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Christianity a copy cat religion?
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Posted 10/30/08

makix wrote:


JJT2 wrote:


makix wrote:

Once you can grasp around the fact that most religion has been made up in the past as a means of controlling the mass, you can accept that fact that most religions originate from beliefs and stories from the earliest civilizations. (Example, Egypt when Pharaohs and all that good stuff existed)


not all religions was made to control people (not Christianity ne way), Christianity started in the middle easts, Europeans took it in and did all kinds of crap to it...ultimatly abusing it until Martin Luther stepped in started the chance...peace over war



Ohhh, you think Christianity wasn't used to control people? You need to read your history son, and none of that dumb stupid eurocentric textbook crap that you are required to read in your shit-institutionalized educational facilities (AKA, K-12 education). Go find a real book about Eurocentrism and how Christianity paved the way for moral and physical enslavement. Judging from your previous responses that I painfully read in agony and disgust, you're a grade A manipulated retard (And this is a euphemism to what I really want to say to you). Then again, I should probably make a career out of manipulating people like you for easy and pathetic money. Darn... my moral ethics are getting in the way of my intellectual prowess.

Ever hear of Pat Robertson? This guy makes millions of money off of "donations for his spiritual crusade". This is pretty much neo-slavery since wealth is power these days; then again, this isn't slavery in another sense because there's actually people stupid enough to give money to this jackass along with other hypocrite evangelical activists. But in general, it's very similar to slavery. Having a vast number of people kneeling to you because they believe that you're superior. The "YOU WILL GO TO HELL" is their whip and "BLESS YOU BLESSED SOUL!" is their oatmeal mush which they feed you.


i said Chrsitianity was never made to control people- that was not what Jesus intended. Did i ever use the word "used'?..lets see

"not all religions was made to control people"- me...certainly i said made...Christianity's purpose was/is to teach morality.Early Europeans screwed it up. Some Americans screw it up to.That was never its purpose...just as dynamite was meant to be used for construction...not war...and u need to read my other responses from other religous topics.I always make the most recent comment. Just put in religion in the forum search bar and u will see me saying the last thing.

Ever hear of any of my pastors? Just as i thought. Currupted souls dont mean a thing on the whole religion its self. Ne Christian organization that makes money off of its followers can hardly call themselves Christians.Thats not in the Bible, and they r just doing what those early Europeans did before them.Understand Christianity through mainly Jesus and the Bible.Not just a few rotten apples that fall off of a twisted sick interpretation of what the Bible shouldnt be used for AKA- Ku Klux Klan.

"you're a grade A manipulated retard"
sounds to me like the quote of a guy who is fundamentally no different than the very idea of your view of Christians you claim to know so much about . peace over war


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Posted 10/30/08

mikejacobs wrote:

You know, I have to say, does anyone ever stop and think about the creator/divine being/god ==, we keep making him/her/thing into what we want, as if he's your property to manipulate. Really, the overall objective of religion is rather political, a means of controlling the masses, look at the reference of Jesus being a shepherd and the masses being sheep, feels as if he's the one who's leading us to the butcher. Admit it Christians, your religion is just one of the many religions and also one of the political control ideology.


you can interpret the Bible ne way you want- but my interpretation is Jesus being the goal and the masses must become that goal.
Early Europeans used religion as a political tool, but today its overall objective is to teach morallity.Some people tend to use it in currupted ways, but that was never its objective.I live in a secular country, so religion plays no part in government polocies.Besides, Jesus had 12 deciples, it was never his objective to control ne one.He ultimatly was killed because of the betrayal of one of his disiples.He never intended for Christianity to be used in ne other way he used it as.Jesus healed people, he didnt kill/brainwash/control people.As for those early Europeans...dont get me started....peace over war
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Posted 10/30/08

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


JJT2 wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

'NO real evidence for Jesus! None at all. 0 is the number of evidence for a Jesus person from the bible.' NO one at his time even spoke of a Jesus! Such a person yet at the time no one talked about him. Sounds fishy to me.'


there is evidence for Jesus, and besides, if he didnt start Christianity who did? What country r u from? Who ever started Christianity is "Jesus"...Jesus represents the firsts person to start the religion..which was deprived from Jewdisms...peace over war


Would you like to show some Evidence for this person? You know using some "real evidence".


you look up the evidence, its irrelavent ne way. The Bible is real, its visible- you can see it, and it has pages and words.Its as real as u can get.What the Bible teaches is also real.and thats the main point. peace over war
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Posted 10/30/08

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


SaigonSon wrote:

Religion is based on faith not fact. But does it really matter if Jesus or Buddha were real? NO, what should hold the most weight is the philosophy and the lessons of their teachings.
And what does it teach? Its can be translated any way they want. SO one person gets out of the bible that murder and rape is ok as long as those that he killed and raped are not Christian. Others might get out of the Bible that its ok to kill kids for laughing at a bald guy. . So tell me what did the bible teach you?



wow...im surprised to know some people actually understand the Bible can be interpretated in many ways peace over war
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JJT2 wrote:
i said Chrsitianity was never made to control people- that was not what Jesus intended. Did i ever use the word "used'?..lets see

"not all religions was made to control people"- me...certainly i said made...Christianity's purpose was/is to teach morality.Early Europeans screwed it up. Some Americans screw it up to.That was never its purpose...just as dynamite was meant to be used for construction...not war...and u need to read my other responses from other religious topics.I always make the most recent comment. Just put in religion in the forum search bar and u will see me saying the last thing.

Ever hear of any of my pastors? Just as i thought. Currupted souls dont mean a thing on the whole religion its self. Ne Christian organization that makes money off of its followers can hardly call themselves Christians.Thats not in the Bible, and they r just doing what those early Europeans did before them.Understand Christianity through mainly Jesus and the Bible.Not just a few rotten apples that fall off of a twisted sick interpretation of what the Bible shouldnt be used for AKA- Ku Klux Klan.

"you're a grade A manipulated retard"
sounds to me like the quote of a guy who is fundamentally no different than the very idea of your view of Christians you claim to know so much about . peace over war


You're missing the point; Christianity was made by PEOPLE as a religion to control the mass. As Marx states, religion is a tool to control the proletarians by the wealthy. Back then, before such advanced technology of monitoring and security, you had no defense against a mass number of people aside from a few soldiers at your disposal. What better way to control them with the promise of eternal damnation in fiery hell? This is a barrier which I don't see you'll ever go over since you will be required to give up your faith in your religion.


You honestly think religion was created to give people guide about what to do and what not to do? Do you really have that little faith in humanity that they will be lost without religion? In the case that religion was never invented, the similar laws of "don't steal, don't kill, don't sleep with your neighbor's wife" would have still emerged. It's basic logic of "Don't do things to other people that you hate". The whole point of religion was to give people the image that they are insects in a very big world of God and that if they don't follow certain orders, they will burn. Sounds more like it was created for the purpose of manipulation, don't you think?
Christians, or any religion in general, has a way of trying to convert people when there is no concrete evidence that can be used to prove the existence of a God. That itself makes religion in general a culture of dangerous potential. Sure, there's moderates who claim that religion should not be be labeled with extremists; but that's exactly the problem. We're too lenient on religion and we have this ideology that we shouldn't invade into what other people believe. People are so scared these days to outwardly criticize against beliefs that is standing on the invisible pattern of faith. This alone is a threat to our society from progressing into a state of rationalization and science. Again, this is a very polar view of what you have and I doubt you'll agree with me to drop your religion because, after all, humans are emotionally weak. As Galileo states, why use religion when "God" gave us brains with the power to think intellectually and critically.

I know a lot about religion, or Christianity for that matter. I've gotten myself deeply interested in what religion has done to our society. Countless bloodsheds, violence, discrimination all as the result of something as stupid a religion. This is what baffles me - people who follow religion think they're different. In truth, you're not. People think they're different because of the ability of hindsight into history and the progression of society with new laws and regulations. In reality, religion itself is the exact same. It's still the same "BELIEVE IN JESUS AND YOU WILL BE WITH GOD!" bullcrap which pretty much brainwashes people away from progressive laws and decisions simply because they interfere with the fundamentalist beliefs. The world itself would be a better place if people resorted more to science, rationalization, and critical thinking rather than reading a very very old book and believing in a religion, which is pretty much a big giant bureaucracy.

And don't label me with the Christians or any religion for that matter, it sickens me to the deepest crevice of my stomach. I have the modesty to acknowledge that there are things in the world that I never know and I strive to find these answers. It's annoying when intellectually inferior people come up to you claiming they know the "truth" when they can't prove jack shit without using logical fallacies.


Going back to the topic, there's a precise reason why most religions have similar elements of "Good being" and "Evil being" where people who succumb to the devil-equivalent will be punished and the story of a prophet as a medium between God and the people. It's the human nature of the desire to control other people. There's a reason why this religion is dominant in largely stratified societies while societies that live without any real hierarchy have religions that focus on nature.

If you are the leader of a city that have levels - you need to inflict fear to the people to deter them from killing you in your sleep and taking over your city.

