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Some thoughts about free will and god
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Posted 11/25/08 , edited 11/25/08

YouAreDumb wrote:


madlibbs wrote:

"If God is morally constrained to produce a greater good from evil that is allowed to occur than the good that would be produced by stopping it then why should we make any effort to stop evil?"

What if the fact that humans try to prevent the evil is the greater good?
Why is that good? It forces humans to be in scary situations and causes suffering needlessly.



Or that the evil makes people greater appreciate good?
Good can be appreciated by people anyway. Knowing that evil things *could* happen is enough to be happy things are good. This is why we are usually happy even though we have not experienced such situations. However, if this is not so so go ahead and allow evil things for the greater good. You have given a reason to let the rape occur.






Or, in this particular case, what if the compassion that people would feel towards the rape victim is the greater good? What if one person feels compassion toward that person, and expresses that compassion by doing something good for someone else?
Again, let the rape happen. You don't get it-if god lets these things happen for the reasons you mention we should allow them to occur. That was the point of my second argument. Anyway, in th example you give the rape victim is used as a means to an end. Her good if sacrificed for another persons good. Do you support using people as a means to an end?






What would happen if God did intervene? It would solve the immediate problem (the rape would not occur), but it would lead to other problems. If God decided to intervene in every evil situation, humans would no longer have free will And there is a big difference between God taking away free will (even if only temporarily) and human beings taking away free will.
What is it? I don't see a difference. God can not allow evil to protect free will if the actualization of evil itself takes away free will. Nor does god taking part actually remove free will. God could simply cause a magic force field to surrounds you when you tried to do something evil that would stop the effects of that action from happening magically, but not violate your desire or ability to commit that action. Your ability to cause harm is gone, but not your free will itself.






Let's assume that evil can serve a higher purpose and that "God is morally justified in allowing evil to achieve a greater unknown purpose". It is still our duty as moral beings to oppose evil, since we really don't know if the evil is God's plan or if it's a test.
If god can only let it happen for the greater good then logically all must be part of his plan. Otherwise he is allowing it to occur for no good purpose, which is not something the god in our example would do if he is morally justified. The mere fact we are not going to step in is enough to prove that god has a purpose for allowing the evil act to occur. So your argument fails.




If God really wants an evil act to occur, it will occur, regardless of human intervention. For example, if I see someone about to be hit by a car, and I save him/her, then maybe it was a test of whether I would risk my life to save another human being,
God has no need to test you. He already knows if you would or not because he is omniscience. He knows how you will act in any possible situation that can arise.




or maybe it was God's will that that person die, in which case God will still have ample opportunity to kill him/her by another means. Even if it was God's will that the person die, assuming of course that God is truly benevolent, God could not blame me for trying to save the person.

Sure he could. God can blame people for stopping him from fulfilling his purposes, and does so often in the bible.


1. It causes suffering, but that doesn't mean it causes suffering needlessly.

2. You cannot be thankful for everything all the time. For example, a person could live his entire life without being thankful for his arms. But if his sister has one or both of her arms amputated, seeing the suffering that she is experiencing will make him thankful that he still has both of his arms. Knowing that evil things could happen is not always enough to be happy that things are good. Humans have a tendency to forget things over time. They forget about being thankful that the last evil thing did not happen to them, and need to be reminded again.

3. I have given a potential reason for God to let the rape occur. Other people, as you mentioned in your hypothetical situation, were not present, and therefore could not do anything to stop the rape, regardless of whether or not they would've or should've. If God lets things like this happen for the reasons previously mentioned, that means that he/she intended those specific things to happen. It doesn't mean that God intends all potential evil things to happen. I assume that you will then argue that if these reasons cause the greater good, then evil should occur whenever possible, to which I say that if thousands of people are raped every day, it will become so commonplace that it may not occur to others to feel compassion for them. If you've ever seen some of the commercials on tv about the starving children, you know that watching one of those commercials may elicit compassion, but watching those commercials over and over again makes it less likely to elicit compassion. As for your question, I support using people as a means to an end under certain circumstances.

