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Some thoughts about free will and god
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25 / F / England
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Posted 12/16/08
some people would argue that we have no free will in the first place we are all just predetermined, for example a man names john locke suggested that even if we believe we have free will everything we do is determined he puts forward the following example:
"a man is sitting in a locked room. He does not know the room is locked. He decides that he will stay in the locked room instead of choosing to leave. He may think he is making a free decision but in actual fact had he decided to leave the room he would have been unable to." thus he argues there is no such thing as free will.
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Posted 12/16/08

threnagyn wrote:

Again, try not to confuse the existance of a greater power with specific relgions. Its really ignorant to say, "theres no way Adam and Eve could have happened, so God must not exist". You do just that with assuming God's intentions and bringing up the Moses story. Just because one religion is bullsh*t does not mean theres no God. Thats like saying that atoms and molecules are not real because early philosophers interpretations of them were proved to be incorrect. F*ck politics? R you kidding? Are you some sort of dumbsh*t. Don't you understand that with so many people living, there would be no way to live without a government. We have reached a point that we cannot live off of an unorganized society, politics is a way of managing that. It may be corrupt, but its something we need. But little kids with their radical conspiracy theories and their marijuana don't understand that, do they. PEACE


What!? What the hell has politics done for the world except fuck it up. Look at america its fucked up cause of damn politics. Id actually rather lived in an organized society than one that only cares for gains. Your probably the kind of person who would live in a damn dictatorship and say oh we need this it helps! And you must be the dumb shit to believe that there is a god. Atoms and molecules can be proven to exist but god? No! there has been no sustainable proof that god exists except for a book that you and so many others whole heartedly believe in. Also im not assuming a damn thing with the moses story. God killed egyptians who had nothing to do with the jewish persecution so how is that assuming? Also im not no damn kid with theories and fucking weed. Get your shit straight.
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Posted 12/16/08 , edited 12/16/08

dice8 wrote:


threnagyn wrote:

Again, try not to confuse the existance of a greater power with specific relgions. Its really ignorant to say, "theres no way Adam and Eve could have happened, so God must not exist". You do just that with assuming God's intentions and bringing up the Moses story. Just because one religion is bullsh*t does not mean theres no God. Thats like saying that atoms and molecules are not real because early philosophers interpretations of them were proved to be incorrect. F*ck politics? R you kidding? Are you some sort of dumbsh*t. Don't you understand that with so many people living, there would be no way to live without a government. We have reached a point that we cannot live off of an unorganized society, politics is a way of managing that. It may be corrupt, but its something we need. But little kids with their radical conspiracy theories and their marijuana don't understand that, do they. PEACE


What!? What the hell has politics done for the world except fuck it up. Look at america its fucked up cause of damn politics. Id actually rather lived in an organized society than one that only cares for gains. Your probably the kind of person who would live in a damn dictatorship and say oh we need this it helps! And you must be the dumb shit to believe that there is a god. Atoms and molecules can be proven to exist but god? No! there has been no sustainable proof that god exists except for a book that you and so many others whole heartedly believe in. Also im not assuming a damn thing with the moses story. God killed egyptians who had nothing to do with the jewish persecution so how is that assuming? Also im not no damn kid with theories and fucking weed. Get your shit straight.


Ok bud, I never said I believed in God, I just think its ignorant to try to disprove him with weak and paradoxical arguments. And yea, our politicians are screwed up, but every type of organized society has some sort of politics. Even a tribe with an indian chief has a level of politics. To live without them is to live unorganized. Im sorry your a dumbshit who failed out of grammar school and never learned the definition of politics. Its really sad to see people out there that are that stupid at your age. Maybe now that you know that politics is involved in all sorts of organization and is a part of organization, you'll be less of a worthless piece of shit to society.

