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Democratic Socialism
1718 cr points
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63 / M / Croatia
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Posted 2/5/09
if sleepneeded127 had good education (history and geography), which is free for everybody under socialism then he would not give so one - sided answers that only american could give. Yes, his answers are politicaly correct and sound and logical when it comes to america and only america. We are talking about world here, right?
Posted 2/5/09

mikejacobs wrote:


StephyKot87 wrote:


mikejacobs wrote:


StephyKot87 wrote:

I disagreed about Democratic Socialism or Socialism.

Economic freedom (capitalism, free enterprise, property rights), intellectual freedom (science and technology) and self-interest makes societies prosperous. Strong, utopian government (Socialism) leads to nothing but unemployment, poverty, and emigration. Socialism is immoral because it makes people subjects, chattel, owned by the state, which will plan their lives and tell them what to do. Socialism, along with Communism, are one of causes of the Great Depression, raise of National Socialist German Workers' Party and Social Welfare (Nazism) and Soviet, Vietnam War, Khmer Rouge, Serb genocide, Japanese 1986 to 1990 recession, and todays recession. And also Political Correctness

Socialists claim to want to make people better off. They claim to want to reduce poverty, not increase it. They claim capitalism lead to unemployment and deaths. And yet they refuse to approach the issue scientifically, namely by seeing what actually does reduce poverty, and adopting it.

Some of you thinks Socialism is okay or great, but once government give you something, they could also take it away from you.





You do realize that because of socialism in Germany (the rise of the Nazi party), Germany was saved from total bankruptcy. By the way, I think you are mixing socialism with communism, there are countries with socialism and capitalism merged together and it worked to a great degree, China for example (though China is communist...). Another fact that you mistaken on, France is socialist and I don't remember the people been owned by the states, in fact, you could say that they are one of the most liberal for their laws only outlaws things that do not harm other people, taking into account of justice as "minding one owns business" -Plato and "justice is a notion of fair play"-Socrates, not surprisingly, the French motto is about egalitarianism and equality. Kind of tired right now, its 2:00am so if I make any mistakes, don't get too angry.

People are too narrow minded by the way, they keep focusing on a particular word in their ultimate pontency but remember, full on capitalism is bad as full on socialism, just so you know. Just like in everything, we need moderation.


Tell me with example(s) what's bad about "full" on Capitalism?


Well, full on capitalism means that workers would have no "minimum wage", very few rights at all and it would, in most cases, have no right or power in politics, basically the typical scenario of the "rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer", and don't forget that they also have the worst working conditions etc, perfect example would be industrial revolution. You do know that the concept of unions come from communism?



O cry me a river. "rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer" Thats rich.

My Uncle used to start out poor, lived a one bedroom apartment ($300 rent) with his wife and a baby daughter outside of L.A. He and his friend started making their own small business with little or no "minimum wage" because raising the minimum wage reduced employment; most economists knows that. Now my Uncle and his family is rich and living in a nice house in a nice, safe neighborhood. He went from poor to rich.

Industrial Revolution was different back then than now. You know, safer machines, Child labour laws. This isn't the 19 century.

As for unions from communism? My close friend moved here from Moscow, she knows what is like under communism/socialist. She very anit-Socialist because used to lived through one. She said she never got anywhere to be rich because of it (and also minumum wages). She told me she was in very shocked that a lot of people in the US want Socialism since no one never been through it their whole lives like she did.
1489 cr points
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23 / M / Australia
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Posted 2/5/09

StephyKot87 wrote:


mikejacobs wrote:


StephyKot87 wrote:


mikejacobs wrote:


StephyKot87 wrote:

I disagreed about Democratic Socialism or Socialism.

Economic freedom (capitalism, free enterprise, property rights), intellectual freedom (science and technology) and self-interest makes societies prosperous. Strong, utopian government (Socialism) leads to nothing but unemployment, poverty, and emigration. Socialism is immoral because it makes people subjects, chattel, owned by the state, which will plan their lives and tell them what to do. Socialism, along with Communism, are one of causes of the Great Depression, raise of National Socialist German Workers' Party and Social Welfare (Nazism) and Soviet, Vietnam War, Khmer Rouge, Serb genocide, Japanese 1986 to 1990 recession, and todays recession. And also Political Correctness

Socialists claim to want to make people better off. They claim to want to reduce poverty, not increase it. They claim capitalism lead to unemployment and deaths. And yet they refuse to approach the issue scientifically, namely by seeing what actually does reduce poverty, and adopting it.