4. How would such a force field work? If I tried to rob a bank, would the force field stop me from commiting the robbery? Or would it stop me from taking the money? If it stops me from committing the robbery, it does violate my ability to commit that action. If it stops me from taking the money, then I no longer have a reason to rob the bank, so the equation is changed.

5. As I said, it could be a test. And I'm not really sure what you mean by this sentence: "The mere fact we are not going to step in is enough to prove that god has a purpose for allowing the evil act to occur." Could you rephrase or be more specific?

6. Assuming his/her omniscience, God already knows how I will spend every minute of my life and why - everything I do, everything I think, etc. And yet I'm still alive and living this predetermined life, when I could just as easily never have existed. From this I must conclude that, for whatever reason, God wants to test me.

7. A benevolent, morally justified God could not blame me for stopping him/her from fulfilling his/her purposes unless he/she told me specifically what those purposes were. And you cannot use the bible as objective proof of anything, as belief in the bible is subjective. If one of the assumptions in this hypothetical situation is that the bible is absolutely and literally true, then the situation itself is flawed, because it presupposes that God condones sexism and cannibalism, among other things. I don't think you could reconcile that with the idea of a benevolent, morally justified God.

Off-topic question: Were you either very short or bullied (whether physically/mentally/emotionally) as a child?
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Posted 11/25/08 , edited 11/25/08

madlibbs wrote:



1. It causes suffering, but that doesn't mean it causes suffering needlessly.
All dictators had their "reasons". The question is of course whether these (undefined and unspecified) reasons are morally justified. In the case of an (allegedly) omnipotent being, a greater good never justifies suffering, because it could be reached without suffering as well.




2. You cannot be thankful for everything all the time. For example, a person could live his entire life without being thankful for his arms. But if his sister has one or both of her arms amputated, seeing the suffering that she is experiencing will make him thankful that he still has both of his arms. Knowing that evil things could happen is not always enough to be happy that things are good. Humans have a tendency to forget things over time. They forget about being thankful that the last evil thing did not happen to them, and need to be reminded again.
In any case, there are other ways to remind him that his arms could be gone, such as a movie using fake people created by god. ......... If humans require suffering in order to appreciate being happy, then how will they be happy in heaven which contains no suffering? If they will forget things as you claim then they will lose all ability to appreciate heaven. So if heaven exists it must be possible for humans as they currently exist, or in some other state altered by god, to appreciate good without suffering, or heaven or any sort of afterlife without suffering is hollow and meaningless.






3. I have given a potential reason for God to let the rape occur. Other people, as you mentioned in your hypothetical situation, were not present, and therefore could not do anything to stop the rape, regardless of whether or not they would've or should've. If God lets things like this happen for the reasons previously mentioned, that means that he/she intended those specific things to happen. It doesn't mean that God intends all potential evil things to happen.
God knows all events so if they happen he can not have intended them not to happen, unless someone changed what he knew would happen, so he is no longer all knowing.



I assume that you will then argue that if these reasons cause the greater good, then evil should occur whenever possible, to which I say that if thousands of people are raped every day, it will become so commonplace that it may not occur to others to feel compassion for them.
Then that is not the good god is seeking. If god stops evil when it has no purpose and allows those rapes then he thinks they serve a purpose. Maybe the raped women will come to faith because of her ordeal, which would save her from hell and so is the greatest possible good for her. So still allow them.





If you've ever seen some of the commercials on tv about the starving children, you know that watching one of those commercials may elicit compassion, but watching those commercials over and over again makes it less likely to elicit compassion. As for your question, I support using people as a means to an end under certain circumstances.
Then you and I disagree fundamentally about the value of human dignity. That is fine as long as you admit you are ok with human persons being reduced to objects, which you did.





4. How would such a force field work? If I tried to rob a bank, would the force field stop me from commiting the robbery? Or would it stop me from taking the money? If it stops me from committing the robbery, it does violate my ability to commit that action. If it stops me from taking the money, then I no longer have a reason to rob the bank, so the equation is changed.
It lets you go through with the actions as I said, but there is nothing that happens in the end. In the example you mention you will be able to rob the bank but the people you are trying to harm will magically heal like wolverine and and the money magically return to the safe.





