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Israeli assault on Hamas
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Posted 12/27/08 , edited 1/1/09
After months of relative peace the middle eastern conflict between Israel and her neighbors has once again erupted into chaos. The battle started when an extremist Muslim militant group called the Hama fired rockets into Israeli residential neighborhoods. Although damage was relatively minute Israel responded by launching a massive air-raid of security stations. Medical officials have reported more than two hundred fatalities and over seven hundred more men injured. Although most of the afflicted were security officials of the Gaza Strip at least fifteen civilians are dead.

This battle has been documented as the bloodiest in the are since 1967. Egypt and other middle eastern countries have predictably condemned Israel’s actions as unprecedented. America, just as predictable, remains loyal to their long time ally and defends Israel’s action. Although the president intends to help establish yet another cease fire agreement they’re defending Israel’s air-raid.

Media reports vary but are, as is typical of this issue, one sided. Which side they justify varies depending on the source.

Where do you stand on this issue?

Update:

The air strikes have now killed 370 people. About 60 of these were civilians. Israel has begun dropping leaflets to warn civilians of incoming attacks. The UN has begun to set up shelters, and Israel has agreed not to target these areas. Israel has also announced that they are currently considering a 48 hour suspension of their attacks to see if Hamas would stop missile bombardments. Israel has sent troops and tanks to the border.
Posted 12/27/08
Israel has stepped over a line, I have read that hundreds of Israeli troops are said to be heading to the border in preparation for a possible ground invasion of the Palestinian territory. This on top of the building tensions between India and Pakistan , with Pakistan moving 20,000 troops to the Indian border have me a little worried at the moment just hope cool heads prevail.
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Posted 12/27/08
PS: This is what i read prior, so it could be wrong, feel free to correct me on this, just didn't have time to check my facts.

Israel actually have a lot to prove, the use of force is to show Israel is still strong and willing to use force to defend herself especially with attacks on her citizens and civilians. With the election looming, expected the majority of Israel cabinet now comprises of mostly hawkish politicians. The failure of the Israel-Lebanon crisis also looms over Israel where the failure of the military operations was made open to bear and this perceived show of weakness could be fatal to the country especially as it is surrounded by hostile neighbors, thus the need to show her full use of the force to demonstrate her power.

According to Hamas, they wanted to maintain the truce but the rockets fired was revenge for the death of 11 militants and recent closing of Gaza border. Israel officials in turn have said that they have kept Gaza closed in retaliation for the rocket attacks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/world/middleeast/15gaza.html
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Posted 12/27/08 , edited 12/27/08

superninjaboy wrote:

Israel has stepped over a line, I have read that hundreds of Israeli troops are said to be heading to the border in preparation for a possible ground invasion of the Palestinian territory. This on top of the building tensions between India and Pakistan , with Pakistan moving 20,000 troops to the Indian border have me a little worried at the moment just hope cool heads prevail.


Well, considering that Israel is spending absurdly large sums of money fortify their state with a border-wide wall I doubt that they’re intending to invade anyone. Constructing walls is a defensive tactic, not an offensive one. All of Israelis attacks have either be preemptive or retaliatory, so they’re not really on the offense. Don’t you think that the Israelites have a right to defend themselves by any means necessary?

A wise military leader once said that mutual fear is the cornerstone of peace. I think that we could actually avoid a lot of blood shed in the long run if the world would back off Israel and let her defend herself properly. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense, and if we allow Israel to show Palestine that their cause is hopelessly we can disperse terrorist organization. It’s like when Sherman torched Georgia in the Civil War. His actions devastated Confederate supply lines, destroyed southern moral, and are largely responsible for Union victory. Would you say that what he did was wrong, even though it actually caused the war to end possibly decades earlier than it would have otherwise?

The Civil War was the bloodiest battle in American history with over 6,00,000 Americans soldiers dying on the battlefield. Many more were injured, and some died because of health complications caused by injuries within the battle. Yet, nobody criticized the northern forces. They WERE defending civil rights and liberties, after all. But, don’t the Jew’s have a right to live? To defend themselves? I think that Israel is defending the civil rights and liberties, the lives and traditions of her people.


