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Israeli assault on Hamas
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digs 
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Posted 12/28/08

SeraphAlford wrote:


digs wrote:

Israel needed to bomb Hamas and they are right in doing it. Air strikes may have not been the best/safest route for civilians (maybe ground troops raiding it).

Hamas needs to be destroyed, and Israel has the right to protect herself. Hamas had been previously bombing Israeli communities near the Gaza strip. Israel did this to protect their citizens. Hamas sends out suicide bombers that target Israeli civilians. How come people aren't bringing that to the table? Hamas is an Islamic terrorist group under the guise of "protecting Palestinians from the Zionist regime." Hamas needs to stop, and the Palestinians and other Middle Eastern nations need to stop funding them and supporting them.


I think everyone here agrees that the Hama were wrong for attacking Israel and using a cease fire to prepare for further aggression. The question is rather or not Israel went overboard? I do not think they did, but to say that they were ‘right,’ to kill people?

I mean, I don’t think we can fault them, but then again I’m not sure that the destruction of innocent human life is ever ‘right.’ Correct, maybe, but right?


Israel does not have the right to kill innocents. However, I believe they have the right to kill members of Hamas and cripple them and those who support them as means of self defense. I am not sure if air strikes was the best answer (I think troop bombings and raids may have been better because of less civilian deaths). What I understand though, is that Israel did not deliberately want to attack civilians and only aimed for known Hamas targets. Civilians did die and I think it is unfortunate and sad, but Israel did not intend for that to happen (although it can be perceived that with any military action that a number of civilians will die). The destruction of innocent human life is always murder, so in my world view I see the death of innocents as never right or lawful.
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Posted 12/28/08

azera wrote:

Israel is just plain crazy, the Zionist good-for-nothing regime must go down for sure.

Israel is increasingly regarded as a cruel persecutor bent on destruction. Israel complains about Palestinians wanting to destroy their nation. But in reality the Palestinians have never come near actually doing this. Israel, on the other hand, has so much innocent blood on its hands through intentional disproportionate responses that the reality has now widely sunk in: it is Israel that wants to crush the Palestinians.

Israeli air strikes recorded on camera
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b6a_1230389616


Palestine has never come close to destroying Israel, that’s true. But you’re either lying or ignorant if you don’t think that they’ve tried.

Israel hasn’t committed any war crimes and their actions are justified by international law. Seriously, if they’re a regime then why do they keep agreeing to cease fires? They’re obviously much stronger and martially superior to the Palestinians. They even have nuclear strike capabilities. IF they wanted to they could’ve and would’ve destroyed Palestine and the Hama a long time ago. Yet, they haven’t. So, how the hell are they crazy?

NOTHING is as one sided as you’re making this look. Palestine is the aggressor and Israel has continuously attempted to negotiate with moderates.
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Posted 12/28/08
in this world u need all the friends you can get and im afraid muslims arent making any . would china ,japan ,uk , usa, or your country, etc stand for 100s of rockets into their country and not respond .

i think hamas likes to use the Palestinians as shields and leverage to try and justify their extreme Islamic ideologies . by attacking Israelis with rockets mostly innocent civilians. then screaming back to the world when Israel does the same. israel only targets military hamas though civilian causalities cant be escaped. hamas are responsible for launching rockets from the roofs of school's and highly dense area's.

what other ideology screamed about turning the world towards its way and its hate of jews thats right Nazism islam is the same. if muslims dont watch themselves they may push people to far.

like i said before muslims havnt made many friends. attacking christians and catholics( the west) , hindus (india) (nepal) , Buddhists (china),( thailand). jews ,( israel) (iran)( india) atheists( many muslim countries ) .this is supposed to be a peaceful religion btw can you tell.

they cant even find peace among themselves with kurds sunni's and shi'a having countless wars with themselves. including a sunni Muslim Saddam Hussein attacking and committing genocide against Kurdish Muslims to the tune off 181,000 thousand people. simply because he though sunni's muslims were better than kurds.

so if muslims cant agree between themselves i find it hard to see them agreeing with the west . maybe islam could look at turkey and take an example from them.
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Posted 12/28/08

digs wrote:

Israel does not have the right to kill innocents. However, I believe they have the right to kill members of Hamas and cripple them and those who support them as means of self defense. I am not sure if air strikes was the best answer (I think troop bombings and raids may have been better because of less civilian deaths). What I understand though, is that Israel did not deliberately want to attack civilians and only aimed for known Hamas targets. Civilians did die and I think it is unfortunate and sad, but Israel did not intend for that to happen (although it can be perceived that with any military action that a number of civilians will die). The destruction of innocent human life is always murder, so in my world view I see the death of innocents as never right or lawful.


