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The Nation of Israel and Palestine
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digs 
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Posted 11/9/08 , edited 11/9/08
Yes, and nations change, if you look at history you will find that the majority of nations belong to someone else in the past. Borders and nations change. But debating America and Native Americans doesn't really relate to this topic (although the logic may be comparable, each situation is different and unique though)
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Posted 11/9/08


http://www.mideastweb.org/nutshell.htm
Yes the Palestinians are fighting over land from 1946, they could care less about what happened during the Roman Empire.......the Clinton statement was referring to Palestine not wanting the Israli to have soveriegnty.....(did you just skip over that??!)


The status of Jerusalem.
Both sides made significant concessions on this issue at Camp David in 1999. The Palestinians agreed that the Jewish Quarter and the Western Wall, which were under Arab control until the 1967 war, would fall under Israeli sovereignty. The Israelis offered the Palestinians control of some East Jerusalem neighborhoods. At center stage was one issue: the political fate of the Harem al-Sharif/Temple Mount area of Jerusalem, which is holy both to Muslims and Jews. The Israelis ultimately proposed that the Palestinian leader would be called "custodian" of Haram al-Sharif and would be able to fly his own flag on the mosques- but they would remain under Israeli sovereignty. This proposal was rejected by the Palestinians. President Clinton ultimately concluded that the Palestinians were most responsible for failing to achieve an agreement because they were not flexible on this issue.


This whole fued has been going on for 50 years.......the Palestinians want their land back and Israel wants peace.......thats all they are both........wrong.....look at the website above.
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Posted 11/9/08
I did look at the website, and it says a few accurate things. It fails, however, to talk about how the Middle East is vehemently opposed to an Israeli state and the wars that have been waged against it. Nor does it talk about the nations who hate Israel so much, that they won't allow people who have been to Israel into their nation. Terrorists use the Palestinians as a way to try and attack Israel. and I didn't skip over the Clinton comment, what I was saying was how Clinton even said that the Palestinians were not flexible regarding Israeli occupation (amongst other issues)
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Posted 11/9/08 , edited 11/9/08

digs wrote:

I did look at the website, and it says a few accurate things. It fails, however, to talk about how the Middle East is vehemently opposed to an Israeli state and the wars that have been waged against it. Nor does it talk about the nations who hate Israel so much, that they won't allow people who have been to Israel into their nation. Terrorists use the Palestinians as a way to try and attack Israel. and I didn't skip over the Clinton comment, what I was saying was how Clinton even said that the Palestinians were not flexible regarding Israeli occupation (amongst other issues)


Well you can understand why the oppose it, because it was made by the US...........As far as that goes where in the Koran does it speak ill of the Jews? ( I do hate saying that!) But it also mentions that Israel subjected Palestine to terrorism only out of reponse to Palestinian terrorism, I can agree that maybe terrorists organizations are using Palestine as a scapegoat.............but I need to further educate myself on why the rest of the Middle East refuses to recognize or hates Israel for that matter......
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Posted 11/9/08
I cant wait to see what happens when the US pull the funding on Israels military.

Just be interesting to see what the imaginative Israelis would do, Hope they'll be alright in the end. (Sincerely)
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Posted 11/9/08

raja613 wrote:


digs wrote:

I did look at the website, and it says a few accurate things. It fails, however, to talk about how the Middle East is vehemently opposed to an Israeli state and the wars that have been waged against it. Nor does it talk about the nations who hate Israel so much, that they won't allow people who have been to Israel into their nation. Terrorists use the Palestinians as a way to try and attack Israel. and I didn't skip over the Clinton comment, what I was saying was how Clinton even said that the Palestinians were not flexible regarding Israeli occupation (amongst other issues)


Well you can understand why the oppose it, because it was made by the US...........As far as that goes where in the Koran does it speak ill of the Jews? ( I do hate saying that!) But it also mentions that Israel subjected Palestine to terrorism only out of reponse to Palestinian terrorism, I can agree that maybe terrorists organizations are using Palestine as a scapegoat.............but I need to further educate myself on why the rest of the Middle East refuses to recognize or hates Israel for that matter......


