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Regarding Crunchyroll and the visions of anime in 2009.
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Posted 11/19/08 , edited 11/22/08
Please people, put your large "quotes" in "spoiler" tags to stop the flooding. Thank you.



!!!Welcome to Anime!!! Yay!!!

Sorry, I did that on purpose.

A couple of concepts in the spoiler for those interested.



First of all:




To mods: yes, there is a thread created by DomFortress with the anime subculture in the title. No, it is not closely related to anime subculture as a fact of information, but as a personal opinion of that user. This is not a duplicate.


My knowledge of the matter was simply subjective in most cases up until a couple of weeks ago. But that doesn’t necessarily means we can stay ignorant about it for the rest of our lives.

This is not a conspiracy, or any kind of propaganda. People is free to express themselves, and people is free to have second opinions, and be aware of many things. That is called freedom of expression. So think about this warning before going to insult me. Also, I don't want to brainwash or impose my ideas or facts into others.


I took the liberty to ask for a good explanation of many people that have a certain degree of knowledge of the matter. I also took the liberty to put much information into a condensed few with the intention of easy understanding by the people.


Again, I work for no anime company, or anime site with any kind of loyalty towards any side. (anime companies, and fans.) If anybody else wants to contribute with information or opinions about the subject please feel free to do so. Also if you state an opinion with few words, but no objectiveness then support your opinion with objective facts at least. That said and since nobody else has the guts to post this, here we go:

Anime subculture: Does it even exist in our culture and continent?

It does in a way, and a certain degree, but instead of subculture I would call it “fanaticism.” The anime subculture started out in Japan and slowly spreading across the seas thanks to the internet by many yet small groups. However many people come out with the misconception of anime subculture as part of the internet anime needs of many of the fanatics, like many of our Crunchyrollers here.

The anime market started out like any other, except that it gained popularity within Japan pretty fast. It also came out to be even more popular thanks to some groups of fanatics across the world with the creation of “fan subbing groups,” later denominated by some individuals as criminals.

Whether their motives were noble, or mischievous, people can’t deny the fact that anime wouldn’t have been accessible to the rest of the world thanks to those groups. Been called criminals, or popular heroes; these people are normal people like you, and me with lives of their own, problems of their own, and many things to do other than come online to waste some time.

These people used their time, and effort to do what the industry never did. Well that goes beyond the point. There was not anime in our continent other than some extremely popular anime that came from Japan thanks to some visionaries, some individuals, and companies that saw an opportunity in our market. Such is the case of Dragon ball, Sailor moon, and Astroboy. Nobody can’t deny they weren’t wrong because any game (for example) with the names Dragon, and ball in it sells like it was canned sex.

I am not justifying the actions of the fansubbers because they weren’t obviously doing something good, but they didn’t commit a crime. However they offered an entertainment drug to us, the wrong audience.

So what is the main audience of anime back then and up to the twentieth century? The answer is simple and logical: Japan. The public to whom it was oriented was Japan itself. A public that assimilated anime as part of their lives as time passed by and soon enough made out of it what people tend to call ‘the anime subculture.’

Subculture(anime) that also carried many bad things within. It was the origin of Hentai; word that literally means ‘abnormality’ referring to sex, or perversion. Basically a part of the subculture known as anime, the hentai refers to the sexually explicit group of pornographic material such as video games, anime and manga.

All popularized thanks to the many Otakus, that not generalizing, are many individuals who idolize such perverted part of the anime subculture. Not all Otakus do that of course, however it is true that many do. All thanks to anime as well. Another example of how something good can be turned into something bad.

Otakus: are overly obsessive fans, but nothing like that has been seen in America our Europe like it is frequent in Japan. Many of them obsessed with hetai, lolicon and many other perversions that have nothing to do with our culture in the way of animation. Do you think it is logic to want to have sex with anime children? I don’t. Otakus, referring to hentai are basically other product of the anime subculture in the people. So much that hentai itself is a subculture of the anime subculture.

So what about anime in our continent? To be clear: anime subculture doesn’t really exist in our culture. Why? You don’t see anime characters in the package of your instant food, do you? (Example in the context of our culture.)

Anime might be considered as a subculture (it means a derivate of their culture) by Japanese people, but not by anybody else. That is simply the idea of certain individuals who wish to popularize, and promote it for purely monetary purposes.

Yes, I am pointing out at the anime studios. Clearly like anybody else who has the balls to say it. It’s sad, but it’s the truth. I however have to admit they are doing something to probably change that image now, but those might be simple appearances.