That’s very true. While the Hama actually aim to eliminate Israeli civilians Israel isn’t targeting innocent lives. They bombed security facilities and of the hundreds of people who died fewer than twenty were civilians.

I think that Israel is waging this war in accordance with international law. The UN has created a series of prerequisites before a nation is allowed to engage in war. Israel has acknowledged these and hasn’t committed any war crimes. This is not true of the Hama and Palestinians.

I also feel that the air strikes were the correct decision except that I think they should’ve targeted supply stations rather than security stations. Mind you, that would actually cause the loss of MORE innocent lives in the immediate attack, but in the long run it’s the only way to put an end to all of this.
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Posted 12/28/08

treasonirish wrote:

in this world u need all the friends you can get and im afraid muslims arent making any . would china ,japan ,uk , usa, or your country, etc stand for 100s of rockets into their country and not respond .

i think hamas likes to use the Palestinians as shields and leverage to try and justify their extreme Islamic ideologies . by attacking Israelis with rockets mostly innocent civilians. then screaming back to the world when Israel does the same. israel only targets military hamas though civilian causalities cant be escaped. hamas are responsible for launching rockets from the roofs of school's and highly dense area's.

what other ideology screamed about turning the world towards its way and its hate of jews thats right Nazism islam is the same. if muslims dont watch themselves they may push people to far.

like i said before muslims havnt made many friends. attacking christians and catholics( the west) , hindus (india) (nepal) , Buddhists (china),( thailand). jews ,( israel) (iran)( india) atheists( many muslim countries ) .this is supposed to be a peaceful religion btw can you tell.

they cant even find peace among themselves with kurds sunni's and shi'a having countless wars with themselves. including a sunni Muslim Saddam Hussein attacking and committing genocide against Kurdish Muslims to the tune off 181,000 thousand people. simply because he though sunni's muslims were better than kurds.

so if muslims cant agree between themselves i find it hard to see them agreeing with the west . maybe islam could look at turkey and take an example from them.


Well, that’s not entirely fair. Saudi Arabia is an Islamic country and they donate massive amounts of money to charity every year. They contributed to victims of the tsunami, and even Americans hurt by Hurricane Katrina. Statistics show that the vast majority of Muslims really ARE peaceful.

It’s the Shia sect that’s causing problems. The Sunni are fighting the Shia, but the Sunni are on the defensive.

But, you are right, Israel shouldn’t stand to be bombed constantly without retaliation. This being said the battle is not a religious war. It’s a political war disguised as a religious war.
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Posted 12/28/08

SeraphAlford wrote:

After months of relative peace the middle eastern conflict between Israel and her neighbors has once again erupted into chaos. The battle started when an extremist Muslim militant group called the Hama fired rockets into Israeli residential neighborhoods. Although damage was relatively minute Israel responded by launching a massive air-raid of security stations. Medical officials have reported more than two hundred fatalities and over seven hundred more men injured. Although most of the afflicted were security officials of the Gaza Strip at least fifteen civilians are dead.

This battle has been documented as the bloodiest in the are since 1967. Egypt and other middle eastern countries have predictably condemned Israel’s actions as unprecedented. America, just as predictable, remains loyal to their long time ally and defends Israel’s action. Although the president intends to help establish yet another cease fire agreement they’re defending Israel’s air-raid.

Media reports vary but are, as is typical of this issue, one sided. Which side they justify varies depending on the source.