Now heres the definition
The art or science of government or governing, especially the governing of a political entity, such as a nation, and the administration and control of its internal and external affairs.
Political science.
The activities or affairs engaged in by a government, politician, or political party: "All politics is local" (Thomas P. O'Neill, Jr.) "Politics have appealed to me since I was at Oxford because they are exciting morning, noon, and night" (Jeffrey Archer).
The methods or tactics involved in managing a state or government: The politics of the former regime were rejected by the new government leadership. If the politics of the conservative government now borders on the repressive, what can be expected when the economy falters?
Posted 12/17/08 , edited 12/17/08
Well im back again and i want to thank threnagyn for his brilliant answers on this subject and everyone else for their belifes and ideas.
I also have a group about god and religion that looks on free will and god free will and heaven and alot of otehr things so pelase take a look >> http://www.crunchyroll.com/group/God_and_Religion?src=trail

on the subject of free will i came across this interesting text on the christian god please tell me your ideas on this, as a perosn who doesnt believe in god please fell free to say waht you like.

The Christian God is defined as a personal being who knows everything. According to Christians, personal beings have free will.

In order to have free will, you must have more than one option, each of which is avoidable. This means that before you make a choice, there must be a state of uncertainty during a period of potential: you cannot know the future. Even if you think you can predict your decision, if you claim to have free will, you must admit the potential (if not the desire) to change your mind before the decision is final.

A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty." It knows its choices in advance. This means that it has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore lacks free will. Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist.

Therefore, the Christian God does not exist.

Some people deny that humans have free will; but all Christians claim that God himself, "in three persons," is a free personal agent, so the argument holds.

Others will object that God, being all-powerful, can change his mind. But if he does, then he did not know the future in the first place. If he truly knows the future, then the future is fixed and not even God can change it. If he changes his mind anyway, then his knowledge was limited. You can't have it both ways: no being can be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

A more subtle objection is that God "knows" what he is going to do because he always acts in accordance with his nature, which does not diminish his free agency. God might claim, for example, that he will not tell a lie tomorrow--because he always tells the truth. God could choose outside of his nature, but he never does.

But what does "nature of God" mean? To have a nature is to have limits. The "nature" that restricts humans is our physical environment and our genetics; but the "nature" of a supernatural being must be something else. It is inappropriate to say that the "nature" of a being without limits bears the same relationship to the topic of free will that human nature does.

Free will requires having more than one option, a desire to choose, freedom to choose (lack of obstacles), power to accomplish the choice (strength and aptitude), and the potential to avoid the option. "Strength and aptitude" puts a limit on what any person is "free" to do. No human has the free will to run a one-minute mile, without mechanical aid. We are free to try, but we will fail. All of our choices, and our desires as well, are limited by our nature; yet we can still claim free will (those of us who do) because we don't know our future choices.

If God always acts in accordance with his nature (whatever that means), then he still must have more than one viable option that does not contradict his nature if he is to claim free will. Otherwise, he is a slave to his nature, like a robot, and not a free personal agent.

What would the word "option" mean to a being who created all options?

Some say that "free will" with God does not mean what it means with humans. But how are we to understand this? What conditions of free will would a Christian scrap in order to craft a "free agency" for God? Multiple options? Desire? Freedom? Power? Potential to avoid?

Perhaps desire could be jettisoned. Desire implies a lack, and a perfect being should lack nothing. But it would be a very strange "person" with no needs or desires. Desire is what prompts a choice in the first place. It also contributes to assessing whether the decision was reasonable. Without desire, choices are willy-nilly, and not true decisions at all. Besides, the biblical god expressed many desires.

No objection saves the Christian God: he does not exist. Perhaps a more modest deity can be imagined: one that is not both personal and all-knowing, both all-knowing and all-powerful, both perfect and free. But until a god is defined coherently, and then proven to exist with evidence and sound reasoning, it is sensible not to think that such a being exists.
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Posted 12/17/08
Haha fine have it your way you can stay ignorant for the rest of you life does not matter to me. Also I never failed grammer school or anything so i can be a worthless piece of shit to soceity just like you. So hey when the economy falters which is going to be soon then we'll be worthless pieces of shit to soceity together ^_^ have fun with your BS theories also for my age what your 20 so that makes you know so much. Honestly any argument i try to make with you is just going to end up being Bs so take care and live the rest of your life in ignorance like i will^_^
Posted 12/17/08
Well this issue is heating up a bit. No matter what anyone says their will always be Bs theories until some hard evidence is found for them to stand on unlike religion and god there is nothing. Whether you believe in god or not there will always be people looking for the truth its human nature to seek it out, religion can only survive for so long before we advance as a race to a point where the very notion of a god is silly. Humans have used religion and manipulated it to commit horrible crimes against humanity and held back out development as a race no wonder the earth is in hell right now, why keep something alive that does nothing but separate us from advancing to the future something no god will ever know

