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NEWS: Law Journal Article Supports Fansubs
Posted 10/27/08

zendude wrote:



Looking at this at another angle, this kind of illegal/legal middle ground that crunchyroll has might be that push that the Anime industry needs, like the example of Napster and down loadable music. In some way, crunchyroll is starting compromise and cleaning up it's act, though it is still a stretch from your description.

I am aware of pay per view sites for Anime, but looking at the numbers there, it is a dwarf to the potential that crunchyroll is presenting. Using evolution as a model, some sort of process in the middle needs to happen in order for Anime to gain the monetary that it wants; this goes back to my first statement. Sure the Anime industry is down, but I have some (I said "some") faith with what is happening right now.

Notes:
- It is sort of funny how the Toei Anime here has American commercials. So how much is Toei actually getting from this deal?


Just like you mentioned before, I'm also aware that fansubbing gives opportunity for reaching a wider fan base. However, that being said, the majority of fansubs fan base are still too young to directly contribute to the anime industry financially.

Pay-per-view anime channels like Anime Network on demand or FUNimation on Youtube are different than crunchyroll, because they are broadcasting channels owned by licensing companies(Anime Network by ADV Films and FUNimation on Youtube by FUNimation). Licensing companies will charge their services via subscription fees, but with the case between Gonzo and crunchyroll, GDH enters a contract with crunchyroll by purchasing the bandwidth, while completely bypasses the middleman(licensing company). This, along with the online advertisements that crunchyroll always gets from various sponsors, are what's making crunchyroll free of charge for its users.

Evolution is a slow and tedious process, I'm more in favor of a revolution; a movement that redefines and challenges the current standard of things as we know it. And for that, we need effort and guts(that's my avatar, BTW), not faith.
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Posted 10/28/08

zendude wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


MissCaramel wrote:

WOW, that sure is sume serious talkin lol. Moral rights. Wow i dont think i understood sume of that but if its supportin ANIME FANSUBS ROCK ON DUDE!!


Have you ever imagine just what legalizing fansubs will do to anime industry as a whole? Just because you lack the understanding in order to see the danger in a situation, it doesn't mean that the danger isn't there anymore.


Well, there is market shift happenning here. Some more analysis is needed to see if this strategy of Toei and Gonzo will work here in crunchyroll to see if streaming is a viable option for marketing. I am sure that you are aware of that.

I guess that crunchyroll should start having a buy the DVD option for a worldwide audience if this actually works; Anime is not as isolated anymore. Well, there would be a problem with the R1 and regional formatting. Well, the companies could use this site as launch pad. But whatever, just a thought.

A streaming site/ shop "LAWL"
Hey, I would actually buy some from here. "LAWL"


142 wrote:

First anime, then, music!


Well, it is backwards here in the U.S. It was music, then Anime.


Is that limited to downloading or is even uploading legal?
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Posted 10/28/08 , edited 10/28/08

DomFortress wrote:

Just like you mentioned before, I'm also aware that fansubbing gives opportunity for reaching a wider fan base. However, that being said, the majority of fansubs fan base are still too young to directly contribute to the anime industry financially.

Pay-per-view anime channels like Anime Network on demand or FUNimation on Youtube are different than crunchyroll, because they are broadcasting channels owned by licensing companies(Anime Network by ADV Films and FUNimation on Youtube by FUNimation). Licensing companies will charge their services via subscription fees, but with the case between Gonzo and crunchyroll, GDH enters a contract with crunchyroll by purchasing the bandwidth, while completely bypasses the middleman(licensing company). This, along with the online advertisements that crunchyroll always gets from various sponsors, are what's making crunchyroll free of charge for its users.

Evolution is a slow and tedious process, I'm more in favor of a revolution; a movement that redefines and challenges the current standard of things as we know it. And for that, we need effort and guts(that's my avatar, BTW), not faith.


Well, I guess there is where we part at ideas. I prefer statistics and data before moving to the next stage.