Some of you thinks Socialism is okay or great, but once government give you something, they could also take it away from you.





You do realize that because of socialism in Germany (the rise of the Nazi party), Germany was saved from total bankruptcy. By the way, I think you are mixing socialism with communism, there are countries with socialism and capitalism merged together and it worked to a great degree, China for example (though China is communist...). Another fact that you mistaken on, France is socialist and I don't remember the people been owned by the states, in fact, you could say that they are one of the most liberal for their laws only outlaws things that do not harm other people, taking into account of justice as "minding one owns business" -Plato and "justice is a notion of fair play"-Socrates, not surprisingly, the French motto is about egalitarianism and equality. Kind of tired right now, its 2:00am so if I make any mistakes, don't get too angry.

People are too narrow minded by the way, they keep focusing on a particular word in their ultimate pontency but remember, full on capitalism is bad as full on socialism, just so you know. Just like in everything, we need moderation.


Tell me with example(s) what's bad about "full" on Capitalism?


Well, full on capitalism means that workers would have no "minimum wage", very few rights at all and it would, in most cases, have no right or power in politics, basically the typical scenario of the "rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer", and don't forget that they also have the worst working conditions etc, perfect example would be industrial revolution. You do know that the concept of unions come from communism?



O cry me a river. "rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer" Thats rich.

My Uncle used to start out poor, lived a one bedroom apartment ($300 rent) with his wife and a baby daughter outside of L.A. He and his friend started making their own small business with little or no "minimum wage" because raising the minimum wage reduced employment; most economists knows that. Now my Uncle and his family is rich and living in a nice house in a nice, safe neighborhood. He went from poor to rich.

Industrial Revolution was different back then than now. You know, safer machines, Child labour laws. This isn't the 19 century.

As for unions from communism? My close friend moved here from Moscow, she knows what is like under communism/socialist. She very anit-Socialist because used to lived through one. She said she never got anywhere to be rich because of it (and also minumum wages). She told me she was in very shocked that a lot of people in the US want Socialism since no one never been through it their whole lives like she did.


Okay, if you say so oh and theres a reason why, according to you, many people in US want socialism, because US is screwed up in many aspects, health, living standards, freedom et cetera. Can't be bothered to give you the statistics so just use google if you want.
13262 cr points
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21 / M / O.C. So.Cal
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Posted 2/5/09
it will never work. the average voter is so stupid mob rule will ruin the country
22 cr points
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24 / M / Canada
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Posted 2/5/09

mikejacobs wrote:


StephyKot87 wrote:


mikejacobs wrote:


StephyKot87 wrote:


mikejacobs wrote:


StephyKot87 wrote:

I disagreed about Democratic Socialism or Socialism.

Economic freedom (capitalism, free enterprise, property rights), intellectual freedom (science and technology) and self-interest makes societies prosperous. Strong, utopian government (Socialism) leads to nothing but unemployment, poverty, and emigration. Socialism is immoral because it makes people subjects, chattel, owned by the state, which will plan their lives and tell them what to do. Socialism, along with Communism, are one of causes of the Great Depression, raise of National Socialist German Workers' Party and Social Welfare (Nazism) and Soviet, Vietnam War, Khmer Rouge, Serb genocide, Japanese 1986 to 1990 recession, and todays recession. And also Political Correctness

Socialists claim to want to make people better off. They claim to want to reduce poverty, not increase it. They claim capitalism lead to unemployment and deaths. And yet they refuse to approach the issue scientifically, namely by seeing what actually does reduce poverty, and adopting it.

Some of you thinks Socialism is okay or great, but once government give you something, they could also take it away from you.





You do realize that because of socialism in Germany (the rise of the Nazi party), Germany was saved from total bankruptcy. By the way, I think you are mixing socialism with communism, there are countries with socialism and capitalism merged together and it worked to a great degree, China for example (though China is communist...). Another fact that you mistaken on, France is socialist and I don't remember the people been owned by the states, in fact, you could say that they are one of the most liberal for their laws only outlaws things that do not harm other people, taking into account of justice as "minding one owns business" -Plato and "justice is a notion of fair play"-Socrates, not surprisingly, the French motto is about egalitarianism and equality. Kind of tired right now, its 2:00am so if I make any mistakes, don't get too angry.

