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The Nation of Israel and Palestine
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M / New Zealand
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Posted 1/15/09
SeraphAlford just explained pretty much my exact thoughts.
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65 / M / Croatia
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Posted 1/15/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


digs wrote:

Sense another thread was sparked up with this question, I decided to make it into a thread (and I didn't see any others regarding it) here will be the appropriate place to discuss it. My opinion in short is that I support the State of Israel.


Palestine was never a nation. It was a collection of Roman provinces. In 70 CE Titus took control of Israel by capturing Jerusalem. The Muslims renamed the Jewish homeland Palestine. The Arab nomads who later settled there became the Palestinian Arabs, but made no claim to the land. Later these squatters tried to keep the Jews from returning home after the fall of Rome. Jews fled to Germany and multiplied. Hitler gain power and sent the Jews fleeing back to a now British Palestine.

Palestinians again repulse the Jews. British Mandate falls apart. UN negotiates border agreements with Palestinian representatives and Jewish representatives. Both sides agree but Palestine decide they’re no longer content with the contract and attempt to recapture Israel. Israel retaliates and violates the border agreement by capturing even more of Palestine and integrating it into Israel.

Both people have an irrefutable right to the land. Personally I don’t think this is relevant. I think both nations should stop fighting and accept reality for what it is. Saying that Israel doesn’t have a right to its territory is like saying that America doesn’t have a right to its territory because Native Americans used to live here.

Screw ancestral ties and religious claims. Those are completely irrelevant. Israel is the first internationally acknowledge and legitimate government in the region so let them have their land. Hamas, however, will not do this.


1. Israel Rule (Biblical period) 1350 BC to 586 BC
2. Babylonian Conquest 587 BC to 538 BC
3. Israel Autonomy (under Persian & Greco-Assyrian sovereignty) 538 BC to 168 BC
4. Revolt of the Maccabees 168 BC to 143 BC
5. Rule of the Hashmoneans & their successors 143 BC to 70 AD
6. Jewish Autonomy (under Roman & Byzantine sovereignty) 70 AD to 637 AD
7. Rule of Muslim Caliphs
Mecca 637 AD to 661 AD
Umayyides 661 AD to 750 AD
Abbaaside 750 AD to 870 AD
Fatimides 969 AD to 1071 AD 637 AD to 1072 AD
8. Seljukes Rule 1072 AD to 1096 AD
9. Crusaders
Ayyubids (in parts only) 1175 AD to 1291 AD 1099 AD to 1291 AD
10. Mamelukes Rule 1291 AD to 1516 AD
11. Ottomans (Turks) 1516 AD to 1918 AD
12. British Mandate 1918 AD to 1948 AD
13. Israel rule under democracy 1948 AD



Again this stupid table. IT IS WRONG!!! Why do you think the jews left in the first place? Because Romans expelled them after they revolted. It was sometimes in first or second century. (forgot the exact year).
So number 6 is wrong. Jews rebelled against Rome, and romans destroyed their temple (second temple - the wall where they "cry" is everything thats left of it), they killed a bunch of them and banned their religion and then the jews left (or were expelled... i know its important, but im not sure, cant remember that far... I had judaism only for 1 year). There were few left, but most of them went to europe. That is the true reason why are there are jews outside Israel in the first place. So everything that happened after that is about who ruled the teritory. Jews were so few, if any, that they were obsolete factor. They came back 2000 years after. Good timing . Anyway in those 2000 years they managed to keep their faith and identity, although they were forbidden to own land, because they formed ghettos. Ugh. So anyway, after number 6, this table is WRONG, because it talks about who governed the area, jews were NOT THERE AT THE TIME FOR 2000 YEARS.
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Posted 1/15/09 , edited 1/15/09

blancer wrote:

Again this stupid table. IT IS WRONG!!! Why do you think the jews left in the first place? Because Romans expelled them after they revolted. It was sometimes in first or second century. (forgot the exact year).
So number 6 is wrong. Jews rebelled against Rome, and romans destroyed their temple (second temple - the wall where they "cry" is everything thats left of it), they killed a bunch of them and banned their religion and then the jews left (or were expelled... i know its important, but im not sure, cant remember that far... I had judaism only for 1 year). There were few left, but most of them went to europe. That is the true reason why are there are jews outside Israel in the first place. So everything that happened after that is about who ruled the teritory. Jews were so few, if any, that they were obsolete factor. They came back 2000 years after. Good timing . Anyway in those 2000 years they managed to keep their faith and identity, although they were forbidden to own land, because they formed ghettos. Ugh. So anyway, after number 6, this table is WRONG, because it talks about who governed the area, jews were NOT THERE AT THE TIME FOR 2000 YEARS.