I don't agree with the methods, but then again they have tried the peaceful approach...
Posted 12/27/08

SeraphAlford wrote:


superninjaboy wrote:

Israel has stepped over a line, I have read that hundreds of Israeli troops are said to be heading to the border in preparation for a possible ground invasion of the Palestinian territory. This on top of the building tensions between India and Pakistan , with Pakistan moving 20,000 troops to the Indian border have me a little worried at the moment just hope cool heads prevail.


Well, considering that Israel is spending absurdly large sums of money fortify their state with a border-wide wall I doubt that they’re intending to invade anyone. Constructing walls is a defensive tactic, not an offensive one. All of Israelis attacks have either be preemptive or retaliatory, so they’re not really on the offense. Don’t you think that the Israelites have a right to defend themselves by any means necessary?

A wise military leader once said that mutual fear is the cornerstone of peace. I think that we could actually avoid a lot of blood shed in the long run if the world would back off Israel and let her defend herself properly. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense, and if we allow Israel to show Palestine that their cause is hopelessly we can disperse terrorist organization. It’s like when Sherman torched Georgia in the Civil War. His actions devastated Confederate supply lines, destroyed southern moral, and are largely responsible for Union victory. Would you say that what he did was wrong, even though it actually caused the war to end possibly decades earlier than it would have otherwise?

The Civil War was the bloodiest battle in American history with over 6,00,000 Americans soldiers dying on the battlefield. Many more were injured, and some died because of health complications caused by injuries within the battle. Yet, nobody criticized the northern forces. They WERE defending civil rights and liberties, after all. But, don’t the Jew’s have a right to live? To defend themselves? I think that Israel is defending the civil rights and liberties, the lives and traditions of her people.


I don't agree with the methods, but then again they have tried the peaceful approach...


I think their reaction to the rocket attacks which started this was a bit too much, and yeah the peace talk thing does not really work when you have opposing religious views in the mix, I guess with this news Bushes promise for a deal between Israel and their neighbor have fallen through, that guy is leaving behind one hell of a mess.

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Posted 12/27/08

Northboundsnow wrote:

PS: This is what i read prior, so it could be wrong, feel free to correct me on this, just didn't have time to check my facts.

Israel actually have a lot to prove, the use of force is to show Israel is still strong and willing to use force to defend herself especially with attacks on her citizens and civilians. With the election looming, expected the majority of Israel cabinet now comprises of mostly hawkish politicians. The failure of the Israel-Lebanon crisis also looms over Israel where the failure of the military operations was made open to bear and this perceived show of weakness could be fatal to the country especially as it is surrounded by hostile neighbors, thus the need to show her full use of the force to demonstrate her power.

According to Hamas, they wanted to maintain the truce but the rockets fired was revenge for the death of 11 militants and recent closing of Gaza border. Israel officials in turn have said that they have kept Gaza closed in retaliation for the rocket attacks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/world/middleeast/15gaza.html


Individual extremists are constantly bombing Israeli buildings. Israel has responded by constructing a thick concrete wall around her borders-still working on that, actually. However, this wall must be completely secure in order to provide maximum protection and security for the Israeli families. That means that they cannot leave a weak spot to allow water flows.

Rivers are being blocked by this wall which means Palestinians aren’t able to access the drinking waters. In addition, many Palestinians rely on Israeli hospitals. Receiving health care in Palestine is like trying to attain an abortion in Mississippi. (Mississippi only has one abortion clinic, and it’s surrounded by protestors.)

But, I have to defend Israel’s actions. American companies have been buying oil from middle eastern nations and companies which openly fund terrorist organizations. These organizations then use the income to purchase weapons and kill Americans. They rely on us to provide for them and then kill our troops. Why should we support somebody who’s made it very clear that their goal is to do us and ours harm?

