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Post Reply Speed or Strength ?
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Posted 10/9/08

silverfizz wrote:


Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:



I believe I mentioned that I know wikipedia is not a source for valid information so I don't think it has anything to do with me being lazy.



Oh.......come on you thought it was funny admit it Bunnie! When you saw that it made you chuckle, I know it did.


I did at first because it's true. But then I was like "Hey! She's calling me lazy!"

Posted 10/19/08


Sorry if I offended anyone in any type of way. This goes specifically to blue seeing that I insulted him in my posts. Another thing I would also like to address is that I shouldn't have even mentioned Kiaijutsu because that is not what the topic is even about. 私は誰の許しを請う.
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Posted 10/19/08

Raze22 wrote:
Sorry if I offended anyone in any type of way. This goes specifically to blue seeing that I insulted him in my posts. Another thing I would also like to address is that I shouldn't have even mentioned Kiaijutsu because that is not what the topic is even about. 私は誰の許しを請う.


Don't worry about it, man. I took no real offense. I just wanted everyone to get along and abide by the rules.

It is true that we got off topic, but I didn't say anything as I felt part of our discussion fit in somewhat with the topic.


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Posted 10/29/08
I think Speed is more important because even if your strong and your not fast enough you can't hit your enemy but if your fast and not strong you'll at least be able to damage your enemy a little or use your speed to create some kind of offensive strategy to deal more damage.
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Posted 10/30/08
I think you need strength,too have speed in fencing. I mean it's hard to explain the feeling! O.K. It's like whipping a willow branch into the wind..you know that feeling in your shoulders.Thats it.
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Posted 10/31/08

Dormantstoney wrote:

I think you need strength,too have speed in fencing. I mean it's hard to explain the feeling! O.K. It's like whipping a willow branch into the wind..you know that feeling in your shoulders.Thats it.


umm ... maybee
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Posted 10/31/08
Never mind.........
Posted 11/30/08
wow...i read a lot of posts and i can see a few people really do know their stuff....i cant claim to know anything for sure, seein as i never really had an opportunity to study anything worthwhile......so if i say something completely wrong try not to call me an idiot because im tellin you right now there's a lot i dont know. but if i had to choose between strength and speed i would choose speed. speed is more important because if you arent strong enough to pick up a sword and cut in the first place you shouldnt be fighting. the well made sword will cut with little effort i imagine, and so if you deliver a quick strike you will cut your opponent. speed is necessary to dodge attacks or counter attacks, plus that one quick strike could very well win you the fight......thats my opinion on the subject......like i said i cant back it up with years of experience but thats just the logic i worked out in my head......
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Posted 12/1/08

ihatemath7 wrote:

wow...i read a lot of posts and i can see a few people really do know their stuff....i cant claim to know anything for sure, seein as i never really had an opportunity to study anything worthwhile......so if i say something completely wrong try not to call me an idiot because im tellin you right now there's a lot i dont know. but if i had to choose between strength and speed i would choose speed. speed is more important because if you arent strong enough to pick up a sword and cut in the first place you shouldnt be fighting. the well made sword will cut with little effort i imagine, and so if you deliver a quick strike you will cut your opponent. speed is necessary to dodge attacks or counter attacks, plus that one quick strike could very well win you the fight......thats my opinion on the subject......like i said i cant back it up with years of experience but thats just the logic i worked out in my head......


Your humility is a sign of wisdom and maturity, both traits which I respect. Those who know their weaknesses as well as their strengths are those who swifter move towards knowledge. It's only those who expound on things incorrectly and thus lead others astray who I would dare call an idiot.

You have made a very good point. If someone is strong enough to efficiently wield the sword, then they are strong enough to use it. A well made sword does require very little force to cut, though knowledge of hasuji, tachisuji, and kakudo (angles of cuts, angles of swings, transition, blade geometry, anatomy, and quality of cut angle) are the difference between an efficient cut with adequate stopping power or a shallow inefficient 'slice' that carries no deep injury.
As for quick strikes, one needs to be fast enough to deliver the strike appropriately. Aside this, speed has no other use, however this does show that speed is more important than strength, and that you are undoubtedly correct. You're conclusion is logical and I hope I have been able to contribute my perspective to better both confirm your conclusion and share my own knowledge with you.
Posted 12/1/08

Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:


ihatemath7 wrote:

wow...i read a lot of posts and i can see a few people really do know their stuff....i cant claim to know anything for sure, seein as i never really had an opportunity to study anything worthwhile......so if i say something completely wrong try not to call me an idiot because im tellin you right now there's a lot i dont know. but if i had to choose between strength and speed i would choose speed. speed is more important because if you arent strong enough to pick up a sword and cut in the first place you shouldnt be fighting. the well made sword will cut with little effort i imagine, and so if you deliver a quick strike you will cut your opponent. speed is necessary to dodge attacks or counter attacks, plus that one quick strike could very well win you the fight......thats my opinion on the subject......like i said i cant back it up with years of experience but thats just the logic i worked out in my head......