The anime industry never saw us as a potential market, but until the late nineties. They also never saw us with the same eyes they see Japanese audiences simply because we are not an audience, we are a market.

What does this means? This means they are viewers, we are consumers. They offer anime via broadcasting in Japan. They offer us expensive DVD sets that are not only poor in quality, and packed with useless material (who wants shitty dubs? Another excuse to make us think that is why it is so expensive), but also old anime from five to seven years before.

The anime we get, and since the beginning did get was that anime that stopped been that popular in Japan. Why not squeeze some more money out of it? "Let’s sell it in the American market as DVDs; afterall they never saw these series.” Can you imagine that scenario? It sounds pretty real, and logically possibly business-talking.

People interested with anime (in America) are merely fans, but not die-hard fans like Otakus in Japan. Otakus in America are simply fanatics. People who like anime, and some others that think they can’t live without it. (Another misconception of the supposed assimilation, and strength-gaining anime subculture in America.) But you know what? We can live without anime, because it is not part of our culture. It is just part of the Japanese culture, and no matter how hard some people try they will never be Japanese.

Another thing to thank for to anime, huh? Wappaneses. (Look for Wappanese in the forum’s search engine for further detail.)

The insistence of certain individuals to make us think anime is part of our lives is only backed by the many children who made anime a way of escaping real life. For X, or Y reasons they think of anime as an alternate world. I’ve seen the many messages in these forums claiming how much they wouldn’t want to live, or would die out of the lack of anime. People wondering if they could be anime characters, people expressing their ‘love’ towards anime characters.

“Are anime guys better than real life guys?”
“Are anime girls better than real life girls?”
“What if you lived in an anime world?”


Are they for real? There is a limit to fanaticism, not to say to reality and fantasy. It seems anime has crossed the thin line between anime, and reality. Especially in children who delude more often thanks to the obsessive need of anime in their lives.

Now there is the matter, and question (although this thread is not specific about it.) I believe it is necessary to point out: Crunchyroll seems to be ready for a change, and become a commercial site for anime. Fansubbed anime won’t be accepted as of January 8th, 2009.

People should just make to that idea, and accept it. Also, the options in anime will get thinner. People will only get the anime of those studios partner of CR in this campaign.
This also make me question this to the star users, and the ones that contribute(monetarily) to this site. Are you, star users, keep on contributing to this Crunchyroll even if your favorite shows aren’t allowed here?

Let me elaborate. Are you willing to pay for old anime, and just a few new ones? (The ones of the partner companies, since the non-licensed anime fansubbed will be removed)

People don’t have to answer if they don’t want to. I myself am not a star user, not because I want, but because I can’t afford to pay it when I barely watch some anime now, and when anime will become more expensive than a pair of shoes. But this is subjective. I first came to Crunchyroll simply because of Gundam00 which they removed later. Okay, I didn’t complain about Gundam00 been removed. Now I am here just because of the forums, and one of my favorite groups.

Potential consumers or not? We fans are potential consumers in the eyes of anime industry, but as somebody else pointed it out in another forum: "a potential consumer isn’t obliged to buy anime products, furthermore you are not obliged to buy anime products, more in specific anime DVD or games if you don’t even know what you are buying."

Some people will allege about preview sites, and review sites. But this if actually funny, because 95% of those sites are running, or supported/sponsored by anime companies.

Hell even our most trustworthy “anime news network” ANN is been supported by anime companies. How can we believe in that? (This is just my opinion, don't get paranoid about that.)

Or are they going to say (anime preview, review sites): “Oh no! Anime X isn’t exactly good. It uses a certain hype to get more adepts, but the plot is actually generic. It has poor characters, and horrible art. Please don’t support it by buying it.” Of course not.

Ultimately we end up buying a DVD boxset, which front art is actually good; the description sounds okay, but once we watch it turns out to be total shit. What can we do about it? It costs us a month of savings just to realized how crappy it was.

I have imported many DVDs, and VHS of Dragon ball Z, and Saint Seiya. I paid them off with my savings and hard work. I believe real fans, and I am talking about the ones that can afford it do that just do it. But I wouldn’t have done so without watching the product first. Why did I buy those DVDs/VHSs? Because it was the only anime we had at hand since many, many years at least in my case. I wouldn’t have bought some weird anime that I don’t know a thing about just to realize how bad it was after watching it.

Especially with the economy in our continent; not just the United States of America (since almost the entire continent depends on the economy of the superpower of our continent.) How is it like to going to venture into the fanaticism of hardcore anime: the anime subculture, if it is going to be more expensive than what you, or your parents can afford?

