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Warning- Please Read Toradora Fans
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Posted 12/18/08

Tekkei wrote:

Oh my god, lol. I love this so-called true fan vs. self-gratifying fan outrageous bullshit.
Dude, you make some good points, whoever you are, but not everybody has the money nor the means to go around buying shit from other countries in the case an anime isn't licensed. And even when it does come to America, it still isn't cheap, and some people will still not have access to it merely because of something so simple as their location.

Get out of here with all your holier-than-thou self-righteous bullshit. Your little tirade is going nowhere. No matter how many laws and rules and codes and name-calls you throw out, you're not going to convince anyone at a site that streams fansubbed anime. You're wasting your time.



You sir, have a good point.
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Posted 12/18/08
I think the whole point here is the fact that when you watch something illegally, the original company isn't profiting from it. When CR goes legit, merely watching for free benifits the original creators by sharing the ad revenue with them. Paying for a subscription, even more so.

Instead of thinking of it as a moral issue, maybe you should think of it in simple terms of "do I want more?". By supporting a company and buying the DVDs, or watching through official channels, you are basically giving them resources. Resources that they turn around and use to continue producing fine anime.

If you only torrent or watch through illegal channels, then they aren't receiving those resources and therefore can't use the money to make more. Sure, they're still getting some (from the people that actually go through legal channels)... but the whole point of capitalism is to reward hard work with the resources to continue doing that hard work.

If enough people like you go "well, it wont hurt if I do it", then you start seeing companies suffer. Ever wonder why so few series are translated and put to DVD in America? Its because people are downloading illegally and don't buy them when they ARE released.

For those of you that go "well, the people in japan watch it for free on tv, so its fine for me to download illegally, right?", please realize that even the people watching on TV, even they are contributing because of how ad revenue works for commercialized television.

Finally, I do agree that sometimes, there's really no choice about it. Some series simply don't get licensed... sometimes a series never gets licensed at all, and that puts you in a very difficult position. In this case, go ahead and watch however you can. Just try to keep an eye out for what has been licensed.

Because if you aren't contributing, you're leeching. And with enough leeches, even bigger companies can start getting faint from the blood loss. Please don't be a leech.
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Posted 12/18/08
Right but the majority of their revenue comes from the population of japan, some people here are not as fortunate as some of us to be able to read and understand japanese. If CR can tell me that i'll have a subbed version within a couple of days on the release date, i'll support cr, but if i have to wait a while, i'll just youtube it.
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Posted 12/18/08
Right, and in that case, you aren't contributing. The point is, that the more people that contribute and make the internet a profitable place for anime, the more likely we are to see a REAL medium for internet distribution that doesn't rely on shitty quality streams and (at times) sub-par or biased fan subs

Then, there's also the issue that once CR goes legit and licenses stuff, they can start throwing out Cease and Desist (or asking the original copyright holders to) orders to all other streaming sites and fansub groups. And once you have those C&Ds flying around at fansubbers, you'll [hopefully] start seeing a decline in fan subs for licensed anime.

So if you want the anime studios to start officially doing stuff online, maybe you should try making the internet an attractive place for them. This is what people mean when they say that others are "selfish bastards who only care about instant gratification".Those people just want it NOW, and you dont care how that happens and how it affects the makers of the product they [supposedly] love.

And FYI, yes, a majority comes from japan, but the western anime audiance is massive. Thats a lot of revenue the original creators are missing out on due to piracy. Revenue that could be spent doing neat things..... such as making official subtitles ON RELEASE, like Gonzo did recently.
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Posted 12/18/08
point one, even if CR sends out C&D letter, how they gonna back it up? They cant raise enough money for a lawyer to back anything up, so fail on that end. And your right, i dont care, my friends in japan get to watch this for free on prime time tv, why cant i watch it for free? Plus, i'd love to see crunchyroll send out a C&D to a fansub or torrent located outside of the us. They will SURELY take cr seriously...right?
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Posted 12/18/08

kingrobato wrote:

Then, there's also the issue that once CR goes legit and licenses stuff, they can start throwing out Cease and Desist (or asking the original copyright holders to) orders to all other streaming sites and fansub groups. And once you have those C&Ds flying around at fansubbers, you'll [hopefully] start seeing a decline in fan subs for licensed anime.


I seriously don't think that will happen. CR is trying to get fansubs accepted by the license holders. Most anime never gets out of Japan because they can't afford to sub it. Most fansub groups will do really good professional subs for nothing more than their name in the credits. So it makes since for us to be on their side when/if things are licensed here.
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Posted 12/18/08
Its not like they would make any more or less money with us downloading it or not. Its not like they offer it in english. If they did that, I would prolly buy the stuff from now on. Its either this, or I don't watch the anime.
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Posted 12/18/08 , edited 12/18/08
I was talking about anime which has been licensed and is, or will be, available through legitimate channels. If there is no legitimate way to get it, then go for it. Because you're right, you aren't affecting things one way or another by doing that.

Of course, when things are licensed and available legally it becomes a different story. For instance, I know for a fact that I am going to go out and buy Strike Witches, Toradora, and Kannagi as soon as they get US DVD releases. (I would use CR's download feature for SW, but I would rather have a physical DVD in this case). This is particularly important because some studios are having a difficult time. Gonzo for instance is on the verge of bankruptcy.

CR is providing you with a way to do exactly that. Giving back to the people who have so graciously provided you with so many hours of entertainment, and (lets be honest here) don't actually see quite as huge returns as you might expect. There seems to be this illusion on the internet that just because something is popular, it makes money. This is often not the case.

