that skill or whatever aspect of martial art is better than Kiai? It doesn't, seeing that he is a fraud and you admitted it!!!!" "Also, you missed the point that it was Kiai versus skill, strength, & speed. Not katana vs chopsticks!" "Here is the actual literal definition of Kiai= The "ki" in kiai refers to energy, (chi or qi in Chinese) believed to be an essential force behind health and vitality, but more so, something able to be nurtured, built and stored within the body for use. "Ai" means to meet, harmonize, join or fuse. Kiai is the expression of our energy, ki, through a shout, with the intent to "meet" (-ai) "other's spiritual energy" (ki-), thus having an effect on him."

There is not enough evidence on both sides to decide a victor. So in that case..."The existence of Kiai ...requires sincere, persistent of knowledge and longtime practice in order to master, provided you believe in it."

[edit for spelling errors and stuff I forgot to put in]
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Posted 10/6/08 , edited 10/6/08


I think you misunderstand. The simple fact that no legitimate example of a person who can actually use this ability has been in proven to be in existence. This coupled with the fact that it contradicts both physics and logic plus the knowledge of it's shady background and the note that all notable claimants to this ability have been frauds lead this to be considered sufficient evidence to the absence of this ability's existence.

Your analogies are flawed. If you impersonated me and you were discovered to be a fraud, no that would not mean that I do not exist. But then again my existence is self evident. Therefore that analogy is flawed.

I am not contradicting anything. You must have not read all of what I have said or something as the existence of frauds alone is not the only evidence I gave to the point of the absence of the ability in question.

Furthermore what is "evidence logic" ?? Are you resorting to making up terms now?

I've listed plenty of sufficient evidence against the existence of the ability.

Now you're just contradicting yourself. You just said it was kept secret.
If you feel I cannot know if it had existed in the past, how can you know it has been kept secret?

The way a sword is made is not at all a secret.
The metaphysical are concepts that can neither be said to exist nor not exist. These are things that are matters of belief and opinion with no fact. Though when you say something like that can control the physical, it blends two incompatible elements in that one is concrete, finite, and is in the realm of fact, and the other is not. First off that not only is offensive to other's beliefs but is simply ridiculous.

For example; you have a religious person and a practical person. They come upon a rock and the religious person states that God created this rock. Well the practical person says that the rock was created by gradual accumulation of sediment. The practical person would be correct and the religious person would be incorrect. No one can say whether or not God had anything to do with the formation of the rock, but as it is something beyond the bounds of physics, it is something out of place like a fish out of water. It not only threatens personal beliefs, but also it just has no place. A wise person keeps the metaphysical in it's own realm and separate of physical. Otherwise why would there be two completely different categories instead of one?

Now in this case that there are laws such as physics and logic that counter the existence of this magical ability you're carrying on about.

"If you have little knowledge on what you are learning, then how can you get stronger? Exactly you can't!!!!"
That just doesn't make any sense. Restate it if you want an answer.

"How does that prove your stand point that skill or whatever aspect of martial art is better than Kiai? It doesn't, seeing that he is a fraud and you admitted it!!!!"
I already answered this. That makes no sense either.
For kiai to be greater than skill; you must be claiming that you don't need any techniques to win a fight because all you have to do is shout at someone and kill them on the spot or some BS? Because if that is not what you mean, then yeah that's pretty obvious that Kiai isn't anywhere close to being as important as skill.

"Also, you missed the point that it was Kiai versus skill, strength, & speed. Not katana vs chopsticks!" You said you would disarm me with a shout that magically disables me and then poking me with chopsticks. That's not only extremely arrogant and disrespectful but is also incredibly stupid.

And I am not going to bother arguing over translations. I wasn't talking about translations in the beginning. I was talking about relation. If you want to argue semantics I would ask you where the hell in the english language you found the word "Secretisim."

"The existence of Kiai ...requires sincere, persistent of knowledge and longtime practice in order to master, provided you believe in it."
Bullshit. You just said there's not enough proof to decide a victor [even though i've stated more than enough evidence, much of which you have conveniently ignored] and now you turn right around and say that such it does exist. It doesn't work like that.