If you are the leader of a tribe that respects nature and live with it - you need a religion that respects nature in the form of animism.
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Posted 10/30/08

JJT2 wrote:


mikejacobs wrote:

You know, I have to say, does anyone ever stop and think about the creator/divine being/god ==, we keep making him/her/thing into what we want, as if he's your property to manipulate. Really, the overall objective of religion is rather political, a means of controlling the masses, look at the reference of Jesus being a shepherd and the masses being sheep, feels as if he's the one who's leading us to the butcher. Admit it Christians, your religion is just one of the many religions and also one of the political control ideology.


you can interpret the Bible ne way you want- but my interpretation is Jesus being the goal and the masses must become that goal.
Early Europeans used religion as a political tool, but today its overall objective is to teach morallity.Some people tend to use it in currupted ways, but that was never its objective.I live in a secular country, so religion plays no part in government polocies.Besides, Jesus had 12 deciples, it was never his objective to control ne one.He ultimatly was killed because of the betrayal of one of his disiples.He never intended for Christianity to be used in ne other way he used it as.Jesus healed people, he didnt kill/brainwash/control people.As for those early Europeans...dont get me started....peace over war


I am pretty sure that I heard somewhere that said Jesus can see the future.....Hmmm.....
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Posted 10/30/08

makix wrote:


JJT2 wrote:
i said Chrsitianity was never made to control people- that was not what Jesus intended. Did i ever use the word "used'?..lets see

"not all religions was made to control people"- me...certainly i said made...Christianity's purpose was/is to teach morality.Early Europeans screwed it up. Some Americans screw it up to.That was never its purpose...just as dynamite was meant to be used for construction...not war...and u need to read my other responses from other religious topics.I always make the most recent comment. Just put in religion in the forum search bar and u will see me saying the last thing.

Ever hear of any of my pastors? Just as i thought. Currupted souls dont mean a thing on the whole religion its self. Ne Christian organization that makes money off of its followers can hardly call themselves Christians.Thats not in the Bible, and they r just doing what those early Europeans did before them.Understand Christianity through mainly Jesus and the Bible.Not just a few rotten apples that fall off of a twisted sick interpretation of what the Bible shouldnt be used for AKA- Ku Klux Klan.

"you're a grade A manipulated retard"
sounds to me like the quote of a guy who is fundamentally no different than the very idea of your view of Christians you claim to know so much about . peace over war


You're missing the point; Christianity was made by PEOPLE as a religion to control the mass. As Marx states, religion is a tool to control the proletarians by the wealthy. Back then, before such advanced technology of monitoring and security, you had no defense against a mass number of people aside from a few soldiers at your disposal. What better way to control them with the promise of eternal damnation in fiery hell? This is a barrier which I don't see you'll ever go over since you will be required to give up your faith in your religion.


You honestly think religion was created to give people guide about what to do and what not to do? Do you really have that little faith in humanity that they will be lost without religion? In the case that religion was never invented, the similar laws of "don't steal, don't kill, don't sleep with your neighbor's wife" would have still emerged. It's basic logic of "Don't do things to other people that you hate". The whole point of religion was to give people the image that they are insects in a very big world of God and that if they don't follow certain orders, they will burn. Sounds more like it was created for the purpose of manipulation, don't you think?
Christians, or any religion in general, has a way of trying to convert people when there is no concrete evidence that can be used to prove the existence of a God. That itself makes religion in general a culture of dangerous potential. Sure, there's moderates who claim that religion should not be be labeled with extremists; but that's exactly the problem. We're too lenient on religion and we have this ideology that we shouldn't invade into what other people believe. People are so scared these days to outwardly criticize against beliefs that is standing on the invisible pattern of faith. This alone is a threat to our society from progressing into a state of rationalization and science. Again, this is a very polar view of what you have and I doubt you'll agree with me to drop your religion because, after all, humans are emotionally weak. As Galileo states, why use religion when "God" gave us brains with the power to think intellectually and critically.

I know a lot about religion, or Christianity for that matter. I've gotten myself deeply interested in what religion has done to our society. Countless bloodsheds, violence, discrimination all as the result of something as stupid a religion. This is what baffles me - people who follow religion think they're different. In truth, you're not. People think they're different because of the ability of hindsight into history and the progression of society with new laws and regulations. In reality, religion itself is the exact same. It's still the same "BELIEVE IN JESUS AND YOU WILL BE WITH GOD!" bullcrap which pretty much brainwashes people away from progressive laws and decisions simply because they interfere with the fundamentalist beliefs. The world itself would be a better place if people resorted more to science, rationalization, and critical thinking rather than reading a very very old book and believing in a religion, which is pretty much a big giant bureaucracy.

And don't label me with the Christians or any religion for that matter, it sickens me to the deepest crevice of my stomach. I have the modesty to acknowledge that there are things in the world that I never know and I strive to find these answers. It's annoying when intellectually inferior people come up to you claiming they know the "truth" when they can't prove jack shit without using logical fallacies.


Going back to the topic, there's a precise reason why most religions have similar elements of "Good being" and "Evil being" where people who succumb to the devil-equivalent will be punished and the story of a prophet as a medium between God and the people. It's the human nature of the desire to control other people. There's a reason why this religion is dominant in largely stratified societies while societies that live without any real hierarchy have religions that focus on nature.

If you are the leader of a city that have levels - you need to inflict fear to the people to deter them from killing you in your sleep and taking over your city.

If you are the leader of a tribe that respects nature and live with it - you need a religion that respects nature in the form of animism.

"You're missing the point; Christianity was made by PEOPLE as a religion to control the mass. As Marx states, religion is a tool to control the proletarians by the wealthy."

Christianity was made by a person...Jesus...he did not create it to control the mass.Goverments do that.Jesus made it to teach morality and fullfil the old testament. Its in the Bible.Christianity was made by Jesus and it was recorded in the Bible.You cant understand Christianity without understanding it in the eyes of the people (Jesus) who created it.You have to think what they might have thought.Chrsitianity was not created to control any body. Jesus had 12 diciples.12 aint exactly a mass. And he didnt control him. They chose to follow him.Its in the Bible dude.Marx didnt create any religion and he certainly didnt help in creating Chrsitianity.Religion can be used as a tool to control the proletarians by the wealthy. But that was not its purpose.Jesus didnt die some rich, high respected man with tons of followers and all that crap.He was crucified because of his religion.
And i have said this b4, but those early Europeans combined Christianity with thier government. Governments are currpted. They have always been that way. There is no perfect government.Governments will always be currpted to some degree.When you combine priest with politicians, you get an ugly mix of lies and contridictions.Politicians are known for being two faced liars to begin with. They dont need a religion to do what they do best- lie. When you put a religion in thier hands, they just currupt like they do everything else.Same with democracy and communism- both are good forms of government- niether exists today.No governemt today has ever truly went by all of the rules placed by democracy and communism.People simply get in office and currupt both forms.Turning Communism into some dictatorship. And turning democracy into some form of rediculas child-like logic way of protecting people from them selves.I know im getting off topic, but if u throw Chrsitianity into that mess, it just gets messier. Seperation of church and state- its the only way to go.

"Back then, before such advanced technology of monitoring and security, you had no defense against a mass number of people aside from a few soldiers at your disposal. What better way to control them with the promise of eternal damnation in fiery hell? This is a barrier which I don't see you'll ever go over since you will be required to give up your faith in your religion."

the "beforce such advanced technology of monitoring and security" sounds a little self concieted.You sound as if the advancement of science/ technology was the sole driving force in advancing every aspect of people's thoughts, religion,ect.

and yes, u had defense agasint a mass load of people- with a massive army.Countries back then tended to use armies a lot, you better believe they were massive.

As i have said before religion was used by early Europeans to control people- once again it was never made for that reason. The Europeans didnt even make Chrsitianity.Jesus was a jew.

"What better way to control them with the promise of eternal damnation in fiery hell? This is a barrier which I don't see you'll ever go over since you will be required to give up your faith in your religion.""

for the first question, some dictatorships killed many people by using no religion at all, they just controled with the governemt alone, using the same scare tactics, perhaps that way was more proficient?.Seems to me this proves the problem is simply more fundamental than a religion...more like government...or better yet, lets get to the root-people...currupted people.
As for the 2nd quesion, i realise that some people used/ use Chrsitianity as a tool of war/government to control people.That doesnt prove that thats what Chrisitanity should/meant (to) be used for.Religion can be used for a lot of things actually.
So i dont understand what the barrier is/represents and i am not required to do ne thing in ne body's name. I make my own choices-its called free will.and do u even know or understand what my faith is?Do u even understand the religion its self through the eyes of everyone who practices it?, through my eyes?? :sweatingbullets:understand the past through the eyes and minds of the people that lived there.


"You honestly think religion was created to give people guide about what to do and what not to do? Do you really have that little faith in humanity that they will be lost without religion? In the case that religion was never invented, the similar laws of "don't steal, don't kill, don't sleep with your neighbor's wife" would have still emerged. It's basic logic of "Don't do things to other people that you hate". The whole point of religion was to give people the image that they are insects in a very big world of God and that if they don't follow certain orders, they will burn. Sounds more like it was created for the purpose of manipulation, don't you think?"

1st question-i dont know about all religions, because they each had different purposes.But as for Christianity- it had but one-morality.

2nd-I never once said humanity would be lost without religion.My faith in humanity has nothing to do with this topic.There are many ways to achieve enlightenment and morality- religion is just one way- what works for me may not work for you.

you basic logic isnt the same logic people had back in those times. Check out the philosophers of that time to get an understanding of thier logic, not your own.

"The whole point of religion was to give people the image that they are insects in a very big world of God and that if they don't follow certain orders, they will burn. Sounds more like it was created for the purpose of manipulation, don't you think?""

Some religions have multiple gods, others have none. Some religions dont have a heaven nor hell.That logic,im assuming, must be directed at Chrsitianity. You can interpret the Bible ne way you want. I interpret it as a father/children type of relationship.The certain "orders" as you call them are simply guidelines to follow to help you live your life in a way that is pleasing to God.At the end we will all be judged on just how well we followed those guildlines.God is forgiving and merciful.He knows our flaws better then we do.Thats part of my interpretation ne way.Yea, i left parts out, not trying to preach here.
It sounds to me your interpretation makes it sound like some government created tool used to control people.To bad you cant use Biblicle scriptures to back that up and yes, you bet i can provide a scripture for each and every sentence i just stated, but im not here to preach.


