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Non-Religious people are more likely to be Intelligent than the religious.
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Posted 11/29/08 , edited 2/4/10
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=4EWyD34FxmI&feature=related

Non-Religious people are more likely to be Intelligent than the religious.
Rational minds have little need for Gods.?


Do you think thats true?
Why Or Why Not


National Academy of Sciences
Pull shows that 85% of the Top leading Scientist in there Field are atheist. (that was in 2006. That is a 8% higher than it was no more than 8 years ago.



According to a major study there’s a very strong correlation between atheism and societal health. Here are the most non-religious countries in the world, according to the findings:

1. Sweden
2. Vietnam
3. Denmark
4. Norway
5. Japan
6. Czech Republic
7. Finland
8. France
9. South Korea
10. Estonia

From the paper:

High levels of organic atheism are strongly correlated with high levels of societal health, such as low homicide rates, low poverty rates, low infant mortality rates, and low illiteracy rates, as well as high levels of educational attainment, per capita income, and gender equality. Most nations characterized by high degrees of individual and societal security have the highest rates of organic atheism, and conversely, nations characterized by low degrees of individual and societal security have the lowest rates of organic atheism. In some societies, particularly Europe, atheism is growing. However, throughout much of the world – particularly nations with high birth rates – atheism is barely discernible.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EWyD34FxmI&feature=related
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=l0cBIQk13lI&NR=1


The 2009 Global Peace Index has just been released. It's basically a ranking of how turbulent and warlike a country is.

They put it together by assessing 23 criteria, including foreign wars, internal conflicts, respect for human rights, the number of murders, the number of people in jail, the arms trade, and degrees of democracy (Guardian).

You can see a world map of peace at the Vision of Humanity website, and also take a look at country rankings for 2009, as well as earlier years.

New Zealand came top this year. Hmm, New Zealand is a pretty non-religious country. In fact, if you eyeball the rankings, the top few countries are all pretty non-religious.

What I've done in the figures here is to take data from the World Values Survey on the percentage of people in each country who say they are a committed atheist, and also on the percentage of people who say that they go to a religious service at least once a month.

Then I split the sample into two equal groups, based on their score on the Global Peace Index. The ones in the 'Peaceful' group are countries with a GPI score less than 1.8.

Sure enough, peaceful countries have more atheists and fewer regular worshippers. The difference is highly statistically significant (P=0.001 or less) - in other words it's real, not just a chance finding.

Now, there are several possible reasons for this. It could be that people living in turbulent countries turn to religion, or it could be that religion is not a good way to structure modern society. Or it could be that some other factor or combination of factors (democracy? free speech? education? government welfare?) generates citizens who are both peaceful and non-religious.

Whatever, it's another blow to the idea that secularization leads to social meltdown. Atheist countries are, in fact more peaceful.



The whole reason that correlations are illustrated is to SUGGEST/HINT/INFER causation.




Atheists are more intelligent, but does intelligence lead to atheism?

The Telegraph has picked up on a story (People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God, according to a new study) that was actually broken by Times Higher Education back in June (High IQ turns academics into atheists). I checked the journal - Intelligence - but the paper (although accepted) is still not yet published. But there is a word version of it on the web, so we can take a look to see what it actually says.

Essentially the authors (chief among them Richard Lynn, who has some rather controversial views on race and intelligence) have put together a compilation of the very large number of studies that show, in one form or another, that intelligent people also tend to be less religious or less likely to believe in god. They can be summarized like this:

* In a number of different Western societies, studies consistently find that high IQ correlates with low belief, as does high Psychometric g (the general factor in intelligence).
* Elites (who are presumed to be more intelligent) are less likely to believe - and this is especially true of scientists.
* As children grow up, they are less likely to agree with statements like “I believe there is a God” and “God means a lot to me”.
* During the 20th century, religious belief has declined in western nations, coupled with an increase in IQ (the 'Flynn effect')
* Nations with higher average IQ have higher numbers of atheists. I've plotted these data in the graph above. The data on atheism are from a book chapter by Phil Zuckermen (see ref below), and they are unashamedly based on a hodge-podge of data pulled from a variety of more-or-less reliable data. It's the only way to get data on atheism from so many countries.