The fact that people are talking about leaving for CR doing what is basically the right thing is disheartening to me. I knew there were a lot of moochers in the community, but I was hoping that more of you would jump at the chance to get free anime whilst also supporting the studios that GIVE them that anime.
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Posted 12/18/08
@kingrobato

Thats what i mean, if/when toradora or others like spice and wolf get a us release date, i'll support them by buying the dvds, like i did with luckystar, deathnote ect..
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Posted 12/18/08
Ok, I think the point of this story is that there should be an anime channel here in the United States. I mean you only have to do half the work to sub it. I think theres a big enough anime audience to do something like that, and if theres only one then there will be little competition.
Posted 12/18/08

killar wrote:


kingrobato wrote:

Then, there's also the issue that once CR goes legit and licenses stuff, they can start throwing out Cease and Desist (or asking the original copyright holders to) orders to all other streaming sites and fansub groups. And once you have those C&Ds flying around at fansubbers, you'll [hopefully] start seeing a decline in fan subs for licensed anime.


I seriously don't think that will happen. CR is trying to get fansubs accepted by the license holders. Most anime never gets out of Japan because they can't afford to sub it. Most fansub groups will do really good professional subs for nothing more than their name in the credits. So it makes since for us to be on their side when/if things are licensed here.

Correction, the anime production companies themselves will be providing the subtitles. According to the copyright act and licensing act, nobody should be altering the content of a copyrighted & licensed intellectual works except the copyright holders and the licensees. If the internet fansub groups want to fansub anime legally, then they need to deal with the anime copyright holders and get license to subtitle the anime. But that would require monetary relief for exchange of goods and services, and I doubt the internet fansub groups like the idea of paying for anything when they would rather just steal anime from the anime industry.
Posted 12/18/08

veryn wrote:

point one, even if CR sends out C&D letter, how they gonna back it up? They cant raise enough money for a lawyer to back anything up, so fail on that end. And your right, i dont care, my friends in japan get to watch this for free on prime time tv, why cant i watch it for free? Plus, i'd love to see crunchyroll send out a C&D to a fansub or torrent located outside of the us. They will SURELY take cr seriously...right?

Unless they would like to have their DMCA limited copyright infringement liability revolted, and thus get charged by their government's criminal law for breaking any and every one out of 5 international copyright treaties, they better take official C & D seriously

Here is a list of countries which have signed and ratified one or more multilateral international copyright treaties as of today(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_international_copyright_treaties):







Now, when you count how many out of the 5 international treaties that your country had signed, and Japan had signed all 5 of them, that's the agreements between Japan and your country's governments to uphold copyright act within their jurisdiction. Once your government find out about your illegal internet download, as well as upload activities by checking your internet access records from your ISP, they'll have all the evidences they need to charge you with their criminal law. Because copyright infringement is the same as stealing intellectual properties that weren't yours. This is also true for OSPs like Veoh and Youtube.
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Posted 12/18/08 , edited 12/18/08

DomFortress wrote:

Correction, the anime production companies themselves will be providing the subtitles. According to the copyright act and licensing act, nobody should be altering the content of a copyrighted & licensed intellectual works except the copyright holders and the licensees. If the internet fansub groups want to fansub anime legally, then they need to deal with the anime copyright holders and get license to subtitle the anime. But that would require monetary relief for exchange of goods and services, and I doubt the internet fansub groups like the idea of paying for anything when they would rather just steal anime from the anime industry.


Wrong.

This is what we are trying to do, strait from shinji:

After talking to many Japanese companies, one of the reasons why some anime never even makes it outside of Japan is because they don't know if there's enough of an audience to recoup the costs of translating =\ This is when I had the idea that CR users could help subtitle and translate so ppl can enjoy it on CR. So we got the permission of some companies to try it out and if it works out well, then hopefully more companies would be willing to put up their content because it won't cost them much. Also, it would be really cool if we eventually had fans translate these animes into every language in the world! I'll make sure that you get credit wherever your subs are shown (maybe even on DVDs one day!)

If this works out then many copyright holders will see a cheap way to get into a more worldwide market. And they (along with many fansub groups) may decide to join in.
Posted 12/18/08

killar wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

Correction, the anime production companies themselves will be providing the subtitles. According to the copyright act and licensing act, nobody should be altering the content of a copyrighted & licensed intellectual works except the copyright holders and the licensees. If the internet fansub groups want to fansub anime legally, then they need to deal with the anime copyright holders and get license to subtitle the anime. But that would require monetary relief for exchange of goods and services, and I doubt the internet fansub groups like the idea of paying for anything when they would rather just steal anime from the anime industry.


Wrong.

This is what we are trying to do, strait from shinji:

After talking to many Japanese companies, one of the reasons why some anime never even makes it outside of Japan is because they don't know if there's enough of an audience to recoup the costs of translating =\ This is when I had the idea that CR users could help subtitle and translate so ppl can enjoy it on CR. So we got the permission of some companies to try it out and if it works out well, then hopefully more companies would be willing to put up their content because it won't cost them much. Also, it would be really cool if we eventually had fans translate these animes into every language in the world! I'll make sure that you get credit wherever your subs are shown (maybe even on DVDs one day!)


If this works out then many copyright holders will see a cheap way to get into a more worldwide market. And they (along with many fansub groups) may decide to join in.

And what is that different than crunchyroll become the licensee of anime series so that the CR users can make subtitles themselves legally. This way crunchyroll and the CR users themselves become anime production company through legal licensing, and fansubbing becomes a legit localization production process because crunchyroll got the license to do this for the CR user. I wasn't wrong.
Posted 12/18/08 , edited 12/18/08
I don't know how to torrent and no need for it.

FYI, someday Road Runner will charge the internet by usage instead of offering a monthly plan in the future.
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