"Christians, or any religion in general, has a way of trying to convert people when there is no concrete evidence that can be used to prove the existence of a God. That itself makes religion in general a culture of dangerous potential. Sure, there's moderates who claim that religion should not be be labeled with extremists; but that's exactly the problem. We're too lenient on religion and we have this ideology that we shouldn't invade into what other people believe. People are so scared these days to outwardly criticize against beliefs that is standing on the invisible pattern of faith. This alone is a threat to our society from progressing into a state of rationalization and science. Again, this is a very polar view of what you have and I doubt you'll agree with me to drop your religion because, after all, humans are emotionally weak. As Galileo states, why use religion when "God" gave us brains with the power to think intellectually and critically."

LMAO, do u even realise the irony of that statement?
Lets break this down

"Christians, or any religion in general, has a way of trying to convert people when there is no concrete evidence that can be used to prove the existence of a God."
Religions dont even need a God, and your point?

"That itself makes religion in general a culture of dangerous potential. Sure, there's moderates who claim that religion should not be be labeled with extremists; but that's exactly the problem. We're too lenient on religion and we have this ideology that we shouldn't invade into what other people believe. People are so scared these days to outwardly criticize against beliefs that is standing on the invisible pattern of faith. This alone is a threat to our society from progressing into a state of rationalization and science."

How is religion dangerous again?im not following you. provide evidence or examples plz.

"We're too lenient on religion and we have this ideology that we shouldn't invade into what other people believe"

lenient? What gives you the right to control what people believe?you sound like one of those early European Catholics.
we shoudlnt force our beliefs down people's throat.Especially using the government.its called religous freedom.As long as the beliefs arnt breaking any laws, i dont see the problem.

"People are so scared these days to outwardly criticize against beliefs that is standing on the invisible pattern of faith. This alone is a threat to our society from progressing into a state of rationalization and science.""

how is it a threat? show evidence and examples. If u r talking about the USA, we r already a state of rationalization and science.How the hell does religion threaten to take that away? The USA has a secular government.I am not sure where you are going with this, plz elaborate and explain.What do u think should happen with religion?

" Again, this is a very polar view of what you have and I doubt you'll agree with me to drop your religion because, after all, humans are emotionally weak. As Galileo states, why use religion when "God" gave us brains with the power to think intellectually and critically."
I see no reason to drop my religion based on the past and your logic.My religion has done nothing but enhanced my life. my ancestors werent even European.And not all humans r emotionally weak. Thats a huge generalization. Im not emotionally weak anyway.Galileo was born in a time of vein ignorance and stupidity for the most part. What does religion have to do with thinking intellectually and critically?R u saying religous people cant think intellectually and critically? if u r then perhaps you need to start thinking intellectually and critically.Religion is used to teach morals.I dont see the conection with it being the downfall of mankind.

"I know a lot about religion, or Christianity for that matter."
no you dont, you have not yet said one thing from the Bible. One quote from Jesus.How the hell can you know about something when you completely ignore its origins.Comon now, i have athiest friends who can support an arguement similiar to yours actually using Biblicle passages.

"I've gotten myself deeply interested in what religion has done to our society. Countless bloodsheds, violence, discrimination all as the result of something as stupid a religion."
What society? bloodsheds? violence? discrimination? all blamed on the soul reason of religion? That sounds like human nature to me pal.Cruel, but true.If religion was truly to blame, we wouldnt have violence, bloodshed, and discrimination today.Secular and anti religous governements wouldnt have had violence,bloodshed, and discrimination.U consider yourself non-religous, but u obviously are prejudice toward religous people, i bet u discriminate to. Im sure you have caused violence, and maybe even bloodshed.Those 3 things, and many others r human nature.They will exists with us forever and ever.The Bible is agasint meaningless violence/bloodshed and discrimination.People will use the Bible to justify these things, but thats just a down right attempt to force a translation to justify thier behaviors.Those three things r so basic to human behavior, you cant openly blame religion for any of it.We have been doing that shit b4 science and religion came into play pal.Thats a real deep issue that goes way past science and religion to more fundamental views on the human race in general.

"This is what baffles me - people who follow religion think they're different. In truth, you're not. People think they're different because of the ability of hindsight into history and the progression of society with new laws and regulations. In reality, religion itself is the exact same."

What? that whole statement baffles me...different? as in surperior? or different as in not the same? wutever, its just another stupid generalization ne way

"It's still the same "BELIEVE IN JESUS AND YOU WILL BE WITH GOD!" bullcrap which pretty much brainwashes people away from progressive laws and decisions simply because they interfere with the fundamentalist beliefs. The world itself would be a better place if people resorted more to science, rationalization, and critical thinking rather than reading a very very old book and believing in a religion, which is pretty much a big giant bureaucracy."

Not everyone is brainwashed into believing in Chrsitianity. For some of us its a choice.We r all not the same.There r millions of denominations of Christians. Not all of us think the same way as u portray us. You r just being biased and generalizing a very large group of very diverse people.Not to mension you have yet to provide one scripture or evidence to support your biased claims.Do u realize how ignorant you sound?You r talking about shit you know nothing about.

Brainwash is one thing, brainwash from laws and decisions?wtf?What laws? what decisions?

The world would be a better place without ignorant and biased views.It would also be a better place if people would stop forcing thier beliefs down other people's throat and demeaning large groups of people with ignorant generalised views that dont fairly represent a very diverse group of people.You talk a lot about science,rationalization, and critical thinking yet you have not used ne of them.Religion has nothing to do with politics. It was never created as a political movement.And on a last note we must use all of our resources to make the world a better place. Science wont do it alone. Niether will Religion. We need religion, science,art,music,politics,philosophys,ect. This world is to complicated to rely on one simple scientific method...

"And don't label me with the Christians or any religion for that matter, it sickens me to the deepest crevice of my stomach. I have the modesty to acknowledge that there are things in the world that I never know and I strive to find these answers. It's annoying when intellectually inferior people come up to you claiming they know the "truth" when they can't prove jack shit without using logical fallacies."

Why does it sicken you? inferior?How can you tell if they r intellectually inferior?

"Going back to the topic, there's a precise reason why most religions have similar elements of "Good being" and "Evil being" where people who succumb to the devil-equivalent will be punished and the story of a prophet as a medium between God and the people. It's the human nature of the desire to control other people. There's a reason why this religion is dominant in largely stratified societies while societies that live without any real hierarchy have religions that focus on nature."

ok at leasts i now know u acknowlege human nature.Doesnt prove that all religions (especially Chrsitianity) have a purpose rooted in controlling people. It just simply means people should have some sort of moral compass.Even without religion, morals would still be around.Thats a fundamental truth that is based deeper then religion. If morals r so dam bad, why r u so morally agasint religion?
People will use religion however the hell they want to,you certainly do, but when u combine it with politics you get an ugly,currupted homogenious mixture.Chrsitianity wasnt founded for that purpose.It was meant to teach morals through Jesus Christs- nothing more and nothing less.btw, There r no directions about politics in the Bible.Jesus wasnt a politician.

"If you are the leader of a city that have levels - you need to inflict fear to the people to deter them from killing you in your sleep and taking over your city."

you dont have to...there is more then one way to rule a people.All that fear leads to is a revolution or renassance.

"If you are the leader of a tribe that respects nature and live with it - you need a religion that respects nature in the form of animism."

You dont "need" a religion at all. and ne religion can work in any enviroment. People come up with religion based on their understanding of the world.







"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance, and conscience stupidity"-Dr Martin Luther King
peace over war





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Posted 10/30/08

mikejacobs wrote:


JJT2 wrote:


mikejacobs wrote:

You know, I have to say, does anyone ever stop and think about the creator/divine being/god ==, we keep making him/her/thing into what we want, as if he's your property to manipulate. Really, the overall objective of religion is rather political, a means of controlling the masses, look at the reference of Jesus being a shepherd and the masses being sheep, feels as if he's the one who's leading us to the butcher. Admit it Christians, your religion is just one of the many religions and also one of the political control ideology.


you can interpret the Bible ne way you want- but my interpretation is Jesus being the goal and the masses must become that goal.
Early Europeans used religion as a political tool, but today its overall objective is to teach morallity.Some people tend to use it in currupted ways, but that was never its objective.I live in a secular country, so religion plays no part in government polocies.Besides, Jesus had 12 deciples, it was never his objective to control ne one.He ultimatly was killed because of the betrayal of one of his disiples.He never intended for Christianity to be used in ne other way he used it as.Jesus healed people, he didnt kill/brainwash/control people.As for those early Europeans...dont get me started....peace over war


I am pretty sure that I heard somewhere that said Jesus can see the future.....Hmmm.....


Well if its about Jesus and not from the Bible its either irrelevent or false.peace over war
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Posted 10/31/08 , edited 10/31/08

JJT2 wrote:
Christianity was made by a person...Jesus...he did not create it to control the mass...

That is if you're assuming Jesus existed in the first place.


JJT2
And i have said this b4, but those early Europeans combined Christianity with thier government. Governments are currpted. They have always been that way.

No; PEOPLE are corrupted. And guess who made both religion and government? You guessed it, People.


JJT2 There is no perfect government.Governments will always be currpted to some degree.When you combine priest with politicians, you get an ugly mix of lies and contridictions.Politicians are known for being two faced liars to begin with. They dont need a religion to do what they do best- lie. When you put a religion in thier hands, they just currupt like they do everything else.Same with democracy and communism- both are good forms of government- niether exists today.No governemt today has ever truly went by all of the rules placed by democracy and communism.People simply get in office and currupt both forms.Turning Communism into some dictatorship. And turning democracy into some form of rediculas child-like logic way of protecting people from them selves.I know im getting off topic, but if u throw Chrsitianity into that mess, it just gets messier. Seperation of church and state- its the only way to go.