Sure this will help the anime, and more precisely the Japanese economy, but not our economy. I am not saying you can’t and you shouldn’t. I am simply stating some facts that you need to know before accepting anime 100% sure of it. (As a subculture, again.)

This takes me back to the otakus: the original ones from Japan. They spend thousands in anime figures, posters, t-shirts, clocks, plushies, you name it. But what are those goods for? They just waste space in your room? What? Will you exhibit your collection of expensive PVC dolls to your friends? Then what?

Maybe anime is a proud subculture in Japan and Asia, but our culture seems to contradict the possible integration of anime into our lives.

What will the anime industry do to promote anime as a subculture of good things?
How will they?
What good things can we get out of the anime subculture other than a way to waste money?
Why do they see us as lecherous beings; when it is clear that less than 15% of the profit comes out of anime itself?


Some of those questions…don’t expect them to be answered. Because the people involved with anime won’t answer them, and if they do, it will be subjective, believe me. This anime carries bad things within even if we are too blind, or stubborn to accept it. It also has a couple of good things, subjectively talking, entertainment, and a way to distraction but nothing more.

It was said several times and explained: how much anime studios spend, and how few they get in return. But as an adept of economy, and a former student of such matter in college and with a personal teacher, I can tell how things are (From my point of view). Because they are not different in the anime industry.

(This is not the case of anime in America, but Japan)

Anime studios produce it-> they sell or offer it to T.V. stations-> sponsors pay for their product to be announced or advertised during the show->people watch the show and the ads->people buy the products advertised in the anime show = Everybody earns money.
It’s stupid to blame it on the low sales of DVDs. Also it is stupid to say the sales and anime itself depends on the market outside Japan. We are/were not their market, again, it was Japan itself. If we were their market then anime would be aired in Japanese, English, Spanish, etc. But no, we were just outsiders.


Now that we are potential consumers (thanks to the popularity of anime online due the fansubs) we are seen as lecherous people, or potential consumers, only now.

In conclusion, and this last paragraph been subjective (my own opinion.) There is no place for anime subculture in our culture as in the way that it will be recognized as one(subculture) by others than otakus, or wappanese themselves, the real world. It might have a place online; a place that is dark and not many people will be willing to be part of. A place where just a selected bunch will enjoy life the best way they can, or simply waste their time since it is their own life. But not in our society like it is in Japan’s society. Our original culture, politics, and morals are different from the Eastern.

Opinions, points of view? Feel free to discuss.

Excuse my lack of googleness, leave that to the trolls.









For those questioning "why should I listen this guy?"
Here is my answer: You don't have to listen to me if you don't want to, but people is meant to know other opinions on the matter.

Of course there are always those who stand still on one side, and one opinion trying to oppose it into others. For those willing to label me, insult me, and even accuse me, here are some of my answers:

Posted 11/19/08
I read through that and didn't find much that I disagreed with. It's actually pretty interesting to see someone patient enough to spend the time to type out their full opinion. I enjoyed reading the op
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Posted 11/19/08
An interesting perspective to take on things.

One thing to consider as a reverse perspective is how American media impacts other nations. Movies and music are released on an international basis in countries such as Japan. It would be reasonable to assume that anime, being a media designed for entertainment as well, could hold a similar if not lesser presence, but for that to occur many things would have to change with the industry. The primary being the studios creating anime aimed for a western audience in mind. You can see this to an extent, but the studios don't seem to have the muscle that American movie studios have to permeate their product.

In regard to subculture, I would disagree that there isn't an anime subculture that exists in the west, but I don't think you can look it as being the same entity as that of Japan. Its like trying to compare American Pop music to Japanese Pop. They have similarities, but the way the cultures perceive figures such as idols and the importance of music differs (although how much it varies is arguable and definitely shrinking).
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Posted 11/19/08
Interesting, I support you on 90% of your long speech 10% was just straight up lost in my thoughts so don't worry about the 10%. It's nice to see someone who gets anime and how they change over time. Anime influencing the Western part of the world.. I don't think that's gonna happen. Unless it actually catches the peoples attention. Your right on some parts but some is just left dangling with opinions, half solely based on bias-speech. One more thing Wikipedia, bad for researching, anyone can edit the article and put some B.S in it.
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21 / M / Canada eh
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Posted 11/19/08
lol couldn't u put that in a spoiler bar? ur post was HUGE! but i agree with u and really? cr is gonna take off subbed anime?
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M / In Memphis, with...
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Posted 11/19/08

zero-shinji wrote:

Interesting, I support you on 90% of your long speech 10% was just straight up lost in my thoughts so don't worry about the 10%. It's nice to see someone who gets anime and how they change over time. Anime influencing the Western part of the world.. I don't think that's gonna happen. Unless it actually catches the peoples attention. Your right on some parts but some is just left dangling with opinions, half solely based on bias-speech. One more thing Wikipedia, bad for researching, anyone can edit the article and put some B.S in it.