Israel has no reason to show sympathy for a state that’s refused peace and openly announced the desire to eliminate the Jewish presence in the middle east. You don’t happen to know what the best selling book (next to the Qur’an,) is in the Palestine?
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Posted 12/27/08

superninjaboy wrote:


I think their reaction to the rocket attacks which started this was a bit too much, and yeah the peace talk thing does not really work when you have opposing religious views in the mix, I guess with this news Bushes promise for a deal between Israel and their neighbor have fallen through, that guy is leaving behind one hell of a mess.



How is this Bush’s mess? The Israel v. Palestine issue has existed since before Bush was alive. I blame Imperial Rome, Nazi Germany, and Briton. However, if we want to know which US president has contributed the most to the chaos it’s actually Bill Clinton. He pressured Israel into a temporary cease fire when they had a chance to win a significant victory. Their enemies used this chance to regroup and start a fresh campaign against Israel.

Clinton left behind a mess, Bush just failed to clean it up. Hell, Clinton’s actually more responsible for our economic depression than Bush is. Makes your head spin, doesn’t it? We’ve all been blaming the republicans for a democratic president’s screw ups. No, actually that’s not entirely fair. It’s not Clinton’s fault either, he’s just more responsible than Bush is. But, Bush is the new El Nino and EVERYTHING is his fault.

I don’t think that their reaction was a bit too much at all. I mean, what if somebody attacked you? How would you defend yourself? Would you punch him in the nose and stand there until he hits you again? No, you do some semi-serious damage so that he -can’t- hit you again. You don’t have to completely destroy him, but disarming him is a good start. Which is essentially what Israel is doing. They’re not hitting vital organs like hospitals, they’re attacking security facilities.
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Posted 12/27/08
Articles detailing both sides would be nice.
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Posted 12/27/08

SeraphAlford wrote:


Northboundsnow wrote:

PS: This is what i read prior, so it could be wrong, feel free to correct me on this, just didn't have time to check my facts.

Israel actually have a lot to prove, the use of force is to show Israel is still strong and willing to use force to defend herself especially with attacks on her citizens and civilians. With the election looming, expected the majority of Israel cabinet now comprises of mostly hawkish politicians. The failure of the Israel-Lebanon crisis also looms over Israel where the failure of the military operations was made open to bear and this perceived show of weakness could be fatal to the country especially as it is surrounded by hostile neighbors, thus the need to show her full use of the force to demonstrate her power.

According to Hamas, they wanted to maintain the truce but the rockets fired was revenge for the death of 11 militants and recent closing of Gaza border. Israel officials in turn have said that they have kept Gaza closed in retaliation for the rocket attacks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/world/middleeast/15gaza.html


Individual extremists are constantly bombing Israeli buildings. Israel has responded by constructing a thick concrete wall around her borders-still working on that, actually. However, this wall must be completely secure in order to provide maximum protection and security for the Israeli families. That means that they cannot leave a weak spot to allow water flows.

Rivers are being blocked by this wall which means Palestinians aren’t able to access the drinking waters. In addition, many Palestinians rely on Israeli hospitals. Receiving health care in Palestine is like trying to attain an abortion in Mississippi. (Mississippi only has one abortion clinic, and it’s surrounded by protestors.)

But, I have to defend Israel’s actions. American companies have been buying oil from middle eastern nations and companies which openly fund terrorist organizations. These organizations then use the income to purchase weapons and kill Americans. They rely on us to provide for them and then kill our troops. Why should we support somebody who’s made it very clear that their goal is to do us and ours harm?

Israel has no reason to show sympathy for a state that’s refused peace and openly announced the desire to eliminate the Jewish presence in the middle east. You don’t happen to know what the best selling book (next to the Qur’an,) is in the Palestine?


The book?
Not really sure about the book, though i think i know, but feel free to tell me. I have seen a video from Hamas children TV show where a 'barney' like dinosaur was singing and it was singing for the Children to pick up arms and drew Israeli blood, didn't have the stomach to finish watching the whole video, I was horrified, so I am figuring the book must be even worst than that.