People are too narrow minded by the way, they keep focusing on a particular word in their ultimate pontency but remember, full on capitalism is bad as full on socialism, just so you know. Just like in everything, we need moderation.


Tell me with example(s) what's bad about "full" on Capitalism?


Well, full on capitalism means that workers would have no "minimum wage", very few rights at all and it would, in most cases, have no right or power in politics, basically the typical scenario of the "rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer", and don't forget that they also have the worst working conditions etc, perfect example would be industrial revolution. You do know that the concept of unions come from communism?



O cry me a river. "rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer" Thats rich.

My Uncle used to start out poor, lived a one bedroom apartment ($300 rent) with his wife and a baby daughter outside of L.A. He and his friend started making their own small business with little or no "minimum wage" because raising the minimum wage reduced employment; most economists knows that. Now my Uncle and his family is rich and living in a nice house in a nice, safe neighborhood. He went from poor to rich.

Industrial Revolution was different back then than now. You know, safer machines, Child labour laws. This isn't the 19 century.

As for unions from communism? My close friend moved here from Moscow, she knows what is like under communism/socialist. She very anit-Socialist because used to lived through one. She said she never got anywhere to be rich because of it (and also minumum wages). She told me she was in very shocked that a lot of people in the US want Socialism since no one never been through it their whole lives like she did.


Okay, if you say so oh and theres a reason why, according to you, many people in US want socialism, because US is screwed up in many aspects, health, living standards, freedom et cetera. Can't be bothered to give you the statistics so just use google if you want.


I have to side with mike on this one. If your friend lived in the Soviet Union, she did not experience socialism, she experienced communism. There are distinct differences between the two systems. Also, from what I've seen, one of the main things pro-socialist Americans seem to want introduced is a universal health care system. I don't blame them either, as medical expenses in the States are high enough that they can cripple even some of the higher class members of the society.
Posted 2/5/09



Okay, if you say so oh and theres a reason why, according to you, many people in US want socialism, because US is screwed up in many aspects, health, living standards, freedom et cetera. Can't be bothered to give you the statistics so just use google if you want.


Hold on, I told my reason based from one of the people I know and learned who used to lived in Socialist society and you just kick it away and suggest me to use statistics from google.

The reason why US was in a recession is those dickheads from Washington D.C. who aren't doing their jobs and waisted all the money for nothing and they are still doing it now (think spending bills). It's not Capitalism at fault, its childish game they try do make a excuse to have big government; again, they're not doing their jobs. Dear God, Thomas Jefferson is rolling in grave!

I may be one stubborn bitch, but how about talking to actual people who lived or once lived in a Socialist society, not google.

5231 cr points
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22 / M / Mammago Garage, Y...
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Posted 2/5/09

StephyKot87 wrote:
Hold on, I told my reason based from one of the people I know and learned who used to lived in Socialist society and you just kick it away and suggest me to use statistics from google.


That's because your reason was "socialism=communism and commies suck." Even I, someone who's not well educated on this subject, can tell you that they aren't the same thing.
22 cr points
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24 / M / Canada
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Posted 2/5/09

StephyKot87 wrote:




Okay, if you say so oh and theres a reason why, according to you, many people in US want socialism, because US is screwed up in many aspects, health, living standards, freedom et cetera. Can't be bothered to give you the statistics so just use google if you want.


Hold on, I told my reason based from one of the people I know and learned who used to lived in Socialist society and you just kick it away and suggest me to use statistics from google.

The reason why US was in a recession is those dickheads from Washington D.C. who aren't doing their jobs and waisted all the money for nothing and they are still doing it now (think spending bills). It's not Capitalism at fault, its childish game they try do make a excuse to have big government; again, they're not doing their jobs. Dear God, Thomas Jefferson is rolling in grave!

I may be one stubborn bitch, but how about talking to actual people who lived or once lived in a Socialist society, not google.