Where do you stand on this issue?


i want to say that it's not any more about Hamas or Fath or whatever what it is,it's a human case here:People are under airattaks for the second day,two years before Israel leaded a well planed starvation against Gaza which was out of outside connection!Unfortunalty,Arabs remained silent & Egypt refused to open Rafah border(only in some excpetionnal times),frankly i wonder:Is this Israel's idea about punichment????????Should it always be that way???(remember the massive attack against Lebanon to free the two soldiers,who were returned to Israel by negociations a year after)!
I can't find words,if hamas tookover Gaza that's a pure palastenian interne issue,why couldn't the world stand the results of palastenians elections???
Or is it because the soon coming Israeli elections?Do isreali learders need always blood on their hands to win elections???
Stop this cold blood crime!!!at least give the next generations a reason to believe that peace is possible!
Stop,just stop!!
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Posted 12/28/08 , edited 12/28/08

marie_2902 wrote:
Stop this cold blood crime!!!at least give the next generations a reason to believe that peace is possible!
Stop,just stop!!


Tell that to Palestine. Israel already agreed to stop fighting if Palestine would cease aggressions. Palestine refused and the fighting goes on. Palestinians are murdering innocent people in cold blood. Israel is retaliating and winning. Innocent Palestinians are getting caught up in the mix so Palestine is pretending to be the victim. In all reality they’re the ones who started and preserve the war. I wish we could have peace but these extremist murderers refuse.
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Posted 12/28/08
Quotes so far

PS: SeraphAlford, there seems to be something wrong with your thread above, you may need to reedit and clean up your posts.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-421682/Israeli-assault-on-Hamas-.html#20589547

The Book
"You don’t happen to know what the best selling book (next to the Qur’an,) is in the Palestine? .... The book is Mein Kampf." - SeraphAlphord

From what I gather Israel government have reported that 'Mein Kampf' is the 2nd best selling book but other sources pointed out that its actually the 6th best selling book there, though that doesn't make it any better. What exactly is 'Mein Kampf'? It is a highly controversial book dictated by Adolf Hitler combining elements of autobiography with an exposition of Hitler's National Socialist political ideology, taking aside its obvious racist tone and impact of Nazism on the world (holocaust). Its a given that such a book will be popular among the Palestinians, especially within both Hamas and Fatah supporters. I won't lie, I be interested to read any snippets of such a book, just as I am interested any biography by Bush should he do make one, just as I partially watched the controversial racist film "The Birth of a Nation" which United States Library of Congress deemed the film "culturally significant" and selected it for preservation in the National Film Registry.

Pressure on Israel to go to war
"So, how -do- you win a war? ...... You have to destroy their factories and cut off their supply lines. That’s what Israel is doing. They’re working to end the war! They would’ve a long time ago, but western nations keep interfering .... Hamas have used the six month cease fire to stockpile and upgrade their weapons?" -SeraphAlford

"Israel needed to bomb Hamas and they are right in doing it. Air strikes may have not been the best/safest route for civilians (maybe ground troops raiding it). .... Hamas needs to be destroyed, and Israel has the right to protect herself. Hamas had been previously bombing Israeli communities near the Gaza strip." -digs

I am very surprised at why there are so many elements within USA and even within the Israel ruling party to pressure Israel to exert strong force or go to war on Palestine. To take a quote from SeraphAlford, they are fighting a war and from digs, Hamas must be destroyed. I am concerned most of all of Israel as unlike USA, Israel is actually living with neighbors partial to the Palestinian cause. I don't know why but it feels like someone is throwing fire between both these parties and letting them fight it out, both Israel and Palestine and perhaps the middle east are busy fighting one another and USA is considered safe. There was some analysis report to have come out from Clinton's failed attempt to foster peace between the 2 parties, that Israel being economically sufficient will use 'soft' power thus strengthening their case as a recognized country in the International community. The past 2006 Israel-Lebanon which highlighted Israel's military weaknesses had some analysts detailing that Israel and Palestine and the middle east may now be willing to sit down and discuss working towards peaceful co-existence. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding among US and even Israel people that the only way to broker peace is to completely destroy Hamas, but they fail to take into account that the major recruiting tool by Islamic fundamentalist terrorists such as Al-Qaeda, is the plight of the Palestinians.

