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The Nation of Israel and Palestine
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digs 
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Posted 11/8/08
Sense another thread was sparked up with this question, I decided to make it into a thread (and I didn't see any others regarding it) here will be the appropriate place to discuss it. My opinion in short is that I support the State of Israel.
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23 / M / Singapore
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Posted 11/8/08 , edited 11/8/08
Okay now shout, scream, complained as much as u want now lol...

I support Palestine!
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27 / M / Los Angeles, Cali...
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Posted 11/8/08
pound for pound, best military in the world.

thats all i have to say about it.
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25 / M / Vault 15, New Cal...
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Posted 11/9/08

MEMPHADON wrote:

pound for pound, best military in the world.

thats all i have to say about it.

You mean the Israeli Armed Forces? I'd really agree with you if so.

Seriously, I support an Israeli-Palestinian state. Unity and understanding would solve both parties' conflict. Judaism and Islam however is oil and water, and the dream of a united Palestine is way far-fetched.
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Posted 11/9/08

digs wrote:

Sense another thread was sparked up with this question, I decided to make it into a thread (and I didn't see any others regarding it) here will be the appropriate place to discuss it. My opinion in short is that I support the State of Israel.


Why?
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23 / M / Singapore
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Posted 11/9/08
I think Israel and Palestine should be united as Jews and Muslims, but i assure it will be failed.
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Andromeda
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Posted 11/9/08 , edited 11/9/08





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27 / M / New York
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Posted 11/9/08

MEMPHADON wrote:

pound for pound, best military in the world.

thats all i have to say about it.



you might want to do a little more research
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Posted 11/9/08

azera wrote:

I think Israel and Palestine should be united as Jews and Muslims, but i assure it will be failed.


it already was before the U.N Partition Plan

eventually it will be resolved,its just middle easterners take conflicts into spans of thousands of years
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Posted 11/9/08
I knew very little information about this conflict, but after reading, through losts of websites....it seems that Palestine just wants what was promised to them and Israel seems to oppressing them not the other way around......Why the hell are we giving Israel so much money.....this isn't about religion, its more about we were here first, give us our land back. I think this can be resolved.....easily........

IN THE PAST
Palestine map in 1946
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story583.html
Zionism
In the late 1800s a group in Europe decided to colonize this land. Known as “Zionists,” this group consisted of an extremist minority of the Jewish population. They wanted to create a Jewish homeland, and considered locations in Africa and the Americas, before settling on Palestine.

At first, this immigration created no problems. However, as more and more Zionists immigrated to Palestine – many with the express wish of taking over the land for an exclusively Jewish state – the indigenous population became increasingly alarmed. Eventually, there was fighting, with escalating waves of violence. Hitler’s rise to power and Nazi atrocities, combined with Zionist activities to derail the boycott against Germany and to interfere with refugee efforts, led to increased Jewish immigration to Palestine, and conflict grew.

UN Partition Plan
Finally, in 1947 the United Nations decided to intervene. However, rather than adhering to the democratic principle espoused decades earlier by Woodrow Wilson of “self-determination of peoples,” in which the people themselves create their own state and system of government, the UN chose to revert to the medieval strategy whereby an outside power divides up other people’s land.

Under considerable Zionist pressure, the UN recommended giving away 55 percent of Palestine to a Jewish state – despite the fact that this group represented only about 30 percent of the total population, and owned under 7 percent of the land.
The map of land that was given away..........in 1967
http://domino.un.org/maps/m0103_1b.gif


CURRENTLY:
Palestinians have been living under Israeli military occupation. While in some parts Israel has allowed a Palestinian “autonomous” entity to take on such municipal functions as education, health care, infrastructure and policing, Israel retains overall power.

According to international law, an occupying force is responsible for the protection of the civilian population living under its control. Israel, however, ignores this requirement, routinely committing violations of the Geneva Conventions, a set of principles instituted after World War II to ensure that civilians would “never again” suffer as they had under Nazi occupation. Israel is one of the leading violators of these conventions today.

Israeli forces regularly confiscate private land; imprison individuals without process – including children – and physically abuse them under incarceration; demolish family homes; bulldoze orchards and crops; place entire towns under curfew; destroy shops and businesses; shoot, maim, and kill civilians – and Palestinians are without power to stop any of it.