As I already tried to explain to you, the full name of the Soviet Union may have included the word socialist, but in the end it was more of a communist state, due mainly to the early totalitarian leadership of Stalin. Also, your point that Capitalism is not at fault is very shallow. You don't seem to grasp that Capitalism promotes greed, and that it is exactly that greed which caused the recession. It wasn't just the government, although Bush's decision to continue to build on the national debt did contribute a great deal to the recession. It was primarily the decision by bank executives to give out risky loans in order to make more money for themselves and their stockholders that caused this recession.
Scientist Moderator
digs 
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Posted 2/5/09 , edited 2/5/09
Soviet Russia was socialist, it was just heavily enforced which would lead us to believe it was communist (as in mass conformity to the government). Capitalism isn't at fault for the current crisis, the banking industry is because of idiotic creditors (and they were this way because the government told them too, look at Freddie Mack[FHLMC] and Fannie Mae[FNMA] both are government institutions). We are in this shape because many many loans have gone sour, this is the government encouraged banks to lend large amounts of money to people who's income couldn't pay it back. Capitalism didn't fail, and if it was at fault you would see a different kind of problem. If the problem was due to unregulated capitalism the problem should be similar to the late 19th, early 20th century with companies becoming monopolies and having complete control over a specific industry. America's problem was caused by greedy bankers thinking they can milk massive interest from loans they know will probably go bad (the longer it takes to pay off, the more interest they make) and the government pressuring these banks to make these loans. Government stepped in and messing things up, to fix it government needs to step out (and by stepping out, they need to not spend, they need to remove tax burdens and make taxes overall lower, not this re-distribution of wealth garbage).
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24 / M / Canada
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Posted 2/5/09 , edited 2/5/09

digs wrote:

Soviet Russia was socialist, it was just heavily enforced which would lead us to believe it was communist (as in mass conformity to the government). Capitalism isn't at fault for the current crisis, the banking industry is because of idiotic creditors (and they were this way because the government told them too, look at Freddie Mack[FHLMC] and Fannie Mae[FNMA] both are government institutions). We are in this shape because many many loans have gone sour, this is the government encouraged banks to lend large amounts of money to people who's income couldn't pay it back. Capitalism didn't fail, and if it was at fault you would see a different kind of problem. If the problem was due to unregulated capitalism the problem should be similar to the late 19th, early 20th century with companies becoming monopolies and having complete control over a specific industry. America's problem was caused by greedy bankers thinking they can milk massive interest from loans they know will probably go bad (the longer it takes to pay off, the more interest they make) and the government pressuring these banks to make these loans. Government stepped in and messing things up, to fix it government needs to step out (and by stepping out, they need to not spend, they need to remove tax burdens and make taxes overall lower, not this re-distribution of wealth garbage).


First of all, Soviet Russia was not socialist. Mass conformity to the government implies a totalitarianistic state, and socialism is about giving people freedoms, basically the opposite of totalitarianism. The reason that Soviet Russia, like many other communist states, is referred to as socialist is the fact that communism has been, and still is to an extent, viewed as a branch of socialism. There are distinct differences between communism and socialism though, and the majority of people fail to see that.

Second, FHLMC and FNMA were not government controlled until the collective takeover of both corporations by the FHFA this past September. They were government sponsored. The ownership of both companies lies with private shareholders, and there are legal provisions that allow the government to take a 79.9% ownership share if necessary. These companies are controlled by the shareholders and executives, and it was these people who made the decisions to give out those loans, not the government.

Now when you say that Capitalism is not at fault, but that the "idiotic creditors" in the banking industry are, you are essentially contradicting yourself. Those creditors are able to make those poor decisions because of the lack of restrictions on business in a Capitalist economy. They never would have had that kind of power in a socialist economy.