Okay, so this is your stance. So tell me why there are so many interpretations of the exact same religion? It's still mind boggling to me that neither God nor Jesus would give us a clear outline of how to follow their words. The common excuse is "It's their test." It's not really a test to begin with if you're completely lost. It's like a math professor lecturing about Chemistry while giving an English Final.


JJT2
"Back then, before such advanced technology of monitoring and security, you had no defense against a mass number of people aside from a few soldiers at your disposal. What better way to control them with the promise of eternal damnation in fiery hell? This is a barrier which I don't see you'll ever go over since you will be required to give up your faith in your religion."

the "beforce such advanced technology of monitoring and security" sounds a little self concieted.You sound as if the advancement of science/ technology was the sole driving force in advancing every aspect of people's thoughts, religion,ect.

Self conceited? Not sure where you got that impression considering I never mentioned anything about me.

Considering how religion has evolved throughout the ages in consistency and relation with political/social/technological changes, I would say that technology has had a generous amount of impact on ideologies and religion. It would be stupid to argue otherwise.

Religion in medieval days were literally a guideline and step by step on how to not burn in hell. Now, it seems the old-fashioned religious practices are still being held in some parts of the world while the more multi-cultural and multi-religious nations tend to view religion as a way of life. Wouldn't you agree that Christianity itself has evolved tremendously over the ages?


JJT2
and yes, u had defense agasint a mass load of people- with a massive army.Countries back then tended to use armies a lot, you better believe they were massive.

That's precisely my point, ever hear of revolutions? When a dictator or a wealthy elite oppresses its people, no amount of army can protect that person since the army themselves are also likely to go against the social elite. Like I have said previously, religion was a tool to deter these kind of thoughts. Social elites presented themselves as they had superior divine connections to God compared to general populace. Considering how literacy level were low, people didn't read through the Bible as much as people do today; the Bible was interpreted and told to people. This is pretty much a monopolization of the knowledge of literacy which the elites used for themselves.



JJT2
"What better way to control them with the promise of eternal damnation in fiery hell? This is a barrier which I don't see you'll ever go over since you will be required to give up your faith in your religion.""

for the first question, some dictatorships killed many people by using no religion at all, they just controled with the governemt alone, using the same scare tactics, perhaps that way was more proficient?.Seems to me this proves the problem is simply more fundamental than a religion...more like government...or better yet, lets get to the root-people...currupted people.
As for the 2nd quesion, i realise that some people used/ use Chrsitianity as a tool of war/government to control people.That doesnt prove that thats what Chrisitanity should/meant (to) be used for.Religion can be used for a lot of things actually.
So i dont understand what the barrier is/represents and i am not required to do ne thing in ne body's name. I make my own choices-its called free will.and do u even know or understand what my faith is?Do u even understand the religion its self through the eyes of everyone who practices it?, through my eyes?? :sweatingbullets:understand the past through the eyes and minds of the people that lived there.


Yes, I never denied the fact that dictatorships killed people without religion; but the truth is, there have been a very large number of people who died under the name of religion. With the advancements in weaponry and individual power, yes, people tended to use more physical aggression rather than mental aggression - after all, with literacy level going up and weapon technology going up, it's the only logical solution.

And yes, I understand how religion works. In fact, I have been a Christian for several years but I've lost complete faith in a God that does not know how to do his job. I have statistics and numbers to prove mine, what do you have to prove yours? Faith? Please spare yourself the trouble and spare me the agony of reading them.


JJT2
1st question-i dont know about all religions, because they each had different purposes.But as for Christianity- it had but one-morality.

All religion had guidelines to morality.

JJT2
2nd-I never once said humanity would be lost without religion.My faith in humanity has nothing to do with this topic.There are many ways to achieve enlightenment and morality- religion is just one way- what works for me may not work for you.

Religion itself is a very flawed cultural idea because it has no means of proving itself and it's surviving on the dangerous basis of faith rather than logic. For this reason, I'm not just labeling Christianity on this - I'm labeling ALL religion.


JJT2
you basic logic isnt the same logic people had back in those times. Check out the philosophers of that time to get an understanding of thier logic, not your own.

Of course the logic isn't the same as it was back then. In fact, I don't blame people in the early days for believing in a God. There really wasn't anything else to resort to other than blind faith. I have read works of philosophers such as Descartes (who believed in an existence of a higher being), but it simply cannot stand the trials of modern discovery and technology which does so well to prove against religion. Ever hear of Carbon-dating?

My point is that religion in this stage of the world is completely ridiculous and stupid. The theory of evolution has a greater basis and evidence than "God created the world in 6 days, rested on the 7th." This is exactly what effects me - refusing to believe in things that have evidence and believing in things which have no evidence.


JJT2
It sounds to me your interpretation makes it sound like some government created tool used to control people.To bad you cant use Biblicle scriptures to back that up and yes, you bet i can provide a scripture for each and every sentence i just stated, but im not here to preach.

1. Government and previous civilizations had religion has a core function of their society. A lot of people died for that reason.
2. Biblical scriptures itself is in question, therefore using that as evidence is like trying to prove A with A. Circular logic.


JJT2
LMAO, do u even realise the irony of that statement?
Lets break this down




JJT2
"Christians, or any religion in general, has a way of trying to convert people when there is no concrete evidence that can be used to prove the existence of a God."
Religions dont even need a God, and your point?

Yet the largest religions in the world have a God that cannot be proven.


JJT2
How is religion dangerous again?im not following you. provide evidence or examples plz.

I'm pretty sure I emphasized the point: Religion has no actual evidence or credible source of proving itself other than on faith. That itself makes it pretty much a clay mold which can be shaped by anyone. There's a reason why people interpret the Bible so differently - it's too flimsy. Laws of science? They're pretty much absolute. Gravity is absolute. When sodium reacts with Oxygen or water, it'll combust; that's absolute. Carbon-dating, that's absolute. Do you see my point yet? There's too many people who believe in religion considering it to be the "truth" when there is really absolutely no truth in itself.


JJT2
lenient? What gives you the right to control what people believe?you sound like one of those early European Catholics.

Only difference between the Catholics and me is that I can provide credible statistics and science to support my claims.

JJT2
we shoudlnt force our beliefs down people's throat.Especially using the government.its called religous freedom.As long as the beliefs arnt breaking any laws, i dont see the problem.

Then you're still naive.


JJT2
how is it a threat? show evidence and examples. If u r talking about the USA, we r already a state of rationalization and science.How the hell does religion threaten to take that away? The USA has a secular government.I am not sure where you are going with this, plz elaborate and explain.What do u think should happen with religion?

We are in a state of rationalization and science? More people believe that the world was created in 7 days and Adam+Eve were the first humans is the truth even though there's so much evidence against this idea through fossils, carbon-dating, and geographic evidence.

How in the world is THAT RATIONAL?


JJT2
I see no reason to drop my religion based on the past and your logic.My religion has done nothing but enhanced my life. my ancestors werent even European.And not all humans r emotionally weak. Thats a huge generalization. Im not emotionally weak anyway.Galileo was born in a time of vein ignorance and stupidity for the most part. What does religion have to do with thinking intellectually and critically?R u saying religous people cant think intellectually and critically? if u r then perhaps you need to start thinking intellectually and critically.Religion is used to teach morals.I dont see the conection with it being the downfall of mankind.


You keep skipping over the important part of my argument: RELIGION ITSELF IS FLIMSY AND THE FACT THAT PEOPLE CONSIDER RELIGION IS THE TRUTH OVER SCIENCE IN ITSELF IS SO DAMN IGNORANT AND STUPID. IGNORANCE AND STUPIDITY LEADS HUMANITY TO MISTAKES IN DECISIONS AND ACTIONS - HISTORY IS FULL OF THEM.

Should I make it simpler?


JJT2
no you dont, you have not yet said one thing from the Bible. One quote from Jesus.How the hell can you know about something when you completely ignore its origins.

Why in the world would I quote things from the Bible when the Bible itself isn't a credible source of evidence? That's like me writing a book while I'm completely drunk and high and then writing a research citing creating a thesis based off of the book and turning it into my class.


JJT2
Comon now, i have athiest friends who can support an arguement similiar to yours actually using Biblicle passages.

Refer to my previous claim.


JJT2
What society? bloodsheds? violence? discrimination? all blamed on the soul reason of religion? That sounds like human nature to me pal.

Yeah exactly, get rid of Religion and at least people will fight over things that's WORTH fighting for, such as the end of world-wide poverty.


JJT2
i bet u discriminate to. Im sure you have caused violence, and maybe even bloodshed.

Damn right I discriminate people who believe in imaginary spirits, but not bloodshed.


JJT2
Those 3 things, and many others r human nature.They will exists with us forever and ever.The Bible is agasint meaningless violence/bloodshed and discrimination.

I'm pretty sure that the Old Testament is full of passages where God smites countless people for disobeying him. Of course, that's fine because he's God and the people all deserved to be punished. Am I right? It's hard to say one thing while you have a Big Daddy who does the opposite. Monkey see, monkey do.


JJT2
People will use the Bible to justify these things, but thats just a down right attempt to force a translation to justify thier behaviors.Those three things r so basic to human behavior, you cant openly blame religion for any of it.We have been doing that shit b4 science and religion came into play pal.Thats a real deep issue that goes way past science and religion to more fundamental views on the human race in general.

People kill in the name of religion because they believe they have a superior "truth" compared to other people. That's pretty much it.

Take out the "kill" and replace the it with "convert other people", and you still have arrogant pricks.



