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The Nation of Israel and Palestine
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digs 
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Posted 9/13/09

Yei wrote:


digs wrote:

How is Israel trying to put the Arabs "in their place"? In Israel Arab citizens have the same freedoms and rights as Jewish citizens, they can vote and there are even political parties in the Knesset that are anti-Zionist and strongly support the Palestinians (and don't support Israel). Again, I don't see how they are trying to put Arabs in their place, it seems to be the other way around.


In the past Israel has been very inefficient when it came to dealing with terrorists. Every time they start attacking in "self-defense," they seem to kill more children than terrorists. Like in Lebanon a few years ago, they hit private homes, apartments, even an ambulance filled with patients, and there was never any terrorists anywhere near the places they would bomb.

Same goes with the recent Gaza massacre. Many places they bombed and destroyed had absolutely no connections with Hamas. They bulldozed many homes for no apparent reason, other than "they were in the way." UN shelters and schools, houses they themselves told people to take refuge in. I wonder why almost 500 children had to die, because the Israeli army can't use their bomb targeting system properly? The whole point of that attack was to get rid of Hamas right? They left without even putting a dent in Hamas's power, makes you wonder what the real reasons behind their inefficient "self-defense" massacres are.


They don't aim to kill civilians, during the Gaza defensive they did their best to minimize civilian deaths. Hamas used them as human shields... And they targeted private places because terrorists were using them to store weapons and such, they even stored them in mosques. They don't aim to just kill a bunch of innocent Arab people. There will almost always be civilian deaths in any war. If Israel does anything militarily they are automatically evil... Why does the world focus so much on them? When they see maybe 500 civilian deaths because of Israel they jump all over them, yet they ignore the genocides in Sudan, Nigeria, Somalia, and the human rights violations around the world.
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Posted 9/13/09 , edited 9/13/09

Well the information is coming from an Israeli source no point of them being bias against Israel and it is a well respected Israel newspaper. Now there is no proof that God give that land to Jews only God didnt give land to any specific group of people and documented it this world is free for anyone to live in. Thats a very racist Ideology Digs what if it was in the Quran that where you live right now my ancestors lived there 2000 years ago so now I finally want to reclaim my home so pack your shit and get out. Would you just up and leave?

Digs I have no idea where you get this idea Israel is just living their daily lives not doing anything to their arab neighbors.

- ongoing illegal occupation of Palestinian lands including, as I mentioned above, a blockade which reduces Palestinian life http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/NSPR-7UWGWL?OpenDocument to such a state of deprivation http://baltimorechronicle.com/2009/090209Lendman.shtml that the economy has collapsed, and the hospitals and doctors often don't have the material to provide even the most rudimentary of care; to say nothing of the 80% of Palestinians who suffer food insecurity if not outright starvation.

- unprovoked assault on the southern Palestinian land in late December08/January 09 which killed and wounded 5000 Palestinians and destroyed much of what was left of their infrastructure

- conducting a policy of apartheid http://www.electronicintifada.net/downloads/pdf/090608-hsrc.pdf against the Palestinians most notably construction of Israel-only settlements, ruled illegal http://www.icj-cij.org/search/index.php?pg=1&p2=2&op=0&str=israeli%20settlements%20are%20illegal&lg=2&op=1 by the ICJ, and roads on the northern Palestinian land which carve it up into disconnected bandhustans, and construction of an apartheid wall on and through Palestinian towns, agricultural land and other property around the northern Palestinian land, also ruled illegal http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1677.pdf by the ICJ

- demolition of Palestinian homes and entire neighborhoods some 20,000 http://www.icahd.org/eng/articles.asp?menu=6&submenu=2&article=517 or more since 1967

- indefinite imprisonment, in degrading conditions, of 11,000 http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1046487.html Palestinian politicians and civilians http://www.adalah.org/newsletter/eng/apr08/5.pdf , including hundreds of children, with no due process

- torturing http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/may/07/israel Palestinian prisoners including torture http://www.dci-pal.org/english/publ/research/CPReport.pdf of Palestinian child prisoners

- imposition of hundreds of checkpoints which take the Palestinians hours to pass through - that's if they're allowed to go through at all - see pregnant Palestinian stopped at checkpoint http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBPZwZ8rCgA

- daily violations of Palestinian airspace, waters and borders

- severely restricting fuel http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/23/israelandthepalestinians and power http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090813/FOREIGN/708129882/1002 to the Palestinians threatening, among other things, a public health disaster http://www.oxfam.org/node/228

- inflicting sonic booms http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Supersonic_booms.asp on the Palestinians at night

- preventing Palestinians from leaving Palestine http://www.gisha.org/UserFiles/File/publications_english/Publications%20and%20Reports_English/Frequently_Asked_Questions_November_2008.pdf to study abroad

- choking off foreign trade http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm#businesses in the lower Palestinian land in particular

- attacking Palestinian fisherman and not allowing them to fish in waters deep enough to catch anything http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0701/p06s02-wome.html

- directing indiscriminate disproportionate http://www.hrw.org/en/node/10911/section/8 artillery fire on entire Palestinian neighborhoods and districts from which Palestinian militants allegedly fire rockets.