When a child is arrested, for example – often by a group of armed soldiers in the middle of the night – parents can do nothing. Knowing that their son is most likely being beaten by soldiers on the way to the station, stripped and humiliated in prison, quite likely physically abused in multiple additional ways, and destined to be held – perhaps in isolation – for days, week, or months (all before a trial has even taken place), parents are without the ability to protect their child. Quite often, in fact, they cannot even visit him.

Finally, when the military trial under which their son is to be sentenced – often to years (sometimes decades) in prison – all they can do is hire a lawyer whose efforts, at best, will reduce the ultimate sentence by a few months. Rarely, if ever, can even the most skilled lawyer do more than afford the child a friendly face in court and be an outside witness to the injustice of the proceedings. Meanwhile, the presence of such a lawyer provides Israel cover for its “judicial system.”

Perhaps most significant – and rarely understood by people in the outside world – is the fact that Palestinians live, basically, in a prison in which Israel holds the keys.

They cannot leave Gaza or the West Bank unless Israeli guards allow them to. If they have been allowed out, they cannot return to their homes and families unless Israeli guards permit it.

Frequently, in both cases, Israel refuses such permission.

U.S. Involvement
Largely due to one-sided special-interest lobbying, U.S. taxpayers give Israel an average of $7 million per day, and since its creation have given more US. funds to Israel than to any other nation. As Americans learn about how Israel is using their tax dollars, they are increasingly calling for an end to this expenditure.

US Interests
Support for Israel interferes with: American relations with the oil-producing nations, with whom we previously had friendly ties; with Muslim consumers, who represent 1.2 billion people world-wide; and removes much-needed money from domestic American requirements — tax revenues that could be addressed to domestic needs are instead sent abroad to prop up a system of discrimination that is antithetical to American principles of equality and democracy.

In addition, the ‘special relationship’ between the U.S. and Israel is increasingly imperiling American lives.

Why, then, is this done? Close examination of the history and current situation reveals that U.S. policies in the Middle East are rarely driven by U.S. interests. Rather, they are largely driven by two very different factors:


1) Special-interest lobbying of the sort that is common to Washington. The only difference from typical lobby groups is that this lobbying is on behalf of a foreign government. Fortune Magazine rates one of the many lobby organizations working on behalf of Israel, AIPAC, as the second most powerful lobby in Washington. In total, many experts rate the pro-Israel interest group as the most powerful lobby in Washington.


2) The efforts of a growing number of individuals with close ties to Israel (known as neoconservatives) who have attained key positions at high levels of the U.S. administration, State Department, and Pentagon.

Interestingly, the oil and weapons industries, although very influential over parts of American Middle East policy, are not responsible for our relationship with Israel. In fact, quite often both of these industries find our support for Israel undermines their corporate interests in the region.

Are the issues in the Israel-Palestine conflict impossible to resolve?

No, the two major issues between the two sides have been resolved for almost a decade. These are:


The legitimacy of Israel.
During much of the Israel-Mideast conflict this has been the issue and it has been conclusively resolved. While some fundamentalist Arab rhetoric continues to challenge Israel's right to exist, most Arab nations and Palestinians now accept that Israel has secured its status and is entitled to the pre-1967 borders. More importantly, the international community and the United States are committed to support Israel's right to exist.

The right of Palestinians to self-rule.
The early rounds of peace agreements have achieved this limited degree of recognition from Israel and self-rule does exist in certain areas of the West Bank as a result of prior peace negotiations.
What major issues remain?


The status of Jerusalem.
Both sides made significant concessions on this issue at Camp David in 1999. The Palestinians agreed that the Jewish Quarter and the Western Wall, which were under Arab control until the 1967 war, would fall under Israeli sovereignty. The Israelis offered the Palestinians control of some East Jerusalem neighborhoods. At center stage was one issue: the political fate of the Harem al-Sharif/Temple Mount area of Jerusalem, which is holy both to Muslims and Jews. The Israelis ultimately proposed that the Palestinian leader would be called "custodian" of Haram al-Sharif and would be able to fly his own flag on the mosques- but they would remain under Israeli sovereignty. This proposal was rejected by the Palestinians. President Clinton ultimately concluded that the Palestinians were most responsible for failing to achieve an agreement because they were not flexible on this issue.