JJT2
What? that whole statement baffles me...different? as in surperior? or different as in not the same? wutever, its just another stupid generalization ne way

It's not stupid generalization. There hasn't been one religious person who've I met who didn't think that their idea was the "truth" even though they can't prove it in logical terms other than faith.


JJT2
Not everyone is brainwashed into believing in Chrsitianity. For some of us its a choice.We r all not the same.There r millions of denominations of Christians. Not all of us think the same way as u portray us. You r just being biased and generalizing a very large group of very diverse people.Not to mension you have yet to provide one scripture or evidence to support your biased claims.Do u realize how ignorant you sound?You r talking about shit you know nothing about.

Believing in any religion in itself is either a matter of ignorance/stupidity or manipulation. I am not being biased in the fact that you all follow a faith that cannot be proven.

What are you talking about "Not having evidence"?
1. Carbon Dating
2. Theory of Evolution (Which has considerable evidence)
3. Laws of science.
4. Fossils.
5. Historical evidence of oppression + violence in the name of religion. Example: Salem Witch Trials.

What do you have?
1. The Bible
2. Faith



JJT2
This world is to complicated to rely on one simple scientific method...

Uhhh no it's not. People die, people decompose, life goes on. There are chemical reactions and laws of physics which rule the world and we discover more as years go by.



JJT2
Why does it sicken you? inferior?How can you tell if they r intellectually inferior?

Refer to my previous posts.


JJT2
you dont have to...there is more then one way to rule a people.All that fear leads to is a revolution or renassance.

There's two ways to effectively rule back in the days of chaos:
1. Physical Violent Oppression
2. Emotional Oppression

BTW, the Renaissance was a time when religion was at it's lowest peak in those days. You would be doing a grave mistake by linking religion to that time period.



JJT2
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance, and conscience stupidity"-Dr Martin Luther King
peace over war

Yep, totally agree with you. Science is smart, religion is ignorance.

Before I leave, I have a question for you that I've been wondering for a very long time.

If God is loving and a benevolent being, where are there children born in Third world countries into starvation and agony? Why does God let them die such a painful death at a young age? If I have my Bible correct, since those Children do not know about Jesus or God, they're pretty much damned to Hell. Tell me why God plays a sick joke on the Children by putting them into life in such pain and then damning to eternal fire. Tell me.






BTW, if you happen to reply to this, please use proper grammar and English. Instead of using "u", use "you". Instead of using "NE", use "any". I'm not going to reply to any of your posts from now on if you don't bother using proper English - it makes it harder for me to read your posts and it pisses me off.
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Posted 10/31/08

JJT2 wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


JJT2 wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

'NO real evidence for Jesus! None at all. 0 is the number of evidence for a Jesus person from the bible.' NO one at his time even spoke of a Jesus! Such a person yet at the time no one talked about him. Sounds fishy to me.'


there is evidence for Jesus, and besides, if he didnt start Christianity who did? What country r u from? Who ever started Christianity is "Jesus"...Jesus represents the firsts person to start the religion..which was deprived from Jewdisms...peace over war


Would you like to show some Evidence for this person? You know using some "real evidence".


you look up the evidence, its irrelavent ne way. The Bible is real, its visible- you can see it, and it has pages and words.Its as real as u can get.What the Bible teaches is also real.and thats the main point. peace over war
'And what evidence do you have that the bible is not just stories thrown together from other religions and stories that are all made up? Still you given no evidence for your Jesus. PS.. If your the truth than you should have the evidence to back it up. But you have 0 backing to anything you have said.
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Posted 10/31/08

makix wrote:


JJT2 wrote:
Christianity was made by a person...Jesus...he did not create it to control the mass...

That is if you're assuming Jesus existed in the first place.


JJT2
And i have said this b4, but those early Europeans combined Christianity with thier government. Governments are currpted. They have always been that way.

No; PEOPLE are corrupted. And guess who made both religion and government? You guessed it, People.


JJT2 There is no perfect government.Governments will always be currpted to some degree.When you combine priest with politicians, you get an ugly mix of lies and contridictions.Politicians are known for being two faced liars to begin with. They dont need a religion to do what they do best- lie. When you put a religion in thier hands, they just currupt like they do everything else.Same with democracy and communism- both are good forms of government- niether exists today.No governemt today has ever truly went by all of the rules placed by democracy and communism.People simply get in office and currupt both forms.Turning Communism into some dictatorship. And turning democracy into some form of rediculas child-like logic way of protecting people from them selves.I know im getting off topic, but if u throw Chrsitianity into that mess, it just gets messier. Seperation of church and state- its the only way to go.

Okay, so this is your stance. So tell me why there are so many interpretations of the exact same religion? It's still mind boggling to me that neither God nor Jesus would give us a clear outline of how to follow their words. The common excuse is "It's their test." It's not really a test to begin with if you're completely lost. It's like a math professor lecturing about Chemistry while giving an English Final.


JJT2
"Back then, before such advanced technology of monitoring and security, you had no defense against a mass number of people aside from a few soldiers at your disposal. What better way to control them with the promise of eternal damnation in fiery hell? This is a barrier which I don't see you'll ever go over since you will be required to give up your faith in your religion."

the "beforce such advanced technology of monitoring and security" sounds a little self concieted.You sound as if the advancement of science/ technology was the sole driving force in advancing every aspect of people's thoughts, religion,ect.

Self conceited? Not sure where you got that impression considering I never mentioned anything about me.

Considering how religion has evolved throughout the ages in consistency and relation with political/social/technological changes, I would say that technology has had a generous amount of impact on ideologies and religion. It would be stupid to argue otherwise.

Religion in medieval days were literally a guideline and step by step on how to not burn in hell. Now, it seems the old-fashioned religious practices are still being held in some parts of the world while the more multi-cultural and multi-religious nations tend to view religion as a way of life. Wouldn't you agree that Christianity itself has evolved tremendously over the ages?


JJT2
and yes, u had defense agasint a mass load of people- with a massive army.Countries back then tended to use armies a lot, you better believe they were massive.

That's precisely my point, ever hear of revolutions? When a dictator or a wealthy elite oppresses its people, no amount of army can protect that person since the army themselves are also likely to go against the social elite. Like I have said previously, religion was a tool to deter these kind of thoughts. Social elites presented themselves as they had superior divine connections to God compared to general populace. Considering how literacy level were low, people didn't read through the Bible as much as people do today; the Bible was interpreted and told to people. This is pretty much a monopolization of the knowledge of literacy which the elites used for themselves.



JJT2
"What better way to control them with the promise of eternal damnation in fiery hell? This is a barrier which I don't see you'll ever go over since you will be required to give up your faith in your religion.""

for the first question, some dictatorships killed many people by using no religion at all, they just controled with the governemt alone, using the same scare tactics, perhaps that way was more proficient?.Seems to me this proves the problem is simply more fundamental than a religion...more like government...or better yet, lets get to the root-people...currupted people.
As for the 2nd quesion, i realise that some people used/ use Chrsitianity as a tool of war/government to control people.That doesnt prove that thats what Chrisitanity should/meant (to) be used for.Religion can be used for a lot of things actually.
So i dont understand what the barrier is/represents and i am not required to do ne thing in ne body's name. I make my own choices-its called free will.and do u even know or understand what my faith is?Do u even understand the religion its self through the eyes of everyone who practices it?, through my eyes?? :sweatingbullets:understand the past through the eyes and minds of the people that lived there.


Yes, I never denied the fact that dictatorships killed people without religion; but the truth is, there have been a very large number of people who died under the name of religion. With the advancements in weaponry and individual power, yes, people tended to use more physical aggression rather than mental aggression - after all, with literacy level going up and weapon technology going up, it's the only logical solution.

And yes, I understand how religion works. In fact, I have been a Christian for several years but I've lost complete faith in a God that does not know how to do his job. I have statistics and numbers to prove mine, what do you have to prove yours? Faith? Please spare yourself the trouble and spare me the agony of reading them.


JJT2
1st question-i dont know about all religions, because they each had different purposes.But as for Christianity- it had but one-morality.

All religion had guidelines to morality.

JJT2
2nd-I never once said humanity would be lost without religion.My faith in humanity has nothing to do with this topic.There are many ways to achieve enlightenment and morality- religion is just one way- what works for me may not work for you.

Religion itself is a very flawed cultural idea because it has no means of proving itself and it's surviving on the dangerous basis of faith rather than logic. For this reason, I'm not just labeling Christianity on this - I'm labeling ALL religion.


JJT2
you basic logic isnt the same logic people had back in those times. Check out the philosophers of that time to get an understanding of thier logic, not your own.

Of course the logic isn't the same as it was back then. In fact, I don't blame people in the early days for believing in a God. There really wasn't anything else to resort to other than blind faith. I have read works of philosophers such as Descartes (who believed in an existence of a higher being), but it simply cannot stand the trials of modern discovery and technology which does so well to prove against religion. Ever hear of Carbon-dating?

My point is that religion in this stage of the world is completely ridiculous and stupid. The theory of evolution has a greater basis and evidence than "God created the world in 6 days, rested on the 7th." This is exactly what effects me - refusing to believe in things that have evidence and believing in things which have no evidence.


JJT2
It sounds to me your interpretation makes it sound like some government created tool used to control people.To bad you cant use Biblicle scriptures to back that up and yes, you bet i can provide a scripture for each and every sentence i just stated, but im not here to preach.

1. Government and previous civilizations had religion has a core function of their society. A lot of people died for that reason.
2. Biblical scriptures itself is in question, therefore using that as evidence is like trying to prove A with A. Circular logic.


JJT2
LMAO, do u even realise the irony of that statement?
Lets break this down




JJT2
"Christians, or any religion in general, has a way of trying to convert people when there is no concrete evidence that can be used to prove the existence of a God."
Religions dont even need a God, and your point?