- refusal to allow any of the three or four million Palestinian refugees http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/index.html their right of return http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3629923.stm

- shooting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nkcYaqhpng at Palestinian farmers (and internationals) harvesting their crops http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQXecLyureE

- destruction of Palestinian farmlands and orchards http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/0/EDEB26E8E8427A2EC1257612002AB0AB?opendocument


I could continue but I think former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, and former president of Ireland, Mary Robinson, put it pretty succinctly: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7708670.stm

"Their whole civilisation has been destroyed"

But hey despite all of this it is the attacks on Israel is only because they are of Jewish faith.
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Posted 9/13/09
Is it racist to say that God made a covenant with Israel because of His promise to Abraham? God didn't select them to be favorited, in fact they were judged harshly by God throughout history for idolatry (they were judged to bring them back to God, not out of spite, God is not evil.) Regardless, even the Koran says that God made that covenant with them. [2.40] O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid. [2.47] O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations..

All those links are good and all, but the facts don't add up. I don't have time to see each one and refute it, but the facts are that Israel isn't bent on destroying the Pallestinians or Arabs. The facts are that Israel forcefully removed all Jews (would this be racist?) from Gaza, the ones that refused to leave were dragged from their homes by the military. The terorrists are the ones killing civilians, nearly all attacks are taken out on them, not the Israel military. Also, individual Israeli's can't reflect the governments actions. If one is some nazi-zionistic-anti Palestinian racist then that doesn't mean that the Israel government is. When I talk about Palestine I try to destinctively not generalize the people and talk about the terrorists and Palestinian government. Another fact is that Israel gives much aid to the Gaza strip, and they offer free healthcare (something Israeli citizens don't even get) to the Palestinian people in Gaza. Israel isn't evil, they aren't bent on Arab destruction. I would argue that it's the other way around, it's the PLO and Hamas who officially state that they want to destroy Israel and the Jews... It's also the Arab word that racially descriminates against Israelis and refuses to let them enter their countries solely because they are from Israel.
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Posted 9/13/09 , edited 9/13/09
Digs really briefly cause I have to go if that statement of Israel not being bent on wiping them out (I really think they trying to take over all the land I mean they obide by no international law despite the worlds criticism because they know USA will use their veto power) then please please tell them to stop their illegal settlement expasion. Stop their horrible treatment of the Palestinians and believe me that statement would be believable. Digs you and I both know it is extremely racist to kick someone out their home due to ethnicity or religion come on you wouldnt let anyone do that to you. Everyone has a different religion and different backgrounds you cant just cite something out of your religious book that another person doesn't read and stay because my book says this you have to comply. This is why Atheist despise religion now because of such statements.
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Posted 9/13/09 , edited 9/13/09

digs wrote:

They don't aim to kill civilians, during the Gaza defensive they did their best to minimize civilian deaths. Hamas used them as human shields... And they targeted private places because terrorists were using them to store weapons and such, they even stored them in mosques. They don't aim to just kill a bunch of innocent Arab people. There will almost always be civilian deaths in any war. If Israel does anything militarily they are automatically evil... Why does the world focus so much on them? When they see maybe 500 civilian deaths because of Israel they jump all over them, yet they ignore the genocides in Sudan, Nigeria, Somalia, and the human rights violations around the world.


"Human shields" lol I really hate that term, it doesn't justify anything. Regardless, I said many of the places bombed had no connection with Hamas or any other terrorists. So if there is no terrorists within a mile radius of an ambulance and it gets bombed you can't use "human shields" as an excuse. That's the case with many bombings.

The 1400 being massacred can't be compared with wars because it's not a war. The British massacring people that it was oppressing in India or Ireland was not a war. This is an occupying, oppressive force dealing with terrorists. And the position Israel put Gaza in, the humanitarian crisis that led to the hostility, makes it even more horrible of a nation for what it did.
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Posted 9/13/09 , edited 9/13/09
Video: Former Israeli minister confirms Hasbara tactics: Anti-Semitism and the Holocaust™ are 'tricks' for silencing dissent

Representative Press
YouTube
Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:48 UTC

This video is a response to the trick repeatedly used against this channel in channel comments. It's the the standard tactic of calling someone "anti-Semitic," and its used to sabotage anyone who speaks out against the US government policy of supporting immoral and illegal Israeli policies which violate basic human rights.