I'll let South Park say it for me.
Kyle:
Yeah, but you know, I learned something today. We thought we could make money on the Internet. But, while the Internet is new and exciting for creative people, it hasn't matured as a distribution mechanism to the extent that one should trade real and immediate opportunities for income for the promise of future online revenue. It will be a few years before digital distribution of media on the Internet can be monetized to the extent that necessitates content producers to forego their fair value in more traditional media.

Stan:
Yeah.

Well, I guess that quote is actually applied more towards the entertainment business, but I just like using it for anything internet media related. It will actually take both evolution and revolution to make the internet be more of a place of distribution. Considering that the other media is still at the baby stages, I guess that Anime still has a long ways to go to be at the stable ground.

Also look at my comment under this quote.


142 wrote:

Is that limited to downloading or is even uploading legal?


Well, considering Youtube and other things, the internet laws are still a bit shaky. There is one way and there is another. The middle ground is getting wider, and there is little monitoring, so I guess people are seeing that it is okay, while in truth it is not.

Not to mention the scum that is 4chan lurking in the midst of the background of American internet.
Posted 10/28/08

142 wrote:



Is that limited to downloading or is even uploading legal?


Depends on the source file, for example: files uploaded & hosted by iTune are meant to be distribute online with the consent and acknowledgment from both the artists and the record companies. Thus makes iTune a legal channel because it recognizes and contributes back towards the original creators and copyright holders. However, most fansubs came from raw files that were illegally uploaded via PTP services. These raw files were prerecorded from TV broadcasts, live recordings, and direct rip from existing media like CD and DVD. These actions were done without the consent from the original creators and copyright holders, thereby making these illegitimate raw files illegal. This is pretty straight forward until we get to fansubbing, which then we head into a gray area.

The nature of subtitling alters the once illegitimate raw files into something different from the original, thereby one can even argue that fansubs are separate existences, and thus belong to the various fansub groups responsible for the distribution of the source files.

This is why the Japanese cyberspace crime division are only charging those who uploads raw files, but not the fansub groups. And once a series got licensed, fansub groups must stop distributing the fansubs because a legitimate licensing company is now taking over the subtitling of the series with the consent from the original creators.


zendude wrote:



Well, I guess there is where we part at ideas. I prefer statistics and data before moving to the next stage.

I'll let South Park say it for me.
Kyle:
Yeah, but you know, I learned something today. We thought we could make money on the Internet. But, while the Internet is new and exciting for creative people, it hasn't matured as a distribution mechanism to the extent that one should trade real and immediate opportunities for income for the promise of future online revenue. It will be a few years before digital distribution of media on the Internet can be monetized to the extent that necessitates content producers to forego their fair value in more traditional media.

Stan:
Yeah.

Well, I guess that quote is actually applied more towards the entertainment business, but I just like using it for anything internet media related. It will actually take both evolution and revolution to make the internet be more of a place of distribution. Considering that the other media is still at the baby stages, I guess that Anime still has a long ways to go to be at the stable ground.

Also look at my comment under this quote.


142 wrote:

Is that limited to downloading or is even uploading legal?


Well, considering Youtube and other things, the internet laws are still a bit shaky. There is one way and there is another. The middle ground is getting wider, and there is little monitoring, so I guess people are seeing that it is okay, while in truth it is not.

Not to mention the scum that is 4chan lurking in the midst of the background of American internet.


It's fine that we each have our own ideals, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to exchange our ideas in a civil manner like this. And unlike yourself, I prefer the direct hands-on approach.

I've done fansubbing 14 years ago, and now I've a strong tie with my local anime community from senior members, local acting talents, industries, local businesses, and even with the press. One thing I do notice among them all, is the general state of misinformation within the anime fans. This creates a problem with distribution of anime goods and services because anime fans are mostly in the dark and in general, not interested with what should concerns them the most, the anime subculture.

You used Youtube as an example in your last statement, but you didn't present the case clearly. The contents on Youtube are hosted on its own regional bandwidth, and cannot be duplicated. Therefore Youtube itself is subject able to International Copyright Act with no exception. However, its users are free to express themselves with their contents due to the Freedom Of Speech under the Human Right Act. This is the gray area of the internet which you were referring to.