Here is a website with references to anti-Semitism in the Koran. And I hope that none of my views come across as offensive, and I mean no ill intent toward Muslims (nor do I believe or state that all Muslims hate Jews and support anti-Semitic terrorism)
Posted 11/9/08
let them fight it out and get it over with.
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Posted 11/9/08

Akaoni21 wrote:

I cant wait to see what happens when the US pull the funding on Israels military.
Just be interesting to see what the imaginative Israelis would do, Hope they'll be alright in the end. (Sincerely)


The Israeli military is one of the most imaginative and innovative army in comparison to the the Americans considering they buy US military products and actually improve on them. Not only that they are surrounded by hostile neighbors and they have developed some good invention from the machine guns that can see and shoot around corners and even the THEL (Tactical High energy laser) which can shoot down missiles or mortars (which is being scraped for high maintenance). The Americans have only just started researching and designing lasers to be installed on boeings airplanes so as to shoot any attacking missiles. Israel is also a developed nation and is the largest recipient of US foreign aid throughout most of US history.


digs wrote:

Yes, and nations change, if you look at history you will find that the majority of nations belong to someone else in the past. Borders and nations change. But debating America and Native Americans doesn't really relate to this topic (although the logic may be comparable, each situation is different and unique though)


Hmm, imagine raja613 coming into your house and kicking you out. And then she gave your house to me. Well then you and your 52 buddies decided to take it back but drizza and raja613 and asamiueto came to my aid and push your buddies back. Luckily for you, your buddies manage to get you at least your lawn, you be staying there then.

Once in a while maybe i send my attack dogs to go to your lawn while you throw the occasional stones you can find against me or once in a while your buddies might knock on my door and give a little surprise on me. Sure i help provide you some relief, i'll turn on my television so you can see your favourite shows through the window at my own disgression though. Now drizza and raja613 wants me and you to live side by side in peace, hey the whole CR community said that house is mine so it must be true. We have peace talks where drizza will preside over the terms, btw me and drizza are close buds and share the occasional drink together but no worries. There will be no favoritism whatsoever.

Unfortunately some of digs close buddy decided to pay a little visit to drizza's house .....

Conclusion
I have preferably hope for assimilation between both Palestinian and Israel but that really borders more on naive hope than anything. One of the major recruiting tool that terrorists use is the major aid US provide to Israel and helping Israel occupying illegally in Palestine. Both Israel and Palestinian have hard liners in their parties that will attempt to block peace talks again and again, conservative hardliners views in Jewish cabinet and systematic assassination of Palestinian leaders and aggressive rockets attacks by Palestinian on residential targets. Peace talk may be possible but perhaps from a different Nation from US, due to the great suspicions the Palestinians have on US who have favour Israel on more than a few occasions.


PS1: Actually digs a long long long time ago, my grandfather owned the house so really now it really does belong to me, by the way i am expanding my house to make room for my sons and daughters so your sons and daughters living near my house at the lawn need to move.
PS2: I hope my attempt at humour did not offend anyone.
PS3: On hindsight, i shouldn't joke about such a serious matter especially on a matter i have very scant knowledge of.
PS4: This was actually quoted previously but i though i share it again.


Ref:

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Posted 11/9/08
At this point, there is never going to be a united Israeli-Palestinian state. The Palestinians have been pushed out of their land and have no source of power, no voice that will be heard. The U.S. support of Israel has resulted in the U.N. being powerless to help Palestine. The lopsided killing has resulted in a genocide of the Palestinian people. The Israeli state in Palestine was a bad idea to begin with. You cannot create a new country in the land of an existing one. The Jewish people needed a place to go after WWII but unfortunately, Palestine was not the right place. Without going into the extensive history of Israel and Palestine, I will just say the modern Israeli state is illegitimate and their actions against the Palestinian people are resented in the muslim community around the world. The hatred this brings to Israel is a danger to Israel and the U.S. I think it would be best to try and salvage what little can be salvaged. The U.S. has borne the hatred of countless countries, but our involvement in Israel has garnered extensive hostility in the middle east where we now are involved in a criminal war. It's very difficult to think of a solution to the Israel-Palestine problem, but first I think it is important to acknowledge what has taken place and that the violence directed at Palestinians is very real, and the confiscation of their land has been unjust and criminal.
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Posted 11/9/08 , edited 11/10/08

digs wrote:

But should the Palestinians be allowed to have their land from 1946? Had how did they acquire it in the first place? Historically, the land of Israel has belong to the Hebrew people.
...who stole it from the Cannaaties in a massacre..... Secondly, your land was stolen from the Native Americans. Do you think we should let them move off the reservations and have it back? If so, why do you think Israel had the right to do what amounted to the same thing?