The right of Israel to defend herself and live also applies to Palestine
"Air strikes may have not been the best/safest route for civilians (maybe ground troops raiding it)." - digs

" ... don’t the Jew’s have a right to live? To defend themselves? I think that Israel is defending the civil rights and liberties, the lives and traditions of her people ... " - SeraphAlford

Most of Gaza though is largely controlled by Hamas despite a Fatah government and Hamas provided jobs and it is unfortunate to have read a report that a civilian police station was bombed. The one good point to come out of the Israel air raid was that Israel have tried their best to target Hamas military targets and civilian targets were minimized. I also read reports that Israel have allowed limited border crossings and humanitarian aid to enter Gaza. Just as the rights of Israel to live, the same rights also applies to the Palestinian people. Israel prior to air strikes and over the years have blocked Gaza and denied UN foreign aid and independent journalists reporting about the situation, whats most important now after these air strikes is that aid especially food, water and medicine is sent to Palestine people, their basic rights to live as well.

The forgotten war on terrorism
One of the sore points about the middle east conflict is that it provides militant and terrorist groups to gain favor and a recruiting tool to join terrorist groups and causes the Muslim world to be sympathetic to the Palestinian and to terrorists with claims of fighting for Palestinian freedom from Israel. People seem to have this misjudge notion that the best way to handle terrorism which is originating from the middle east is to have Israel destroy Palestine, and have USA "blow a huge crater in the middle east for all i care" policy. Middle east countries are forced to join USA or face trade blockage, or be invaded for not abetting to US policies, eg Iran. Such policies do not endear USA and Israel to the International community. Should Israel and USA continue adopting such policy, the war on terrorism will be bloody and not expected end quickly or conclusively. The one way to deal with Islamic terrorism is to get both the International community and the Muslim/religious community working together to deal with this problem.
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Posted 12/28/08

treasonirish wrote:

in this world u need all the friends you can get and im afraid muslims arent making any . would china ,japan ,uk , usa, or your country, etc stand for 100s of rockets into their country and not respond .

i think hamas likes to use the Palestinians as shields and leverage to try and justify their extreme Islamic ideologies . by attacking Israelis with rockets mostly innocent civilians. then screaming back to the world when Israel does the same. israel only targets military hamas though civilian causalities cant be escaped. hamas are responsible for launching rockets from the roofs of school's and highly dense area's.

what other ideology screamed about turning the world towards its way and its hate of jews thats right Nazism islam is the same. if muslims dont watch themselves they may push people to far.

like i said before muslims havnt made many friends. attacking christians and catholics( the west) , hindus (india) (nepal) , Buddhists (china),( thailand). jews ,( israel) (iran)( india) atheists( many muslim countries ) .this is supposed to be a peaceful religion btw can you tell.

they cant even find peace among themselves with kurds sunni's and shi'a having countless wars with themselves. including a sunni Muslim Saddam Hussein attacking and committing genocide against Kurdish Muslims to the tune off 181,000 thousand people. simply because he though sunni's muslims were better than kurds.

so if muslims cant agree between themselves i find it hard to see them agreeing with the west . maybe islam could look at turkey and take an example from them.

Look,100 rockets & not a lot of dead people can't explain this massive attack,who's the stronger here:Israel or Hamas??
Israel is much more stronger,no need to prove it,during all its history,Israel always managed to cause the biggest harm & get away with it,never never never it was the loser!
The intern issues are ,as their name says:INTERN ISSUES,sunni & shiite problems,are(at least for me),useless,so what if u were sunni or shiite,it does mean nothing to anyone,ur actions & works will judge the person!
About friends around the world,can we just remember the attacks the muslims are under:Atheist attacks on Afghanistan,which was by the way the main reason for what Benladen created Alqaida,christian attaks(when Bush announced his holy war against terrorism,mixing all muslim in the same basket,whichmade many under threaths),Jews attaks(1967 war,1982 war....u can't blame a palastenian or a lebanese who hate Israel,trust me they have their reasons)Hindus issues,this is an old problem between Hindu & Muslim even before Indian independence,both attacked each other many times,so,don't blame the nowadays muslims....
Saddam was a dictator,u can't take him as exemple for all muslims,more over,his problems with Kurds were about oil,if u want to describe it as u said u should say saddam was thinking that arabs are better than kurds,& not sunni are better than kurds.........
I'm not with Hamas & i'm not against Israel,i shall say it :Israel gained its permanent place in middle east,so,no need to kill all it neighbors to live in peace, deep & serious negotiations are the solution,enough of blood ,enough of violent attacks,enough of intolerance,just enough!!
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Posted 12/28/08

SeraphAlford wrote:


azera wrote:

Israel is just plain crazy, the Zionist good-for-nothing regime must go down for sure.

