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Subtitling, Voice Dubbing, They Are All The Same For Localizing
Posted 1/10/09

Arcuied wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


Arcuied wrote:

I think it's rather that people consider dubbing=Americanizing, which sometimes it is (e.g. Initial D), which is also one of the reasons fans prefer fansubbing over official subs, this could also translate as "licensed manga vs. scanlated manga".

Let's face it, some companies do suck and try to make changes that they believe are for the better but instead, end up ruining the anime (e.g. Dragon Ball in it's first years), yet others do try to keep the original dialogues as much as they can. Unfortunately, they also need to cater to newcomers to anime, and that can be a bit difficult when trying to translate words or terms that are rather untranslatable or it would change the whole context (e.g. -senpai, -sama, hitsuzen), or cultural quirks (e.g. calling classmates by their last names but your girlfriend or friends by their name).

But I found that the English dubbing on some anime series were done so well with the scripts, the voice acting and directing, that it was even better than the original Japanese voice acting. Godannar, Dai Guard, G-Gundam, actually a lot of super robot genre anime series with over-the-top acting, all have superb English voice dubbing.

Now that I think about it, the English dubbing in anime is trying to compete with the Japanese voice acting in terms of script writings, acting and directing. And as an anime DVD collector, I'm getting twice as many acting contents with my North American licensed DVD that featured both spoken languages. Now talk about being spoiled.


I agree that some dubs do end up being better than the original. A few years ago, Mexican dub was considered the best in the world, I'm not kidding, and not just including Japanese anime, American cartoons and movies as well.

I don't think this has been mentioned before, but in Japan, dub acting is a well respected career, whereas in other parts of the world it could be considered a side-job or hobby. That might be one of the reasons the original dub is considered superior, since it's taken more seriously unlike in America. That's changing now though.


However the Japanese voice acting business is suffering in the market as of late:

80% of Seiyū Take Part-Time Jobs to Make Ends Meet
posted on 2009-01-05 23:14 EST
Voice-acting agency head says only 10% have full-time voice careers

Ameba News posted the first part of an interview with Shōmu Shirogane, who is a seiyū (voice actor), a narrator, and the president of the Winner Entertainment voice-acting management agency. According to Shirogane, there are about 1,600 people who work as seiyū in Japan. Of that number, about 10% work full-time as freelancing seiyū. However, 80% cannot make ends meet with their voice-acting assignments alone, and have to take on part-time jobs elsewhere. The remainder includes actors, idols, and media talents who perform in other fields. Another 80,000 are said to be potential seiyū and people who are applying to be seiyū.

Many in the latter group are training to be seiyū in over 50 vocational schools for the profession in Japan. Shirogane acknowledges that becoming a seiyū is difficult with little guarantee of success, even for the approximate half of the profession that are affiliated with an agency. Ameba News' second part of the interview will include Urara Takano, another seiyū who runs a seiȳu management agency called Remax.


Source:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-01-05/80-percent-of-seiyu-take-part-time-jobs-to-make-ends-meet
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Posted 1/10/09 , edited 1/10/09
Well, let me tell you. If Phoenix Wright didn't say "Objection", and said some random japanese word, I would be pissed. And if the game was called Gyakuten Syaban or whatever in America, I would be pissed again. And if his name was Ryuuichi Naruhodou, I wouldn't be as pissed, but I still would be.

I think you know my stance on this.

That said... If Phoenix Wrights voice was lame sounding, I'd rather hear Japanese if it sounded better.
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Posted 1/10/09
No one disputes that dubbing is necessary to draw in a wider audience. However, that doesn't change the fact that most dubbing is horrible by comparison.
Posted 1/10/09 , edited 1/10/09

freyt wrote:

Well, let me tell you. If Phoenix Wright didn't say "Objection", and said some random japanese word, I would be pissed. And if the game was called Gyakuten Syaban or whatever in America, I would be pissed again. And if his name was Ryuuichi Naruhodou, I wouldn't be as pissed, but I still would be.

I think you know my stance on this.

That said... If Phoenix Wrights voice was lame sounding, I'd rather hear Japanese if it sounded better.


samuraikatana1 wrote:

No one disputes that dubbing is necessary to draw in a wider audience. However, that doesn't change the fact that most dubbing is horrible by comparison.