still if you disagree with me on this look bk at history and ask yoruself do we really want a repeat ?
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Posted 12/18/08

Nemesis_Tsuki wrote:

Well this issue is heating up a bit. No matter what anyone says their will always be Bs theories until some hard evidence is found for them to stand on unlike religion and god there is nothing. Whether you believe in god or not there will always be people looking for the truth its human nature to seek it out, religion can only survive for so long before we advance as a race to a point where the very notion of a god is silly. Humans have used religion and manipulated it to commit horrible crimes against humanity and held back out development as a race no wonder the earth is in hell right now, why keep something alive that does nothing but separate us from advancing to the future something no god will ever know

still if you disagree with me on this look bk at history and ask yoruself do we really want a repeat ?


personally i think your right , humans have used religion to do all sorts of horrible things it makes me sick just thinking about it , but humans have also used the concept of god for hope and courage and for some it's the only belief that keeps them from doing bad things so it has good parts to .....
Posted 12/18/08 , edited 12/18/08
Yep your right Psiho people have used god for hope and courage... but waht kind of hope?
Do you mean like the hope of life after death?
A meaning for our existence?

I know people like to think like that but if that’s what people hope for I think it’s bad, it’s better to have no hope than false hope in this world you need to be strong and find real reasons to hang on in life and live it to the fullest like the prospect of finding the love of your life having a child, making your dreams come true, sure you may not be able to do all of that but at least you have a real chance of it happening.

And I know a lot of people would say that the way the earth is now why bother? Well if we give up when the chips are down we would just be throwing away everything we have worked so hard to build and a race.
Right now although religion give people hope and courage that same hope can be used against others.



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Posted 12/18/08 , edited 12/18/08

Nemesis_Tsuki wrote:

yep your right Psiho people have used god for hope and courage... but waht kind of hope ?
do you mean like the hope of life after death ?
a meaning for our existance ?

i know people like to think like that but if thats what poepel hope for i think its bad, its better to have no hope than false hope in this world you need to be strong and find real reasons to hang on in life and live it to the fullist like the prospect of finding the love of your life hacing a child, making your dreams come ture, sure you amy not be able to do all of that but atleast you have a real chance of it happening.

And i know alot of poeple would say that the way the earth is now wahy bother ? well if we give up when the chips are down we would just be throwing away everyhitng we have worked so hard to build and a race.
right now although religion give people hope and courage that same hope can be used against othes.








again your absolutely right ... but there are people who aren't so strong like you ... who need to believe in something higher than them so that they could keep hanging on ...like when somebody dies people prefer to think hes in heaven and having a better life than the alternative that he's gone forever

Personally i believe in god , but not because i need a meaning for my life or a guarantee that i will go to heaven .. it just calms me to know that i'm not alone when times are hard or when i'm scared :)
Posted 12/18/08
your right Psiho in what your saying some people rant as strong and need something to hang onto to keep them going, but not everyone who believe in god are in it for that reason only a few genially need it to feel safe.

We all loose people who we love and care about I myself lost a family member a few weeks away form Christmas, we went to the funeral sat in the church and I really did feel alone like no one’s pain could ever be as great as mine, but in the big picture there is always someone who has suffered more than you and you could never understand how they could handle the pain.

and Psiho even though I don’t believe in god I can say that your reason to believe in him is a just and honest reason that everyone should have if they want to believe in god because your reason is totally selfless there are times where there is no one we can go to when we are scared so you must turn to god but if we do come together as a race and be there for each other, Psiho you will never be alone again
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Posted 12/18/08
i don't want to question god.
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