These numbers are persuasive. The argument that atheists are, on average, more intelligent than believers seems to hold across a range of conditions. It's not as controversial as it sounds. The big, unanswered question is why? Lynn says this:

Many rationalists no doubt accept the argument advanced by Frazer (1922, p.712) in The Golden Bough that as civilisations developed “the keener minds came to reject the religious theory of nature as inadequate … religion, regarded as an explanation of nature, is replaced by science” (by “keener minds” Frazer presumably meant the more intelligent). Others have assumed implicitly or explicitly that more intelligent people are more prone to question irrational or unprovable religious dogmas. For instance, some sixty years ago Kuhlen and Arnold (1944) proposed that “greater intellectual maturity might be expected to increase scepticism in matters of religion”. Inglehart and Welzel (2005, p.27) suggest that in the pre-industrial world, humans have little control over nature, so "they seek to compensate their lack of physical control by appealing to the metaphysical powers that seem to control the world: worship is seen as a way to influence one's fate, and it is easier to accept one's helplessness if one knows the outcome is in the hands of an omnipotent being whose benevolence can be won by following rigid and predictable rules of contact…one reason for the decline in traditional religious beliefs in industrial societies is that an increasing sense of technological control over nature diminishes the need for reliance on supernatural powers".

In other words, if you are smarter, then you can figure out that all this god stuff is nonsense. An attractive argument if you are an atheist, and perhaps true to some extent - but on the other hand it is probably largely wrong.

For a start, look at the graph of IQ versus belief, and focus on nations with a mean IQ of around 100. In these nations, there's almost no correlation between IQ and belief. The apparent connection comes mostly from a gaggle of nations that are characterised by high levels of belief and low IQ. And, importantly, these are all low-income nations. We already know - and Lynn acknowledges - that increasing material wealth in Western Nations in the 20th century lead to increasing IQ. Does this have anything to do with it?

And what about within nations? Those data showing that individuals higher up the social scale have lower levels of belief? These people are not the same as individuals with lower IQ, since they have more control over their lives and are largely free from money and health worries.

And this is the elephant in the room. The thing that connects all these apparent correlations between religiosity and intelligence is a third factor. Something that is fundamentally important as a cause of religious belief, and something I bang on about on this blog quite frequently: that a secure life equals a life in which people can free themselves from religion. Zuckerman, the guy who put together the data on national rates of atheism that Flynn uses, explains it like this:

One leading theory comes from Norris and Inglehart (2004), who argue that in societies characterized by plentiful food distribution, excellent public healthcare, and widely accessible housing, religiosity wanes. Conversely, in societies where food and shelter are scarce and life is generally less secure, religious belief is strong. This is not a new theory (Thrower, 1999). For example, Karl Marx (1843) argued that people who suffer in oppressive social conditions are apt to turn to religion for comfort. Sigmund Freud’s (1927) central thesis was that belief in God served to comfort humans in the face of earthly pain, suffering, and death. However, Marx and Freud provided no data. Norris and Inglehart (2004) do.




For even more information and evidence against the religious side..

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html


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1. I do not know any Nobel prize winners or MENSA members personally, and therefore do not know anything about the reasoning behind their religious beliefs, nor do I know how reliable the surveys were that were utilized, so I will withhold judgment in that particular area. Do you have any websites or other sources that support your claim?
2. My experience (with fairly average people) has been that religion and IQ do not correlate unless you take into account the degree of extremism associated with each person's religious beliefs.
3. You know, you're just as bad as religious extremists in the sense that you try to force your beliefs onto others.
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Posted 11/29/08 , edited 11/29/08
This is a biased claim. First of all, has there been a collective study about the average I.Q. between religious and non-religious people on this planet? And second of all, most religious leaders are incredible speakers, linguists, teachers, mathematicians, scientists, philosophers, cosmologists, etc., even though they are not extremely devoted to a profession outside of religious studies unlike how those alleged non-religious scientists are. Some of the world's most influential scientists do believe in a divine being. For example, Einstein and Gregor Mendel. So what does this claim prove???
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Posted 11/29/08
To add to my previous comment, here's a list of Christian thinkers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science

Note, that this list does not include other religious thinkers....there's more of them.
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Posted 11/29/08

engros wrote:

To add to my previous comment, here's a list of Christian thinkers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science

Note, that this list does not include other religious thinkers....there's more of them.


Contrary to the notion fostered by so-called 'creation-scientists', Albert Einstein did not believe in a personal god.

on another Note, My question was do you think it was true or not? Maby you should of read the thread a little more carefully?