Also, animation is indeed an entertainment business, otherwise Disney may just as well be out of business. The difference between Japanese animation industry and Western animation industry is mostly cultural at best. But once again this fact is overlooked by the general anime fans due to lack of understanding and interest.
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Posted 10/28/08
I'd rather watch a subbed anime on the internet than a dubbed on tv because of all the editing. But I really do want the quality too. So, I just watch it on the internet first and buy it on dvd when it comes out. :3
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Posted 10/28/08 , edited 10/28/08

DomFortress wrote:

It's fine that we each have our own ideals, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to exchange our ideas in a civil manner like this. And unlike yourself, I prefer the direct hands-on approach.

I've done fansubbing 14 years ago, and now I've a strong tie with my local anime community from senior members, local acting talents, industries, local businesses, and even with the press. One thing I do notice among them all, is the general state of misinformation within the anime fans. This creates a problem with distribution of anime goods and services because anime fans are mostly in the dark and in general, not interested with what should concerns them the most, the anime subculture.

You used Youtube as an example in your last statement, but you didn't present the case clearly. The contents on Youtube are hosted on its own regional bandwidth, and cannot be duplicated. Therefore Youtube itself is subject able to International Copyright Act with no exception. However, its users are free to express themselves with their contents due to the Freedom Of Speech under the Human Right Act. This is the gray area of the internet which you were referring to.

Also, animation is indeed an entertainment business, otherwise Disney may just as well be out of business. The difference between Japanese animation industry and Western animation industry is mostly cultural at best. But once again this fact is overlooked by the general anime fans due to lack of understanding and interest.


You fansubbed? I was suspecting that you were really close and avid to the REAL Anime community due to the passion you have for what you are saying.

What series did you fansub? Did you ever do that archaic tape fansub, the days before belligerent downloading of Anime?

Other questions:
- What are you now for the Anime community?
- And if you don't mind me asking, what is crunchyroll to you? Why are you here?

Just a side note to fansubbing:
- I remember the days when my uncle use to bring me to comic book clubs just to see an Anime from recorded video tape with someone reading the script. Though the quality was bad (I mean really bad) and the orator or subtitles was horrid, there was a tinkle in everyone's eye with how awesome this kind of animation was. The tapes went around, and when my uncle got a call, we would head down the club to see it. How nostalgic this was. There was actually some class with some of the older fansubbers and distributors. I guess that most of the kids (maybe some adults and I'll add myself) are somewhat spoiled for having such a luxury of "click, watch, close" with crunchyroll. "LAWL"
Posted 10/28/08

zendude wrote:



You fansubbed? I was suspecting that you were really close and avid to the REAL Anime community due to the passion you have for what you are saying.

What series did you fansub? Did you ever do that archaic tape fansub, the days before belligerent downloading of Anime?

Other questions:
- What are you now for the Anime community?
- And if you don't mind me asking, what is crunchyroll to you? Why are you here?

Just a side note to fansubbing:
- I remember the days when my uncle use to bring me to comic book clubs just to see an Anime from recorded video tape with someone reading the script. Though the quality was bad (I mean really bad) and the orator or subtitles was horrid, there was a tinkle in everyone's eye with how awesome this kind of animation was. The tapes went around, and when my uncle got a call, we would head down the club to see it. How nostalgic this was. There was actually some class with some of the older fansubbers and distributors. I guess that most of the kids (maybe some adults and I'll add myself) are somewhat spoiled for having such a luxury of "click, watch, close" with crunchyroll. "LAWL"


I had helped on fansubs like "The End Of Evangelion" and "Victory Gundam" during my high school years. It was the same time that I co-funded my high school anime club and became the club president.

And yes, everything was done in analog back then, the only digital media we had then was the Laser Disk of The End Of Eva(came with a white EVA Frisbee) and Tenchi Muyo! Ryo-Ohki. Believe me when I say this, you don't what to know how much did those cost.

Right now, I'm the devil's advocate for my local anime community, constantly challenging the community's faith with facts from hell. And crunchyroll is like an internet research lab, I'm here to see for myself just what kind of impact I can make in this environment.