Israel has a thriving economy because of their economic policies and relative economic freedoms. Israel is a benefit to the world to have, in fact, they have now found a massive oil reserve there (something the Islamic world is very angry about)

Look at Palestine, they fund terrorism and they preform terrorist attacks in Israel (just check the news each day, so many suicide bombings by Palestinians through terrorist groups) Palestine is a threat to Israeli national security,
Israel abuses the people there so much that I can see why they do so. You take my freedom away and I'll be damned if you stand peacefully .



and is an aid to the Middle Eastern theocracies and terrorist organizations. Everyone seems to be looking at the "injustice" that Israel is committing against the Palestinians (if it is argued as an injustice)
What? Violations of the Geneva conventions are not an injustice?




but no one seems to look a the injustices committed by Israel's neighbors against Israel. Even recently, Look at what happened in 2006 between Israel and Lebanon, look at what Ahmedinejad says concerning Israel. Also, look at the Six-Day War. Egypt, Jordan, and Syria were all fighting against Israel, and Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria gave weapons and troops to those three nations. This wasn't too long ago either, it happened in 1967


fake regime" that "must be wiped off the map”

He says Zionists are


"the most detested people in all humanity"

"Those who think they can revive the stinking corpse of the usurping and fake Israeli regime by throwing a birthday party are seriously mistaken,”

"Today the reason for the Zionist regime's existence is questioned and this regime is on its way to annihilation.”

this is what he said after the war with Lebanon in 2006.


"has reached the end like a dead rat after being slapped by the Lebanese"


Here is also a list of nations who will not let Israeli citizens, or even people with Israeli visas in their passport to enter! Iran, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen.
do they keep the Israeli people locked under armed guard like Israel keep the Palestinians?



They deport you for merely having been to Israel! Clearly there is a MASSIVE injustice by some of the Middle Eastern nations regarding Israel. They are racist towards them,
Not racist. Israel is a moral cesspool we should sanction just like they do. Fuck those evil bastards.




and they want to do anything that they can to destroy Israel. There is no desire for peaceful co-existence, what they want is to annihilate Israel. You even said in your past post that Clinton even found

the Palestinians were most responsible for failing to achieve an agreement because they were not flexible on this issue


They don't hire Hamas and Hezbollah to protect them, in fact, those terrorist organizations exploit the Palestinians by using them as a scapegoat to attack Israel (which is what the majority of the Islamic world and Middle East want) By the way, I believe it was Britain who gave the Jewish people that land,
....and forced the people living there off of it




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Posted 11/9/08
I'm keeping a close watch on this thread, to make sure trolls, jerks, inhumane dumbass doesnt make appearance here...
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Posted 11/10/08

digs wrote:

Yes, and nations change, if you look at history you will find that the majority of nations belong to someone else in the past. Borders and nations change. But debating America and Native Americans doesn't really relate to this topic
Why? I made the same comparison in my other post because I did not see someone else had brought it up. The two cases are nearly perfect analogues.


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So in saying the Hebrews took Canaan in a massacre you support the Bible? And by the way, it was judgment on the unrepentant nations, God had been patient with them for hundreds of years, they saw the miracles that God did for the Hebrews in the desert, and they knew that they were to be taken over, yet the decided to reluctantly cling to false gods and refuse to repent. One nation even barred the path of the Hebrews because they didn't want them to even cross through their land. True, America was taken by the Native Americans, and what they did was an injustice. However, they don't terrorize and murder Americans. We gave them reservations and special rights, and they have more freedom on the laws that their reservations choose to follow. I think we should allow Native Americans to integrate into our society as equals. Again though, the comparison to Israel and the Native Americans is not valid for several reason. 1- Native Americans do not pose a threat to our national security, nor do they preform terrorist acts. 2- Native Americans are not funded by other governments and trained by them to preform militant acts of terrorism. 3- Native Americans for the most part seem to be fine with the US giving them reservations and special rights, they aren't demanding. Also, religion and race play a factor. The Middle East is racist towards the Jewish people, and they are discriminant to their religion. You don't see oil rich nations led my Native Americans coming into the US (assuming the us is only 7 million people and 8,000 sq. mi.) and trying to attack it. Under your logic, should we kill off all whites, blacks, asians, every race that isn't Native American in the US? Should we abandon the government and allow an anarchy of Native Americans to rule with a new system?

Any sources for this Israeli abuse? As far as I see it, there is abuse towards the Israelis by foreign governments and terrorist organizations.

Is Israel violating the Geneva convention? And in my opinion, the Geneva Convention was a total joke and Israel should not have to submit. Their interests should come before any other national authority (as with every other nation, the UN should not and is not sovereign over the US or any nation.)

Ok... if I must I will post a few links to Israeli persecution. By the way, if it is true that Palestinians are locked under guard by the Israeli military, than what is your stance on what happened during the holocaust? They Jews had the greatest injustice done to them in world history (and through out world history)

Ok, if not racist, than what is the reason for the stated Middle Eastern and African countries for not allowing any person who has an Israeli visa or citizenship in their country? What is the reason behind it in your opinion?