Yet the largest religions in the world have a God that cannot be proven.


JJT2
How is religion dangerous again?im not following you. provide evidence or examples plz.

I'm pretty sure I emphasized the point: Religion has no actual evidence or credible source of proving itself other than on faith. That itself makes it pretty much a clay mold which can be shaped by anyone. There's a reason why people interpret the Bible so differently - it's too flimsy. Laws of science? They're pretty much absolute. Gravity is absolute. When sodium reacts with Oxygen or water, it'll combust; that's absolute. Carbon-dating, that's absolute. Do you see my point yet? There's too many people who believe in religion considering it to be the "truth" when there is really absolutely no truth in itself.


JJT2
lenient? What gives you the right to control what people believe?you sound like one of those early European Catholics.

Only difference between the Catholics and me is that I can provide credible statistics and science to support my claims.

JJT2
we shoudlnt force our beliefs down people's throat.Especially using the government.its called religous freedom.As long as the beliefs arnt breaking any laws, i dont see the problem.

Then you're still naive.


JJT2
how is it a threat? show evidence and examples. If u r talking about the USA, we r already a state of rationalization and science.How the hell does religion threaten to take that away? The USA has a secular government.I am not sure where you are going with this, plz elaborate and explain.What do u think should happen with religion?

We are in a state of rationalization and science? More people believe that the world was created in 7 days and Adam+Eve were the first humans is the truth even though there's so much evidence against this idea through fossils, carbon-dating, and geographic evidence.

How in the world is THAT RATIONAL?


JJT2
I see no reason to drop my religion based on the past and your logic.My religion has done nothing but enhanced my life. my ancestors werent even European.And not all humans r emotionally weak. Thats a huge generalization. Im not emotionally weak anyway.Galileo was born in a time of vein ignorance and stupidity for the most part. What does religion have to do with thinking intellectually and critically?R u saying religous people cant think intellectually and critically? if u r then perhaps you need to start thinking intellectually and critically.Religion is used to teach morals.I dont see the conection with it being the downfall of mankind.


You keep skipping over the important part of my argument: RELIGION ITSELF IS FLIMSY AND THE FACT THAT PEOPLE CONSIDER RELIGION IS THE TRUTH OVER SCIENCE IN ITSELF IS SO DAMN IGNORANT AND STUPID. IGNORANCE AND STUPIDITY LEADS HUMANITY TO MISTAKES IN DECISIONS AND ACTIONS - HISTORY IS FULL OF THEM.

Should I make it simpler?


JJT2
no you dont, you have not yet said one thing from the Bible. One quote from Jesus.How the hell can you know about something when you completely ignore its origins.

Why in the world would I quote things from the Bible when the Bible itself isn't a credible source of evidence? That's like me writing a book while I'm completely drunk and high and then writing a research citing creating a thesis based off of the book and turning it into my class.


JJT2
Comon now, i have athiest friends who can support an arguement similiar to yours actually using Biblicle passages.

Refer to my previous claim.


JJT2
What society? bloodsheds? violence? discrimination? all blamed on the soul reason of religion? That sounds like human nature to me pal.

Yeah exactly, get rid of Religion and at least people will fight over things that's WORTH fighting for, such as the end of world-wide poverty.


JJT2
i bet u discriminate to. Im sure you have caused violence, and maybe even bloodshed.

Damn right I discriminate people who believe in imaginary spirits, but not bloodshed.


JJT2
Those 3 things, and many others r human nature.They will exists with us forever and ever.The Bible is agasint meaningless violence/bloodshed and discrimination.

I'm pretty sure that the Old Testament is full of passages where God smites countless people for disobeying him. Of course, that's fine because he's God and the people all deserved to be punished. Am I right? It's hard to say one thing while you have a Big Daddy who does the opposite. Monkey see, monkey do.


JJT2
People will use the Bible to justify these things, but thats just a down right attempt to force a translation to justify thier behaviors.Those three things r so basic to human behavior, you cant openly blame religion for any of it.We have been doing that shit b4 science and religion came into play pal.Thats a real deep issue that goes way past science and religion to more fundamental views on the human race in general.

People kill in the name of religion because they believe they have a superior "truth" compared to other people. That's pretty much it.

Take out the "kill" and replace the it with "convert other people", and you still have arrogant pricks.



JJT2
What? that whole statement baffles me...different? as in surperior? or different as in not the same? wutever, its just another stupid generalization ne way

It's not stupid generalization. There hasn't been one religious person who've I met who didn't think that their idea was the "truth" even though they can't prove it in logical terms other than faith.


JJT2
Not everyone is brainwashed into believing in Chrsitianity. For some of us its a choice.We r all not the same.There r millions of denominations of Christians. Not all of us think the same way as u portray us. You r just being biased and generalizing a very large group of very diverse people.Not to mension you have yet to provide one scripture or evidence to support your biased claims.Do u realize how ignorant you sound?You r talking about shit you know nothing about.

Believing in any religion in itself is either a matter of ignorance/stupidity or manipulation. I am not being biased in the fact that you all follow a faith that cannot be proven.

What are you talking about "Not having evidence"?
1. Carbon Dating
2. Theory of Evolution (Which has considerable evidence)
3. Laws of science.
4. Fossils.
5. Historical evidence of oppression + violence in the name of religion. Example: Salem Witch Trials.

What do you have?
1. The Bible
2. Faith



JJT2
This world is to complicated to rely on one simple scientific method...

Uhhh no it's not. People die, people decompose, life goes on. There are chemical reactions and laws of physics which rule the world and we discover more as years go by.



JJT2
Why does it sicken you? inferior?How can you tell if they r intellectually inferior?

Refer to my previous posts.


JJT2
you dont have to...there is more then one way to rule a people.All that fear leads to is a revolution or renassance.

There's two ways to effectively rule back in the days of chaos:
1. Physical Violent Oppression
2. Emotional Oppression

BTW, the Renaissance was a time when religion was at it's lowest peak in those days. You would be doing a grave mistake by linking religion to that time period.



JJT2
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance, and conscience stupidity"-Dr Martin Luther King
peace over war

Yep, totally agree with you. Science is smart, religion is ignorance.

Before I leave, I have a question for you that I've been wondering for a very long time.

If God is loving and a benevolent being, where are there children born in Third world countries into starvation and agony? Why does God let them die such a painful death at a young age? If I have my Bible correct, since those Children do not know about Jesus or God, they're pretty much damned to Hell. Tell me why God plays a sick joke on the Children by putting them into life in such pain and then damning to eternal fire. Tell me.






BTW, if you happen to reply to this, please use proper grammar and English. Instead of using "u", use "you". Instead of using "NE", use "any". I'm not going to reply to any of your posts from now on if you don't bother using proper English - it makes it harder for me to read your posts and it pisses me off.



"That is if you're assuming Jesus existed in the first place."
Who started Chrstianity then? please enlighten me

"No; PEOPLE are corrupted. And guess who made both religion and government? You guessed it, People."
you are only restating what i have already said.


"Okay, so this is your stance. So tell me why there are so many interpretations of the exact same religion? It's still mind boggling to me that neither God nor Jesus would give us a clear outline of how to follow their words. The common excuse is "It's their test." It's not really a test to begin with if you're completely lost. It's like a math professor lecturing about Chemistry while giving an English Final."

the bible has been translated into so many languages, some people have twisted and molded the words to mean what they want it to mean, and it can be interpretated in many ways. Just because you cant understand the Bible (maybe because u dont read it?) doesnt mean Christians cant.

Religion in medieval days were literally a guideline and step by step on how to not burn in hell. Now, it seems the old-fashioned religious practices are still being held in some parts of the world while the more multi-cultural and multi-religious nations tend to view religion as a way of life. Wouldn't you agree that Christianity itself has evolved tremendously over the ages?

its more like people simply have a different understanding of Christianity.The religion stays the same, its the people that follow it that change.


"That's precisely my point, ever hear of revolutions? When a dictator or a wealthy elite oppresses its people, no amount of army can protect that person since the army themselves are also likely to go against the social elite. Like I have said previously, religion was a tool to deter these kind of thoughts. Social elites presented themselves as they had superior divine connections to God compared to general populace. Considering how literacy level were low, people didn't read through the Bible as much as people do today; the Bible was interpreted and told to people. This is pretty much a monopolization of the knowledge of literacy which the elites used for themselves."

? your points and opinions of religion seem to change back and forth.I still dont see where you are coming from clearly...Religion was used as a tool. Religion was never meant to be used as a political tool, just a guide to life. There is not one political statement in the Bible.


"And yes, I understand how religion works. In fact, I have been a Christian for several years but I've lost complete faith in a God that does not know how to do his job. I have statistics and numbers to prove mine, what do you have to prove yours? Faith? Please spare yourself the trouble and spare me the agony of reading them."

Whats is God's job? even i dont know that one... statistics and numbers? wtf? you have lost me What does statistics and numbers have to do with the Bible and religion?Please explain this to me
Do you know what im trying to prove? Let me help you out- im trying to prove that not all Christians are illogical and not all of them cant think critically.Im basically trying to show you that you cant generalize all of Chrsitians as a bunch of hethen barbarians.We are people just like you.What makes you so serperior and better then every person with a religion?please enlighten me.

"Religion itself is a very flawed cultural idea because it has no means of proving itself and it's surviving on the dangerous basis of faith rather than logic. For this reason, I'm not just labeling Christianity on this - I'm labeling ALL religion."

Once again, it depends on perspective, your logic is different then mine.What makes faith dangerous?And what isnt a flawed cultural idea's?

