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If You Want Legit Anime With Good Subs On CR, Here's How To DIY
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Posted 1/7/09 , edited 1/7/09

DomFortress wrote:
In simple term, it means that since CR asked the CR users to subtitle the legit anime series with this agreement, if anything went wrong with this at the court, CR will take full responsibility since the CR user who did the subtitling agreed to have nothing to do with the subs after submission.


I waited 45 minutes (I wrote the bottom part of my post in 5 minutes) for a response that actually addressed what I said in the previous post, but you sidestepped the issue and ignored my post.

But I'll still address your latest post. In particular:
(I don't get the "legit" anime part. What's "illegitimate" anime, then? I'll ignore it below...)
CR isn't asking its users to subtitle anime series; they're ALLOWING users to subtitle the anime legally. This comes at the cost of the fansubbers' rights to the work; CR waives copyright protection of derivative translations, the fansubber waives ownership and moral rights.

"take full responsibility" Er, no. There's nothing in the document that suggests CR is going to take responsibility for any legal issues, lawsuits, fees, etc. It would have been written in there if that was the case. Law is very explicit: if there isn't a clause in the document, neither party has to do it. So if I uploaded a jokesub and *I* got sued, since CR didn't say they have to protect me, I'd be fined/jailed. OTOH if CR got sued, I don't have to rush to their defense. They get fined/jailed.

"nothing to do with the subs after submission" Er, no. They take away your rights of ownership and "moral rights", but you've agreed to the contract so you are linked to the subtitle. (assuming you click "I agree")
Posted 1/7/09

Sh1zuka wrote:


DomFortress wrote:
In simple term, it means that since CR asked the CR users to subtitle the legit anime series with this agreement, if anything went wrong with this at the court, CR will take full responsibility since the CR user who did the subtitling agreed to have nothing to do with the subs after submission.


I waited 45 minutes (I wrote the bottom part of my post in 5 minutes) for a response that actually addressed what I said in the previous post, but you sidestepped the issue and ignored my post.

But I'll still address your latest post. In particular:
(I don't get the "legit" anime part. What's "illegitimate" anime, then? I'll ignore it below...)
CR isn't asking its users to subtitle anime series; they're ALLOWING users to subtitle the anime legally. This comes at the cost of the fansubbers' rights to the work; CR waives copyright protection of derivative translations, the fansubber waives ownership and moral rights.

"take full responsibility" Er, no. There's nothing in the document that suggests CR is going to take responsibility for any legal issues, lawsuits, fees, etc. It would have been written in there if that was the case. Law is very explicit: if there isn't a clause in the document, neither party has to do it. So if I uploaded a jokesub and *I* got sued, since CR didn't say they have to protect me, I'd be fined/jailed. OTOH if CR got sued, I don't have to rush to their defense. They get fined/jailed.

"nothing to do with the subs after submission" Er, no. They take away your rights of ownership and "moral rights", but you've agreed to the contract so you are linked to the subtitle. (assuming you click "I agree")

Illegitimate fansubs are made by internet fansub groups, when they subtitled and then released stolen copyrighted & licensed anime series without legal consents from the original anime creators. Because the internet fansub groups never acquired the license to legally alter & distribute the anime series in the first place.

This section of the agreement is exactly stated to protect CR users who subtitled the anime series on CR, if it ever went wrong:

3. Ownership.

c. Further Assurances. At Crunchyroll's request, during and after the term of these Translation Terms, you will assist and cooperate with either party in all respects, and will execute documents, and will take such further acts reasonably requested by Crunchyroll to enable Crunchyroll to acquire, transfer, maintain, perfect and enforce its intellectual property rights and other legal protections for the Translated Content. You hereby appoint the officers of Crunchyroll as your attorney-in-fact to execute documents on your behalf for this limited purpose. You warrant that all so-called moral rights you may have in any Translated Content are hereby waived. If for any reason a court of competent jurisdiction finds Section 2(b) herein to be unenforceable, then you hereby grant or will cause to be granted to Crunchyroll an exclusive, royalty-free, irrevocable, perpetual, transferable, worldwide license (with the right to sublicense) to use, copy, reproduce, modify, prepare derivative works based upon, distribute, sublicense, display, perform and transmit the Translated Content in any media formats and through any media channels.