Wow, bold contradiction. Well, in a debate about who holds the facts there’s only one course of action. We should both cite our sources.

Living Religions by Mary Pat Fisher, Pearson Education, Inc. Copyright © 2005
Glencoe World History by Jackson J. Spielvogel, PhD, Glencoe McGraw-Hill Copyright © 2003
The Jerusalem Countdown by John Hagee copyright © 1960

That's three fairly powerful sources...and I could call on more, but I hate citing sources becasue the text you have to copy is too small and it hurts my eyes.

Your turn.
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31 / M / auckland
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Posted 1/15/09
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

you forgot the canaanites. the palestinian land belonged to them before the jews came. shouldn't the right of land then be given away to the canaanites then?

and it's not only about that.

The arab palestinian "squatters" (I don't see how you can call them that since they live there for hundreds of years) shouldn't just be expelled from their land without any consideration for their well-being anyway. At least Half a MILLION arabs (a modest figure there) were forced to give up their home. Were they just suppose to all go migrate to West bank and Gaza and starve to death there?

What were Israel's plan for these Half MIllion arabs that time? do they just expect those people to magically dissapear? did they even care? maybe the jews were in a dire situation to create their own nation too then. So maybe they happen to overlook the fate of those arabs.

But what about now? why are still ignoring the horrible living condition for those arabs in west bank and gaza? even when their nation is so rich!

And to make it worse. Not only they didn't at least try to help those Arabs they evicted in the past, they're actually taking MORE land from Palestinian in west banks!
Posted 1/16/09
12. British Mandate 1918 AD to 1948 AD
13. Israel rule under democracy 1948 AD -----

there is nothing that can be disputed here.

doesn't matter what / how / why #12 owner gifted #13 ownership.
the fact is that it was done.
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65 / M / Croatia
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Posted 1/16/09 , edited 1/16/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


blancer wrote:

Again this stupid table. IT IS WRONG!!! Why do you think the jews left in the first place? Because Romans expelled them after they revolted. It was sometimes in first or second century. (forgot the exact year).
So number 6 is wrong. Jews rebelled against Rome, and romans destroyed their temple (second temple - the wall where they "cry" is everything thats left of it), they killed a bunch of them and banned their religion and then the jews left (or were expelled... i know its important, but im not sure, cant remember that far... I had judaism only for 1 year). There were few left, but most of them went to europe. That is the true reason why are there are jews outside Israel in the first place. So everything that happened after that is about who ruled the teritory. Jews were so few, if any, that they were obsolete factor. They came back 2000 years after. Good timing . Anyway in those 2000 years they managed to keep their faith and identity, although they were forbidden to own land, because they formed ghettos. Ugh. So anyway, after number 6, this table is WRONG, because it talks about who governed the area, jews were NOT THERE AT THE TIME FOR 2000 YEARS.


Wow, bold contradiction. Well, in a debate about who holds the facts there’s only one course of action. We should both cite our sources.

Living Religions by Mary Pat Fisher, Pearson Education, Inc. Copyright © 2005
Glencoe World History by Jackson J. Spielvogel, PhD, Glencoe McGraw-Hill Copyright © 2003
The Jerusalem Countdown by John Hagee copyright © 1960

That's three fairly powerful sources...and I could call on more, but I hate citing sources becasue the text you have to copy is too small and it hurts my eyes.

Your turn.


