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The Anime Fansub Groups, Stealing From Anime Studio One Episode At A Time
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32 / M / Boston
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Posted 11/2/08
I'm not going to get deep in this debate , because the argument from the topic starter is very flawed .

I will say this though , if fansubs just disappeared from the face of the Earth tomorrow , the anime studios wouldn't make more money . First off fansubs have almost no effect on the japanese anime market . Anime studios DO get paid even without licensing and dvd sales , which contradicts one of the topic starters main points . If the anime industry is looking for fansubs to disappear for anticipation of huge increases in dvd sales in western markets , then they will fail as well .( but the anime industry knows this as well) .

Let's look into the U.S. which is the second biggest anime market after Japan . The vast majority of anime fans in the u.s. are kids . Now are these kids going to go out and buy the anime when they haven't even had a chance to watch them ? I don't know too many kids , or even adults , who are just willing to shell out a good chunk of money for something sight unseen .


I'll end it with this . Topic starter you can look at the declining numbers in sales the last few years , and think that it's definitive evidence , but it again shows how flawed your reasoning is . Japan has been having enormous problems with their population in recent years . Not only is it declining , but i believe they also have the highest percentage of elderly per capita in the world .
This is why discussions like this are better off left to the experts , instead of backseat drivers like us .
Erehe 
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27 / M / Heretic's Keep
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Posted 11/2/08

mackreki wrote:

I'm not going to get deep in this debate , because the argument from the topic starter is very flawed .

I will say this though , if fansubs just disappeared from the face of the Earth tomorrow , the anime studios wouldn't make more money . First off fansubs have almost no effect on the japanese anime market . Anime studios DO get paid even without licensing and dvd sales , which contradicts one of the topic starters main points . If the anime industry is looking for fansubs to disappear for anticipation of huge increases in dvd sales in western markets , then they will fail as well .( but the anime industry knows this as well) .

Let's look into the U.S. which is the second biggest anime market after Japan . The vast majority of anime fans in the u.s. are kids . Now are these kids going to go out and buy the anime when they haven't even had a chance to watch them ? I don't know too many kids , or even adults , who are just willing to shell out a good chunk of money for something sight unseen .


I'll end it with this . Topic starter you can look at the declining numbers in sales the last few years , and think that it's definitive evidence , but it again shows how flawed your reasoning is . Japan has been having enormous problems with their population in recent years . Not only is it declining , but i believe they also have the highest percentage of elderly per capita in the world .
This is why discussions like this are better off left to the experts , instead of backseat drivers like us .


Indeed, Point in hand, The DVDs are merely bonuses and leftovers that can be recycled for extra cash, Fact is, the producers of the anime already got their big bucks from TBS and MBS, and not to mention that the only division that is associated to the anime industry that is damaged by the fansubbing industry is the US division, since fansubs kills dubs.
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28 / Sanzu no Kawa
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Posted 11/2/08 , edited 11/2/08


That just shows that Adult Swim on TV is dead.

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25 / M / BC, Canada =P
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Posted 11/2/08 , edited 11/2/08

MisterH wrote:

Additionally, a pirated copy of something doesn't equate to a lost sale, it equates to a monetary loss (most fansubs are from TV RAWs, so your not exactly stealing equal to the value of the DVDs)

There are a lot of people who don't have the money to buy the 100s of DVDs to match their extensive download collection, so while these people have stolen, they clearly would never have been able to partake in any "sales".


last time i remember watching anime is considered a LUXURY, not a RIGHT, but most people these days dont give a shit
tlm
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25 / M / Cyberspace
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Posted 11/2/08
Anime is going through exactly the same problems as all other forms of content on the internet. Best I can do is compare to what I have to deal with as a web programmer. People take and use my scripts all the time - scripts that sometimes I work an upwards of 200 hours on. But, does this mean I'm out of a job? far from it! The people who steal my scripts aren't the people I was targeting to begin with. They aren't people who would have ever paid me before. In other words, I don't lose money from them taking my work. Sure, there are other situations, and its not nearly that simple, but generally speaking, that's how it works out the majority of the time.
Most of the people getting free fan subs never would have gone out and purchased the DVDs before. So, the people selling the DVDs aren't losing any money from them. The only problem I see is that eventually, getting everything for free will be common place for everyone. People will begin thinking everything should be like anime on the internet... open to all. And personally, I can't wait till reality gives em a swift kick in the ass
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F / Singapore
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Posted 11/2/08
It's impossible for translation to be 100%, especially 2 very different languages.