It basically said that by wavering the moral rights of the subtitles, the CR user who made the sub will grant CR full license to use the CR user's sub. This makes CR both the copyright holder and the licensee of the CR user made subtitles. Any if anything went wrong, even for a jokesub, CR and only CR will be responsible to answer to the law. Because CR had agreed to represent both the anime creators by becoming the licensee of the anime series, and the CR user made subtitles by becoming the copyright holder.
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Posted 1/8/09 , edited 1/8/09

DomFortress wrote:
Illegitimate fansubs are made by internet fansub groups, when they subtitled and then released stolen copyrighted & licensed anime series without legal consents from the original anime creators. Because the internet fansub groups never acquired the license to legally alter & distribute the anime series in the first place.

This section of the agreement is exactly stated to protect CR users who subtitled the anime series on CR, if it ever went wrong:

3. Ownership.

c. Further Assurances. At Crunchyroll's request, during and after the term of these Translation Terms, you will assist and cooperate with either party in all respects, and will execute documents, and will take such further acts reasonably requested by Crunchyroll to enable Crunchyroll to acquire, transfer, maintain, perfect and enforce its intellectual property rights and other legal protections for the Translated Content. You hereby appoint the officers of Crunchyroll as your attorney-in-fact to execute documents on your behalf for this limited purpose. You warrant that all so-called moral rights you may have in any Translated Content are hereby waived. If for any reason a court of competent jurisdiction finds Section 2(b) herein to be unenforceable, then you hereby grant or will cause to be granted to Crunchyroll an exclusive, royalty-free, irrevocable, perpetual, transferable, worldwide license (with the right to sublicense) to use, copy, reproduce, modify, prepare derivative works based upon, distribute, sublicense, display, perform and transmit the Translated Content in any media formats and through any media channels.

It basically said that by wavering the moral rights of the subtitles, the CR user who made the sub will grant CR full license to use the CR user's sub. This makes CR both the copyright holder and the licensee of the CR user made subtitles. Any if anything went wrong, even for a jokesub, CR and only CR will be responsible to answer to the law. Because CR had agreed to represent both the anime creators by becoming the licensee of the anime series, and the CR user made subtitles by becoming the copyright holder.


"Illegitimate fansubs are made by internet fansub groups, when they subtitled and then released stolen copyrighted & licensed anime series without legal consents from the original anime creators."
Yeah, but we're talking about Crunchyroll here, not fansubs in general. Every anime on CR is now legal and legit, and assuming they didn't change the TOS since they posted it (which they can do legally), even before the "revolution" CR was basically allowing *legal* subtitling of unlicensed series.

"It basically said that by wavering the moral rights of the subtitles, the CR user who made the sub will grant CR full license to use the CR user's sub. This makes CR both the copyright holder and the licensee of the CR user made subtitles. Any if anything went wrong, even for a jokesub, CR and only CR will be responsible to answer to the law. Because CR had agreed to represent both the anime creators by becoming the licensee of the anime series, and the CR user made subtitles by becoming the copyright holder."
Part 3.c is a agglomeration of *multiple points* they want to make as secondary 'back up' phrases for possible loopholes, not something that's supposed to tie together legal CYA, waiving moral rights, and licensing. You're drawing a false relationship between moral rights and CR's rights. By the way, I still don't see where you think CR is going to protect the fansubber. Are you actually really reading my posts, or skimming them?

So, I must apologize for continuing to fail at understanding why it is necessary for CR to require the moral rights to be waived.
CR can require full licensing rights if they add 3.c's "unlimited" (my term for it) licensing provisions (marked in blue) without the "should 2.b prove to be unenforcable" clause.
LaO 
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Posted 1/8/09
Wow good stuff! i'll try to inform my TL'ing buddies! woot...
14676 cr points
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Posted 1/8/09
Why would you sub for a commercial site that will make profit from your labor? If you do, you must enjoy being used and abused in your personal life. For those willing to work for free, I have some yard work and home remodeling that needs to be done. You will break a sweat, bleed, I will boss you around, and curse at you for no good reason. What will you receive in return for your labor? I will give you a "Certificate of Recognition."

P.S. I do not provide water, food, breaks are not allowed, and you cannot use my restroom facilities.
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Posted 1/8/09 , edited 1/8/09

Sh1zuka wrote:


DomFortress wrote:
Illegitimate fansubs are made by internet fansub groups, when they subtitled and then released stolen copyrighted & licensed anime series without legal consents from the original anime creators. Because the internet fansub groups never acquired the license to legally alter & distribute the anime series in the first place.