OK, I will, but its been 2 years since my MA in religious cultures, and I have to find papers from 4 years ago... my specialization lies in western Europe - Islamic immigrants relations. Thats why my statement is so unclear. If I could remember the whole thing correctly... I will quote this again as soon as I find the source. Damn the forgetfulness. But it has something to do with what jewish people call second exile, which happened after destruction of temple.... btw, yes, there were always some jews living there, but everyone else left to what is today Spain, France, and England. But, as I said, I will quote or edit this again when I can find my (my professors ) sources.
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Posted 1/16/09

supermalv wrote:

you forgot the canaanites. the palestinian land belonged to them before the jews came. shouldn't the right of land then be given away to the canaanites then?





and it's not only about that.

The arab palestinian "squatters" (I don't see how you can call them that since they live there for hundreds of years)


They were squatters. The lived in the region but made no governmental claim to the land.



shouldn't just be expelled from their land without any consideration for their well-being anyway.


Well, the UN is the one that set up the border agreement. The Palestinians and Jews agreed. So, the Jews didn’t force anybody out of their land.


At least Half a MILLION arabs (a modest figure there) were forced to give up their home.
\

Take it up with the Palestinian leaders who agreed to the contract and the UN.


Were they just suppose to all go migrate to West bank and Gaza and starve to death there?


Actually, if they had just accepted the initial border agreements everyone would be living a pretty decent life by now.


What were Israel's plan for these Half MIllion arabs that time?


Israel didn't exist until after the border agreements. You just had Jewish leaders and Palestinian leaders. Israel was established afterwards. But, again, they didn't draw the borders. The UN did. And again, the Palestinian Arabs wouldn't be starving if their leaders hadn't instigated a fight.

do they just expect those people to magically dissapear? did they even care? maybe the jews were in a dire situation to create their own nation too then. So maybe they happen to overlook the fate of those arabs.

But what about now? why are still ignoring the horrible living condition for those arabs in west bank and gaza? even when their nation is so rich!


And to make it worse. Not only they didn't at least try to help those Arabs they evicted in the past,


Didn't even evict them. Actually, many Israeli citizens are called "Arab-Israelis," and not Jews. That's because they remained in the region even after the border agreements and became a part of Israel. In addition, the Jews didn't make the border agreement.

Look, all of this is irrelevant. The fact is that Israel exists and by international standard they have a right to exist. The Palestinians may have had great grand parents who lived there, but that really has nothing to do with anything. It's a straw man tactic. Regardless of who desserves the land or has the ancestral claim, the ownership claim was awarded to Israel. Should it have been? Doesn't matter, it was. Sooner Hamas and Fatah accept this the sooner everyone can go and live in peace.

The Palestinians don't even want the war! Just their government.
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32 / F / my bedroom
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Posted 1/16/09
I support Palestine
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M / big UK chinatown
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Posted 1/16/09
i support israel why...?


Christianity and Judaism came from the middle east , so tell me why no countries in the middle east have majority christian or Judaism as religion and only islam, i will tell you why. Muslims massacred them invaded them and destroyed all traces of Christianity and Judaism.

first lets look at the history, 2000 years ago there was a country called israel , a lot bigger than the one today mind. since greedy Muslims keep land grabbing. which actually lived in peace till Egypt invaded and genocided them in the name of Allah ,Mohamed so on around the 7th century . btw the gaza strip was apart of old israel 2000 years ago.

some would call whats going on now as karma , revenge . how does it feel now to be invaded and massacred like you done 1300 years ago. paybacks are a bitch.

long live israel , may she grow bigger than what she is now and gain all her land back that was stolen of her.


can someone provide me evidence of a country called Palestine, when did it exist before 2000 years ago. cant have islam wasnt invented then.
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Andromeda
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Posted 1/16/09 , edited 1/16/09

SeraphAlford wrote:

1. Israel Rule (Biblical period) 1350 BC to 586 BC
2. Babylonian Conquest 587 BC to 538 BC
3. Israel Autonomy (under Persian & Greco-Assyrian sovereignty) 538 BC to 168 BC
4. Revolt of the Maccabees 168 BC to 143 BC
5. Rule of the Hashmoneans & their successors 143 BC to 70 AD
6. Jewish Autonomy (under Roman & Byzantine sovereignty) 70 AD to 637 AD
7. Rule of Muslim Caliphs
Mecca 637 AD to 661 AD
Umayyides 661 AD to 750 AD
Abbaaside 750 AD to 870 AD
Fatimides 969 AD to 1071 AD 637 AD to 1072 AD
8. Seljukes Rule 1072 AD to 1096 AD
9. Crusaders
Ayyubids (in parts only) 1175 AD to 1291 AD 1099 AD to 1291 AD
10. Mamelukes Rule 1291 AD to 1516 AD
11. Ottomans (Turks) 1516 AD to 1918 AD
12. British Mandate 1918 AD to 1948 AD
13. Israel rule under democracy 1948 AD


Just how many times these dates are copied-pasted, but no one (except Malv) added
0. Canaanites Wasn't bible mentioned that, too?

You agree that the claim that some land WAS belong to someone shouldn't be a warranted for occupation it, and now the claim that palestine land belongs to Israeli is false. ( it shouldn't be an excuse any more)


treasonirish wrote:

Christianity and Judaism came from the middle east , so tell me why no countries in the middle east have majority christian or Judaism as religion and only islam, i will tell you why. Muslims massacred them invaded them and destroyed all traces of Christianity and Judaism.


Would you please stop this nonsense assumption, Have you read about The Treaty of Umar 637 AD, Also many christians embraced Islam, and still there are Christians there even in Gaza.


treasonirish wrote:


can someone provide me evidence of a country called Palestine, when did it exist before 2000 years ago. cant have islam wasnt invented then.

it comes from Philistia. but the current Palestine real boundaries are what were determined by Sykes-Picot 1916.
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23 / M / Singapore
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Posted 1/16/09

treasonirish wrote:

i support israel why...?


Christianity and Judaism came from the middle east , so tell me why no countries in the middle east have majority christian or Judaism as religion and only islam, i will tell you why. Muslims massacred them invaded them and destroyed all traces of Christianity and Judaism.

first lets look at the history, 2000 years ago there was a country called israel , a lot bigger than the one today mind. since greedy Muslims keep land grabbing. which actually lived in peace till Egypt invaded and genocided them in the name of Allah ,Mohamed so on around the 7th century . btw the gaza strip was apart of old israel 2000 years ago.

some would call whats going on now as karma , revenge . how does it feel now to be invaded and massacred like you done 1300 years ago. paybacks are a bitch.

long live israel , may she grow bigger than what she is now and gain all her land back that was stolen of her.


can someone provide me evidence of a country called Palestine, when did it exist before 2000 years ago. cant have islam wasnt invented then.


So your supporting the war criminals that make the war or the Jews you want them to live on?

I rather have both muslims and jews unite together then supporting Israel inhuman offensive campaign.
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22 / F / Who Cares !
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Posted 6/27/09
Israel kills poor people that all they do is wanting their land from thousends of years!!
and btw palestinan are not just muslims ! there's christians
palestine is the place where Jesus was born
Fuck Israel , Fuck the real Terrorists
Yei
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Posted 6/27/09

NozomiGirl wrote:

Israel kills poor people that all they do is wanting their land from thousends of years!!
and btw palestinan are not just muslims ! there's christians
palestine is the place where Jesus was born
Fuck Israel , Fuck the real Terrorists


omg Koyoma looks adorable in that pic!! =D
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Andromeda
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Posted 6/27/09


TAU historian, Prof. Shlomo Sand, wrote:
"No population remains pure over a period of thousands of years. But the chances that the Palestinians are descendants of the ancient Judaic people are much greater than the chances that you or I are its descendents. The first Zionists, up until the Arab Revolt [1936-9], knew that there had been no exiling, and that the Palestinians were descended from the inhabitants of the land. They knew that farmers don't leave until they are expelled. Even Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, the second president of the State of Israel, wrote in 1929 that, 'the vast majority of the peasant farmers do not have their origins in the Arab conquerors, but rather, before then, in the Jewish farmers who were numerous and a majority in the building of the land.'"


* Haaretz
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28 / M / Azusa, CA (666 IN...
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Posted 6/28/09
israil should not exist.

I truly despise its existence.




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