Your humility is a sign of wisdom and maturity, both traits which I respect. Those who know their weaknesses as well as their strengths are those who swifter move towards knowledge. It's only those who expound on things incorrectly and thus lead others astray who I would dare call an idiot.

You have made a very good point. If someone is strong enough to efficiently wield the sword, then they are strong enough to use it. A well made sword does require very little force to cut, though knowledge of hasuji, tachisuji, and kakudo (angles of cuts, angles of swings, transition, blade geometry, anatomy, and quality of cut angle) are the difference between an efficient cut with adequate stopping power or a shallow inefficient 'slice' that carries no deep injury.
As for quick strikes, one needs to be fast enough to deliver the strike appropriately. Aside this, speed has no other use, however this does show that speed is more important than strength, and that you are undoubtedly correct. You're conclusion is logical and I hope I have been able to contribute my perspective to better both confirm your conclusion and share my own knowledge with you.


yes thank you i really appreciate your input. i have been aware that there is more to the sword than simply drawing and fighting and you really do seem to have a vast, educated grasp on topics not only about the blade but also behind the scenes so to speak. the actual nature of combat and the knowledge of things other than blunt strength and speed you possess really amazes me. i have never considered the actual angles of cuts or swings, let alone the actual geometry of the blade. if i could ask could you delve into a little more detail about what makes a cut an efficient cut and what makes a cut a poor cut? what are the things to consider during an actual fight that may save your life and what should you have prior knowledge of in order to deliver effective strikes? this is all stuff i dont know and because of my academic lifestyle and location i am unable to find out on my own. i do research but i cant validate any information, because as we all know wikipedia isnt the greatest source out there and i dont completely trust the internet anyway. you seem to have a lot of knowledge on the subject and if you could share that with me i would be really grateful!
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Posted 12/2/08

ihatemath7 wrote:
yes thank you i really appreciate your input. i have been aware that there is more to the sword than simply drawing and fighting and you really do seem to have a vast, educated grasp on topics not only about the blade but also behind the scenes so to speak. the actual nature of combat and the knowledge of things other than blunt strength and speed you possess really amazes me. i have never considered the actual angles of cuts or swings, let alone the actual geometry of the blade. if i could ask could you delve into a little more detail about what makes a cut an efficient cut and what makes a cut a poor cut? what are the things to consider during an actual fight that may save your life and what should you have prior knowledge of in order to deliver effective strikes? this is all stuff i dont know and because of my academic lifestyle and location i am unable to find out on my own. i do research but i cant validate any information, because as we all know wikipedia isnt the greatest source out there and i dont completely trust the internet anyway. you seem to have a lot of knowledge on the subject and if you could share that with me i would be really grateful!


I am just another student in the martial way that has his diligence rewarded with experience.
I would be more than happy to elaborate on the subject, though I should note the specifics and actual understanding of these concepts can only come from experience. It's difficult to relate in words.

A cut involves several factors.

1. Anatomy; This factors in everything from vital organs to weak points in armor. The most efficient cut is that which is severs the most easily reachable of vital points in the body.
2. Blade Geometry; This factors which part of the blade is doing the cutting. It's completely relative to the cut itself so it's hard to elaborate on. A cut may start from near the kissaki [upper 2 inches] and follow through to the base of the blade.
3. Angle of swing; The angle of the swing dictates both where the cut is aimed at and how the cut will be implemented. It is also hard to elaborate on.
4. Angle of cut; This refers to the blade's angle after the cut has started. For maximum efficiency, this is imperative.

As for things to consider during combat, I would say nothing. All considerations should be made and understood before one resolves them self to the fight. These come only from experience and the understanding that comes from it. The reason for this is as there is absolutely no adequate time to think during combat, it is indeed considered completely ineffective and potentially deadly to do so. This is where the concept of mushin comes in. Mushin, or 'no mind,' is a mindset or state which refers practically to a state of pure reaction rooted in reflex in which techniques that are trained to muscle memory [a purely subconscious comprehension] are utilized without conscious thought and metaphysically the state of your mind not stopping on any one thing and flowing purely so as to not succumb or be captured by conscious thought. The -only- way to attain this state is through many years of practice under a certified and professional instructor; which in the case of Japanese swordsmanship means training in koryu bujutsu which are defined as martial arts created by the bushi class for the bushi class [primarily exclusively] and having a recorded and historically verified and valid lineage that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. This excludes kendo, which is technically a sport and not a martial art at all, and gendai budo.