5. As I said, it could be a test. And I'm not really sure what you mean by this sentence: "The mere fact we are not going to step in is enough to prove that god has a purpose for allowing the evil act to occur." Could you rephrase or be more specific?
Sure. The god I posited in my OP only allows morality for a higher purpose. One such purpose can be claimed to be that people will intervene and stop the evil, however, if we are not going to stop the evil god would already know that since he is all knowing. Since he knows that then any evil situation which happens where we do not intervene, and god also allows to happen, must serve the greater good or it would not be allowed to occur by god.





6. Assuming his/her omniscience, God already knows how I will spend every minute of my life and why - everything I do, everything I think, etc. And yet I'm still alive and living this predetermined life, when I could just as easily never have existed. From this I must conclude that, for whatever reason, God wants to test me.
That does not follow. God setting you up in a predetermined life does not mean he wanted to test you at all. It means he set you up in a pre determined life.





7. A benevolent, morally justified God could not blame me for stopping him/her from fulfilling his/her purposes unless he/she told me specifically what those purposes were.
You haven't read the bible. The jews wiped out the people in Cannaan whose ancestors had settled there without telling them it was because god decried they were to have the land. God also sends people to hell who have never heard of Jesus. There are other examples.


And you cannot use the bible as objective proof of anything, as belief in the bible is subjective.
Yes, but if you are a Christian you can not argue against its use, and if you're a Muslim I will use the Qu'ran. If you're a deist your religion is pointless then my earlier arguments will suffice I suppose.



If one of the assumptions in this hypothetical situation is that the bible is absolutely and literally true, then the situation itself is flawed, because it presupposes that God condones sexism and cannibalism, among other things. I don't think you could reconcile that with the idea of a benevolent, morally justified God.
We are in total agreement. What is you religious affiliation (if any)?



Off-topic question: Were you either very short or bullied (whether physically/mentally/emotionally) as a child?
No

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Posted 11/25/08
God made us perfect =] but he also gave us free will. We made sin, not God. God knows what will happen, but He also lets us make those choices. Jesus loves you.
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Posted 11/25/08

digs wrote:

God made us perfect =] but he also gave us free will. We made sin, not God. God knows what will happen, but He also lets us make those choices. Jesus loves you.


Yeah yeah do you have any proof that your god is the right god, there is 10,000 religions out there, what makes your god more real than theres. From my studies, the Christian religion is one of the least logical, and one of the most dark/evil religions I have ever read up on. You must be so proud of your jealous angry war god.
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Posted 11/25/08 , edited 11/25/08
A will is a desire or a choice. but it's not required that you get always what you will.
so the victim in your example surely had a will, maybe to save him/herself, and he/she acted to accomplish that but he failed .


There are a will, a guidance,and a destiny .

->The will: is for all humans. It's the choice to do any thing but this doesn't necessary mean accomplish it always.

------->The guidance: is from God,even though you have a will, the guidance make you choose to do good, and prevent you from doing evil. It's not for all humans but only whom God will.

------------>The destiny is all what you did,do and will do in all your life and what you will gain after your death.


Yes, God give us a will, Yes He do what He will(so you ask why He not prevent the evil), but this life is a test for us, hence it comes with unwanted/wanted, and evil/good things, so me, you and others; what will we choose? How will we act? .


Can someone change his destiny ? so he can receive God's guidance?

Yes, he can through the sincere prayers.



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Posted 11/25/08

digs wrote:

God made us perfect =]
This is impossible. A perfect being must remain perfect because if there were two perfect beings (say one named Adam and one named Eve) that existed then the one that become unperfect would not have been as good as being and remaining perfect. Perfection entails that there is no one better- that you are *perfect*.




but he also gave us free will. We made sin, not God. God knows what will happen, but He also lets us make those choices. Jesus loves you.
Stop your spam and address the specific points raised in my OP or GTFO.
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Posted 11/25/08 , edited 11/25/08

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


digs wrote:

God made us perfect =] but he also gave us free will. We made sin, not God. God knows what will happen, but He also lets us make those choices. Jesus loves you.


Yeah yeah do you have any proof that your god is the right god, there is 10,000 religions out there, what makes your god more real than theres. From my studies, the Christian religion is one of the least logical, and one of the most dark/evil religions I have ever read up on. You must be so proud of your jealous angry war god.