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Posted 11/29/08 , edited 11/29/08
Survey answers among "greater" scientists
%
NAS
members 7%
21%
72%
belief in God agnostic atheists
Belief in personal God 1998
Personal belief 7.0 %
Personal disbelief 72.2
Doubt or agnosticism 20.8
Belief in human immortality 1998
Personal belief 7.9 %
Personal disbelief 76.7
Doubt or agnosticism 23.3

That is the list I found..
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Posted 11/29/08 , edited 11/29/08

madlibbs wrote:

1. I do not know any Nobel prize winners or MENSA members personally, and therefore do not know anything about the reasoning behind their religious beliefs, nor do I know how reliable the surveys were that were utilized, so I will withhold judgment in that particular area. Do you have any websites or other sources that support your claim?
2. My experience (with fairly average people) has been that religion and IQ do not correlate unless you take into account the degree of extremism associated with each person's religious beliefs.
3. You know, you're just as bad as religious extremists in the sense that you try to force your beliefs onto others.


Survey answers among "greater" scientists
%
NAS
members 7%
21%
72%
belief in God agnostic atheists
Belief in personal God 1998
Personal belief 7.0 %
Personal disbelief 72.2
Doubt or agnosticism 20.8
Belief in human immortality 1998
Personal belief 7.9 %
Personal disbelief 76.7
Doubt or agnosticism 23.3
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Posted 11/29/08 , edited 11/29/08

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


engros wrote:

To add to my previous comment, here's a list of Christian thinkers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science

Note, that this list does not include other religious thinkers....there's more of them.


Contrary to the notion fostered by so-called 'creation-scientists', Albert Einstein did not believe in a personal god.

on another Note, My question was do you think it was true or not? Maby you should of read the thread a little more carefully?



I have already answered your question...read my very first sentence, doesn't it imply a disagreement? Read between the lines brotha...
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Posted 11/29/08

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


engros wrote:

To add to my previous comment, here's a list of Christian thinkers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science

Note, that this list does not include other religious thinkers....there's more of them.


Contrary to the notion fostered by so-called 'creation-scientists', Albert Einstein did not believe in a personal god.

on another Note, My question was do you think it was true or not? Maby you should of read the thread a little more carefully?



Actually I read an article sometime in high school how Albert Einstein said something like, even though he doesn't believe in god, his achievements wouldn't be possible without Him...nobody knows how religious or non-religious he was....people just assumed that he isn't since that was the trend or stereotyped amongst scientists back then.
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Posted 11/29/08
hmm..i not so sure about this bro by my 2 cents would be i dont think religion has anything to do with intellect..to me maybe the athesist have more time to devote to scholarly pursuits cuz they dont have to worry abt certain things like being bound by their religious belief.religion does place certain barriers on the mind.example say a religious person would believe that we are descended from adam and that be the end of that but a athesis would probably not think so and would investigate the more"scientific" nature behind how we came to be..well something like that.i would say that non religious ppl are more open to wider view on things..
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Posted 11/30/08
I feel that while it would be easier for someone who wasn't as religious to come to accept things not in line with any religion, it would be wrong to say anything that correlates religion to intelligence, unless you have certain proof.
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Posted 11/30/08
i dont know...that claim is still based on shaky ground...

but personally, i see intelligence as a cognitive ability that is innate and therefore has nothing to do with one's religious beliefs...
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A likely factor behind this would be that people who are non-religious have a higher intellect as they do not believe things told to them and attempt to work out whether something is logical (from young). This is carried into their lives as they apply logical thinking to anything new.

A side effect of the first point might be that there is a drive to know "for sure", rather than to simply accept what is told to them. when you have a drive to do something you tend to spend a lot of time finding out more about something (whether it is simply a scientific area like astronomy, a sport like football, a hobby like photography, an art like painting, a subject like history, etc)

Another probable factor would be that again due to the amount of thinking done from young, the neuron association is much denser and further increases in density as they mature. Creativity and intellgence have been linked to neuron density (not brain size).

Of course as pointed out, the amount of free time not spent on religious ceremonies may be a factor as well.

As for the claim that this as bad as religious extremists in the sense that the original posteris trying to force his/her beliefs onto other, this argument holds no water when you think about whether the statement of forcing beliefs on others was true if the topic was on the results of a study on whether people who have down syndrome have genetically predisposed parents. The basis of both the original topic and this is the same as it is a conclusion based on a number of studies, not a "opinion" as per se.
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Posted 11/30/08
*sigh* religion holds us back as an entire species. many scientists (galileo, etc) tossed away ideas because of this imaginary "god" person. also many were forced to do so. "god" is not real, never has been. "HE" WAS MADE UP BY PEOPLE. THERE IS NO PROOF TO SUPPORT THE CLAIMS OF "HIS" EXISTANCE.
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