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Shakespeare gone?
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Posted 4/24/07
Well I don't blame you. They are plays after all not novels.

Should check out his sonnets. Shakespeare would be the dopest rapper today if he was alive.
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Posted 4/24/07

azrael910 wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:

There was a wise man who once said, “There are no new stories.” I, however, disagree with this quote. Most things the Human mind is capable of coming up with have previously been thought up. This being said the quote appears to be true. However, you can make a new story out of a cliché plot by simple twisting it around, telling it in a different manor, introducing new characters to it, and by doing that last piece change the entire connotation behind it.

This being said Shakespeare characters are certainly interesting simply because the situations they are thrown into, but not complex enough to be unique. This is something that effects most playwrights because they cannot show the audience the character’s mind through anything but their actions. (It is not, however, impossible. Read Mary Chases’ Harvey for a great example of how to show unique characterization though actions alone.) As a direct result of this handicap to writers of this sort many of them simple introduce characters who are extremes. They are completely one way, but in real life people aren’t like that. We contradict ourselves. (Look over my posts for example. You’ll see that amongst my many flaws is pride. I’m arrogant, but at the same time I can admit when I’m wrong.) These contradictions are the civil wars that create new sub-stories within every repeated old story.

Shakespeare doesn’t seem to introduce these new subplots into his stories as much as is necessary for me to consider his writing original. His characters are built up from basic skeletons. Romeo, for example, is your standard rash youth. I’m having trouble putting this into words, my own lack in talent as a speaker and writer coming in here…

Do you understand? I think this may suggest a few things that I don’t mean it too, but I’ll wait for the reader’s response to see…

I suppose you are ultimately right. There are no new stories, but there are new methods to approach a story from. There are also new events, emotions, connotations, and a few other things that can thrive within a story. This being said, it’s only recently that we’ve begun to use such things in our writing so… Maybe this “flaw”, for lack of a better word, is merely the result of the style that dominated in Shakespeare’s time…?




I think you're judgeing him too much as a writer... remember, he was the 16th century version of a movie maker. His plays were designed to appeal to the peasants as well as the nobility. It just so happens his dialogue was brilliant enough that we often forget this.

Shakespeare does show the audience the characters mind quite often. That's when the character addresses the audience in the middle of the play, this is usually translated on film as the character talking to themselves.

I wouldn't go as far as to say there are no new stories.. but I wouldn't hold it against someone if they reuse classical themes in their stories. There is a fine line between inspiration and plagiarism.


SeraphAlford wrote:

@Kila, Meh, Shakespeare is not so bad once you break the language barrier... It takes time to get used to their slang...


Don't waste your time. Pearls before swine.



I was going to make a comment on all this, but then I saw that Pearls before swine thing. Who are you to call somebody swine? I'm not even the target of that arrow and I felt it had pierce me.


peregrine829 wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:


peregrine829 wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:

I just read a news paper that is saying most high schools and colleges no longer requires students to study the playwright Shakespeare. Personally I’m all for this. There are so much more important things you can teach students about than some unoriginal playwright. I’ve always considered him a master of literature but to be honest I don’t think he’s as great as many people consider him. His imagery is great, but his stories aren’t very original. Many people say that he was a master of the foote and meter, but he invented words so of course it was a lot easier for him to capture a beat… Anyway, that’s off topic. Some people are getting mad. They say Shakespeare is one of the most important figures in literature and that literature is an important subject. I agree with their later proclamation but no the former. I think literature should be taught, however I think there are more important figures to focus on than Shakespeare. Maybe he was a prodigy, but he didn’t like… completely revolutionize literature as we know it.

Honestly I’m not quite -for- this, but I’m certainly not against it. I don’t view it as that important. It’s a negligible matter only useful for a good debate here on CR.




Have you ever actually READ Shakespeare? I don't mean read out loud the lines of the character your teacher assigned to you back in English class and then zoned back out into La La Land until your character shows up again. I mean have you ever actually sat down with a copy of Macbeth, The Tempest, Julius Caesar, etc. and just read it? Try it sometime. You ger SO much more out of it.

BTW To everyone who keeps mentioning "Old English." BEOWULF is written in Old English. Shakespearean Enlish might better be described as, say, "Court-Formal"



I've not only read but also studied multiple Shakespeare plays as well as his life. Clearly your own knowledge of literature is wildly finite. Don’t act like you know -so- much more than any of the rest of us. Especially not me, cuz I don’t talk about anything without at least glancing over it first.

Whatever. Doesn’t matter. Yes, I’ve read it. Now if you would go and read over the thread, not jus the initial post, then you will find out what I find unoriginal about his plays. I’m not going to systematically go through and list off the over done attributes of every individual play, but if you’ve studied literature both before and after Shakespeare’s time you will find his stories were not the most evolutionary of stories. It was his writing style and technique that was so amazing.

Well, whatever the case, this is a debate. Not an argument. I’d like to keep it that way. So in the future, don’t be so derogatory in your voice toward readers. I mentioned before in this thread that what I am saying is opinion.



Quite right. My apologies.

I did not intend to appear so acerbic and I removed the originality comment as soon as I realized I had missed it earlier. You've obviously made quite a study of the Bard. Unfortunately many students' only exposure to Shakespeare is exactly what I said: playing Random Servant #2 or Un-named Night Watchman in English class then immediately deciding they don't like him because they haven't really made the effort to understand.

Though I do happen to love Macbeth and Julius Caesar, my TRUE love is the Classics. If you ever feel the urge to debate Vergil, Juvenal, or the like, look me up.


Thanks for that.... Don't swet it, and I'm very sorry for my own abhorant attitude taken towards you so quickly. I'll make more replies on the debate side of this when my mind is more clear. It's late here, and I'm sleepy.. Off ta bed.
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Posted 4/24/07

SeraphAlford wrote:

I was going to make a comment on all this, but then I saw that Pearls before swine thing. Who are you to call somebody swine? I'm not even the target of that arrow and I felt it had pierce me.