The future of Israeli settlements.
At Camp David in 1999, Barak agreed to eventually withdraw from 90% of the settlements. Arafat agreed that Jewish settlers on the West Bank could remain in settlement blocks in portions of the West Bank that would come under Israeli sovereignty as long as the Palestinians were compensated with new territories, probably near Gaza. However, the Palestinians maintain that the Israeli proposal would permit Israel to annex almost 9% of the Occupied Palestinian Territories in exchange for only 1% of Israel's own territory. The Palestinians observed that the proposal would create a Palestine of four separate cantons entirely surrounded by Israel. The Palestinians also objected to portions of the Israeli proposal which denied them control over their own borders, airspace and water resources.


Rights of Palestinian Refugees
About 500,000 to 780,000 Palestinians were displaced during the 1948 Israeli War of independence, either because they fled Palestine or because they were forced out by the Israelis. UN General Assembly Resolution 194, issued in December 1948, stated that refugees wishing to return to the territory of Israel and willing to live at peace with their neighbors should have the right to do so. The resolution was never implemented. In the 50 years that followed, the refugee population has grown to about 4 million (estimates range from 3.7 million to 4.6 million), many living in camps in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the Gaza Strip and West Bank, in the most primitive conditions.

At Camp David, Yasser Arafat agreed to separate the issue of the "right" of the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes from the actual settlement of claims to that right. The Israelis agreed to consider the return of refugees under humanitarian grounds in the form of family reunions and agreed to the resettlement of an unspecified number of additional refugees. The resolution of this issue would also include financial support and assistance from the United States and other countries. But no progress was made on a detailed compromise based on these concessions because of the lack of progress on the other issues.

The origin of Israeli/Palestinian Conflict
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/index.html
http://www.newsbatch.com/israel2.htm

In a Nutshell: Israeli Palestinian Conflict
http://www.mideastweb.org/nutshell.htm
What the UN says:
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
Posted 11/9/08 , edited 11/9/08
i don't agree of how this state(israel) was founded, but for that matter i'd mainly blame the european politics. all in all, i'd rather go with the jews than the muslims.

after 2ww, europe just wanted to get rid of the many jews as fast as possible, so they gave em the land in palestine. and the jews gladly accepted, wanting to leave this horror europe as fast as possible.

i'd need to look into the details, but the land that was given to the jews and afterwards proclaimed as israel was in the hands of the british governement at first, and that's what they afterwards gave to the jews.

of course there is a lot more to it...but i'll do my research later on.
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digs 
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Posted 11/9/08

leviathan343 wrote:


digs wrote:

Sense another thread was sparked up with this question, I decided to make it into a thread (and I didn't see any others regarding it) here will be the appropriate place to discuss it. My opinion in short is that I support the State of Israel.


Why?


I'll just copy and paste my post from the other thread.

Who did it belong to before the Palestinians though? In ancient time it did belong to the Hebrews, but the armies of Islam forced them out of the region and into Europe, where they suffered the Holocaust under Hitler led Germany. The Jews have been through a lot, many of them innocently murdered, driven from their homes, treated like second rate humans. From history, and even what is recorded in the Bible, the Hebrew people have been through a lot. sometimes it came about because they turned from God and were judged, yet God always saved them when they humbled their hearts and repented. Jews face so much racism around the world, they are despised by the Muslim nations (in fact, in some Islamic nations if you merely have an Israeli visa in your passport, they won't let you in the country) Iran calls them a stinking corpse, the Palestinians bomb their cities and murder innocents, Syria fund and trains terrorists to go out into Israel and hurt the innocent, Hezbolah does what they can to hurt their people and nation (just look at what happened a while ago in Beirut) Israel is a tiny tiny nation of only 8,000 sq. mi. They are just a little blip on the map, yet in a region dominated by the oil industry and poverty, Israel manages to work hard and have one of the most successful economies in the world. Israel is one of the smallest nations by population and land area in the world, yet they are one of the most despised and reviled around the world. Within their region they have no allies, only enemies, who do what they can to try and wipe them off the map. Israel is a free nation amid theocracies and dictatorships, they do not seek to start wars or oppress their neighbors. They are hated for their religion, for their race, and for their wealth. This is one of the largest examples of discrimination in the world, and it is an atrocity. Israel is a blessing to the world, and I support them as a state. Their enemies should not be treated like they want to seek piece, because what they want is to devastate and destroy the Hebrew people and the nation of Israel, they don't want to co-exist in peace. Israel is of fundamental importance to the world, and should be defended against terrorist and those who wish to harm her at all costs.
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Posted 11/9/08 , edited 11/9/08