Science is "knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world." -(www.sciencemadesimple.com).

notice how it says "physical world"- i will be useing this term again

"but it simply cannot stand the trials of modern discovery and technology which does so well to prove against religion. Ever hear of Carbon-dating?"
Religion is about morality. How do u disprove morality? so what if u claim to disprove events in the Bible. that doesnt destroy the entire concept of the religion.The lessons it teaches has nothing to do with carbon-dating.Disproving events in the Bible doesnt take away from its message.

"My point is that religion in this stage of the world is completely ridiculous and stupid. The theory of evolution has a greater basis and evidence than "God created the world in 6 days, rested on the 7th." This is exactly what effects me - refusing to believe in things that have evidence and believing in things which have no evidence."

What makes it ridiculous and stupid? Religion doesnt have to explain the physical world. It focuses on the morailty.Theorys r theorys. not even all scientist accept those theories.

God could have created the world in 6 days, and rested on the 7th...who said the days were days of 24 hours? maybe the days were millions of years. Who knows what God thinks? and you should know the american calander is flawed any way- or else it wouldnt need daylight savings time and leap years.Keep in the Bible's original language was not English.The Bible can be interpreted in many ways.


"1. Government and previous civilizations had religion has a core function of their society. A lot of people died for that reason.
2. Biblical scriptures itself is in question, therefore using that as evidence is like trying to prove A with A. Circular logic."

1. People died for many reasons back then.I have already said religion and politics dont mix.But there r some governments today with religion as the core and they turn out just fine.

2. It doesnt matter if everything the Bible says is a flat out lie.What is real is the bible itself. The scriptures are real pages with real words on them.That is evidence of the existence of the book called the Bible.What is also proven and real is the fact that most Chrisitians base thier beliefs off of the Bible.If you are going to prove/disprove/ undertsand anything about the Chrsitian religion, you must start with the source- the Bible. That is the only way to go about it.What do numbers/science/anything else have to do with the Bible? The Bible doesnt teach science, it doesnt teach math, It teaches morality.If you just deny the existence of the Bible, how can you understand Chrstianity?You understand Christianity through the Bible.Reguardless of weather or not its true or false.Without logical evidence from the Bible, how can you expect to disprove the entire religion?You may be able to disprove a few things here and there, but what about the non-physical world? Human ethics? Science doesnt deal with that. Science is about the physical world. They just ignore any other worlds because they cant be proven/disproven with the scientific method. Science takes a nuetral stand on the non-physical world.If it cant be tested with the scientific method, it isnt sceince.Science is not meant to proven/disprove other relms, it cant do that with the scientific method.


"Yet the largest religions in the world have a God that cannot be proven."
God cant be disproven either, its outside the relm of science.It has nothing to do with science. Doesnt mean its stupid. Arts have nothing to do with science either- does that make it stupid?


"I'm pretty sure I emphasized the point: Religion has no actual evidence or credible source of proving itself other than on faith. That itself makes it pretty much a clay mold which can be shaped by anyone. There's a reason why people interpret the Bible so differently - it's too flimsy. Laws of science? They're pretty much absolute. Gravity is absolute. When sodium reacts with Oxygen or water, it'll combust; that's absolute. Carbon-dating, that's absolute. Do you see my point yet? There's too many people who believe in religion considering it to be the "truth" when there is really absolutely no truth in itself."

Religion isnt a science, it doesnt need evidence of the physical world, most of it doesnt have a dam thing to do with the physical world.Its "flimsy" because of all the translations and curruptions.It wasnt always like that.Religion has nothing to do with science.
What about morality aspects of religion? ethical? these things have nothing to do with the laws of science.And who said religion was the only truth? I believe in science as well as religion.I do not deny gravity, sodium,carbon-dating.And once again, religion lies outside of the Laws of science. You cant prove/disprove God, thats not a scientists job.They r here to understand and explain the physical world.God, heaven, hell, ect. doesnt have ne thing to do with the physical world.Lots of those religious people also believe in science, they can coexists.

"Only difference between the Catholics and me is that I can provide credible statistics and science to support my claims."
statistics on what? science can support your prejudice claims about all Christians being illogical/stupid?Please do so then.Provide your statistics and science. Cause you have yet to do so- an argument is only as good as the evidence you have to back it up.

(we shoudlnt force our beliefs down people's throat.Especially using the government.its called religous freedom.As long as the beliefs arnt breaking any laws, i dont see the problem.)
"Then you're still naive."

So we should force your beliefs down peoples throat using the government, take away religious freedom,and force everyone to think exactly like you?

correct me if im wrong- but you r talking like an extremists. All you r trying to do is turn science into a religion and force everyone to follow that religion because it is the only right way to do anything.Every religious person should be wiped off the face pf the planet.Without religion there would be no wars and problems within society.You want to turn science into a way of life and government policy that everyone will follow.? am i right?

am i right? That is not what science is about, Science is "knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world." "-(http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/science-definition.html)

"We are in a state of rationalization and science? More people believe that the world was created in 7 days and Adam+Eve were the first humans is the truth even though there's so much evidence against this idea through fossils, carbon-dating, and geographic evidence.

How in the world is THAT RATIONAL?"

who were the first humans then? i said 7 days didnt have to be days of 24 hours.Humans had to have started from somewhere.
Not everybody knows about your so called evidence. They may be false beliefs to you, but what makes it irrational?There is a difference between wrong and irrational.

"You keep skipping over the important part of my argument: RELIGION ITSELF IS FLIMSY AND THE FACT THAT PEOPLE CONSIDER RELIGION IS THE TRUTH OVER SCIENCE IN ITSELF IS SO DAMN IGNORANT AND STUPID. IGNORANCE AND STUPIDITY LEADS HUMANITY TO MISTAKES IN DECISIONS AND ACTIONS - HISTORY IS FULL OF THEM. "

Not all Christians believe Chrstianity is the truth over science. Chrstianity and Science deals with two different truths. Chrstianity is the truth of morals and the non-physical world. Science is "knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world." "-(http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/science-definition.html).

Science plays no part in the non-physical world. Its not concerned with it. Religion plays no part in science- not concerned with it.
Ignorance and stupidity is dangerous.Chrsitianity doesnt have to lead to mistakes in decisions and actions. Not everyone is an extremists like you.
History may be full of it, but what about today?

"Why in the world would I quote things from the Bible when the Bible itself isn't a credible source of evidence? That's like me writing a book while I'm completely drunk and high and then writing a research citing creating a thesis based off of the book and turning it into my class."

Because you cant prove what Chrstians believe and what Chrstianity is about other-wise.Science books dont have a thing about religion in them.I have discussed earlier how evidence in the Bible isnt relative to the Christian beliefs.Science has nothing to do with the non-phsical world.

(What society? bloodsheds? violence? discrimination? all blamed on the soul reason of religion? That sounds like human nature to me pal.)

"Yeah exactly, get rid of Religion and at least people will fight over things that's WORTH fighting for, such as the end of world-wide poverty."

with this you have proven you discriminate and are prejudice against religious people. that is the basis for racism, sexism, ageism, and ne other type of "isms" i havnt said.
That is an illogical belief you cannot provide evidence for. All your are is basing your ignorant bigotry views on some twisted immoral version of what science is not.

Bloodshed happens without religion. Violence happens without religion, discrimination happens without religion.I dont need to show you examples, hopefully you can figure it out.Religion is not the soul driving cause for any of this.

People are already working on the end of world poverty.Plenty of Christian organizations and others give donations to try to end it. Thats in the Bible-feed the hungry.And whats worth fighting to you, is not the same for other people. I think ignorance and stupidity like yours is something worth combating.Peace is also worth fighting for.The US doesnt fight wars over religion.And all fights, today and in the past, werent all about religious ideals.And even without religion, nothing will change. Ignorance,hatred, and stupidy will remain dominate without education and love.

You views are mainly based on prejudice, discrimination, and racism based ideology, and hatred.Your eyes are to clouded with hate to understand what religion/Christianity and science is about.Science and rleigion is simply a way to understand the world around you. To force either down the throats of people under the belief of (its the ultimate truth,obey or die, or everyone else are a bunch of idiots that need to die) is being an extremists.Your beliefs are that of an extremists athiets than that of a scientist.You are no different than a religous fanatic- just without the religous part. The Bible has words that are against extremists in any form or fasion, i can now see why.Science is not a belief but a system of obtaining knowlege of the physical world..That knowlege is not to be used as a justfication for your hatred and bigatry views.Science and religion deal with two different relms. They may cross over now and then, but thier main purpose stays the same.There is nothing wrong with believing in a religion or God for that matter.Science has nothing to do with morality. Do not treat science as a way of life or a religion. That is not what it is.IT certainly isnt a governmemt policy.

"Damn right I discriminate people who believe in imaginary spirits, but not bloodshed. "
only providing more proof for my previous statement.Science doesnt say a dam thing about discrimination as being ok. Niether does the Bible.I bet you base your discrimination off of prejudice views of religous people as well.Racism in the form of religion instead of race...

"I'm pretty sure that the Old Testament is full of passages where God smites countless people for disobeying him. Of course, that's fine because he's God and the people all deserved to be punished. Am I right? It's hard to say one thing while you have a Big Daddy who does the opposite. Monkey see, monkey do."

What God does has nothing to do with us.He is not limited to our human definitions of good and wrong.There are 10 times as many passages that are actually direct commands from God that support non violence, no judgement, love,compassion,confident,forgiving,generous,kindness,merciful,ect. i could go on all day.Not everything in the Bible is meant to be taken as a direct command.

Thessalonians 5:12-13 -respectful philippians 4;7-peace just to give a few.

Humans are not meant to play the role of God.And you are wrong about God. Jesus came to fulfil the old testament.Not to mension the peace of God "passeth all understanding" Philippians 4:7

"People kill in the name of religion because they believe they have a superior "truth" compared to other people. That's pretty much it.