Amy Goodman interviews a former Israeli minister and she helps expose this trick used against dissidents, the defamation tactic of calling people "anti-Semitic."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUGVPBO9_cA&feature=fvw
It is now confirmed Israel hates criticism.
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Posted 11/17/09 , edited 11/17/09
Was doing my daily updates on this issue and ran across a good article of President Abbas who was a puppet of Israel for one, betrayed the Palestinians by dropping the Goldstone report secondly, all the while Israel destroys Palestinian lands and continues settlement building he still wants to bicker with Hamas rather the worry about his people. This article isn't comment worthy just a good read. Anyways I got a lot of work to do catch yall later.

Is It Really Over?
The Disastrous Presidency of Mahmoud Abbas

By RANNIE AMIRI

After five long years, and at great expense to a state hoped-to-be-called Palestine, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has finally realized that subservience to the United States and Israel pays little in dividends. Indeed, what he has done to the cause of Palestine, the unity of its people, and the advancement of their rights has been nothing short of unmitigated disaster.

Last week, Abbas said he would not seek re-election in polls scheduled for January 2010. His resignation however, was quickly rejected by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), and as of today, no one has announced their intent to run in his place.

In truth, many consider the move a tactic to exert additional pressure on the Obama administration, especially after Abbas’ demand for an Israeli settlement freeze prior to talks went largely ignored.

It came, after all, on the heels of Secretary of State Clinton’s meeting with Prime Minister Netanyahu, in which she rewarded Abbas for his years of servility with the following humiliating statement:

“What the Prime Minister has offered in specifics of restraint on the policy of settlements ... is unprecedented.”

Nevertheless, a host of regional leaders publicly urged him to stay on as president (the list of which is quite telling): Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, Jordanian King Abdullah II, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak, and President Shimon Peres (who referred to him as “my old friend”). As quoted by the Ynet news website, an Israeli state official candidly stated, “It's an Israeli interest to have Abbas stay in office.”

Because elections are unlikely to be held if Abbas chooses not to run, it may be that he remains the de facto president regardless (lest we forget, his four-year term already expired in January of 2009, but was unilaterally extended for an additional year). This appears increasingly probable since the Palestinian election commission just announced their recommendation that the January 24 ballot be postponed. Even if Abbas were to step down, the complicated political bureaucracy still leaves him as head of both the PLO and Fatah, ensuring he remains highly influential.

Broken Leadership, Broken Country

Despite the logistical challenges of occupation, Palestinians took it upon themselves to hold free and fair parliamentary elections in January 2006. The winner was the Islamist group Hamas, which, to the chagrin of the self-entitled Fatah faction, earned them the right to form a government. Tensions between the two groups quickly came to a head though, after Abbas called on Hamas to not only accept a two-state solution, but recognize Israel’s “right to exist.”

In Abbas, Israel found a valuable partner; one who was willing to compel fellow Palestinians to accept conditions to which Israel itself has never agreed.

Hamas did form a unity government, including in it members of Hamas, Fatah and independents. But in their ongoing dispute, Abbas dissolved this government in the summer of 2007, and (illegally) appointed Salam Fayyad as prime minister. This eventually led to the outbreak of violence in Gaza, the expulsion of Fatah forces from the territory and a fracture in the Palestinian leadership that persists to this day.

Sitting comfortably in Cairo, it was Abbas who blamed Hamas for Israel’s savage December 2008 assault on Gaza, adopting the Israeli strategy of blaming the victim. Under a crippling siege prohibiting the most basic of humanitarian supplies, and one that left many of Gaza’s children malnourished or starving, Israel indiscriminately attacked militants and civilians alike; firing at those waving white flags of surrender and despair, using white phosphorus in densely populated areas, and striking at U.N.-operated schools and food warehouses.

Then came the report by Justice Richard Goldstone, head of the U.N. Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict. Bowing as he always has to U.S. pressure, and hoping to curry favor with the Americans and Israelis, Abbas shamefully asked the United Nations Human Rights Council to shelve discussion of it and its allegations of Israeli war crimes. Evoking outrage even amongst his supporters, the decision was eventually reversed.


Symbolic of his behavior over the past five years, Abbas’ stance on the Goldstone Report brought to the fore the embarrassment and shame many Palestinians have long felt over his actions. Capitulation to Presidents Bush and Obama, and Israeli Prime Ministers Sharon, Olmert and Netanyahu, has only led to the unabated expropriation of Palestinian land and progressively worse relations between the rival elected and appointed governments.