You have no proof or fact, yet you insist that we should believe this unfounded crap. It's getting ridiculous. You come in here and tell me I am wrong and say skill, experience, strategy, and all other aspects of combat are secondary to some silly magic crap? It's like trying to say DBZ is real and that you can shoot fireballs out your mouth.

If it did exist, that existence would not be disputed and as every notable account in which such an ability is claimed, such has been refuted. This is evidence. If you cannot see this, then you can have your fairytale world, but don't come here trying to tell me I am wrong. I've been in martial arts for longer than you have been born and I have seen such claimants plenty of times and guess what; I refuted every single one of them. They keep throwing BS excuses around. These people are those who defile and destroy the martial arts community. They are the reasons old wonderful arts are a dying breed. So if you insist I am wrong, then you can prove it. If you can't do that, I would hope you're mature enough to take responsibility and admit that this is a preposterous argument that cannot be taken seriously.


Basically; you can say you believe in it, but don't come in here and say it exists.

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Posted 10/6/08

Raze22 wrote:


Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:
1. Kiai means fighting spirit. It is a direct allusion to resolve. The whole concept of ki is a metaphysical concept that did not come around until modern day. There is no evidence of it's existence and is considered a pseudo-new age concept. To say it is greater than technical skill and strategy is proposterous and unfounded. I do not mean to come across as offensive, but note that stuff like this is a defilement of true martial arts, and something I take seriously. The concept of ki was twisted by "ninja" and "dim mak" and stuff like that. It has no existence in bujutsu. There are two examples of kiai in bujutsu. One is breath control, and the other is resolve. There is no evidence in any records or transmissions which involve anything what you claimed as kiai.
The only other example would be the shouting and it's use is to solidify an attack and protect against internal injury.
2. I've explained how strength and speed are not relative to combat in such aspects.
3. The example you gave [Katana vs Chopsticks] is something straight out of a manga. It's just plain silly. Mutodori does not work like that.
People who practice the type of kiai you are talking about are noted frauds.
Want examples?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&mode=related&search=
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57527&s=2fb69458c70e21f1d1a6859eab54781b&
http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=19403



Let me restate some of the stuff that I just said because apparently you didn't understand or read them. I will agree with you that there is not enough evidence to support that Kiaijutsu is real, but you don't have enough evidence to support that it is not real. Real until proven guilty in my understanding. If there is a rumor going around that a bomb is going to hit the white house, action will be taken as if it is real, until they have enough proof that it is a false alarm. People now in days will also probably will not be able to show so much Kiai, that they can knock over people with it due to the fact that Kiaijutsu has been lost over time and this art is kept secret. So the knowledge of it will be low, which shows in both mine and your posts because I believe we should be able to write a books worth of Kiaijutsu if we had the knowledge. If you have little knowledge on what you are learning, then how can you get stronger? Exactly you can't!!!!

What is the point of showing us a person that is a fraud at Kiaijutsu, why not show us a real one? How does that prove your stand point that skill or whatever aspect of martial art is better than Kiai? It doesn't, seeing that he is a fraud and you admitted it!!!!

My example does not come straight out of a manga or anime. It actually comes from the founder of Aikido who isn't a fraud Also, you missed the point that it was Kiai versus skill, strength, & speed. Not katana vs chopsticks!

Here is the actual literal definition of Kiai= The "ki" in kiai refers to energy, (chi or qi in Chinese) believed to be an essential force behind health and vitality, but more so, something able to be nurtured, built and stored within the body for use. "Ai" means to meet, harmonize, join or fuse. Kiai is the expression of our energy, ki, through a shout, with the intent to "meet" (-ai) "other's spiritual energy" (ki-), thus having an effect on him.

Saying spiritual energy does not exist is like saying the "Great Flood" or "Ghosts" do not exist and there are hard evidence of these existing. Zen, yoga, and meditation is based of the whole idea of Ki, so how can you say it is not true martial arts? Well I guess you just admit you are practicing fake martial arts since the mass majority of martial arts practice Zen, yoga, or/and meditation.