Israel is increasingly regarded as a cruel persecutor bent on destruction. Israel complains about Palestinians wanting to destroy their nation. But in reality the Palestinians have never come near actually doing this. Israel, on the other hand, has so much innocent blood on its hands through intentional disproportionate responses that the reality has now widely sunk in: it is Israel that wants to crush the Palestinians.

Israeli air strikes recorded on camera
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b6a_1230389616


Palestine has never come close to destroying Israel, that’s true. But you’re either lying or ignorant if you don’t think that they’ve tried.

Israel hasn’t committed any war crimes and their actions are justified by international law. Seriously, if they’re a regime then why do they keep agreeing to cease fires? They’re obviously much stronger and martially superior to the Palestinians. They even have nuclear strike capabilities. IF they wanted to they could’ve and would’ve destroyed Palestine and the Hama a long time ago. Yet, they haven’t. So, how the hell are they crazy?

NOTHING is as one sided as you’re making this look. Palestine is the aggressor and Israel has continuously attempted to negotiate with moderates.


they tryied but never get even closer,& since 1973 no arab country attacked Israel,it even gained confession of some countrises when they negociated!
So,don't try to deny or ignore that cutting food & gas ,now bombarding is just(the least to say)innapropriate & inacceptable!
About war crimes,do these names remind u something"Sabra & Chatella","Kana","Jenine","Intifada"......???
Don't ever blame a palestinian who hates israel,he has his reasons!
When u say Palestine is the agressor i want to laugh & cry!can't u see the truth?when u can't build a house?can't visit ur siblings??can't except is ur child is coming back safe or coming back killed???
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Posted 12/28/08

SeraphAlford wrote:


marie_2902 wrote:
Stop this cold blood crime!!!at least give the next generations a reason to believe that peace is possible!
Stop,just stop!!


Tell that to Palestine. Israel already agreed to stop fighting if Palestine would cease aggressions. Palestine refused and the fighting goes on. Palestinians are murdering innocent people in cold blood. Israel is retaliating and winning. Innocent Palestinians are getting caught up in the mix so Palestine is pretending to be the victim. In all reality they’re the ones who started and preserve the war. I wish we could have peace but these extremist murderers refuse.


can u tell me how many israeli citizens died & how many palastenians died???
PS:All israeli citizens are doing military service,they stay soldiers even after the end of the service,they can be mobilised at any time!(tlet's see things by the other eyes to know the whole picture of the situation)
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Posted 12/28/08

marie_2902 wrote:

can u tell me how many israeli citizens died & how many palastenians died???
PS:All israeli citizens are doing military service,they stay soldiers even after the end of the service,they can be mobilised at any time!(tlet's see things by the other eyes to know the whole picture of the situation)


You’re completely right. I don’t know how I could be so blind. You’re right. All Israeli citizens are evil nutters who should be executed for constantly attacking the innocent Palestinian terrorists for absolutely no reason.
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Posted 12/28/08

SeraphAlford wrote:


marie_2902 wrote:

can u tell me how many israeli citizens died & how many palastenians died???
PS:All israeli citizens are doing military service,they stay soldiers even after the end of the service,they can be mobilised at any time!(tlet's see things by the other eyes to know the whole picture of the situation)


You’re completely right. I don’t know how I could be so blind. You’re right. All Israeli citizens are evil nutters who should be executed for constantly attacking the innocent Palestinian terrorists for absolutely no reason.


sorry to start this debat with you,i thought we were exchanging viewpoints here,when exactely did i say that all israeli should be excuted????
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Posted 12/28/08

Northboundsnow wrote: The right of Israel to defend herself and live also applies to Palestine
"Air strikes may have not been the best/safest route for civilians (maybe ground troops raiding it)." - digs

" ... don’t the Jew’s have a right to live? To defend themselves? I think that Israel is defending the civil rights and liberties, the lives and traditions of her people ... " - SeraphAlford

Most of Gaza though is largely controlled by Hamas despite a Fatah government and Hamas provided jobs and it is unfortunate to have read a report that a civilian police station was bombed. The one good point to come out of the Israel air raid was that Israel have tried their best to target Hamas military targets and civilian targets were minimized. I also read reports that Israel have allowed limited border crossings and humanitarian aid to enter Gaza. Just as the rights of Israel to live, the same rights also applies to the Palestinian people. Israel prior to air strikes and over the years have blocked Gaza and denied UN foreign aid and independent journalists reporting about the situation, whats most important now after these air strikes is that aid especially food, water and medicine is sent to Palestine people, their basic rights to live as well.