And yes, those were the memories of the good old days. It's also why when the younger anime fans complained about how bad the animation looked back then, I would like to personally burn their eyes with the truly horrible VHS quality that we had to work with back then.
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Posted 10/28/08
hahahaha long live Joshua Daniels! hero of anime fans
Posted 10/28/08

worrybeunhappy wrote:

hahahaha long live Joshua Daniels! hero of anime fans


Would you care to share your logic with the rest of us, before I smash it all to bits with facts from hell?
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Posted 10/28/08

DomFortress wrote:

I had helped on fansubs like "The End Of Evangelion" and "Victory Gundam" during my high school years. It was the same time that I co-funded my high school anime club and became the club president.

And yes, everything was done in analog back then, the only digital media we had then was the Laser Disk of The End Of Eva(came with a white EVA Frisbee) and Tenchi Muyo! Ryo-Ohki. Believe me when I say this, you don't what to know how much did those cost.

Right now, I'm the devil's advocate for my local anime community, constantly challenging the community's faith with facts from hell. And crunchyroll is like an internet research lab, I'm here to see for myself just what kind of impact I can make in this environment.

And yes, those were the memories of the good old days. It's also why when the younger anime fans complained about how bad the animation looked back then, I would like to personally burn their eyes with the truly horrible VHS quality that we had to work with back then.


I am actually doing some personal, in and out, research with copyright laws and Anime maybe for about 1 1/2 year now, but I am, how would you said it, still a "noob."

If you don't mind, I would like you to teach me more about the copyright laws and such. I am actually somewhat of an advocate to supporting Anime, but in a neutral way to transitioning; I guess that you already know this. Citations of U.S., international laws, personal experiences, and articles are fine.

And yes, I am on crunchyroll as well to see the activities of what these little kiddies do with Anime. I actually want to see some statistics with the growing Anime "community" compared to Anime sales, though that is really hard to see considering how wide and random the audience is. The only case that I know of this is Strike Witches, Gonzo, and streaming, probably the first of it's kind. Here are the links to the articles.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-06-21/gonzo-to-post-strike-witches-online-globally

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-10-12/strike-witches-dvd-volume-1-sells-11000-copies

I doubt that this is any indication of a success because the DVD was only available in Japan. Though, correlating to the availability of streaming of Strike Witches on Japanese Youtube, is this a step forward?

I wish that I could get some statistics on this site, but the MODs wouldn't give it to me since I pissed them off on several occasions.
Posted 10/28/08

zendude wrote:



I am actually doing some personal, in and out, research with copyright laws and Anime maybe for about 1 1/2 year now, but I am, how would you said it, still a "noob."

If you don't mind, I would like you to teach me more about the copyright laws and such. I am actually somewhat of an advocate to supporting Anime, but in a neutral way to transitioning; I guess that you already know this. Citations of U.S., international laws, personal experiences, and articles are fine.

And yes, I am on crunchyroll as well to see the activities of what these little kiddies do with Anime. I actually want to see some statistics with the growing Anime "community" compared to Anime sales, though that is really hard to see considering how wide and random the audience is. The only case that I know of this is Strike Witches, Gonzo, and streaming, probably the first of it's kind. Here are the links to the articles.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-06-21/gonzo-to-post-strike-witches-online-globally

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-10-12/strike-witches-dvd-volume-1-sells-11000-copies

I doubt that this is any indication of a success because the DVD was only available in Japan. Though, correlating to the availability of streaming of Strike Witches on Japanese Youtube, is this a step forward?

I wish that I could get some statistics on this site, but the MODs wouldn't give it to me since I pissed them off on several occasions.


I'm glad to be of some help if you need any.

Understand that Copyright Act like Citations of U.S. is only aim to protect major film and music industries from internet piracy. This wouldn't help the fansubbing community, which is now the backbone of anime subculture whether we like it or not.

I have a local friend who's a press in the anime community, he keeps us informed on the latest developments on Copyright Act and the scoops on anime industry. I also keep taps on the Asian Pacific anime community in order to find out the latest news on anime in general, sometimes even faster than Anime News Network.