This section of the agreement is exactly stated to protect CR users who subtitled the anime series on CR, if it ever went wrong:

3. Ownership.

c. Further Assurances. At Crunchyroll's request, during and after the term of these Translation Terms, you will assist and cooperate with either party in all respects, and will execute documents, and will take such further acts reasonably requested by Crunchyroll to enable Crunchyroll to acquire, transfer, maintain, perfect and enforce its intellectual property rights and other legal protections for the Translated Content. You hereby appoint the officers of Crunchyroll as your attorney-in-fact to execute documents on your behalf for this limited purpose. You warrant that all so-called moral rights you may have in any Translated Content are hereby waived. If for any reason a court of competent jurisdiction finds Section 2(b) herein to be unenforceable, then you hereby grant or will cause to be granted to Crunchyroll an exclusive, royalty-free, irrevocable, perpetual, transferable, worldwide license (with the right to sublicense) to use, copy, reproduce, modify, prepare derivative works based upon, distribute, sublicense, display, perform and transmit the Translated Content in any media formats and through any media channels.

It basically said that by wavering the moral rights of the subtitles, the CR user who made the sub will grant CR full license to use the CR user's sub. This makes CR both the copyright holder and the licensee of the CR user made subtitles. Any if anything went wrong, even for a jokesub, CR and only CR will be responsible to answer to the law. Because CR had agreed to represent both the anime creators by becoming the licensee of the anime series, and the CR user made subtitles by becoming the copyright holder.


"Illegitimate fansubs are made by internet fansub groups, when they subtitled and then released stolen copyrighted & licensed anime series without legal consents from the original anime creators."
Yeah, but we're talking about Crunchyroll here, not fansubs in general. Every anime on CR is now legal and legit, and assuming they didn't change the TOS since they posted it (which they can do legally), even before the "revolution" CR was basically allowing *legal* subtitling of unlicensed series.

"It basically said that by wavering the moral rights of the subtitles, the CR user who made the sub will grant CR full license to use the CR user's sub. This makes CR both the copyright holder and the licensee of the CR user made subtitles. Any if anything went wrong, even for a jokesub, CR and only CR will be responsible to answer to the law. Because CR had agreed to represent both the anime creators by becoming the licensee of the anime series, and the CR user made subtitles by becoming the copyright holder."
Part 3.c is a agglomeration of *multiple points* they want to make as secondary 'back up' phrases for possible loopholes, not something that's supposed to tie together legal CYA, waiving moral rights, and licensing. You're drawing a false relationship between moral rights and CR's rights. By the way, I still don't see where you think CR is going to protect the fansubber. Are you actually really reading my posts, or skimming them?

So, I must apologize for continuing to fail at understanding why it is necessary for CR to require the moral rights to be waived.
CR can require full licensing rights if they add 3.c's "unlimited" (my term for it) licensing provisions (marked in blue) without the "should 2.b prove to be unenforcable" clause.


Hello all, it's your favourite attorney at law come to meddle in affairs.

I don't like the CR user-submitted TOS. I'll be blunt about it. It's a cheap way for CR to do their translation work, and in fact you will be paying for a service in which you're expected to do your own translation work. CR would not have any legal or obligation to pay you for your services neither does it have any obligation to give you credit for your work. In fact the work does not belong to you; it belongs to CR as the TOS requires you to handle the ownership of the work over to CR.

3c is indeed a "catch all" clause. It's designed to operate in such a manner as that in the case that CR is unable to claim ownership of the translated script (as in if it can be shown that you as the user owns the script), then instead it operates to give the translator ownership of the script, however allows CR the exclusive use of it, rending your ownership of the script useless.

In this instance "moral rights" means "equitable rights". In the context that "you will waive your moral rights", this means that not only are you expected to extinguish your legal rights to the translation script, but any other rights that may arise out of notions like fairness, equity, or on the merits of the case are similarly given up.

In such circumstances there is no "protection" or fansubbers. What is actually happening is CR trying to get its fanbase into doing translation work for free or at a very low cost. There is no issue in this. The owner, having given CR the right to distribute its anime over the internet, has similarly given CR the right to make accurate translations of the anime. How CR does this and at what cost is of no concern to the owner.
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Posted 1/8/09
If only fansubbers would take the time to do it... this could be a start though.. spread the word
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Posted 1/8/09

Sh1zuka wrote:


DomFortress wrote:
In simple term, it means that since CR asked the CR users to subtitle the legit anime series with this agreement, if anything went wrong with this at the court, CR will take full responsibility since the CR user who did the subtitling agreed to have nothing to do with the subs after submission.