I watch Fan-sub not because I support piracy but more because it's VERY MUCH faster. If I like a series enough, I'll still buy the DVD. eg. FMA
Posted 11/2/08 , edited 11/2/08

andydono wrote:
last time i remember watching anime is considered a LUXURY, not a RIGHT, but most people these days dont give a shit


If you read the whole post, you'd probably see how it relates to anime downloads not being lost sales.
I even said it's stealing.

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32 / F / Greece
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Posted 11/2/08
i'm from greece and the only way to watch anime is through internet, i have to download the series or watch it online. i don't speak japanese so the online way to watch and understand anime is with the help of fansubs.
so if they want people to buy their dvds they just have to do a good promotion of anime in other small countries.
Until this day i'll just continue donwloading and thenking the funsubbers
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28 / M
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Posted 11/2/08 , edited 11/2/08
Pinning the decline of sales on piracy alone would be over simplifying a bit. I am sure it does contribute to a loss of sales to a degree, but most likely not nearly the overall drop that was being posted. The world economy in general, especially here in the states and also japan, has been in a recession the last few years. As a result all retail markets are showing losses, not just anime. In the whole grand scheme of things, I seriously doubt that the purchase of the new limited edition box set of (insert anime name here) is going to supercede my paying my increased utility bills, higher gas prices, increased tuition fees, and rising food costs. Unfortunately, luxury goods, such as anime, will be the first to be on the chopping block.
The one thing I imagine that the studio's could do to try and deal with this is move into the 21st century with the rest of us. They should set up their own servers and provide the content themselves. If fans can sub the thing in a matter of hours for free, start contacting and contracting these people for a fraction of what they pay their translators now. Post them on their sites, distribute themselves worldwide and enforce their copyrights and make money like they do with the initial showing on broadcast television in Japan, with COMMERCIALS.
The dailyshow and comedy central do this quite well already, though their embedded player leaves something to be desired. The commercials need not be excessive, one at the start of the program, one towards the middle, and another towards the end. The shows are already segmented to be shown this way. When the number of hits go up on an anime the revenue from advertisers goes up. I know most people will sigh at the thought of commercials but I almost guarentee it will not stop you from watching it as you would still consider it free. It would also help the exposure to new markets and probably result in an increase in those all important dvd and pvc statue sales which have been lagging.
P.S
Each time someone quoted that spam at the start of the thread, it was like an entirely new spammer had joined the forum. Didn't your teachers ever tell you not to encourage them.
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31 / M / home
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Posted 11/2/08
if i couldn't get anime online for free i would probably stop watching anime all together as i would never bother paying for anime dvds in the past or in the future and i'm sure most people are like that a well!!! another thing is which may or may not be a bit retarded [sorry if it is] is that anime company's should be worrying about their own marketing for anime in japan if they cant even break even with marketing their products to their intended audience. If so they should seriously consider restructuring the way in which their industry is operating! A self sufficient japanese anime scene would be a lot smarter!? overall , then relying on sales of dvds to a foreign market! In North America we get shitty dubs,and shitty subs, most fansub groups seem to have a better grasp of the japanese language then company's out to make money as well as they put more care and thought into their translations rather then just a bland/direct translation of what is said. another point i have against the dvd only releases is that their are groups out there who specifically retranslate and upload their own versions of these anime dvds, so either way the anime will eventually be released to the internet with no one having to buy any dvds besides the group remastering it! People who buy dvds in N.A are usually hardcore anime "otakus" which have allready watched some if not all the episodes online through fansubbing groups! anime aired in north america are bland and hard on the ears as most anime voice actors speak in a monotone emotionless or worse yet the stupid superhero voice not to mention the hateful fact of extreme editing! most animes are adapted from manga [for this point its all just guesswork and opinion like the rest of my rant] and im guessing that the manga industry is self sufficient in Japan without the need of foreign money [though it would surely be a plus] bringing profit to both the manga publishers as well as the artists themselves, something else is that their is tons of manga out their that deserve to be translated and released unedited in north america, though their are groups out their who scantalate manga they mostly focus on manga like bleach naruto and one piece while better and underappreciated mangas are left to stagnate!.thats about all i have for now after just waking up maybe ill say something more later if i can add anything else! if my rant was a bit retarded i am sorry but i truly believe that if the japanese anime industry cant support itself within its own country while at the same time making a profit then they should really do something a bit more productive in their own country then pinning blame on the foreign consumer!quite the convoluted rant I am sorry but oh well!
Guardian of A/M/P
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Posted 11/2/08 , edited 11/2/08