Also, I didn't want to bring this up if I could help it, but I feel that maybe you might take my opinion more seriously if I prove to you that I too have a higher level of intelligence. You say in the post I've quoted below that you scored a 28 on the ACT. Well FYI, I wrote the SAT, and got a 700 on the math section alone. After the conversion, my SAT score is the equivalent of about a 30 ACT score. My IQ has also been tested multiple times, and I've consistently scored in the 140's most times, with the exception of a 137 on the first test, which was done when I was 14. These are all tests of logic and reasoning, and indicate that I am at least as well educated as you are.


digs wrote:
I am a very opinionated person I don't want to brag, but my brain is fine. I scored a 28 on the ACT (ranking in the top 7% of the country and the top 1% by earning a 34 on the science portion) and I have a 3.75 college GPA. I don't say this to brag (because God gave me my abilities and all glory and thanks goes to Him) But I would argue that I am not uneducated or politically ignorant.
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63 / M / Croatia
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Posted 2/5/09
To everybody: USSR OR UNITED SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLIC
1489 cr points
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23 / M / Australia
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Posted 2/6/09

StephyKot87 wrote:




Okay, if you say so oh and theres a reason why, according to you, many people in US want socialism, because US is screwed up in many aspects, health, living standards, freedom et cetera. Can't be bothered to give you the statistics so just use google if you want.


Hold on, I told my reason based from one of the people I know and learned who used to lived in Socialist society and you just kick it away and suggest me to use statistics from google.

The reason why US was in a recession is those dickheads from Washington D.C. who aren't doing their jobs and waisted all the money for nothing and they are still doing it now (think spending bills). It's not Capitalism at fault, its childish game they try do make a excuse to have big government; again, they're not doing their jobs. Dear God, Thomas Jefferson is rolling in grave!

I may be one stubborn bitch, but how about talking to actual people who lived or once lived in a Socialist society, not google.



Umm, just so you know, I used to live in a socialist society and my family have spent nearly their whole life in a socialist society and they liked it though it all fell apart when wars came along. So, your retort is kind of nulled.
Posted 2/6/09

Cuddlebuns wrote:


StephyKot87 wrote:
Hold on, I told my reason based from one of the people I know and learned who used to lived in Socialist society and you just kick it away and suggest me to use statistics from google.


That's because your reason was "socialism=communism and commies suck." Even I, someone who's not well educated on this subject, can tell you that they aren't the same thing.


I know socialism and communism are different.
Posted 2/6/09

mikejacobs wrote:


StephyKot87 wrote:




Okay, if you say so oh and theres a reason why, according to you, many people in US want socialism, because US is screwed up in many aspects, health, living standards, freedom et cetera. Can't be bothered to give you the statistics so just use google if you want.


Hold on, I told my reason based from one of the people I know and learned who used to lived in Socialist society and you just kick it away and suggest me to use statistics from google.

The reason why US was in a recession is those dickheads from Washington D.C. who aren't doing their jobs and waisted all the money for nothing and they are still doing it now (think spending bills). It's not Capitalism at fault, its childish game they try do make a excuse to have big government; again, they're not doing their jobs. Dear God, Thomas Jefferson is rolling in grave!

I may be one stubborn bitch, but how about talking to actual people who lived or once lived in a Socialist society, not google.



Umm, just so you know, I used to live in a socialist society and my family have spent nearly their whole life in a socialist society and they liked it though it all fell apart when wars came along. So, your retort is kind of nulled.



Which country are you referring, or you just try to pull my leg? I had relatives in Eastern Europe under Socialists society and they told me it was all bull of something like you said about Socialism.

Posted 2/6/09

mikejacobs wrote:


StephyKot87 wrote:




Okay, if you say so oh and theres a reason why, according to you, many people in US want socialism, because US is screwed up in many aspects, health, living standards, freedom et cetera. Can't be bothered to give you the statistics so just use google if you want.


Hold on, I told my reason based from one of the people I know and learned who used to lived in Socialist society and you just kick it away and suggest me to use statistics from google.

The reason why US was in a recession is those dickheads from Washington D.C. who aren't doing their jobs and waisted all the money for nothing and they are still doing it now (think spending bills). It's not Capitalism at fault, its childish game they try do make a excuse to have big government; again, they're not doing their jobs. Dear God, Thomas Jefferson is rolling in grave!

I may be one stubborn bitch, but how about talking to actual people who lived or once lived in a Socialist society, not google.



Umm, just so you know, I used to live in a socialist society and my family have spent nearly their whole life in a socialist society and they liked it though it all fell apart when wars came along. So, your retort is kind of nulled.



Which country or google are you referring to, or you just try to pull my leg? I also had relatives in Eastern Europe under Socialists society and they told me it was all bull of something like you said about Socialism.

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