So you say that Britain forced the people off the land? Who was it, the nation of Israel or the British? The British gave the Israelis the land, so is it their "fault" or Israel's fault?


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Posted 11/10/08 , edited 11/10/08

digs wrote:

So in saying the Hebrews took Canaan in a massacre you support the Bible?
I know you accept it so that is really the only point that matters.





And by the way, it was judgment on the unrepentant nations, God had been patient with them for hundreds of years, they saw the miracles that God did for the Hebrews in the desert, and they knew that they were to be taken over, yet the decided to reluctantly cling to false gods and refuse to repent.
Right. They should have just given up and let the Hebrews take their land, right? How dare they fight for their freedom! Those children the Hebrews enslaved and killed deserved what they got!







One nation even barred the path of the Hebrews because they didn't want them to even cross through their land.
Ummm, its theirs so that is their right.




True, America was taken by the Native Americans, and what they did was an injustice. However, they don't terrorize and murder Americans.
Neither did the Cannanaites until they were attacked.





We gave them reservations and special rights,
We slaughtered them and then forced them onto the land we did not want. As for "rights", we broke nearly very treaty we had with them.




and they have more freedom on the laws that their reservations choose to follow.
But not true freedom to pass whatever laws they want.



I think we should allow Native Americans to integrate into our society as equals.
Maybe they don't want to integrate. Did you think of that? Maybe they value their culture and people so they do not wish to lose them.



Again though, the comparison to Israel and the Native Americans is not valid for several reason. 1- Native Americans do not pose a threat to our national security, nor do they preform terrorist acts.
Actually, this is a good point. Israel did withhold information about 9/11 an they perform terrorist attacks. In that way they are worse than us because they continue to commit awful acts while we stopped (pretty much) abusing the Native Americans.







2- Native Americans are not funded by other governments and trained by them to preform militant acts of terrorism.
What does this have to do with the right to the land?



3- Native Americans for the most part seem to be fine with the US giving them reservations and special rights, they aren't demanding.
This is very very wrong. You need to look up some Indian history and current affairs.




Also, religion and race play a factor. The Middle East is racist towards the Jewish people, and they are discriminant to their religion. You don't see oil rich nations led my Native Americans coming into the US (assuming the us is only 7 million people and 8,000 sq. mi.) and trying to attack it.
So because there are people standing up for the Palestinians the have less right to land than the Native Americans who have no one to fight for them? I don't see how this help your cause.



Under your logic, should we kill off all whites, blacks, asians, every race that isn't Native American in the US? Should we abandon the government and allow an anarchy of Native Americans to rule with a new system?
I didn't say that. My point is that if you claim Israel had a right to come in and displace all of the people in the areas to create Israel you must think Native Americans have the right to do the same to us. If not, then you are being logically inconsistent.





[quote[

Any sources for this Israeli abuse? As far as I see it, there is abuse towards the Israelis by foreign governments and terrorist organizations.
I can give you so many links on this subject, however, the other poster already provided you with several which are very relevant. Maybe you should examine them before you ask for more links, though here are a few.
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/israel/

That one has a *ton* of links on it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/08/israelandthepalestinians

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/israel-celebrating-evil/


This is evil Digs. It is just evil.



Is Israel violating the Geneva convention?
Yes


And in my opinion, the Geneva Convention was a total joke and Israel should not have to submit.
You disagree that every nation should have to respect basic human rights?


Their interests should come before any other national authority (as with every other nation, the UN should not and is not sovereign over the US or any nation.)

Ok... if I must I will post a few links to Israeli persecution. By the way, if it is true that Palestinians are locked under guard by the Israeli military, than what is your stance on what happened during the holocaust? They Jews had the greatest injustice done to them in world history (and through out world history)
I think the holocaust was wrong as well. This does not make the actions of Israel less wrong. If anything, it makes them worse because they have become the abusers the second they got power.


Ok, if not racist, than what is the reason for the stated Middle Eastern and African countries for not allowing any person who has an Israeli visa or citizenship in their country? What is the reason behind it in your opinion?
Because Israel is an illegitimate nation that was formed by displacing hundreds of thousands of Arab people. Stuff like that causes hatred.

So you say that Britain forced the people off the land? Who was it, the nation of Israel or the British? The British gave the Israelis the land, so is it their "fault" or Israel's fault?




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Posted 11/10/08
i dont support the israeli state.

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