Yes, while managing to uphold the bottom line for localization on licensed anime that's aimed to entertain a wide range of fans alike, by delivering the story itself to the local audiences faithfully and truthfully, voice dubbing as a business can always strike to be more professional in terms of scripts, voice acting performances and directing skills. And once we all understand that fact, we can learn to appreciate and advocate the voice dubbing companies that are professionally doing their jobs.
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Posted 1/10/09


Make your post longer, like all your other posts.

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Posted 1/10/09
what is the topic exaclty is there a discussion to be had or were u just giving info!
ermz subbing is to my knowledge people putting the english translations on anime
liscencing means they want u to buy the anime and stop watching it for free - nothing to do with dubs which isnt professional in the first place
dubbing is the professional translation into english
which is a lot shorter than whatever u sed although knowing me there is prob something wrong with what i sed...
Posted 1/10/09

rexxar wrote:



Make your post longer, like all your other posts.


Well in order to have more people to understand my statement, I'm trying something new with this thread; by making it low profile, slow at passing judgment, and write as little as it takes to get my point across. I'm just going through a learning phase with this.
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Posted 1/10/09
Sometimes i like dubs,like in dragonball z,I prefer it in English.But sometimes the american accents really get on my nerves.So dont mind dubbing most of the time,especially since reading subs makes me miss whats on screen.
Posted 1/10/09

Mazza_anifan wrote:

what is the topic exaclty is there a discussion to be had or were u just giving info!
ermz subbing is to my knowledge people putting the english translations on anime
liscencing means they want u to buy the anime and stop watching it for free - nothing to do with dubs which isnt professional in the first place
dubbing is the professional translation into english
which is a lot shorter than whatever u sed although knowing me there is prob something wrong with what i sed...

Then understand that for any voice dubbing company to be good at their jobs, all they had to do is to be professional in terms of scripts, voice acting performances and directing skills, while still manage to uphold the bottom line for localization on licensed anime that's aimed to entertain a wide range of local audiences alike, by delivering the story itself to the local audiences faithfully and truthfully.
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Posted 1/10/09

DomFortress wrote:


Mazza_anifan wrote:

what is the topic exaclty is there a discussion to be had or were u just giving info!
ermz subbing is to my knowledge people putting the english translations on anime
liscencing means they want u to buy the anime and stop watching it for free - nothing to do with dubs which isnt professional in the first place
dubbing is the professional translation into english
which is a lot shorter than whatever u sed although knowing me there is prob something wrong with what i sed...

Then understand that for any voice dubbing company to be good at their jobs, all they had to do is to be professional in terms of scripts, voice acting performances and directing skills, while still manage to uphold the bottom line for localization on licensed anime that's aimed to entertain a wide range of local audiences alike, by delivering the story itself to the local audiences faithfully and truthfully.


ok i got it so whats the problem (dont interpret that as rude i just dont get it all)
Posted 1/10/09

miserykitsune wrote:

Sometimes i like dubs,like in dragonball z,I prefer it in English.But sometimes the american accents really get on my nerves.So dont mind dubbing most of the time,especially since reading subs makes me miss whats on screen.

That's unfortunate, because the localization on North American licensed DBZ region 1 medias, is aimed for the North American audiences in general. Perhaps you can treat it as an experience with North American culture?
Posted 1/10/09

Mazza_anifan wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


Mazza_anifan wrote:

what is the topic exaclty is there a discussion to be had or were u just giving info!
ermz subbing is to my knowledge people putting the english translations on anime
liscencing means they want u to buy the anime and stop watching it for free - nothing to do with dubs which isnt professional in the first place
dubbing is the professional translation into english
which is a lot shorter than whatever u sed although knowing me there is prob something wrong with what i sed...

Then understand that for any voice dubbing company to be good at their jobs, all they had to do is to be professional in terms of scripts, voice acting performances and directing skills, while still manage to uphold the bottom line for localization on licensed anime that's aimed to entertain a wide range of local audiences alike, by delivering the story itself to the local audiences faithfully and truthfully.


ok i got it so whats the problem (dont interpret that as rude i just dont get it all)

Nothing, for my moral purpose is to present you with the truth. And as long as I can make you understand the facts with my statement, my action is justified. And I would like to thank you for taking your time to read my statement.
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Posted 1/10/09
This is such a great idea to make the audience in anime community bigger and anime should have mainstream, and casual alike ppl to watch them, instead of leaving it too much original(like Jap audio and concept), in which it target niche and real hardcore fans. @DomFortress, you're pretty smart and very informative that unlike many ppl here or somewhere need to know what's the problem and solve the problem in order to get the understanding of the circumstances.
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Posted 1/10/09
Given the choice of watching an anime subbed or dubbed, I will almost always watch it dubbed, but that is for personal reasons that I certainly don't expect many others here to share.

