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On going case: Christopher Handley faces up to 20 years in prison for owning "obscene" manga
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Posted 1/14/09

'The government alleges that the material includes drawings that they claim appear to be depictions of minors engaging in sexual conduct.' sounds like lolicon to me.



Key word: "alleges"

I'm not saying I condone... whatever it is... that this person is supposed to have done. What I'm objecting to is your apparant condemnation of a man you don't know over alleged action you only have hearsay knowlege of.

It's NOT simple, REALLY.

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Posted 1/14/09


This also apply to vids and games. So most of the Hentai vids could be considered as CP. Drawings or animations that depict sexual acts involving children but are not intended to look like photographs may also be considered by some to be child pornography. An example of this is the hentai sub genre known as lolicon

sry for the long post.
Posted 1/14/09 , edited 1/14/09

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


Zell182 wrote:


'The government alleges that the material includes drawings that they claim appear to be depictions of minors engaging in sexual conduct.' sounds like lolicon to me.



Key word: "alleges"

I'm not saying I condone... whatever it is... that this person is supposed to have done. What I'm objecting to is your apparant condemnation of a man you don't know over alleged action you only have hearsay knowlege of.

It's NOT simple, REALLY.


And here's when I find the government officials were so wrong, by passing judgment based on only what they think about how the accused thoughts measure up against the PROTECT Act , but not the facts whether or not it's a crime of legally purchasing licensed fictional works with explicit contents of cultural taboos:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/alleges
alleges

1. To assert to be true; affirm: alleging his innocence of the charge.
2. To assert without or before proof: The indictment alleges that the commissioner took bribes.
3. To state (a plea or excuse, for example) in support or denial of a claim or accusation: The defendant alleges temporary insanity.
4. Archaic To bring forward as an authority.

Since when did freedom of expression became a crime, and how. That's what I want to know.
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33 / M / Corpus Christi Tx
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Posted 1/14/09
So this means that some of u that loves lolicons can be considered by some people as pedos!!
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Posted 1/14/09
That guy receives a 20 years of imprisonment just for owning an obscene manga?! It's utterly ridiculous.
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Posted 1/14/09
thats retarded they should throw this case out of court and apologize for being retarded and wasteing his time
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Posted 1/14/09
20 years is way too long for that. If he was looking up actual child porn, then yeah, lock him up, but I guess it's your perspective on whether drawn porn is the same as actual porn.

Okay so I've been reading the comments, and well...about the art stuff, it's art. Nudity was considered to be beautiful, and I'm not talking about naked children, more on naked...men and women. You can't compare naked children in art where the main focus is the naked woman or man to child pornography. There's no comparison. Gotta get that off my chest, because it was like comparing apples and oranges.

Anyway, onto the real topic. This will definitely have an impact on people's perspectives on manga/anime, the whole franchise. It's a normal human thing. Something bad happens concerning things like this, and it blows over. It'll die down soon, and it doesn't seem like many people know about this. I just hope a big news station won't go over to a random convention and eye some loli/shouta crap, etc. That would be bad.

This is really complicated. Bringing up politics in a world where I'm trying to get AWAY from the messed up reality.
Posted 1/14/09

Bananaman wrote:



This also apply to vids and games. So most of the Hentai vids could be considered as CP. Drawings or animations that depict sexual acts involving children but are not intended to look like photographs may also be considered by some to be child pornography. An example of this is the hentai sub genre known as lolicon

sry for the long post.

Here's another problem about determining whether or not a legally licensed and published fictional work with explicit content of cultural taboos, is deemed obscene by subjecting to the Miller test:

• Prohibits drawings, sculptures, and pictures of such drawings and sculptures depicting minors in actions or situations that meet the Miller test of being obscene, OR are engaged in sex acts that are deemed to meet the same obscene condition. The law does not explicitly state that images of fictional beings who appear to be under 18 engaged in sexual acts that are not deemed to be obscene are rendered illegal in and of their own condition (illustration of sex of fictional minors).

And here's the detail on the Miller test of being obscene:

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Obscenity#Miller_test
Miller test

The "Miller test" is the United States Supreme Court's test for determining whether speech or expression can be labeled obscene, in which case it is not protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and can be prohibited.

The Miller test was developed in the 1973 case Miller v. California.[2] It has three parts:

* Whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest
* Whether the work depicts/describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions specifically defined by applicable state law
* Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, and scientific value

The work is considered obscene only if all three conditions are satisfied
.

So here's my counterpoint: All legally licensed and published fictional works with explicit content of cultural taboos, are copyrighted & licensed intellectual properties with real property values. This means that as intellectual properties, they are copyright protected literary and artistic works of their respective copyright holders. Thus are not considered to be obscene by the Miller test of being obscene.

http://www.wipo.int/about-ip/en/
What is Intellectual Property?

Intellectual property refers to creations of the mind: inventions, literary and artistic works, and symbols, names, images, and designs used in commerce.

Intellectual property is divided into two categories: Industrial property, which includes inventions (patents), trademarks, industrial designs, and geographic indications of source; and Copyright, which includes literary and artistic works such as novels, poems and plays, films, musical works, artistic works such as drawings, paintings, photographs and sculptures, and architectural designs. Rights related to copyright include those of performing artists in their performances, producers of phonograms in their recordings, and those of broadcasters in their radio and television programs.
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Posted 1/14/09
As I understand it, he hasn't been sentenced yet. However, I think this case holds serious consequences for other manga/anime/comic book consumers. This case will certainly bring a bad reputation to the anime communtity when it is already trying to establish itself as a legitimate form of art. Also, if this strain of thought is followed, I think that gorey anime/comic books/ manga will be next on the goverment hit list. In that case, I'll have to hide my Claymore volumes or else I'll be facing twenty years as well.