As a company, GDH is indeed the first of its kind to stream anime series in real time with legitimate subtitling. I personally am in favor of this transition, it offers a real chance to promote anime worldwide as a true entertainment business. But I see a problem with the current immaturity of anime fan base on the internet. They fear what they don't understand, and that leads to a lot of misconceptions among the general fan base regarding licensing, dubbing, subtitling, and various other aspects on anime industry.
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Posted 10/28/08 , edited 10/28/08

DomFortress wrote:

I'm glad to be of some help if you need any.

Understand that Copyright Act like Citations of U.S. is only aim to protect major film and music industries from internet piracy. This wouldn't help the fansubbing community, which is now the backbone of anime subculture whether we like it or not.

I have a local friend who's a press in the anime community, he keeps us informed on the latest developments on Copyright Act and the scoops on anime industry. I also keep taps on the Asian Pacific anime community in order to find out the latest news on anime in general, sometimes even faster than Anime News Network.

As a company, GDH is indeed the first of its kind to stream anime series in real time with legitimate subtitling. I personally am in favor of this transition, it offers a real chance to promote anime worldwide as a true entertainment business. But I see a problem with the current immaturity of anime fan base on the internet. They fear what they don't understand, and that leads to a lot of misconceptions among the general fan base regarding licensing, dubbing, subtitling, and various other aspects on anime industry.


Thanks. I will be back with more questions; I mean a lot of questions. I like to be well informed.

Well, the fan base is immature. The constituency here, crunchyroll, for Anime is middle school and high school, maybe college, kids from other countries, and from what I can see a lot are from Philippines; well, this is what I can tell from this forum. And as we know it, they have little disposable income, and when they become older Anime will be easily put off as a fad., though I can't really assume that right now. And as you stated before, a lot are misinformed.

I think that it would be interesting if you made a thread here about fansubbing and laws, though it will be a stretch to get kind some serious discussion about it, but in some way it would be informative to the common streamer. It should be called "Fansubbing 101."
Posted 10/28/08

zendude wrote:



Thanks. I will be back with more questions; I mean a lot of questions. I like to be well informed.

Well, the fan base is immature. The constituency here, crunchyroll, for Anime is middle school and high school, maybe college, kids from other countries, and from what I can see a lot are from Philippines; well, this is what I can tell from this forum. And as we know it, they have little disposable income, and when they become older Anime will be easily put off as a fad., though I can't really assume that right now. And as you stated before, a lot are misinformed.

I think that it would be interesting if you made a thread here about fansubbing and laws, though it will be a stretch to get kind some serious discussion about it, but in some way it would be informative to the common streamer. It should be called "Fansubbing 101."


If the constituency on crunchyroll is the problem, then whatever result we can gather from it, can hardly be a true aspect on North American anime audiences, don't you agree?

As for a informative open forum session, I would like to see one. However, due to the confounded cr point system, I just don't have enough points to start a forum topic right now.
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Posted 10/28/08 , edited 10/28/08

DomFortress wrote:

If the constituency on crunchyroll is the problem, then whatever result we can gather from it, can hardly be a true aspect on North American anime audiences, don't you agree?

As for a informative open forum session, I would like to see one. However, due to the confounded cr point system, I just don't have enough points to start a forum topic right now.


Well, until Shinji, the father of this brainchild that is crunchyroll, do a formal survey or release statistics, then yes, we are pretty lost on actually how much this place is affecting Anime, specifically the target area which is North America. All that I could go by is what I see in forums, wall posts, number of views on the videos, and the activity of group fan clubs here. Again, I will state that I have requested statistics from the staff, but I got nothing; maybe because I pissed off the MODs (different story for another time) here and Shinji's mailbox doesn't allow you send messages to him. Well, I'll keep trying.

As for the open forum, there is rarely serious discussions here; this is probably one of the more serious ones for a while now. But hopefully, a well written report and informative will open the eyes of this place. It was actually really really good luck that I came across you, which is something that I was hoping for since I joined crunchyroll.

Well, informing the people what really happens in the back scenes will probably give them a deeper appreciation to what they are watching.
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Posted 10/28/08
I would get into a huge discussion about this, but right now it's late (for me) and I'm to tired and lazy to get into it right now....
but I have to say that it is nice to see some positive stuff about anime in the news every now and again. Especially fansubs.
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