I waited 45 minutes (I wrote the bottom part of my post in 5 minutes) for a response that actually addressed what I said in the previous post, but you sidestepped the issue and ignored my post.

But I'll still address your latest post. In particular:
(I don't get the "legit" anime part. What's "illegitimate" anime, then? I'll ignore it below...)
CR isn't asking its users to subtitle anime series; they're ALLOWING users to subtitle the anime legally. This comes at the cost of the fansubbers' rights to the work; CR waives copyright protection of derivative translations, the fansubber waives ownership and moral rights.

"take full responsibility" Er, no. There's nothing in the document that suggests CR is going to take responsibility for any legal issues, lawsuits, fees, etc. It would have been written in there if that was the case. Law is very explicit: if there isn't a clause in the document, neither party has to do it. So if I uploaded a jokesub and *I* got sued, since CR didn't say they have to protect me, I'd be fined/jailed. OTOH if CR got sued, I don't have to rush to their defense. They get fined/jailed.

"nothing to do with the subs after submission" Er, no. They take away your rights of ownership and "moral rights", but you've agreed to the contract so you are linked to the subtitle. (assuming you click "I agree")


The document specifically states that by agreeing to it and uploading user submitted subs to CR, CR then retains the intellectual property right over the subs in question, and that the uploading user is to do everything in its power to necessitate the transfer of those rights in question or to execute documentation (implied or expressly), that will appoint CR as the owner of the translation script. The document then goes on to attempt to extinguish legal and equitable rights that the translator has over the script, basically stripping ownership from them.

In the event that the above cannot happen or it is deemed that the actions of CR is illegal, CR then attempts to establish that the translator establishes or grants CR an exclusive, worldwide, and transferrable license, that basically means that the translator can own the script, but cannot market it, sell it, or license it to anybody else.

In such a situation it is then evident that should CR be involved in any litigation it is clear that CR, being the owner or the exclusive licensee of the translation, will be at the front lines. The translator is safe against litigation on two fronts:

1. The translator no longer has any legal or equitable interest in the intellectual property in question
2. CR facilitated the "breach of copyright" by providing to the translator the intellectual property in question.
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Posted 1/8/09
since i dont know any jap
i cant do anything about this
and you have to pay, that messed up
Posted 1/8/09 , edited 1/8/09


yeah thats true but mabye shinji is a poor man so he can't do that :3 but if he could do it that would be awesome ehh but i'll just wait and wait untill cr haves some good and legal anime what i can watch in europe =3=
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Posted 1/8/09
establish..

that's a long way to go man.

anyway, good job
Posted 1/8/09

kedakai wrote:

Why would you sub for a commercial site that will make profit from your labor? If you do, you must enjoy being used and abused in your personal life. For those willing to work for free, I have some yard work and home remodeling that needs to be done. You will break a sweat, bleed, I will boss you around, and curse at you for no good reason. What will you receive in return for your labor? I will give you a "Certificate of Recognition."

P.S. I do not provide water, food, breaks are not allowed, and you cannot use my restroom facilities.


brennan wrote:


Sh1zuka wrote:


DomFortress wrote:
Illegitimate fansubs are made by internet fansub groups, when they subtitled and then released stolen copyrighted & licensed anime series without legal consents from the original anime creators. Because the internet fansub groups never acquired the license to legally alter & distribute the anime series in the first place.

This section of the agreement is exactly stated to protect CR users who subtitled the anime series on CR, if it ever went wrong:

3. Ownership.

c. Further Assurances. At Crunchyroll's request, during and after the term of these Translation Terms, you will assist and cooperate with either party in all respects, and will execute documents, and will take such further acts reasonably requested by Crunchyroll to enable Crunchyroll to acquire, transfer, maintain, perfect and enforce its intellectual property rights and other legal protections for the Translated Content. You hereby appoint the officers of Crunchyroll as your attorney-in-fact to execute documents on your behalf for this limited purpose. You warrant that all so-called moral rights you may have in any Translated Content are hereby waived. If for any reason a court of competent jurisdiction finds Section 2(b) herein to be unenforceable, then you hereby grant or will cause to be granted to Crunchyroll an exclusive, royalty-free, irrevocable, perpetual, transferable, worldwide license (with the right to sublicense) to use, copy, reproduce, modify, prepare derivative works based upon, distribute, sublicense, display, perform and transmit the Translated Content in any media formats and through any media channels.