I don't really support lolicon, but I hope an anime witch hunt doesn't result from this case.
Posted 1/14/09 , edited 1/14/09

Inu671 wrote:

20 years is way too long for that. If he was looking up actual child porn, then yeah, lock him up, but I guess it's your perspective on whether drawn porn is the same as actual porn.

Okay so I've been reading the comments, and well...about the art stuff, it's art. Nudity was considered to be beautiful, and I'm not talking about naked children, more on naked...men and women. You can't compare naked children in art where the main focus is the naked woman or man to child pornography. There's no comparison. Gotta get that off my chest, because it was like comparing apples and oranges.

Anyway, onto the real topic. This will definitely have an impact on people's perspectives on manga/anime, the whole franchise. It's a normal human thing. Something bad happens concerning things like this, and it blows over. It'll die down soon, and it doesn't seem like many people know about this. I just hope a big news station won't go over to a random convention and eye some loli/shouta crap, etc. That would be bad.

This is really complicated. Bringing up politics in a world where I'm trying to get AWAY from the messed up reality.

Which is why I took their policies and countered their closed mined judgment about lolicons, and put them in their place to leave our anime subculture intact.

And besides, I can even prove that their action was in fact unconstitutional, because they violated the accused freedom of expression, when they arrested him for legally obtaining legit copyrighted & licensed intellectual properties. After all, you don't see people getting arrested when they legally bought the 1955 French fictional literary work of Lolita.
Posted 1/14/09 , edited 1/14/09

OtakuChibi wrote:

As I understand it, he hasn't been sentenced yet. However, I think this case holds serious consequences for other manga/anime/comic book consumers. This case will certainly bring a bad reputation to the anime communtity when it is already trying to establish itself as a legitimate form of art. Also, if this strain of thought is followed, I think that gorey anime/comic books/ manga will be next on the goverment hit list. In that case, I'll have to hide my Claymore volumes or else I'll be facing twenty years as well.

I don't really support lolicon, but I hope an anime witch hunt doesn't result from this case.

Not just that, if the government officials got away with this, just what do you think they will do to other people that's only committing cultural taboo, but not a crime? After all, it's not like we anime fans stole the copyrighted & licensed anime/manga/comic books now, did we?
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Posted 1/14/09

DomFortress wrote:


OtakuChibi wrote:

As I understand it, he hasn't been sentenced yet. However, I think this case holds serious consequences for other manga/anime/comic book consumers. This case will certainly bring a bad reputation to the anime communtity when it is already trying to establish itself as a legitimate form of art. Also, if this strain of thought is followed, I think that gorey anime/comic books/ manga will be next on the goverment hit list. In that case, I'll have to hide my Claymore volumes or else I'll be facing twenty years as well.

I don't really support lolicon, but I hope an anime witch hunt doesn't result from this case.

Not just that, if the government officials got away with this, just what do you think they will do to other people that's only committing cultural taboo, but not a crime?

Most likely the "perpetraitors" will be put on trial and condemned based solely on negative public opinions of their choices, not the law. Although it hasn't gotten that far yet, so there's still hope.
Posted 1/14/09 , edited 1/14/09

OtakuChibi wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


OtakuChibi wrote:

As I understand it, he hasn't been sentenced yet. However, I think this case holds serious consequences for other manga/anime/comic book consumers. This case will certainly bring a bad reputation to the anime communtity when it is already trying to establish itself as a legitimate form of art. Also, if this strain of thought is followed, I think that gorey anime/comic books/ manga will be next on the goverment hit list. In that case, I'll have to hide my Claymore volumes or else I'll be facing twenty years as well.

I don't really support lolicon, but I hope an anime witch hunt doesn't result from this case.

Not just that, if the government officials got away with this, just what do you think they will do to other people that's only committing cultural taboo, but not a crime?

Most likely the "perpetraitors" will be put on trial and condemned based solely on negative public opinions of their choices, not the law. Although it hasn't gotten that far yet, so there's still hope.

That's got "witch hunt", aka moral panic spelling all over it!

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Posted 1/14/09

A moral panic is exactly what I hope doesn't arise from this situation. Like the Death Note notebook incident a few months ago, I'm hoping that this situation will die down before it gets out of hand. There's already enough negative stereotypes going around about anime/mana/comic book consumers without "pedophiles" being added to the list. Since I haven't seen this case discussed on the national television news level yet, there's still the possibility that the situation won't cause any moral panic or public outrage.

Posted 1/14/09 , edited 1/14/09

OtakuChibi wrote:


A moral panic is exactly what I hope doesn't arise from this situation. Like the Death Note notebook incident a few months ago, I'm hoping that this situation will die down before it gets out of hand. There's already enough negative stereotypes going around about anime/mana/comic book consumers without "pedophiles" being added to the list. Since I haven't seen this case discussed on the national television news level yet, there's still the possibility that the situation won't cause any moral panic or public outrage.


The funny thing is, the negative stereotypical characteristics regarding "otaku" were formed around a certain "moral panic" in the Japanese society 20 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsutomu_Miyazaki

While people only focusing on the negative stereotypes going around about anime/mana/comic book consumers, I don't think there's enough of positive reinforcements about anime subculture.

And finally, you should find this interesting, it was a thread that I've made regarding "Japanese manga, anime spotlighted at global conference on sexual exploitation", which a lot of my defenses were based on the discussions I had on this thread: http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-396893/The-Beginning-Of-The-End-For-Virtual-Child-Pronography.html?src=topbar
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