I do remember how you explained how speed and strength is irrelevant to skill and tactics, and I do believe I agreed with you on that. But I will still make examples or statements with them seeing how this is a debate on speed and strength.

There is not enough evidence on both sides to decide a victor. So in that case..."The existence of Kiai ...requires sincere, persistent of knowledge and longtime practice in order to master, provided you believe in it."



i use a chi-extension(i braing energy out from my body for use) that i have learned from my mom, aunt, and cusane. i can use my chi to creat heat, and use it for healing but not very well as my aunt. kiai is a form that uses your chi as a weapon as far as i have gatherd. not imposible but very very hard to learn i wouldnt realy know were to begin. well i mite, but i dont think anyone would understand it if i try to explain it to them. to use it you would have to tape into it, and to do that you have to find understanding of it wich is probibly hard. and when you learn to do that then we can talk. anyways, i can understand it and agree that it is posible to use but, you would still need a strong body and mind to use spirit(or chi) to the fullist. because even if you did have a great amount of chi you would need a strong body to house it and a strong mind to maintain it, otherwise you will end up hurting your self.

and to ice blue eyes. i cant belive that you dont belive in chi, or even give thought to it excisting. i mean come-on. its like a hug part in martial arts that all masters of the arts speake of and belive in. and you....you
Posted 10/7/08


Sorry if one of my analogy was flawed. I'll make sure this time around they are on point :P. Also Let me restate evidence logic so that it is an actual word. It is actually called logical evidence.

The only so called evidence you have showed so far is fraud, it never existed until modern time, and that metaphysical can not touch or/and influence physical elements. Let me prove them wrong for you one by one.

It really doesn't matter if ghosts contradicts both physics and knowledge, just as long as there is proof (which there is and seeing that you want real evidence I will eventually post them here once I have the time). Since ghosts is metaphysical (and you just said that it can not touch or/and influence physical elements) and spiritual energy is metaphysical, that already proves that Kiai can exist. It doesn't matter if you keep saying that 9-11 never happened when there is solid proof.

Frauds are Frauds. They can not prove the existence or non existence of anything.

And you mister are one of the reasons why old wonderful arts are a dying breed. You stick to books smarts so much that if...something ...hits you in the face that contradicted "Newtons law or some other scientific law." You still wouldn't believe it.


Basically; you can say you believe in it, but don't come in here and say it exists.


Why not, when you don't have enough logical evidence (which most I have proven wrong) to say that it doesn't exist?


"Also, you missed the point that it was Kiai versus skill, strength, & speed. Not katana vs chopsticks!" You said you would disarm me with a shout that magically disables me and then poking me with chopsticks. That's not only extremely arrogant and disrespectful but is also incredibly stupid.


Well it was the best example I could think of that would get through a certain someone's extremely arrogant, and incredibly stupid head.


And I am not going to bother arguing over translations. I wasn't talking about translations in the beginning. I was talking about relation. If you want to argue semantics I would ask you where the hell in the english language you found the word "Secretisim."


We don't want relation, we want actual definition. Being relatively close does not cut it, especially in a fight to the death. Secretisim is a typing error. I meant Secretism which is an actual word. http://www.reference.com/search?q=Secretism


I think you misunderstand. The simple fact that no legitimate example of a person who can actually use this ability has been in proven to be in existence.


Well Zad can heal himself


"The existence of Kiai ...requires sincere, persistent of knowledge and longtime practice in order to master, provided you believe in it."
Bullshit. You just said there's not enough proof to decide a victor [even though i've stated more than enough evidence, much of which you have conveniently ignored] and now you turn right around and say that such it does exist. It doesn't work like that.


Yes I did said neither side does not have enough proof to decide a victor. Therefore we must continue until we do have a victor. So I restated that it existed and that is how it works like that.


Now you're just contradicting yourself. You just said it was kept secret.
If you feel I cannot know if it had existed in the past, how can you know it has been kept secret?