He has personally touched my life, the historicity if the Bible is accurate. And the Holy Spirit has worked in my life. You can call God a "war god" but that is an example of His Justice and Power. God is Merciful, God judges, but He also shows mercy and forgives those who turn and repent. We can choose to focus on judgment, or we can see the big picture and understand the judgment and see our need for our own repentance and experience God's AMAZING Love for us. It's a feeling I wouldn't trade for anything, because deep down inside, it is what all people want yet try to fill with other things.

And why must a perfect being remain perfect? Isn't something perfect because it maintains perfection? Can something not become perfect through loosing imperfections? (No one but Jesus Christ has truly lived and died a perfect and sinless life) All people have sinned, and we are already imperfect, we can correct our imperfections by turning from them and being forgiven by the One who is Truly Perfect.
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Posted 11/25/08

digs wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


digs wrote:

God made us perfect =] but he also gave us free will. We made sin, not God. God knows what will happen, but He also lets us make those choices. Jesus loves you.


Yeah yeah do you have any proof that your god is the right god, there is 10,000 religions out there, what makes your god more real than theres. From my studies, the Christian religion is one of the least logical, and one of the most dark/evil religions I have ever read up on. You must be so proud of your jealous angry war god.


He has personally touched my life, the historicity if the Bible is accurate. And the Holy Spirit has worked in my life. You can call God a "war god" but that is an example of His Justice and Power. God is Merciful, God judges, but He also shows mercy and forgives those who turn and repent. We can choose to focus on judgment, or we can see the big picture and understand the judgment and see our need for our own repentance and experience God's AMAZING Love for us. It's a feeling I wouldn't trade for anything, because deep down inside, it is what all people want yet try to fill with other things.

And why must a perfect being remain perfect? Isn't something perfect because it maintains perfection? Can something not become perfect through loosing imperfections? (No one but Jesus Christ has truly lived and died a perfect and sinless life) All people have sinned, and we are already imperfect, we can correct our imperfections by turning from them and being forgiven by the One who is Truly Perfect.


LOL! Read A history book you find its not very accurate, I have heard that comment before. So I have check it out. You find most of the bible is taken from stories passed down from pagan religions, that includes the story about Jesus.

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Posted 11/25/08
well, you may think it isn't accurate or that it is based off of paganism, but I have witnessed God first hand, His Spirit is real and Jesus is my personal Savior. I have read things from history and archeology that support the Bible, I have seen blatant attempts at people trying to make Christianity based on paganism yet can't refute the arguments against it and are forced to rely on faulty info (like when people claim horus and Jesus are the same because of Dec 25, The Bible never says Jesus' birthday, and most theologians believe Jesus to have not been born on Dec 25. Dec 25 as Christmas was something Constantine did to put in place of a pagan holidays) you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.
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This debate is pointless. In reality, there is no 'good' and 'evil', there is only momentary pleasure intermittent with continual suffering. Of which in the end are both emptiness, and only perceived as their misinterpreted forms as a result of our shortsightedness and misguided self-importance.

Reality cares not for your pitiful suffering and pleasures, it is your tainted perception which perceive reality to be in tantrums of colorful degrees of justice. Reality cares for only one thing and that thing's name is progression. 'Good' and 'evil' are merely consequences of that progression, there are no reasons to justify them, nor is there any need to justify them. Victims of their inner demons of pride and desire began calling their fulfillment 'good' and their suffering 'evil, but in truth they are doing nothing but performing the utmost act of sacrilege to the true ideals of good and evil.