A bit on militant Hamas
Hamas seems to be backed in a corner, although being the winner in the last election thus technically the rightful government. Prior to winning the election, Egypt a mediator have requested US and Israel to be patient with Hamas as they believe that should they become a government, Hamas will work closely with Israel, Hamas leaders said that they can agree to work with Israel on a truce though recognizing Israel or a long-lasting peace may not be possible. Unfortunately for them, the US-backed election was not recognized, and Fatah (who also denies Israel), the opposition to Hamas in Palestine, who refused to leave power and is backed by US to stay, is working closely together with Israel, and arresting Hamas leaders. Hamas overseas funds have been frozen and those with links to providing foreign aid to Hamas can face charges of abetting terrorism. They are like cornered animals and I am worried about any possible response from them, so far they have only fired rockets.

Israel and Hamas are equally to blame
You are right to sympathize with Israel to defend herself especially if attack on her civilians but for me I am harsh on Israel as over time they have blocked Gaza and denied UN foreign aid workers into Gaza to provide aid to Palestinian civilians namely women and children, where food shortage and there is a lack of medical care. Previously it was Hamas, not Fatah which provided such aid to the Palestine people but their funds have been frozen. There are also some prior reports of Israeli soldiers denying access or harassing independent journalists covering the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Israel is just as guilty and more so as their standing as a country of repute in International community as Palestine Hamas in attacking civilians and both their hands aren't exactly clean either.
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Posted 12/28/08 , edited 12/28/08
Israel is just plain crazy, the Zionist good-for-nothing regime must go down for sure.

Israel is increasingly regarded as a cruel persecutor bent on destruction. Israel complains about Palestinians wanting to destroy their nation. But in reality the Palestinians have never come near actually doing this. Israel, on the other hand, has so much innocent blood on its hands through intentional disproportionate responses that the reality has now widely sunk in: it is Israel that wants to crush the Palestinians.

Israeli air strikes recorded on camera
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b6a_1230389616




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Posted 12/28/08
Latest on the Israel-Palestinian conflict. This strong show of force by Israel was predicted by US and regional Intelligence experts, Hamas leaders and even Israel officials. Some reports predicted prior before the Obama-Biden administration takes office, where a dovish presidency is expected and to restore standing in the region for past military campaign failure in 2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis,and looming elections, Israel may launch a strong military campaign (perhaps a repeat of Lebanon, massive air strikes followed by land troops mopped up).

BBC- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7800985.stm

Jerusalem Post - http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230111723191&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Al Jazeera- http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/200812283393636670.html

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Posted 12/28/08
Israeli assault on Humans

No more words , going to donate my blood for Palestinians, hope it really reaches there.
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Posted 12/28/08 , edited 12/28/08

Northboundsnow wrote:

The book?
Not really sure about the book, though i think i know, but feel free to tell me. I have seen a video from Hamas children TV show where a 'barney' like dinosaur was singing and it was singing for the Children to pick up arms and drew Israeli blood, didn't have the stomach to finish watching the whole video, I was horrified, so I am figuring the book must be even worst than that.

A bit on militant Hamas
Hamas seems to be backed in a corner, although being the winner in the last election thus technically the rightful government. Prior to winning the election, Egypt a mediator have requested US and Israel to be patient with Hamas as they believe that should they become a government, Hamas will work closely with Israel, Hamas leaders said that they can agree to work with Israel on a truce though recognizing Israel or a long-lasting peace may not be possible. Unfortunately for them, the US-backed election was not recognized, and Fatah (who also denies Israel), the opposition to Hamas in Palestine, who refused to leave power and is backed by US to stay, is working closely together with Israel, and arresting Hamas leaders. Hamas overseas funds have been frozen and those with links to providing foreign aid to Hamas can face charges of abetting terrorism. They are like cornered animals and I am worried about any possible response from them, so far they have only fired rockets.