It basically said that by wavering the moral rights of the subtitles, the CR user who made the sub will grant CR full license to use the CR user's sub. This makes CR both the copyright holder and the licensee of the CR user made subtitles. Any if anything went wrong, even for a jokesub, CR and only CR will be responsible to answer to the law. Because CR had agreed to represent both the anime creators by becoming the licensee of the anime series, and the CR user made subtitles by becoming the copyright holder.


"Illegitimate fansubs are made by internet fansub groups, when they subtitled and then released stolen copyrighted & licensed anime series without legal consents from the original anime creators."
Yeah, but we're talking about Crunchyroll here, not fansubs in general. Every anime on CR is now legal and legit, and assuming they didn't change the TOS since they posted it (which they can do legally), even before the "revolution" CR was basically allowing *legal* subtitling of unlicensed series.

"It basically said that by wavering the moral rights of the subtitles, the CR user who made the sub will grant CR full license to use the CR user's sub. This makes CR both the copyright holder and the licensee of the CR user made subtitles. Any if anything went wrong, even for a jokesub, CR and only CR will be responsible to answer to the law. Because CR had agreed to represent both the anime creators by becoming the licensee of the anime series, and the CR user made subtitles by becoming the copyright holder."
Part 3.c is a agglomeration of *multiple points* they want to make as secondary 'back up' phrases for possible loopholes, not something that's supposed to tie together legal CYA, waiving moral rights, and licensing. You're drawing a false relationship between moral rights and CR's rights. By the way, I still don't see where you think CR is going to protect the fansubber. Are you actually really reading my posts, or skimming them?

So, I must apologize for continuing to fail at understanding why it is necessary for CR to require the moral rights to be waived.
CR can require full licensing rights if they add 3.c's "unlimited" (my term for it) licensing provisions (marked in blue) without the "should 2.b prove to be unenforcable" clause.


Hello all, it's your favourite attorney at law come to meddle in affairs.

I don't like the CR user-submitted TOS. I'll be blunt about it. It's a cheap way for CR to do their translation work, and in fact you will be paying for a service in which you're expected to do your own translation work. CR would not have any legal or obligation to pay you for your services neither does it have any obligation to give you credit for your work. In fact the work does not belong to you; it belongs to CR as the TOS requires you to handle the ownership of the work over to CR.

3c is indeed a "catch all" clause. It's designed to operate in such a manner as that in the case that CR is unable to claim ownership of the translated script (as in if it can be shown that you as the user owns the script), then instead it operates to give the translator ownership of the script, however allows CR the exclusive use of it, rending your ownership of the script useless.

In this instance "moral rights" means "equitable rights". In the context that "you will waive your moral rights", this means that not only are you expected to extinguish your legal rights to the translation script, but any other rights that may arise out of notions like fairness, equity, or on the merits of the case are similarly given up.

In such circumstances there is no "protection" or fansubbers. What is actually happening is CR trying to get its fanbase into doing translation work for free or at a very low cost. There is no issue in this. The owner, having given CR the right to distribute its anime over the internet, has similarly given CR the right to make accurate translations of the anime. How CR does this and at what cost is of no concern to the owner.

Understandable, but then this would raise the question why & how did internet fansub groups subtitled all those illegitimate fansubs illegally before. And although it's true that CR did once hosted illegitimate fansubs on the site, but all contents hosted by CR were user submitted materials, meaning that the CR users put them there for their own purpose, while CR just played host by offering its bandwidth, as an OSP who provides only the service of uploading, accessing, streaming, and downloading video files. And now that there's a legal option for all sides to get what they want, I don't think there's any reason why they shouldn't go through with this.
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Posted 1/8/09 , edited 1/8/09
So are people paying CR so that they can watch anime subbed by other users, who may also be paying CR?
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Posted 1/8/09
This is sh*t....
Then why did they delete all the fansubbed stuff, if you could sub it here...
the only difference is that fansubbers get the RAW ilegally, while CR gives the episodes after a while....
Strangeee....
Posted 1/8/09

akiluvshee wrote:

So are people paying CR so that they can watch anime subbed by other users, who may also be paying CR?

Or watch it free with basic membership, made free by other CR users on basic membership.
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