Though it appears doubtful the quisling Abbas will actually resign, its mere suggestion should still be cause for celebration among Palestinians. Even if it ultimately does not come to pass – at least for now – let them rejoice.

Rannie Amiri
is an independent Middle East commentator. He may be reached at: rbamiri AT yahoo DOT com.
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Posted 11/19/09
Israel has proven yet again it has absolutely no interest in peace or a solution of any kind. New illegal settlements approved, and the White house actually has disapproved. When Israel does something the US disapproves of (or at least makes it seem like it) you know it's out of control now.
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Posted 11/23/09 , edited 11/23/09
Now, now both side who've been supporting either Israel or Palestine should be calmer when discussing this sensitive issue or we won't get nowhere. Saying who has more evil or more good won't help either. The both sides has shown their evil and good sides toward each other, there's no point saying it just to make the tension worse. Isn't this thread supposed to talk about how Israeli and Palestinians can live together peacefully. Now, we should talk how to build "The Nation of Israel and Palestine"

There's many peace deals had being negotiated, either succeed or failed, it's not important. As long as it can build warm relation between 2 nations, it's what we should prioritize. Briefly speaking, there are many major issues that need to be solved before we create the Nation of Israel and Palestine:

There are numerous issues to resolve before a lasting peace can be reached, including the following:
- Strong emotions relating to the conflict on both sides
- Palestinian concerns over Israeli settlements and land.
- Status of Jerusalem
- Israeli security concerns over terrorism, safe borders, incitements, violence.
- Palestinian refugee issues


From the Israeli perspective, a key concern is security, and whether the major Palestinian figures and institutions are in fact trying to fight terrorism and promote tolerance and co-existence with Israel. Israeli concerns are based on abundant documentary and empirical evidence of many Palestinian leaders having in fact promoted and supported terrorist groups and activities. Furthermore, there is much concrete evidence of Palestinians having supported and expressed incitement against Israel, its motives, actions, and basic rights as a state. The election of Hamas has provided evidence for this view, with the Hamas charter stating unequivocally that it does not recognize Israel's right to exist. However there remain some activists on the Palestinian side who claim that there are still some positive signs on the Palestinian side, and that Israel should use these to cultivate some positive interactions with the Palestinians, even in spite of Hamas's basic opposition to the existence of the Jewish State.

A further concern is whether, as a result of this security argument, Israel will in fact allow the Palestinian community to emerge as a viable and sovereign political unit, a viable and contiguous state. There are also various economic and political restrictions placed on Palestinian people, activities, and institutions which have had a detrimental effect on the Palestinian economy and quality of life. Israel has said repeatedly that these restrictions are necessary due to security concerns, and in order to counteract ongoing efforts which promote terrorism which incite opposition to Israel's existence and rights as a country. The key obstacle therefore remains the Israeli demand for security versus Palestinian claims for statehood.

Furthermore, the identification of 'Palestinian' with 'terrorist' can be construed as problematic, and Sayigh argues that this association is used as a rationale for maintaining the status qou, and that only by recognising the status of Jewish immigrants as 'settlers' can we conceptually move forwards. However, it is the case that the Palestinian resort to militancy has made such conceptual clarity difficult to achieve.

There is a lively debate around the shape that a lasting peace settlement would take. See for example the One-state solution and Two-state solution. Authors like Cook have argued that the one-state solution is opposed by Israel because the very nature of Zionism and Jewish nationalism calls for a Jewish majority state, whilst the two-state solution would require the difficult relocation of 'half a million Jewish settlers living in the occupied Palestinian territories'.But as stated above, this presupposes a Palestinian leadership that recognizes Israel's right to exist.


Based from History of Israel-Palestine

And the peace deals as following:

1.Oslo Accords - 1991 to 1993 which mainly about :

In essence, the accords called for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from parts of the Gaza Strip and West Bank, and affirmed a Palestinian right of self-government within those areas through the creation of a Palestinian Interim Self-Government Authority. Palestinian rule was to last for a five-year interim period during which "permanent status negotiations" would commence - no later than May 1996 - in order to reach a final agreement. Major issues such as Jerusalem, Palestinian refugees, Israeli settlements, and security and borders were to be decided at these permanent status negotiations (Article V). Israel was to grant interim self-government to the Palestinians in phases.

Along with the principles, the two groups signed Letters of Mutual Recognition - the Israeli government recognized the PLO as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, while the PLO again recognized the right of the state of Israel to exist and renounced terrorism as well as other violence, and its desire for the destruction of the Israeli state.

The aim of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations was to establish a Palestinian Interim Self-Government Authority, an elected Council, for the Palestinian people in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, for a transitional period not exceeding five years, leading to a permanent settlement based on United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, and 338, an integral part of the whole peace process.