DomFortress wrote:

It's an obvious sign that licensing company like Bandai Visual are picking up their pace to protect their property while introduce the market with the newer series ASAP. Other examples of such are:

1) Shikabane Hime: Aka by Gainax got licensed by FUNimation only just after its 3rd episode got aired in Japan, and now FUNimation is streaming the series on their YouTube site.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-10-20/funimation-confirms-shikabane-hime-aka-acquisition

2) Xamd Lost Memories by BONES is an original anime series in true HD that's licensed and streamed exclusively on the Playstaion 3 Store, with the North American audiences having advance viewing privilege 2 months before the Japanese.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-07-18/japan-to-get-xamd-anime-two-months-after-america

Despise all that, you can still find illegitimate copies of these series being released online by fansub groups.

Personally, I see this as a sign that anime studios want anime entertainment to become mainstream with the help of licensing companies. But fansub group are still violating the original creators' consents with their illegal practice.



Interesting, a time sensitive rent-type download

Each episode will cost 400 yen (about US$3.75) for the high definition version or 300 yen (US$2.82) for the standard definition version to rent. The rental period lasts three days, starting from the first viewing. deal, not bad.
- I actually don't mind paying between $1-$2 to see, "rent," an Anime episode. They should some what credit it, discount, back to you when you decide to buy to the DVD.
- A subscription fee is might be feasible, but it seems too limited to just one company. It would be interesting to see a legal Anime mega-streaming site, but that's a pipe dream. I guess if they want more people they would have to stick with Youtube or crunchyroll for now.
X Also, I don't really know the details about importing and exporting DVDs from Japan or North America to other parts of the world. I hope that you can clear that up for me.


Though, I see a problem with this due to the niche theory and the overtly releasing of second rate Anime.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121493784638920147.html
- I guess the best will be the one to prevail.
- And something from South Park said by Kyle that shows how I feel about internet distribution at this point of time:

Yeah, but you know, I learned something today. We thought we could make money on the Internet. But, while the Internet is new and exciting for creative people, it hasn't matured as a distribution mechanism to the extent that one should trade real and immediate opportunities for income for the promise of future online revenue. It will be a few years before digital distribution of media on the Internet can be monetized to the extent that necessitates content producers to forego their fair value in more traditional media.
-The burden goes double for Anime.


Some recent development with the Internet and Anime:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-11-02/funimation-revenues-drive-navarre-2q-financials

Navarre Corporation, the parent company of the anime licensing and distribution company FUNimation, has announced that second quarter net sales for all of its units grew 18.5% from the same period last year.......
.......FUNimation's aggressive pursuit of deals to make its series available for digital distribution via YouTube, Joost, iTunes, the XBox Live service, and other channels also had a positive impact.


And for the sake of satire, I will post this here.
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Posted 11/2/08 , edited 11/2/08
well fansubs tell me if i want to buy the series or not! if i like it, iwill buy it. if i dont, then i wont.

but no way in hell am i going out and buying a over-priced dvd just from what it says on the back and front! i dont waste my money! and im pretty sure burning money isnt a popular passtime.. ;)

so fansubs, help sales ALOT.
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22 / M / ...........
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Posted 11/2/08
I think the Gonzo and crunchyroll deal is good cause i saw many people donating $15 -$30 just to download the high def file on the anime episode plus CR is kinda making it better by giving the donator a special badge
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27 / M
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Posted 11/2/08
becouse of fansubbers i've started buying manga's from time to time ^^
(huh!?)
jeah becouse without the fansubs iw ould have never even heard about stuff like naruto,bleach,deathnote .. :P
(just giving a few popular ones lol)

so without fansubbers i think alot of european people would never watch anime since alot of american serializations never make it here so we gotta get by on fansubs
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23 / F / Canada
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Posted 11/2/08
I dont get what the big deal is?
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