Everyone knows the united states has secrets. Secrets are every where, you just have to realize that they are there or maybe use some common sense. And I realize that there are things kept secret in Kiaijutsu. So therefore I am not contradicting myself.


The way a sword is made is not at all a secret.


Why are soooo many of your statments bullshido? Not all blacksmiths let you see the whole process of how they make their swords, therefore it is a secret. Maybe I should buy you a dictionary so you can look up what secret means because me telling you obvisously isn't working.


Otherwise why would there be two completely different categories instead of one?


Because the man is ignorant and I so happen to be talking to one of them.


"If you have little knowledge on what you are learning, then how can you get stronger? Exactly you can't!!!!"
That just doesn't make any sense. Restate it if you want an answer.


This does make sense. You just need to comprehend what you are reading! If I have little knowledge about the art of Ki-Aikido, then how can I get stronger in it? Exactly I can't!!!!!!!!


For kiai to be greater than skill; you must be claiming that you don't need any techniques to win a fight because all you have to do is shout at someone and kill them on the spot or some BS? Because if that is not what you mean, then yeah that's pretty obvious that Kiai isn't anywhere close to being as important as skill.


No, that is not what I said. If you read my statement clearly I did not say that the person with the most Kiai did not have "any techniques" (meaning zero). Please look at this spoiler or in the post it was addressed in if you don't believe me. So once again your statement is false....



You have no proof or fact,


Technically I do, I just have to post it.


don't come here trying to tell me I am wrong.


See here is the problem, if I post it. You are wrong, no matter how you feel.


I would hope you're mature enough to take responsibility and admit that this is a preposterous argument that cannot be taken seriously.


And I hope you can do the same. Which I highly doubt it, seeing that you are conceited.

http://www.scifi.com/ghosthunters/
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Posted 10/7/08 , edited 10/7/08



That's not the only evidence I listed. If it exists, why hasn't anyone proven it yet? The only known claimants have been debunked. If something

Now you're trying to say there is proof of ghosts? I take it you've never debated before.
That in no way proves anything. You cannot prove the metaphysical thus you cannot prove the existence of the metaphysical interacting with the physical. Furthermore you stated before there's no proof on either side. Now all of a sudden you claim outrageous points as "proof" well if you want to be taken seriously, post some sources that validate your claim that such things are proven entities. If not, you're validity is flawed and thus you're statements will be rendered fallacies.

I have never heard of anyone saying 9-11 never happened. That would be as outrageous as your claims.

It isn't the existence of frauds which prove anything. That is true. But it has been the same in every single case.

That makes no sense. I support the old arts my teaching and refuting the bullshit.
First off that makes no sense in the first place as that is not a reason that would give any link to why I would help the dying of the old arts. Secondly, it's not about belief. I believe in many metaphysical concepts. I minored in philosophy for two years back when I was an undergrad in college before switching to sociology for the remaining 4 years. However I know the difference between belief and existence. I believe in God, but I do not go around claiming he exists. It's something noone knows. It's impossible to know for sure, and I find beauty in the unknown. I retain the possibility that the laws in this plane of existence might be different from the laws in the afterlife and thereby here God may not exist yet there he might. Still no one knows and I do not believe in shoving my beliefs of onto other people like what you are doing right now. I feel that forceful conversion is a disgusting and cowardly practice.

Okay now you're resulting to insults. Maybe I shouldn't have engaged in a discussion with a kid. I halfway expected you to have some maturity and decency as I had great respect for you in our previous discussions. Furthermore, I can't find any instance in where arrogance has come into my points. I have not claimed myself to be better, stronger, or smarter than you in any way. I cannot do that as I find that to ruin a perfectly fine friendly debate. Furthermore, calling me a "stupid head" isn't probably the most proper of conjunctions given the circumstances. Science and intellect is what this comes down to. If we were talking purely metaphysical, you would not see me bringing any of that up. However when we speak of an occurrence in the physical, science and intellect are those which must be looked at.

Furthermore, there will be no childish insulting here or you will be removed from the group. If you cannot handle a friendly debate and be respectful, then you can simply quit.