Jurisdiction of the Palestinian Council would cover the West Bank and Gaza Strip, except for issues that would be finalized in the permanent status negotiations. The two sides viewed the West Bank and Gaza as a single territorial unit.


2. Camp David - 2000 which is mainly about :

The Israeli prime minister, Ehud Barak reportedly offered the Palestinian leader approximately 95% of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip, as well as Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem, if 69 Jewish settlements (which comprise 85% of the West Bank's Jewish settlers) be ceded to Israel. He also proposed "temporary Israeli control" indefinitely over another 10% of the West Bank territory—an area including many more Jewish settlements.

According to Palestinian sources, the remaining area would be under Palestinian control, yet certain areas would be broken up by Israeli bypass roads and checkpoints. Depending on how the security roads would be configured, these Israeli roads might impede free travel by Palestinians throughout their proposed nation and reduce the ability to absorb Palestinian refugees.


3. "Road Map" for peace :

The plan called for independent actions by Israel and the Palestinian Authority, with disputed issues put off until a rapport can be established.

In the first step, the Palestinian Authority must "undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere" and a "rebuilt and re-focused Palestinian Authority security apparatus" must "begin sustained, targeted, and effective operations aimed at confronting all those engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure."

Israel was then required to dismantle settlements established after March 2001, freeze all settlement activity, remove its army from Palestinian areas occupied after 28 September 2000, end curfews and ease restrictions on movement of persons and goods.


4. Peace Valley plan - 2007

The Valley of Peace initiative is an effort to promote economic cooperation between Israel, Jordan and the Palestinians. It has received the personal attention and support of Shimon Peres, President of Israel. The initiative involves ongoing joint efforts by Israeli and Palestinian leaders to launch new industrial and economic projects, which will create new local businesses and job growth, and promote ongoing cooperation.

It also fits with other new trends and efforts within Israeli and Palestinian society to promote reconciliation based on joint economic effort and dialogue between both groups.


Some efforts and projects has been proposed and some has been implemented:

PIEFZA is a Palestinian economic organization designed to promote participation in the industrial parks which will be created by this effort. The project will also include a number of other separate efforts and projects, including:



5. United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - 1947



As you can see, how just divide 2 nations into different territory while Jerusalem became International Territory. Actually I support this plan, so there won't be any discrimination to Jews and Arabs in one nation.

5. Annapolis Conference - 2007

It is based on two state solution.
Variations on the basic idea have a long history.

The Peel Commission report of 1937 envisioned a partition of the British Mandate of Palestine area into three sections: Arab, Jewish, and a small continued Mandate area (effectively under international control), containing Jerusalem.

Partition was again proposed by the 1947 UN Partition plan for the division of Palestine. It proposed a three-way division, again with Jerusalem held separately, under international control. It too was rejected by the leadership of Arab nations and the Palestinian leadership at the time, although this plan was accepted by the Jewish inhabitants. (lol, Arabs would regret this as we can see now.)

Security Council resolutions dating back to 1976 supporting the two state solution based on the pre-1967 lines were vetoed by a permanent member. The idea has had overwhelming support in the UN General Assembly since the mid 1970's.

Many Palestinians and Israelis, as well as the Arab League, have stated that they would accept a 2-state solution based on pre-1967 lines. According to a 2002 poll conducted by PIPA, 72% of both Palestinians and Israelis supported at that time a peace settlement based on the 1967 borders so long as each group could be reassured that the other side would be cooperative in making the necessary concessions for such a settlement.

Another peace deals to solve Israel-Palestine conflict

❀--------✿
As you can see above, there are numerous attempts to end the war, however none of them actually made progress to end this entirely. Because of the ignorance from both sides that wanted to claim all the lands without being considerate to their neighbor, either from Palestine or Israel. Therefore, there's no use saying their sins out of loud to say which one is right or wrong, because both of them have been cruel and kind to each other. This is what we should have in mind.

From those peace deals, I support UN Partition Plan for the territory and use Peace Valley Plan for their improvement and cooperation in economy and social. With this, hopefully both sides would gradually decreasing their hate to each other and remember their past of how peaceful they used to be and begin to love each other for eternity.

How about you? Do you agree to one of those peace deals? Or do you have another solutions regarding to this conflict that has been last for more than 50 years? Before you post, let me remind you. Saying which one is right and wrong would not be taken seriously, and would be considered as troll that only to make the situations between Israel-Palestine worse. If you have another opinions and solution, please fell free to post.

This is brief map about territory of Israel-Palestine to helps us understand more.