Ideals defined as "constituting or existing only in the form of an idea or mental image or conception".
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Posted 11/26/08

digs wrote:

well, you may think it isn't accurate or that it is based off of paganism, but I have witnessed God first hand, His Spirit is real and Jesus is my personal Savior. I have read things from history and archeology that support the Bible, I have seen blatant attempts at people trying to make Christianity based on paganism yet can't refute the arguments against it and are forced to rely on faulty info (like when people claim horus and Jesus are the same because of Dec 25, The Bible never says Jesus' birthday, and most theologians believe Jesus to have not been born on Dec 25. Dec 25 as Christmas was something Constantine did to put in place of a pagan holidays) you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.
It has nothing to do with the birthday its he fact its the same story. 12 disciples, healing the sick, curing the blind, betrayals, death and resurrection after 3 days.
There the same. (hard to come up with the Birth date to a guy who most likely never was real. )

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My point was, people twist the facts around to try and make Christianity look like a copy. Th truth is, horus had 4 friends (not disciples) and the only mention of horus dying was when he was eaten by crocs in the Nile. Then his mom Isis commanded the crocs to spit him up and she gave him life again. The stories are not the same, people twist them.
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digs wrote:

My point was, people twist the facts around to try and make Christianity look like a copy. Th truth is, horus had 4 friends (not disciples) and the only mention of horus dying was when he was eaten by crocs in the Nile. Then his mom Isis commanded the crocs to spit him up and she gave him life again. The stories are not the same, people twist them.


Stories from the life of Horus had been circulating for centuries before Jesus birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE). If any copying occurred by the writers of the Egyptian or Christian religions, it was the followers of Jesus who incorporated into his biography the myths and legends of Horus.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen046.html

"Osiris, I am your son, come to glorify your soul, and to give you even more power." - Horus, (Book of the Dead, Ch. 173)

"Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once." - Jesus, (John 13:31-32)

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god gave men DICK an chick PUSSY what do u think he what us to do with it?
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Posted 11/27/08

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


digs wrote:

My point was, people twist the facts around to try and make Christianity look like a copy. Th truth is, horus had 4 friends (not disciples) and the only mention of horus dying was when he was eaten by crocs in the Nile. Then his mom Isis commanded the crocs to spit him up and she gave him life again. The stories are not the same, people twist them.


Stories from the life of Horus had been circulating for centuries before Jesus birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE). If any copying occurred by the writers of the Egyptian or Christian religions, it was the followers of Jesus who incorporated into his biography the myths and legends of Horus.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen046.html

"Osiris, I am your son, come to glorify your soul, and to give you even more power." - Horus, (Book of the Dead, Ch. 173)

"Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once." - Jesus, (John 13:31-32)



Does this mean that those two quotes go hand in hand? No, things can be similar but that does not mean that they have been taken from each other. I doubt that John (who wrote that Gospel) being a fisherman before Jesus called him, would have known that much about ancient Egyptian writings. And look at what the verses are saying. Horus says that he is the son of Osiris and that he had come to glorify Osiris and give him more power. Let's look at the verse from the Bible in a more full context.


Jhn 13:26 Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon.
Jhn 13:27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him,
Jhn 13:28 but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.
Jhn 13:29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor.
Jhn 13:30 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.
Jhn 13:31 When he was gone, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him.
Jhn 13:32 If God is glorified in him, [fn] God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.
Jhn 13:33 "My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you
cannot come.
Jhn 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
Jhn 13:35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
Jhn 13:36 Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later."
Jhn 13:37 Peter asked, "Lord, why can't I follow you now? I will lay down my life for you."
Jhn 13:38 Then Jesus answered, "Will you really lay down your life for me? I tell you the truth, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times!


In this setting Jesus is saying that God has been glorified through Him. Jesus is saying that because He Glorifies God, God will Glorify Him. Jesus is saying that He has Glorified God the Father, and that the Son (Jesus) shall be Glorified. He is saying this as He talks to the disciples during the Last Supper when He talks about who shall betray Him and that He shall die. He is saying that in His death on the cross, God will be Glorified. And through God being Glorified will Jesus be Glorified by God the Father. It also helps us further understand how God is Three in One (the Trinity) How Jesus says Jhn 10:30 I and the Father are one." There is unity between Jesus (God the Son) and God the Father. Horus is saying that he wants to glorify his father Osiris so that he will have more power. Jesus is saying that He will Glorify God the Father and that God the Father shall Glorify the Son. Not so that God can have more power (because He has complete power) but so that humankind may be forgiven of sins and establish a relationship with God. They may sound similar, but they do not mean the same thing, nor was the passage in John taken as a copy from what was written in that Egyptian book.
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