Wikipedia is great for quick references, but as you implied, absolutely not a valid source of information. I believe the best source of information is experience, but understanding is fostered by a reinforcement [upon said experience] of valid information and logic, so I will help you with anything that I am capable of.

I have a group in which you might find interesting and beneficial to your pursuit of knowledge; It's called The Art of War and here's the link: http://www.crunchyroll.com/group/The_Art_of_War




Posted 12/2/08

Ice_Blue_Eyes wrote:


ihatemath7 wrote:
yes thank you i really appreciate your input. i have been aware that there is more to the sword than simply drawing and fighting and you really do seem to have a vast, educated grasp on topics not only about the blade but also behind the scenes so to speak. the actual nature of combat and the knowledge of things other than blunt strength and speed you possess really amazes me. i have never considered the actual angles of cuts or swings, let alone the actual geometry of the blade. if i could ask could you delve into a little more detail about what makes a cut an efficient cut and what makes a cut a poor cut? what are the things to consider during an actual fight that may save your life and what should you have prior knowledge of in order to deliver effective strikes? this is all stuff i dont know and because of my academic lifestyle and location i am unable to find out on my own. i do research but i cant validate any information, because as we all know wikipedia isnt the greatest source out there and i dont completely trust the internet anyway. you seem to have a lot of knowledge on the subject and if you could share that with me i would be really grateful!


I am just another student in the martial way that has his diligence rewarded with experience.
I would be more than happy to elaborate on the subject, though I should note the specifics and actual understanding of these concepts can only come from experience. It's difficult to relate in words.

A cut involves several factors.

1. Anatomy; This factors in everything from vital organs to weak points in armor. The most efficient cut is that which is severs the most easily reachable of vital points in the body.
2. Blade Geometry; This factors which part of the blade is doing the cutting. It's completely relative to the cut itself so it's hard to elaborate on. A cut may start from near the kissaki [upper 2 inches] and follow through to the base of the blade.
3. Angle of swing; The angle of the swing dictates both where the cut is aimed at and how the cut will be implemented. It is also hard to elaborate on.
4. Angle of cut; This refers to the blade's angle after the cut has started. For maximum efficiency, this is imperative.

As for things to consider during combat, I would say nothing. All considerations should be made and understood before one resolves them self to the fight. These come only from experience and the understanding that comes from it. The reason for this is as there is absolutely no adequate time to think during combat, it is indeed considered completely ineffective and potentially deadly to do so. This is where the concept of mushin comes in. Mushin, or 'no mind,' is a mindset or state which refers practically to a state of pure reaction rooted in reflex in which techniques that are trained to muscle memory [a purely subconscious comprehension] are utilized without conscious thought and metaphysically the state of your mind not stopping on any one thing and flowing purely so as to not succumb or be captured by conscious thought. The -only- way to attain this state is through many years of practice under a certified and professional instructor; which in the case of Japanese swordsmanship means training in koryu bujutsu which are defined as martial arts created by the bushi class for the bushi class [primarily exclusively] and having a recorded and historically verified and valid lineage that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. This excludes kendo, which is technically a sport and not a martial art at all, and gendai budo.

Wikipedia is great for quick references, but as you implied, absolutely not a valid source of information. I believe the best source of information is experience, but understanding is fostered by a reinforcement [upon said experience] of valid information and logic, so I will help you with anything that I am capable of.

I have a group in which you might find interesting and beneficial to your pursuit of knowledge; It's called The Art of War and here's the link: http://www.crunchyroll.com/group/The_Art_of_War






okay i gotcha....thanks! even if i can only really learn those through experience at least i have already seen the theory and know the definitions of combat and a good cut. and with that im a little ahead of some other people! thanks again for sharing all the information and elaborating as best you could. and yea i had already joined that group, i read your profile page like a day or two ago before i starting submitting to the forums and found the link on there so i joined in! i havent properly checked it out yet because of all the crap my school is trying to get me to do but once i get some free time ill take a look. and i hope that as the discussions continue you might be able to answer a few more questions i may have.....i would really appreciate learning as much as i can!
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