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The Anime Fansub Groups, Stealing From Anime Studio One Episode At A Time
Posted 11/1/08 , edited 11/9/08
The anime subculture is being populated by an ever increasing number of newer fans. But at the same time, these fans are being misinformed by a lot of misconceptions. This can easily make them become ignorant, immature, and shallow.

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution clearly stated that the public have the right to know. This means that we don't just have the right to request our information to be exact, we also have the duty to present our information to others without alteration. And personally, I see this as the highest form of respecting others through self-respect.

Therefore, I sincerely ask for your help in clearing up the misconceptions in anime subculture; those who would like to help themselves by getting well informed, and others who can offer to help. At the same time, please respect those that are only here to disturb the good intention of others, by promptly reporting them to the crunchyroll mods with a thank you note for their hard work.

And with that, I believe the time is right for myself to confess on a personal level, as a fromer fansubber.



How fansub groups steal from anime studios:


How illegitimate fansubs are rendering anime studios weak & unprotected:



How anime studios pay TV stations to air anime, not the other way around:


How anime studios can only protect themselves with licensing:


How internet fansubs ruining anime subculture:


How anime studios can only make up their loses when making anime with DVD sales, but get nothing from anime related merchandise sales:


How CR Community Support are more concerned about the selfish reasons of those that are clearly breaking the laws, rather than their individual right to up hold the International Copyright Act:


An entry article on WikiRoll by Brennan about how licensing works to protect copyright holders:
http://wiki.crunchyroll.com/Licensing

Here's a reference made by CR user zendude and BrylleNoGotoku regarding anime business making compromise, with anime production value has dropped to 1/3 of it's former self since 12 years ago. I suspect this is mostly, if not by partial, due to illegitimate fansubs:

zendude wrote:

As you have mentioned before that the production quality of Animes have dramatically sloped due to competing with fansubs, thus leaving us with a bunch of second rate Animes.
http://zepy.momotato.com/2008/08/30/anime-business/



BrylleNoGotoku wrote:


zendude wrote:

Well, people need to hear the truth, even if they don't want it.


Truth be told!

http://zepy.momotato.com/2008/08/30/anime-business/

Some of the information.


It costed approximately 10,000,000 yen (US$92,000) per episode to make Bamboo Blade (info from leaked internal documents)



Escaflowne had a budget of 30,000,000 yen (US$276,000) per ep


Here are more news regarding the steady decline in anime industry, with the last link being a detailed report on The Current State of Anime Industry as of SEPT. 29th, 2008:


zendude wrote:

Something to add here.
A bit old.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2005-08-10/state-of-animation-industry-in-japan


The anime market sales in Japan declined from a high of 213.5 billion yen in 2002, to 191.2 billion yen in 2003(a 10.4% drop).


This one is a bit recent.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/convention/2008/new-york-anime-festival-state-of-the-anime-industry


Notably, however, the drop in anime DVD sales has been more precipitous, despite the ever-growing interest in anime in the United States. Anime DVD sales netted roughly $600 million per year in the early 2000s, but have since decreased by $250 million.



According to Macdonald, one of the reasons the DVD market is shrinking is because of online competition. The presence of pirating, bootlegging, and fansubs means content that is not being monetized by the companies.




How fansub groups and North American licensing industry come out of the wood-works and shared with fellow fans:

zane14785 wrote:


BrylleNoGotoku wrote:


nicknatts wrote:

wait....what?


In summary, fansubs jeopardize the anime company.


Just wondering if you watched this vid yet.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/convention/2008/fansubs-and-industry-panel

As said in the video asking Fansubbers to stop isn't beneficial to the anime industry.


How legitimate anime series with subtitles are made available by anime industries:

zendude wrote:

Well the market is changing, so a hope for a cheaper subscription-like service would be more feasible for most of us. But considering how the Anime industry is, it would probably take years for things to become stable and adopt such a strategy, but it is getting there, hopefully.


http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-11-02/funimation-revenues-drive-navarre-2q-financials


Navarre Corporation, the parent company of the anime licensing and distribution company FUNimation, has announced that second quarter net sales for all of its units grew 18.5% from the same period last year.......
.......FUNimation's aggressive pursuit of deals to make its series available for digital distribution via YouTube, Joost, iTunes, the XBox Live service, and other channels also had a positive impact.


How anime studios can't protect themselves against illegitimate fansubs on the internet with licensing alone:

brennan wrote:

The problem isn't specific to the anime industry. I believe the problem is endemic in all industries that produce media. The only reason why it's affecting the anime industry so much is that the anime industry in comparison is much smaller than television or Hollywood, and is unable to bear the burden of heavy piracy.

Anime has saturated Japan, and it has become an unprofitable venture. However the Japanese are unable to export anime effectively, as most licensors have no guarantee that what is popular in Japan will be popular abroad. Essentially this means a one year lag period between the original airing date and it being available on the international market
.