Israel and Hamas are equally to blame
You are right to sympathize with Israel to defend herself especially if attack on her civilians but for me I am harsh on Israel as over time they have blocked Gaza and denied UN foreign aid workers into Gaza to provide aid to Palestinian civilians namely women and children, where food shortage and there is a lack of medical care. Previously it was Hamas, not Fatah which provided such aid to the Palestine people but their funds have been frozen. There are also some prior reports of Israeli soldiers denying access or harassing independent journalists covering the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Israel is just as guilty and more so as their standing as a country of repute in International community as Palestine Hamas in attacking civilians and both their hands aren't exactly clean either.



I’m sorry but I don’t see why Israel should or would allow medical care and UN agents into Palestine. Wars aren’t won by lining up and shooting the enemy army anymore. It’s all about cutting off supply lines and pressuring the enemy into submission.

Let’s go back to the Civil War again. The southern generals and soldiers were superior to the northern generals and soldiers. Don’t forget that Lincoln’s first choice to lead his army was Robert E. Lee. But, like Stonewall Jackson, Lee fought for the confederates.

Loosing thousands of troops on the military field Lincoln adopted a new strategy. He set up a nation wide naval blockade, destroyed roads, ripped up railroad tracks, and dammed up the Mississippi river. With no supply line and no factories of their own the south was no longer able to supply its army so they took from their citizens.

People were denied basic necessities such as clothing, medicine, food, and water. Again, this tactic actually won the war for the north and saved thousands upon thousands of lives in the long run.

Go back to the Revolutionary War. King George sent supplied the colonies. He sent them candle holders, riffles for hunting, tea, cloths, and even constructed statues in their streets. Then, the colonial militia melted down these candles and statues and made pellets. They used British muskets to kill Red Coats. They drank English Tea and wore British uniforms.

The war could’ve been quick and easy but because George supplied the colonial militia inadvertently they managed to last long enough to attract foreign attention. With foreign attention they were able to attain foreign aid by employing propaganda. George lost that war.

The point is that winning a war isn’t about killing the enemies soldiers. Imagine if America went to war with China. We could kill all the soldiers we like, but China has a near endless supply of citizens to replace them. The killing would be literally endless!

So, how -do- you win a war? You can either destroy the enemy population-genocide, that’s bad-or you can destroy the enemy’s ability to sustain that population and maintain a military force. You have to destroy their factories and cut off their supply lines. That’s what Israel is doing. They’re working to end the war!

They would’ve a long time ago, but western nations keep interfering! Did you know that the Hamas have used the six month cease fire to stockpile and upgrade their weapons?

P.S:

The book is Mein Kampf.
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Posted 12/28/08 , edited 12/28/08
Israel needed to bomb Hamas and they are right in doing it. Air strikes may have not been the best/safest route for civilians (maybe ground troops raiding it).

Hamas needs to be destroyed, and Israel has the right to protect herself. Hamas had been previously bombing Israeli communities near the Gaza strip. Israel did this to protect their citizens. Hamas sends out suicide bombers that target Israeli civilians. How come people aren't bringing that to the table? Hamas is an Islamic terrorist group under the guise of "protecting Palestinians from the Zionist regime." Hamas needs to stop, and the Palestinians and other Middle Eastern nations need to stop funding them and supporting them.
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Posted 12/28/08

digs wrote:

Israel needed to bomb Hamas and they are right in doing it. Air strikes may have not been the best/safest route for civilians (maybe ground troops raiding it).

Hamas needs to be destroyed, and Israel has the right to protect herself. Hamas had been previously bombing Israeli communities near the Gaza strip. Israel did this to protect their citizens. Hamas sends out suicide bombers that target Israeli civilians. How come people aren't bringing that to the table? Hamas is an Islamic terrorist group under the guise of "protecting Palestinians from the Zionist regime." Hamas needs to stop, and the Palestinians and other Middle Eastern nations need to stop funding them and supporting them.


I think everyone here agrees that the Hama were wrong for attacking Israel and using a cease fire to prepare for further aggression. The question is rather or not Israel went overboard? I do not think they did, but to say that they were ‘right,’ to kill people?

I mean, I don’t think we can fault them, but then again I’m not sure that the destruction of innocent human life is ever ‘right.’ Correct, maybe, but right?
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