Your argument is entirely valid and to some degree I diffidently agree. I do think that it is terrible for Israel to keep food, water, and medicine from reaching Palestinian victims. But, at this point the argument parallels the abortion issue as addressed by Jarvis Thomson.

Jarvis’ approach to defending abortion is very unique because she grants that a fetus has human rights but that the mother is not obliged to sustain those rights.


Her central example goes like this. Suppose you were kidnapped by music lovers and connected via tubes and wires to a famous violinist whose life now depends upon your remaining connected to him. If you remove the tubes, he dies; if you remain connected for nine months, you both live. Do you have a moral duty not to remove the tubes? Thomson grants that it would be very nice of you not to do so, but, intuitively, you have no such moral duty


(Source: http://www.askphilosophers.org/question/355)

So, I think that it would be very nice of the Israel government to cease construction of its fortification and allow supply, water, and food to flow into Palestine. However, they’re not in any way obliged to do this.

It’s not that I think Israel is right. I just don’t think that western powers should be interfering with the conflict. Palestine doesn’t have the power to commit significant war crimes and Israel doesn’t have the motivation. International laws aren’t being violated.

So, unless we ignore or devalue the regulations we’ve all agreed upon we have no reason to be there.

America, England, and the UN have all succeeded in only one thing with their interventions. They’ve exacerbated the issue. England failed to sustain order and abandoned the territory. The UN ignored protests to the borderlines they assigned. Clinton and Bush both pressured Israel into cease fires (which in no way benefited Israel,) which allowed terrorists enough time to rebuild when they were on the verge of being destroyed.

Israel has a collective right to exist. A state exists to protect its citizens by any means necessary, even if these means are morally questionable. Again, I don’t think that the destruction of innocent life is ever a good thing. I don’t think Israel is a the regional ‘good guy,’ but I do think that their rights are being trespassed upon and they have a right to defend these rights even if that means trespassing on the trespassers right’s.

Israel has a right to fortify her borders. America has considered building a wall on her borders because illegal immigrants are stepping on the rights of American citizens. These immigrants are doing so in order to attain the same rights themselves. By building a wall America denies them these rights. However, that doesn’t make America bad. Because America’s purpose is to protect Americans, not illegal immigrants.

We’re not a world police force and we don’t need to be concerning ourselves with conflicts that don’t involve us so long as international laws are observed. By ignoring this simple deduction we’ve only made things worse. The UN is making things worse by supplying Palestine which is then using those supplies to support terrorist organizations which anger Israel into further subjugation of the actually innocent Palestinians.

Also, it should be noted that Palestine has refused to allow UN agents and reporters as well. It just that they’re not as capable as Israel.
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Posted 12/28/08
Look up on the history of how Israel was created. Some of you may find that certain groups they had help create Israel were then, and if existed today, deemed as terrorist groups.

The ceasefire in place did not stop Israel from laucnhing attacks in Gaza. All it really did was scale the attack down and Hamas even during such a phased tried to prevent other groups from launching such attacks as part of their agreement. Neither side managed to stay or furfil their side of the agreement.

Israeli men of a certain age are obliged to serve in the army and then become reservist. They can be called upon at anytime and they must serve.

The death toll by either side will see that since 2000 far more Palestinians died than Israelis.

Settlements in occupied land are illegal yet they have still been built in the West Bank. Settlers also commit acts of murder which are rarely punished unless documented in video or in some other way.

UK had to deal with Irish Terrorists known as the IRA. People are still agrieved here about how the USA did not hand over suspects and/or help prevent funding for such a group.

I agree with what another person said. Its a political war being disguised as a religious war.

Do you think its alright to kill 5 innocent person to kill one target?
That person's position will be replaced. And relatives of those innocent people just become recruits for that group.
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