Yes, the strategy is to hope for a cheap subscription like service, or to have anime available online for a limited period of time, with advertisements inbetween very much like real television. But the industry is slow to adapt, the same way that the music companies have failed to adapt to meet the challenge of a rapidly evolving set of technology. To make it worse, the law on the matter hasn't adapted either - most lawmakers are aging gentlemen who have no head for the technologies that have evolved in such a short period of time. Effective legislation of piracy or countermeasures against it is impossible.

To be honest I'm not entirely optimistic. The only hope I have is that someone techy and smart can come up with a good business model to deliver high quality anime on time that can still give back to the studios. In a sense, Funimation, Gonzo, and Toei have my admiration for trying to adapt with the changing environment, instead of fighting it like the RIAA.


How aggressive online marketing can save the weak & unprotected anime studios:

brennan wrote:


zendude wrote:

I mentioned all those before somewhere in this thread but not as neatly organized as your statement.
Well, I want to see where this is going.


I certainly hope it's going in the direction of online broadcasting. The company that embraces this ideal with an effective method of distribution will undoubtedly come on top. I mean, look at the itunes model of music distribution. Sure it doesn't fight piracy, but it has made the acquisition of high quality music files legitimately easy.


An Industry round table titled Fansubs - The Death of Anime? held together by the North American licensing industries, Japanese animation production companies, and Japanese anime studios:


zendude wrote:
The experts are admitting that the Anime industry is diminishing due to illegitimate fansubs and releases from Winny or other channels.
* Experts or you? Well, I'll go with the experts.


Mullin opened the talk by acknowledging that fansubs are an "often emotional and difficult issue", especially as anime is clearly becoming more and more popular while anime DVD sales have declined by a fifth.


Industry roundtable: Fansubs - The Death of Anime?
Source: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/convention/2008/anime-expo/industry-roundtable-fansubs-the-death-of-anime


And now I'll open the topic for discussion.
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Posted 11/1/08 , edited 11/8/08
Good read as always. I am just going to transfer some of the ideas from the other thread to this one.


If only there is some figures to see how much fansubs/legal subs are affecting the Anime industry.
- The things that I could only assume is:
15 Downloads = 1 DVD Sale
1,500 Downloads = 1 DVD Sale
15,0000 Downloads = 1 DVD Sale
x Downloads= 1 DVD Sale
- So what will be a good indicator of the positive/negative affects of legal internet distribution of Anime?


As you have mentioned before that the production quality of Animes have dramatically sloped due to competing with fansubs, thus leaving us with a bunch of second rate Animes.
http://zepy.momotato.com/2008/08/30/anime-business/
- So why not a standstill? I partly understand the concept of "Business as usual," but why should the Anime keep going while it is getting screwed?
*Standstill = Stop making crappy generic Anime
*Standstill = Retreat and strategize again
*Standstill = Limit what they are releasing

I will consider that it is really hard to stop uploaders, though that is currently changing with the laws being passed in Japan. I know that campaigning in sites like crunchyroll will costs money, and will only be limited to a number of viewers, most likely North America. But this, in my opinion, this will ensure quality and somewhat of a growth.

Quick Question:
- Do you know the details behind the deal with Gonzo and crunchyroll with Strike Witches? This actually kind of confusing considering what you said about International Copyright laws. So does the Gonzo company in the U.S. already have the rights for it so it can be seen in the U.S., or something totally different?

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-07-09/judge-compares-anime-file-sharing-to-stealing-bread
Posted 11/1/08

zendude wrote:

Good read as always. I am just going to transfer some of the ideas from the other thread to this one.


If only there is some figures to see how much fansubs/legal subs are affecting the Anime industry.
- The things that I could only assume is:
15 Downloads = 1 DVD Sale
1,500 Downloads = 1 DVD Sale
15,0000 Downloads = 1 DVD Sale
x Downloads= 1 DVD Sale
- So what will be a good indicator of the positive/negative affects of legal internet distribution of Anime?


As you have mentioned before that the production quality of Animes have dramatically sloped due to competing with fansubs, thus leaving us with a bunch of second rate Animes.
http://zepy.momotato.com/2008/08/30/anime-business/
- So why not a standstill? I partly understand the concept of "Business as usual," but why should the Anime keep going while it is getting screwed?
*Standstill = Stop making crappy generic Anime
*Standstill = Retreat and strategize again
*Standstill = Limit what they are releasing

I will consider that it is really hard to stop uploaders, though that is currently changing with the laws being passed in Japan. I know that campaigning in sites like crunchyroll will costs money, and will only be limited to a number of viewers, most likely North America. But this, in my opinion, this will ensure quality and somewhat of a growth.

Quick Question:
- Do you know the details behind the deal with Gonzo and crunchyroll with Strike Witches? This actually kind of confusing considering what you said about International Copyright laws. So does the Gonzo company in the U.S. already have the rights for it so it can be seen in the U.S., or something totally different?