Ignorance is excusable. The dedication to and reveling in of ignorance is quite another.

Simpley put, there is such a thing as good taste and bad taste. Some things have been judged and rejudged throughout history and been labeled "good." You certainly can't say that about everything (especially newer things that can't be viewed objectively yet)... but there a few things you can. A 15 year old kid saying "good riddance" to shakespeare is an example of bad taste.
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Posted 4/24/07

azrael910 wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:

I was going to make a comment on all this, but then I saw that Pearls before swine thing. Who are you to call somebody swine? I'm not even the target of that arrow and I felt it had pierce me.



Ignorance is excusable. The dedication to and reveling in of ignorance is quite another.

Simpley put, there is such a thing as good taste and bad taste. Some things have been judged and rejudged throughout history and been labeled "good." You certainly can't say that about everything (especially knewer things that can't be viewed objectively yet)... but there a few things you can. A 15 year old kid saying "good riddance" to shakespeare is an example of bad taste.



azrael, my friend, it pains me greatly to say this, but some people DO prefer to remain willfully ignorant. Personally, I say let them stay that way. Just as long as they don't reproduce (there's enough stupid in the genepool as it is)

Goosebumps? Wow. That's a name I haven't heard in a while. I remember collecting every one of those rags. RL Stine was putting that crap out at about one a month for a while. I bet he's still living off the royalties.
Posted 4/24/07

SeraphAlford wrote:

WARNING 3 PAGE POST AHEAD!


thefinalword said:

seraph, your initial posts are so long I rarely bother to even read the whole thing.....

I usually just get the jist of the post from other posters....

as for shakespeare, the man was a genious in his own right.
A little bit of shakespeare is good to waken up today's moronic youth.

get them off the couch and away from their mtv bullshit.


Yes, well, that’s your own issue. If you’re not willing to read over my posts then please refrain from activity in my threads. You cannot possible add anything desirable to the conversations if you don’t even allow yourself to know the subject.



Maybe it is my own issue, but I for one would like to take part in most threads... but it's annoying you have to read half the dictionary to get to the point of your rambling.
Basically, get to the point... you're wasting bandwidth.
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Posted 4/24/07
shakespeare's still pretty much inspires a lot of people...

http://www.selfmadehero.com/manga_shakespeare/manga_shakespeare.html
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Posted 4/24/07
LOLOLOL


Romeo/Juliet remakes are bad. Worst one is the one with Leonardo Di Crapio.
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Posted 4/24/07
hey that was good....! bad leads casting though...
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Posted 4/24/07

n0odle wrote:

LOLOLOL


Romeo/Juliet remakes are bad. Worst one is the one with Leonardo Di Crapio.


I actually liked that one... at least they stuck with the original language. Personally I enjoy Baz Luhrman, but he certainly isn't for everyone. Besides, Claire Danes = win.
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Posted 4/24/07
LA gangsters talking like is the 16th century don't strike you as odd? I found it too ridiculous to watch. Mercutio doesn't get stabbed he got shot.
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Posted 4/24/07

n0odle wrote:

LA gangsters talking like is the 16th century don't strike you as odd? I found it too ridiculous to watch. Mercutio doesn't get stabbed he got shot.


well, the guns were all refered to as swords. in fact, i think they had the names of swords written on them, so it would make sense for him to get shot instead of stabbed.

i liked the bizarre match up of modern gang violence with archaic elizbethan english. the fact that it was such a contrast was a part of the appeal for me. as has been noted before, shakespeare is more known for his dialogue and prose than his actual storylines.
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Posted 4/24/07
^^ Well what fun would that be if he got stabbed? Being shot would definitely bring about a decent change rather than staying with stabbing. Maybe it would have been acceptable to you if it was some pocketknife, but preserving swords for that setting would make it the oddball out.
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Posted 4/24/07
I think it is still important to learn and read his stuff. But the over emphasis placed on him in the past is what has lead to this I think.

There are a variety of great poets and playwrights out there old and new who were just as good or greater than Shakespeare, especially those from outside Western culture. Learning those plays and poems I think will reduce the amount of euro-centricism in the world that can make us close our eyes to the broader spectrum of art out there
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Posted 4/25/07

neo_serena3 wrote:

I think it is still important to learn and read his stuff. But the over emphasis placed on him in the past is what has lead to this I think.

There are a variety of great poets and playwrights out there old and new who were just as good or greater than Shakespeare, especially those from outside Western culture. Learning those plays and poems I think will reduce the amount of euro-centricism in the world that can make us close our eyes to the broader spectrum of art out there


hmm i think it's important for people in an english speaking nation to be familiar with the legacy of the english language, and america in particular to be familiar with western culture.

It's kind of hard to promote non-western influences when you can't read them in the original language. For example, a japanese reading a japanese translation of "Hamlet" would be like an american reading an english translation of "Tale of the Genji." You may be able to follow the story and learn about the culture, but a lot of it is going to be "lost in translation." That's why famous books in foreign languages tend to be more associated with foreign language courses than literature courses.

On that note, I think a bigger emphasis should be made on teaching foreign language early in school. It's a true global community now, we should start acting like it. More history outside of western civilization should be tought as well, but I think it's more important for citizens in a nation be aware of their own history and culture. It would be nice if living in a nation meant you were familiar with it's history, but sadly, that's not really a given anymore.
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Posted 4/25/07
Hmm?!?! im doing Shakesphere this year,'much ado about nothin'
heard about it?
its sooo boring its in script form
i always thought Shakesphere was cool because it was like classy stuff
but damn when i study it,it gets boring as hell.
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