As most people on CR are in their teens or early 20's, it will take them 20-30 years to understand one of the reasons, assuming they are still watching anime at that time. Frankly, my reading speed now sucks compared to what it was at those ages, so now reading subtitles greatly detracts from watching what is on screen. With scene with continous dialog, I might as well be watching a slide show with a soundtrack.

It doesn't help the case of subs with me in that I am a more visually oriented person. Even if I was able to read as quickly as when I was young, given the choice between a relatively low quality sub streaming online, and a high quality dub aired on TV, I would likely still choose the latter. From comments I have seen in many other threads, I suspect many on CR would rather watch a pixelated mess with subtitles than watch crystal clear hi-res video if it meant listening to a dub.

I certainly don't have a problem with people that prefer subs, as that is a personal preference. What I do have a problem with is people with the "all dubs sucks" attitude. It is unlikely these people have seen more than a few dubs (since they say they all suck), and certainly haven't seen all of them. Worse are those that make it evident that if they were in charge, dubs wouldn't exist at all; something of a twist on, "It isn't enough that I succeed, all others must fail".

I really have to wonder how many times people thinking a dub sucks is due to what I call the "First Exposure Principle". One example is a remake of a movie. People that are not aware of or have not seen the original are more likely to like the remake, and complain about how dated the original is if and when they see it. Likewise, those that saw the original are more likely to criticize the remake for any differences, and even deem it unnecessary.

Likewise, if you watch most of a series, or an entire series in the native language before you ever see the dub, the voices are going to simply sound "wrong". It would be a bit like having a character in a live action show suddenly played by a different actor, but an alternative version was available that still used the original actor. Even if the new actor was actually objectively better, most people that started watching the show with the original actor would prefer that version.
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Posted 1/10/09
This reminds me somewhat of another thread. (official subs vs. fansubs) I'm going to cross post my response from that here. and also direct you to an entertaining you tube video that explains things far better than I could.


Well I hail back to the day when Fansubs were the only game in town. Usually imported direct via tourist airplane on a BetaMax Video tape.

For me, "Fansub" has baggage of "labour of love" and "ooh some of those cool cartoons we don't have in north america"

However, at times this becomes like the Sub vs. Dub debate. on that one I tend to be in favour of dubs (especially within the last five years) and tend to be in favour of official subs.

The problem with the so called "accuracy" of subs or fansubs (depending on which debate and when you are talking about) is one of the validity of a 'translation of meaning' vs. a 'literal translation'

I don't speak japanese so my example will be from the two languages I do speak English and French.

Among the english speakers I cohabit with, it's common to say of a heavy downpour of rain: "It's raining cats and dogs"

Likewise, among those who speak french living nearest me it is said of heavy rain "Il pluie a boire debut" (lit: it's raining so you can drink standing up) or "Il pluie des clus" (lit: it's raining nails")

proponents of the 'accuracy' of Subs vs. Dubs or Fansubs, vs Official subs, would have it that I should when speaking french try to explain why I think it's raining animals or when speaking english use the admittedly colourful but not readily recognised literal translations of the french. complete with awkward phrasing.

The other argument is that the true translator translates meaning so when translating from english to french 'cats and dogs' should become "nails and drinking upright" and vice versa.

The latter argument is apparantly the professional translators' view. A professional translator must take the idiom of one language and make it intelligable even idiomatic in the new language. this requires an understanding of both languages AND the context and meaning of the original statement being translated. From that point of view, leaving non-english words and awkward phrasings in a translation is a cop out.

Generally, I sometimes enjoy the awkward phrases and colourful ideas expressed in the more 'accurate' translations. But honestly, with decent voice acting I prefer dubs overall on an artistic level and find it hard to support anything other than an 'official' translation difficult to support on an ethical level.

so I guess my vote is for 'official translation' (even if some of them DO suck tremendously)


and the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYlqLlbix0&feature=PlayList&p=0285C4D5A017C6CF&index=0&playnext=1

as a side note. Subtitles or dubs need to be done with care. blatent typographical errors and an obvious lack of proofreading made Zaion pretty much unwatchable for me.
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