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Posted 11/23/09

digs wrote:

Is it racist to say that God made a covenant with Israel because of His promise to Abraham? God didn't select them to be favorited, in fact they were judged harshly by God throughout history for idolatry (they were judged to bring them back to God, not out of spite, God is not evil.) Regardless, even the Koran says that God made that covenant with them. [2.40] O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid. [2.47] O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations..

All those links are good and all, but the facts don't add up. I don't have time to see each one and refute it, but the facts are that Israel isn't bent on destroying the Pallestinians or Arabs. The facts are that Israel forcefully removed all Jews (would this be racist?) from Gaza, the ones that refused to leave were dragged from their homes by the military. The terorrists are the ones killing civilians, nearly all attacks are taken out on them, not the Israel military. Also, individual Israeli's can't reflect the governments actions. If one is some nazi-zionistic-anti Palestinian racist then that doesn't mean that the Israel government is. When I talk about Palestine I try to destinctively not generalize the people and talk about the terrorists and Palestinian government.

Another fact is that Israel gives much aid to the Gaza strip, and they offer free healthcare (something Israeli citizens don't even get) to the Palestinian people in Gaza. Israel isn't evil, they aren't bent on Arab destruction. I would argue that it's the other way around, it's the PLO and Hamas who officially state that they want to destroy Israel and the Jews... It's also the Arab word that racially descriminates against Israelis and refuses to let them enter their countries solely because they are from Israel.


Actually, Qur'an has been critized Jews too for them broking promises to God and killing prophets including Jesus:
Here are the verse :

Al-Baqarah [2] 83-91:

[83]
And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): Worship none but Allah; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practice regular charity. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now).

[84] The promise between Allah and Children of Israel
And remember We took your covenant (to this effect): Shed no blood amongst you, nor turn out your own people from your homes: and this ye solemnly ratified, and to this ye can bear witness.

[85]
After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancor; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.

[86] About prophets
We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!

[87] Breaking promise I
They say, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word: we need no more)." Nay, Allah's curse is on them for their blasphemy: Little is it they believe.

[88] Breaking promise II
And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.

[91] Breaking promise III
When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah Hath sent down, "they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us:" yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: "Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?"

✿-------❀

Yes, Israel has been providing free health care to Palestinian civilians heal those wounds from Israel soldiers. Therefore, it'll be better if they stop all attacks and start talking with Hamas too. Hamas is also wrong, they've been firing rockets to Israel civilians too. Both are wrong, therefore, we should talk again with peace in mind, not land. Have any solution?
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Posted 11/23/09 , edited 11/23/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


digs wrote:

Is it racist to say that God made a covenant with Israel because of His promise to Abraham? God didn't select them to be favorited, in fact they were judged harshly by God throughout history for idolatry (they were judged to bring them back to God, not out of spite, God is not evil.) Regardless, even the Koran says that God made that covenant with them. [2.40] O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid. [2.47] O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations..

All those links are good and all, but the facts don't add up. I don't have time to see each one and refute it, but the facts are that Israel isn't bent on destroying the Pallestinians or Arabs. The facts are that Israel forcefully removed all Jews (would this be racist?) from Gaza, the ones that refused to leave were dragged from their homes by the military. The terorrists are the ones killing civilians, nearly all attacks are taken out on them, not the Israel military. Also, individual Israeli's can't reflect the governments actions. If one is some nazi-zionistic-anti Palestinian racist then that doesn't mean that the Israel government is. When I talk about Palestine I try to destinctively not generalize the people and talk about the terrorists and Palestinian government.

Another fact is that Israel gives much aid to the Gaza strip, and they offer free healthcare (something Israeli citizens don't even get) to the Palestinian people in Gaza. Israel isn't evil, they aren't bent on Arab destruction. I would argue that it's the other way around, it's the PLO and Hamas who officially state that they want to destroy Israel and the Jews... It's also the Arab word that racially descriminates against Israelis and refuses to let them enter their countries solely because they are from Israel.


Actually, Qur'an has been critized Jews too for them broking promises to God and killing prophets including Jesus:
Here are the verse :

Al-Baqarah [2] 83-91:

[83]
And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): Worship none but Allah; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practice regular charity. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now).

[84] The promise between Allah and Children of Israel
And remember We took your covenant (to this effect): Shed no blood amongst you, nor turn out your own people from your homes: and this ye solemnly ratified, and to this ye can bear witness.

[85]
After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancor; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.

[86] About prophets
We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!

[87] Breaking promise I
They say, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word: we need no more)." Nay, Allah's curse is on them for their blasphemy: Little is it they believe.

[88] Breaking promise II
And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.

[91] Breaking promise III
When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah Hath sent down, "they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us:" yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: "Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?"