Why in the world are Israelis ocuppying the Palestinians land? Since they have more money than Palestine, no one is going to hurt them because they can afford military weapons.......all Palestine wants is their land from 1946! The only reason they have a successful economy is because of the US CONTRIBUTING to it 7 million a day! Once again you bring religion into everything.......you cannot make a logical assumptions when you have a bias.......Clearly the formation of Israel was against the people of Palestine.......they were fine before the US interfered and divided the land. The only reason Palestine wants to hurt them is because they were kicked out of their land....since they don't have money to defend against Israel's military forces, they have to hire Hezbollah and Hamas to make a point! On top of that its the issue of Jerusalem............look at the history......this isn't an issue about religion at all.
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digs 
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Posted 11/9/08 , edited 11/9/08
But should the Palestinians be allowed to have their land from 1946? Had how did they acquire it in the first place? Historically, the land of Israel has belong to the Hebrew people. Israel has a thriving economy because of their economic policies and relative economic freedoms. Israel is a benefit to the world to have, in fact, they have now found a massive oil reserve there (something the Islamic world is very angry about)

Look at Palestine, they fund terrorism and they preform terrorist attacks in Israel (just check the news each day, so many suicide bombings by Palestinians through terrorist groups) Palestine is a threat to Israeli national security, and is an aid to the Middle Eastern theocracies and terrorist organizations. Everyone seems to be looking at the "injustice" that Israel is committing against the Palestinians (if it is argued as an injustice) but no one seems to look a the injustices committed by Israel's neighbors against Israel. Even recently, Look at what happened in 2006 between Israel and Lebanon, look at what Ahmedinejad says concerning Israel. Also, look at the Six-Day War. Egypt, Jordan, and Syria were all fighting against Israel, and Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria gave weapons and troops to those three nations. This wasn't too long ago either, it happened in 1967


fake regime" that "must be wiped off the map”

He says Zionists are


"the most detested people in all humanity"

"Those who think they can revive the stinking corpse of the usurping and fake Israeli regime by throwing a birthday party are seriously mistaken,”

"Today the reason for the Zionist regime's existence is questioned and this regime is on its way to annihilation.”

this is what he said after the war with Lebanon in 2006.


"has reached the end like a dead rat after being slapped by the Lebanese"


Here is also a list of nations who will not let Israeli citizens, or even people with Israeli visas in their passport to enter! Iran, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen. They deport you for merely having been to Israel! Clearly there is a MASSIVE injustice by some of the Middle Eastern nations regarding Israel. They are racist towards them, and they want to do anything that they can to destroy Israel. There is no desire for peaceful co-existence, what they want is to annihilate Israel. You even said in your past post that Clinton even found

the Palestinians were most responsible for failing to achieve an agreement because they were not flexible on this issue


They don't hire Hamas and Hezbollah to protect them, in fact, those terrorist organizations exploit the Palestinians by using them as a scapegoat to attack Israel (which is what the majority of the Islamic world and Middle East want) By the way, I believe it was Britain who gave the Jewish people that land, not the Israelis marching in and attacking it. And this is an issue of religion to some degree. Parts of the Koran call for death to Jews, and some organizations use something called the "Jihad" as means to say that Islam supports a mass murder of Jews. Ahmedinejad in particular calls for this, and he outright denies that the holocaust even happened.
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Posted 11/9/08 , edited 11/9/08

digs wrote:

But should the Palestinians be allowed to have their land from 1946? Had how did they acquire it in the first place? Historically, the land of Israel has belong to the Hebrew people.


Historically, the land of the USA has belong to the Native Americans. I don't think you'd be okay to leave the USA to the Native americans, right?
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