I am talking about relation to martial arts. For example; Maai means "interval" and thus is an ambiguous term. Many would not understand it's actual application in 'relation' to martial arts. That is what we are talking about, not relativity. Furthermore there is no concrete fact supporting your claims.


About the secretism; I was being a smartass and joking as you were getting hung up on semantics.
Just trying to lighten the mood.

The chopstick thing would be invalid as O-Sensei had great skill as well. He didn't lack skill. Still I can think of more effective mutodori techniques. Much of O-Sensei's stories have become distorted to the point of myth. There's many conflicted stories. Though I am sure he was a man of great discipline, understanding, and skill.

I can heal myself too. I have peroxide, neosporin, and bandages in my bathroom.
Bad joke, I know.

You first said there's no proof to it's existence. You admitted that. Then you said it did exist. That's a contradiction. We're talking in terms of factual matters. There's nothing supporting the existence yet plenty supporting the absence of it's existence.

Furthermore you have shown no proof at all to the validity of it's existence.

We're not talking about the existence of secrets. We're not talking about the assumption that there may be secrets, we are talking about whether something exists or not.

Now you're just being pretentious. There's no room for that in this group.

I understood the sentence but not it's relation to the subject.

There's nothing supporting why someone with kiai yet very little skill would win over someone with skill and very little kiai.
How many fights have you been in? Kiai is not even an element in terms of combat. It's a concept, in this case, which has an application that just doesn't work in commonplace. I'm not against the possibility, as much of the outcome of a battle is chance and the concept of kiai could be implemented as an element in some circumstance. However, I still refute the notion that it's existence is concrete.

If you have proof, then post it. If it's validity is not in question and the existence is confirmed, I can easily accept I was wrong. But can you? First you said there is no proof on either side and now all of a sudden you claim you magically have proof as a weapon.

It's funny how you picked apart that statement to conveniently show how conceited I am.

Ghost hunters is not proof. It's a TV show meant to entertain. They even admit at most times they can't get any proof.

I believe in the existence of things yet I am respectful and practical enough to not go around claiming they exist.

Okay look, I will mediate the issue from a neutral third party point of view.

First off, have you heard of the burden of proof? It states that for a subject to be proven, sufficient evidence that must be presented must be accepted beyond a reasonable doubt.

Furthermore, while the the evidence of the absence of a subject is not valid grounds to assume the subject is absent, the subject would be considered to be falsifiable. This does not mean the subject is false though. It just means that given it was false, there would not necessarily have to be tested evidence [thus proof] against it.

Fault by consistency is a concept where if there is no evidence to the validity of a subject, yet there is some evidence to the absence of the subject; one can rationally assume given the lack of sufficient evidence supporting it that the subject does not exist until sufficient evidence can be found.
That means that given the time right now, such a subject cannot be reasonably assumed to exist. If more evidence does surface for the validity of the subject, it would change things.

The conclusion would be that one cannot validly state that such a thing exists. It can be reasonable assumed the subject does not exist at the given time, yet that does not warrant the dismissal of the subject's concept and does not mean that given further tested evidence, the possibility of it's existence is invalid.

There. I proved us both wrong by procedure.
My flaw was I was being too adamant about the sure fact of it's non existence when in the end, it was not a matter like that. The possibility of it's existence cannot be denied, which I rushed to deny without consulting such procedures. I was wrong in that.



I know wikipedia is not a source for valid information, but this is an interesting link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi#Scientific_investigation

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zad08 wrote:
i use a chi-extension(i braing energy out from my body for use) that i have learned from my mom, aunt, and cusane. i can use my chi to creat heat, and use it for healing but not very well as my aunt. kiai is a form that uses your chi as a weapon as far as i have gatherd. not imposible but very very hard to learn i wouldnt realy know were to begin. well i mite, but i dont think anyone would understand it if i try to explain it to them. to use it you would have to tape into it, and to do that you have to find understanding of it wich is probibly hard. and when you learn to do that then we can talk. anyways, i can understand it and agree that it is posible to use but, you would still need a strong body and mind to use spirit(or chi) to the fullist. because even if you did have a great amount of chi you would need a strong body to house it and a strong mind to maintain it, otherwise you will end up hurting your self.

and to ice blue eyes. i cant belive that you dont belive in chi, or even give thought to it excisting. i mean come-on. its like a hug part in martial arts that all masters of the arts speake of and belive in. and you....you


I never once said that I do not believe in it. However I do not go around claiming it's existence. It's a mystery; something that is not known. I find beauty in the unknown, and when someone claims it's existence as fact I feel that does a great disservice to many aspects of martial arts and thus I feel I must correct this.