✿-------❀

Yes, Israel has been providing free health care to Palestinian civilians heal those wounds from Israel soldiers. Therefore, it'll be better if they stop all attacks and start talking with Hamas too. Hamas is also wrong, they've been firing rockets to Israel civilians too. Both are wrong, therefore, we should talk again with peace in mind, not land. Have any solution?


My point was that even the Koran states that God made a covenant with Israel, and that covenant is what the Koran says is in the book Moses wrote. These books are in the Christian and Jewish Bible. They are the first five books (although some of Deuteronomy was not written by Moses and was written years later as a copy of the Law). My point was that all three religions acknowledge that God made a covenant with Israel. And even the Bible calls the Jews out for the sins they committed, as well as everyone else.

I know that Israel with the settlements and Hamas are both wrong. But I think as long as Hamas' goal is to destroy Israel, make Jerusalem the capitol, and call those who try to make peace with Israel traitors to the Muslim faith, there will not be peace. I think Hamas needs to be destroyed and replaced until peace can be reached because their goals are not peace but rather destruction and terrorism. On the flip side I also think all Israeli settlements should be withdrawn from the West Bank, you can't really make peace with someone that you are occupying against their will. I think what Israel fears though is that if they remove themselves from the West Bank it will only give groups like Hamas room to move in and take over the area, much like what happened in Gaza when Israel removed all Jews and settlements. I do agree that both sides need to at least have a mutual understanding of each others worldview and emotions towards the issue.
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Posted 11/23/09

digs wrote:

My point was that even the Koran states that God made a covenant with Israel, and that covenant is what the Koran says is in the book Moses wrote. These books are in the Christian and Jewish Bible. They are the first five books (although some of Deuteronomy was not written by Moses and was written years later as a copy of the Law). My point was that all three religions acknowledge that God made a covenant with Israel. And even the Bible calls the Jews out for the sins they committed, as well as everyone else.


That's why God always called for the peace between 3 religion as we're based on Prophet Abraham. God acknowledge all human beings all over the world, either they 're atheist or theist. There's no way, God not acknowledge its own creation. But what matters is, does humans acknowledge God and practice peace as God has been ordered to us?


digs wrote:

But I think as long as Hamas' goal is to destroy Israel, make Jerusalem the capitol, and call those who try to make peace with Israel traitors to the Muslim faith, there will not be peace.

I think Hamas needs to be destroyed and replaced until peace can be reached because their goals are not peace but rather destruction and terrorism.

On the flip side I also think all Israeli settlements should be withdrawn from the West Bank, you can't really make peace with someone that you are occupying against their will.

I think what Israel fears though is that if they remove themselves from the West Bank it will only give groups like Hamas room to move in and take over the area, much like what happened in Gaza when Israel removed all Jews and settlements.

I do agree that both sides need to at least have a mutual understanding of each others worldview and emotions towards the issue.


Yes, Hamas really oppose Israel, but so do Israel really oppose Hamas. They already have mutual understanding to hate each other, lol~

So you think, Hamas should be destroyed and exterminated from this world? This is a understanding when peace keep failed to be achieved.

Actually, not necessary all Israel settlements. They can keep half of Israel settlements to be there, they have rights to live there too. However, they should also share their settlements Palestinian. So it'll be fair. After all, it'll be better to build some houses for humans to live, rather than keep it as desert

I agreed, Israel should have share in West Bank too. If not, then there will be many refugees in this lands. To make Hamas trust them, Israel should give some of their settlements to Palestinian people too, especially refugees.

Mutual understanding that based on love to God and others, not love to lands. I think it'll be easier for both of them, if they actually follow God's order in their holy books. After all, Islam and Jew share some similar practice in their religion, like 5 times praying in a day, no pork, one God, etc... and the fact that Jew and Islam has been lived peacefully for century since 1000 - 1917 could be a remainder that peace is possible.

How about peace deals? Do you have any in minds?


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Posted 11/23/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


digs wrote:

My point was that even the Koran states that God made a covenant with Israel, and that covenant is what the Koran says is in the book Moses wrote. These books are in the Christian and Jewish Bible. They are the first five books (although some of Deuteronomy was not written by Moses and was written years later as a copy of the Law). My point was that all three religions acknowledge that God made a covenant with Israel. And even the Bible calls the Jews out for the sins they committed, as well as everyone else.


That's why God always called for the peace between 3 religion as we're based on Prophet Abraham. God acknowledge all human beings all over the world, either they 're atheist or theist. There's no way, God not acknowledge its own creation. But what matters is, does humans acknowledge God and practice peace as God has been ordered to us?


digs wrote:

But I think as long as Hamas' goal is to destroy Israel, make Jerusalem the capitol, and call those who try to make peace with Israel traitors to the Muslim faith, there will not be peace.