That link you posted is a good find! I'll edit my first post to use it as a reference, thank you.

Now about your question regarding Gonzo streaming Strike Witches on crunchyroll. To put it quite simply: The Japan based Gonzo studio, through the help of GDH(Gonzo Digital Holdings) as its international representative, had licensed the North America based podcast community crunchyroll as their legal North American podcast station. This means that North American crunchyroll users have the right to watch and download legitimate anime series by Gonzo studio, using crunchyroll as their channel. This will allow Gonzo studio to market their anime series throughout the North America region, with crunchyroll as their legal licensing company in North America.
Posted 11/1/08

zendude wrote:


SkyLightSun wrote:

Ehh.Ehh?Ehh.?Ehh!Ehh?!Ehh.?!


Sky or Lunar, whatever.
This is actually one of the more serious threads here, not some Narutards, fangirls, or something totally random.
Please, at least be a bit considerate.


remember 3/4 of the population in crunchyroll are a bunch of idiots.......

hold on let me read this stuff..
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Posted 11/1/08
didn't understand
Posted 11/1/08

zendude wrote:


SkyLightSun wrote:

Ehh.Ehh?Ehh.?Ehh!Ehh?!Ehh.?!


Sky or Lunar, whatever.
This is actually one of the more serious threads here, not some Narutards, fangirls, or something totally random.
Please, at least be a bit considerate.


Fine.I'll read it and then I'll give my opinion about this.Happy?
Posted 11/1/08 , edited 11/2/08
do you people not read? are you guys always served with a butler and his silver platter? damn.....lazy

ok i read it. hopefully i get this shit down. so you're saying that the companies who make anime anime lose money from people fansubbing. shit i'm lost now. and it takes a lot of money to make one episode and that they don't really get it back. they use the internet to stream their animes to save money and buying DVD's cost less? shit. hopefully i get the just of it

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Posted 11/1/08
Wait..
I don't really get the point..?
Can someone explain, please? In more simple terms...
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Posted 11/2/08
Something to add here.
A bit old.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2005-08-10/state-of-animation-industry-in-japan


The anime market sales in Japan declined from a high of 213.5 billion yen in 2002, to 191.2 billion yen in 2003(a 10.4% drop).


This one is a bit recent.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/convention/2008/new-york-anime-festival-state-of-the-anime-industry


Notably, however, the drop in anime DVD sales has been more precipitous, despite the ever-growing interest in anime in the United States. Anime DVD sales netted roughly $600 million per year in the early 2000s, but have since decreased by $250 million.



According to Macdonald, one of the reasons the DVD market is shrinking is because of online competition. The presence of pirating, bootlegging, and fansubs means content that is not being monetized by the companies.


Notes to your thread:
- Mention the main source of revenue for Anime.
- Mention that the companies themselves are the ones paying for time slots.
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Posted 11/2/08
Seriously, I don't think so, Since most anime that gets subbed these days are anime that are showing in Japan, and most of the people who download it are merely Gaijins who just want to watch the anime episode that's subbed, That's no different from watching it in Japan except for watching it late, If the fansubbing industry is killing an industry that is associated to anime, It would be the anime dubbing industry(which is quite evident after what happened to Geneon USA)
Posted 11/2/08

daisuke_dark wrote:

didn't understand


Then ask the right question and help yourself by being informed.

Stealing is bad, and fansub groups are stealing from the anime studios.


Your_Typical_Friend wrote:

ok i read it. hopefully i get this shit down. so you're saying that the companies who make anime anime lose money from people fansubbing. shit i'm lost now. and it takes a lot of money to make one episode and that they don't really get it back. they use the internet to stream their animes to save money and buying DVD's cost less? shit. hopefully i get the just of it


You're getting there. Just remember that anime studios can only get paid when they license their series, but fansub groups are stealing their thunders by releasing illegitimate copies of anime on the internet.


xrewindit wrote:

Wait..
I don't really get the point..?
Can someone explain, please? In more simple terms...


Just look at my last reply, and let me know if there's anything that you don't understand.
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Posted 11/2/08
Holy CARP

YTF in the forums.

/I'll edit when I read this.
Posted 11/2/08

DemonWithin912 wrote:

Holy CARP

YTF in the forums.

/I'll edit when I read this.


you're like the 5th person to say that.....
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Posted 11/2/08


Ahh, I get it now. Thanks.
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Posted 11/2/08

Erehe wrote:

Seriously, I don't think so, Since most anime that gets subbed these days are anime that are showing in Japan, and most of the people who download it are merely Gaijins who just want to watch the anime episode that's subbed, That's no different from watching it in Japan except for watching it late, If the fansubbing industry is killing an industry that is associated to anime, It would be the anime dubbing industry(which is quite evident after what happened to Geneon USA)


If you download anime, you have (the potential) to keep it forever, which will indefinitely affect DVD sales, unlike watching it one-time-only on TV. As for the dubbing industry, the creators still get money so thats not really a problem.
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