Infact I firmly believe in ki, though I firmly abstain from the belief in some magical power in which someone can shout and kill someone. Can you blame me? The McDojo's that claim to teach such things are those that run out all the decent and licensed traditions.
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Posted 10/7/08

Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:


zad08 wrote:
i use a chi-extension(i braing energy out from my body for use) that i have learned from my mom, aunt, and cusane. i can use my chi to creat heat, and use it for healing but not very well as my aunt. kiai is a form that uses your chi as a weapon as far as i have gatherd. not imposible but very very hard to learn i wouldnt realy know were to begin. well i mite, but i dont think anyone would understand it if i try to explain it to them. to use it you would have to tape into it, and to do that you have to find understanding of it wich is probibly hard. and when you learn to do that then we can talk. anyways, i can understand it and agree that it is posible to use but, you would still need a strong body and mind to use spirit(or chi) to the fullist. because even if you did have a great amount of chi you would need a strong body to house it and a strong mind to maintain it, otherwise you will end up hurting your self.

and to ice blue eyes. i cant belive that you dont belive in chi, or even give thought to it excisting. i mean come-on. its like a hug part in martial arts that all masters of the arts speake of and belive in. and you....you


I never once said that I do not believe in it. However I do not go around claiming it's existence. It's a mystery; something that is not known. I find beauty in the unknown, and when someone claims it's existence as fact I feel that does a great disservice to many aspects of martial arts and thus I feel I must correct this.

Infact I firmly believe in ki, though I firmly abstain from the belief in some magical power in which someone can shout and kill someone. Can you blame me? The McDojo's that claim to teach such things are those that run out all the decent and licensed traditions.


well i dont know about the holl shouting thing, though volcal tones can be used to help focuse your mind to drect your chi

and yea iv heard about thoughs. i followed up on some but there all just a bunch off pot crack head that are trying to make some money off of little kids.
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Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:

I can heal myself too. I have peroxide, neosporin, and bandages in my bathroom.
Bad joke, I know.


I know wikipedia is not a source for valid information, but this is an interesting link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi#Scientific_investigation



I love it, I have a first aide kit too.....but mine is not in the bathroom it's in the kitchen and one in the car.

as for wiki...................
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As Icy said it all depends on your art and your teacher. In naginatajutsu I was taught patience is the most important attribute to have, speed helps and strength doesn't really come into play that much with this weapon it relies more on kinetic energy and gravity. In Kyudo accuracy is the most important attribute for this art. Speed and strength don't really come into play when you pick off an opponent at 30 meters.
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Posted 10/9/08


I believe I mentioned that I know wikipedia is not a source for valid information so I don't think it has anything to do with me being lazy.

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Posted 10/9/08

silverfizz wrote:

As Icy said it all depends on your art and your teacher. In naginatajutsu I was taught patience is the most important attribute to have, speed helps and strength doesn't really come into play that much with this weapon it relies more on kinetic energy and gravity. In Kyudo accuracy is the most important attribute for this art. Speed and strength don't really come into play when you pick off an opponent at 30 meters.


That's a good point. Though I was mainly referring to swordsmanship [which is what this group is mainly about] I should have mentioned that other arts had different priorities. Thank you for sharing that.
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Posted 10/9/08

Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:



I believe I mentioned that I know wikipedia is not a source for valid information so I don't think it has anything to do with me being lazy.



Oh.......come on you thought it was funny admit it Bunnie! When you saw that it made you chuckle, I know it did.
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