I think Hamas needs to be destroyed and replaced until peace can be reached because their goals are not peace but rather destruction and terrorism.

On the flip side I also think all Israeli settlements should be withdrawn from the West Bank, you can't really make peace with someone that you are occupying against their will.

I think what Israel fears though is that if they remove themselves from the West Bank it will only give groups like Hamas room to move in and take over the area, much like what happened in Gaza when Israel removed all Jews and settlements.

I do agree that both sides need to at least have a mutual understanding of each others worldview and emotions towards the issue.


Yes, Hamas really oppose Israel, but so do Israel really oppose Hamas. They already have mutual understanding to hate each other, lol~

So you think, Hamas should be destroyed and exterminated from this world? This is a understanding when peace keep failed to be achieved.

Actually, not necessary all Israel settlements. They can keep half of Israel settlements to be there, they have rights to live there too. However, they should also share their settlements Palestinian. So it'll be fair. After all, it'll be better to build some houses for humans to live, rather than keep it as desert

I agreed, Israel should have share in West Bank too. If not, then there will be many refugees in this lands. To make Hamas trust them, Israel should give some of their settlements to Palestinian people too, especially refugees.

Mutual understanding that based on love to God and others, not love to lands. I think it'll be easier for both of them, if they actually follow God's order in their holy books. After all, Islam and Jew share some similar practice in their religion, like 5 times praying in a day, no pork, one God, etc... and the fact that Jew and Islam has been lived peacefully for century since 1000 - 1917 could be a remainder that peace is possible.

How about peace deals? Do you have any in minds?




I do think Palestinians should be allowed to live in the settlements as well.

I will have to say that my personal level of knowledge regarding diplomacy and foreign policy is small, I would suggest no 3rd parties in the deal (like the US or the Arab states). Meaning just Israel and Palestine getting together to discuss what each side wants and what each side is willing to give. Personally I would like to see Gaza and the West Bank ruled by one government (not like now how Hamas has Gaza and West Bank has Fatah). A unified Palestine to say the least. I would also like to see Israel being a nation safely bordering Palestine without fear of terrorism. Basically, Palestine should do their best to stop terrorist and terrorist groups from attacking Israel, and Israel co-existing peacefully with a Palestinian nation where there is no need for strict border control or defensive military actions. Having both nations recognizing each others sovereignty and living next too one another as allies and economic partners.
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Posted 11/23/09

digs wrote:


I do think Palestinians should be allowed to live in the settlements as well.

I will have to say that my personal level of knowledge regarding diplomacy and foreign policy is small, I would suggest no 3rd parties in the deal (like the US or the Arab states). Meaning just Israel and Palestine getting together to discuss what each side wants and what each side is willing to give. Personally I would like to see Gaza and the West Bank ruled by one government (not like now how Hamas has Gaza and West Bank has Fatah). A unified Palestine to say the least.

I would also like to see Israel being a nation safely bordering Palestine without fear of terrorism. Basically, Palestine should do their best to stop terrorist and terrorist groups from attacking Israel, and Israel co-existing peacefully with a Palestinian nation where there is no need for strict border control or defensive military actions. Having both nations recognizing each others sovereignty and living next too one another as allies and economic partners.


Yes, both Israel and Palestine have rights to live in this land. Not based on 'Promised Land' or Anti-Semitic.

That's when they need 3rd parties to solve this together, IMO. Their hate to each other has became so extreme. But I agreed, 3rd parties like US and Arab States that really biased are useless. We need 3rd parties that really neutral and not biased, like UN maybe? I hope UN not being dominated or controlled by west, though.

As I proposed above, the major issues from Israel is security. Therefore, this future 3rd parties should implement tough security to Israel and Palestine civilians with their neutral police for security, not to oppress one side.

Having understanding and tolerance to Hamas as Palestinian that also have rights is the key point from the world, especially from Israel, US and UN. By merely calling them terrorist that need to be killed is the root of failure. Give them some share in authority too, we give them punishment when they break the law, not just because they are Hamas, the winner of 2006 election that won majority of Palestinians.
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Posted 11/26/09
I support neither. These idiotic politicians are fighting an ancient battle for the sake of land at the cost of thousands of their own people. IT'S FUCKING RETARDED. I wish they'd just draw a line where the border should be and be done with it! I told my dad that, and he said that was a really ignorant thing to say, but if being an "adult" means killing people over a GRUDGE, then I don't WANT to be an adult. Holy fuck. It's better to just ignorantly draw a line in the sand, say "that's the border", and STOP all the fighting. God.
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