Take out the "kill" and replace the it with "convert other people", and you still have arrogant pricks."

Thats not the only reason why people kill. Athiest kill people to.And not all Christians are arrogant pricks. The bible is agaisnt arrogance.And not all Chrsitians forcefully convert people. Even within the church. Some of us let people have a choice. In my church ne way. And you have no room to talk about being an arrogant prick...


"Believing in any religion in itself is either a matter of ignorance/stupidity or manipulation. I am not being biased in the fact that you all follow a faith that cannot be proven.

What are you talking about "Not having evidence"?
1. Carbon Dating
2. Theory of Evolution (Which has considerable evidence)
3. Laws of science.
4. Fossils.
5. Historical evidence of oppression + violence in the name of religion. Example: Salem Witch Trials.

What do you have?
1. The Bible
2. Faith "

There we go again with the "science proves all religious people are stupid and ignorant or are manipulated". What about religious people with PHDs?
You cannot prove/disprove God with science.

1.What does that have to do with God?-flawed
2.Theorys r theorys, not laws- flawed
3.God lies outside the Laws of science- flawed
4.God is a spiritual being, no bones-flawed
5.people are currupted, Bible is against such acts, there were no witches in Salem (possible witches never existed or died out long ago)-flawed

Disproving parts of the Bible doesnt make the whole thing false.Besides, who knows what the original Bible said?

1)part of what is needed for religion-multiple interpretations anyway
2)the rest of what is needed for religion

"Uhhh no it's not. People die, people decompose, life goes on. There are chemical reactions and laws of physics which rule the world and we discover more as years go by."
you explained the how, but not why, What about moral and ethics? politics? ect?What is the purpose of life? What happens in life?What is there after death? these ?s lay outside the relm of science...What was it like in the beggining? theories dont cut it.

"Yep, totally agree with you. Science is smart, religion is ignorance."
What if you bleieve in both religion and science? science is "knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world." (sciencemadesimple.com)

religion is...um...its very hard to define...

science has nothing to do with intelligance, religion has nothing to do with ignorance. People tend to have those qualities.
As there are ignorant scientist and smart religious people.

"If God is loving and a benevolent being, where are there children born in Third world countries into starvation and agony? Why does God let them die such a painful death at a young age? If I have my Bible correct, since those Children do not know about Jesus or God, they're pretty much damned to Hell. Tell me why God plays a sick joke on the Children by putting them into life in such pain and then damning to eternal fire. Tell me."

There are sooooooooooooo many theories dealing with why God does anything (if he does anyhting at all) in this world.
My own interpretation/ theory is that the universe is like a clock, and God made it and lets it run on its own.If God does interfer with that clock, it is within the gears (creatures) that are in the clock. God may very well let the world do its own thing. After all Jesus said it was our responsibility to feed the hungrey and poor.All that lives must die. That is part of the laws of nature.This world is not perfect. It must be balanced.God should not save some and let others die.We are all sinners, thats why we are all destined to die.God is known for his mercy, he may very well let the children into heaven. The Bible is just a book after all.God is the one who makes the rules/laws. He can break them to.Based on that theory you cant blame the world's promblems on God.People do far more destruction...(not all of them are religious mind you).And what about nature? Nature can be blamed for a lot of human deaths to...but in reality pointing fingers is pointless. As Jesus said, feed those who dont have food.Get up and make the world a better place. Blameing everything on God and religion doesnt do a thing.And we can all start with the "Man in the Mirror"-Michael Jackson
then again i could be completely wrong, after all no one can fully understand a being that "passeth all understanding"-Bible

"you cant change what you dont acknowledge"-Dr phil
"Wise men appreciate all men, for they see the good in each and know how hard it is to make anything good."-Baltasar Gracian
"To be idle is a short road to death and to be diligent is a way of life;foolish people are idle, wise people are diligent."-Buddha
The Bible teaches to be diligent in Colossians 3:23.
"The problem that exists in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them."-Albert Einstein
pay close attention to Einstein's quote, that is directed at people like you. peace over war
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Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


JJT2 wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


JJT2 wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

'NO real evidence for Jesus! None at all. 0 is the number of evidence for a Jesus person from the bible.' NO one at his time even spoke of a Jesus! Such a person yet at the time no one talked about him. Sounds fishy to me.'


there is evidence for Jesus, and besides, if he didnt start Christianity who did? What country r u from? Who ever started Christianity is "Jesus"...Jesus represents the firsts person to start the religion..which was deprived from Jewdisms...peace over war


Would you like to show some Evidence for this person? You know using some "real evidence".


you look up the evidence, its irrelavent ne way. The Bible is real, its visible- you can see it, and it has pages and words.Its as real as u can get.What the Bible teaches is also real.and thats the main point. peace over war
'And what evidence do you have that the bible is not just stories thrown together from other religions and stories that are all made up? Still you given no evidence for your Jesus. PS.. If your the truth than you should have the evidence to back it up. But you have 0 backing to anything you have said.


It doesnt matter if the Bible's stories are all lies. So what if Jesus never existed? The morals it teaches is were the ultimate truth comes in. Like not killing people and feeding the hungry. These are aesthetics truths.God and Jesus and Biblical stories dont have to be real to prove this. People who are not even religious often have similar moral values...thats all im trying to say...peace over war
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Christianity is not a copy cat religion..

LOL..

you don't know what you are saying...

hmmmmmmmmmmm

TC

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Posted 10/31/08 , edited 10/31/08

JJT2 wrote:

It doesnt matter if the Bible's stories are all lies. So what if Jesus never existed? The morals it teaches is were the ultimate truth comes in. Like not killing people and feeding the hungry. These are aesthetics truths.God and Jesus and Biblical stories dont have to be real to prove this. People who are not even religious often have similar moral values...thats all im trying to say...peace over war


That is where I can not agree with you.

1. Everyone even animals have a sense of Morality, example: there are two mice every time one of the Mice eat the other one is zapped. After a wile and the mouse eating learns that every time he eats the other mouse is in pain, the mouse that mouse stopped eating it would rather starve than eat and have the other mouse suffer for it.
(thats from a real study!)

2. Religion allows people to get around that commonsense factor. : Its ok to crash a plane into a building killing people, because its gods will! (people who are brainwashed into religion believe religion, and are able to trick them selves into doing things that is not very Moral.) Or believing in unhealthy things, such as not bringing there kids to get help from doctors because they think they think god will heal there kid if the kid really believes in him. Sometimes people will denounce facts because it may go agents what there bible said! Such as the fact Evolution, or its Scientific theory of evolution! Look up the word "Scientific theory."
"Religion and Morality really do not fit well together."

3. In the end most if not all religion has down more damage to the world than good!, it has also did more damage than "Anything" else. Its easy to see by just using a history book.



(((ps... Do not use the idea that god can not be disproved! The fact is nothing that is not real can be disproved, Santa Clause can not be disproved, Godzilla can not be disproved, Aliens can not be disproved, Bigfoot can not be disproven. Does that make them any more real???)))
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Posted 10/31/08 , edited 10/31/08

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


JJT2 wrote:

It doesnt matter if the Bible's stories are all lies. So what if Jesus never existed? The morals it teaches is were the ultimate truth comes in. Like not killing people and feeding the hungry. These are aesthetics truths.God and Jesus and Biblical stories dont have to be real to prove this. People who are not even religious often have similar moral values...thats all im trying to say...peace over war


That is where I can not agree with you.

1. Everyone even animals have a sense of Morality, example: there are two mice every time one of the Mice eat the other one is zapped. After a wile and the mouse eating learns that every time he eats the other mouse is in pain, the mouse that mouse stopped eating it would rather starve than eat and have the other mouse suffer for it.
(thats from a real study!)

2. Religion allows people to get around that commonsense factor. : Its ok to crash a plane into a building killing people, because its gods will! (people who are brainwashed into religion believe religion, and are able to trick them selves into doing things that is not very Moral.) Or believing in unhealthy things, such as not bringing there kids to get help from doctors because they think they think god will heal there kid if the kid really believes in him. Sometimes people will denounce facts because it may go agents what there bible said! Such as the fact Evolution, or its Scientific theory of evolution! Look up the word "Scientific theory."
"Religion and Morality really do not fit well together."

3. In the end most if not all religion has down more damage to the world than good!, it has also did more damage than "Anything" else. Its easy to see by just using a history book.


1) your point?
2)not all religous people fall under that category- those r what u call extremists.Religious people are capable of logical thinking like ne body else.Theories are not facts- laws are facts.Religion is meant to teach morality. But people tend to do currupted things in the name of God, but were does it say that in the Bible?
3)srry, but I dont aggree with that logic. Early Europeans have used religion as a form of currupted political power.No where in the bible does it have ne thing to do with politics.Thats more accross the line of Currupted Europeans using Religion as a tool. Chrsitianity started off in the Middle East, not Europe. btw, have you read all of my comments posted on this topic? im sure i have posted answers to all of these quesions, there is no point in me argueing the same thing with two different people on the same forum topic.


"(((ps... Do not use the idea that god can not be disproved! The fact is nothing that is not real can be disproved, Santa Clause can not be disproved, Godzilla can not be disproved, Aliens can not be disproved, Bigfoot can not be disproven. Does that make them any more real???)))"

If there is an alive Santa Clause there is a dead one, if there is an alive Godzillas, there is a dead one, Aliens....eh...could be....
those are well known myths created by people for fun.
Those r not religions and cant be confused with religions. God is not a physical being and is not of the physical world. He cant be proven or disproven by sciece because science deals with the physical world. Sciece takes a nuetral position on God, it has nothing to do with science and cant be proven by the scientific method. To compare religion with well known myths and superstions and down right disrespectful and trying to use science to disprove any thing without using the scientific method is unscientific...peace over war
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