I am sorry I didn't have a dictionary at hand. I am aware wikipedia is not a reliable source for information, but the concepts of certain terms are accurate for all I know.
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29 / F / Paradise⌒☆
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Posted 11/19/08
I don't find the cosplay picture amusing
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Posted 11/19/08

HayatellAyasaki wrote:


zero-shinji wrote:

Interesting, I support you on 90% of your long speech 10% was just straight up lost in my thoughts so don't worry about the 10%. It's nice to see someone who gets anime and how they change over time. Anime influencing the Western part of the world.. I don't think that's gonna happen. Unless it actually catches the peoples attention. Your right on some parts but some is just left dangling with opinions, half solely based on bias-speech. One more thing Wikipedia, bad for researching, anyone can edit the article and put some B.S in it.


I am sorry I didn't have a dictionary at hand. I am aware wikipedia is not a reliable source for information, but the concepts of certain terms are accurate for all I know.


Hey no problems its not like I'm mad or something. I got a dictionary and encyclopedia installed in my computer :P. I love technology ; from the way I talk you should now I'm a tech-nerd when it comes to computers. They got a encyclopedia at ask.com, I don't know if they have anime listed in there or not. You still make some good points about anime though. P.S right now I'm in a argument with DomFortress.... He is a cocky, immature, 30 yrs old hypocrite. He has no respect for others...My opinion... Somehow he hates me and started a dumb 2-day argument in another forum
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Posted 11/19/08
Not being rude but you were only restating the obvious though. How are we, the none Japanese, the wrong audience? You stated that Japan was the target audience of anime because Japan is 'A public that assimilated anime as part of their lives as time passed by and soon enough made out of it what people tend to call ‘the anime subculture.’ should that not apply to us as well?

Anime subculture does not exist in other continent because 'You don’t see anime characters in the package of your instant food, do you?' - Maybe because Instant food is not really the main products of other continents/country. You may not see anime in packages of instant food but you see Disney characters in almost all types of products.

'Otakus: are overly obsessive fans, but nothing like that has been seen in America our Europe' - I won't be generalizing like this now. Maybe not as many as in Japan but I do know that there could be one or a few.

I can't really say much about those business thing since I'm not knowledgeable in those.
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Posted 11/19/08
It makes me want to commit Suppuku. I just hope they can get much better anime later on I'll be willing to come back then.
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Posted 11/19/08
I dont get it
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26 / M / Chicago
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Posted 11/19/08
You said fan subbers do nothing illegal. Technically the act of subbing its self is not illegal, yes, but the second they distribute copyrighted material, in this case the anime, they are. See: The Berne Convention, of which both the US and Japan are members of. The newest anime that could possibly be in the public domain under the Convention would have been made in 1958, if Japan has no extensions in place. We're talking first Astro Boy, Kimba the White Lion/Jungle Emperor Leo and Sally the Witch here. On otaku, otaku are not simply anime fans, but people who are overly obsessed with any hobby, though they are more often associated with anime. So it's not that we don't have otaku, we just call them dorks, weirdos, geeks, jocks, whatever. These are the people it became popular with, the people who were already thought of as weird. That stigma combined with the general shadiness of early fansubs and the VHS scene scared off a lot of what could've been a potential market. You just have to look at the success of movies like Akira or anything Studio Ghibli makes, or of shows like Robotech, Voltron and the like to see that anime could have been a success in America. Cheap dubbing and late releases over here is the result of the failure of anime to catch on in America, not the cause, in my opinion.
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Posted 11/19/08
TL;DR

could you just put it in a nutshell on how this concerns us members?
Posted 11/19/08
meh, tl;dr but im sure it was good
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M / Crapsack World
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Posted 11/19/08 , edited 11/19/08
Quite informative... The OP delivered a great speech and I couldn't agree more about it especially about ANN. I rather put my trust on some business mags like Forbes and Businessweek than to listen to ANN. And another thing, I only see news about major anime corporations but I rarely see any official reports about small-medium size anime studios.
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