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Subtitling, Voice Dubbing, They Are All The Same For Localizing
Posted 1/11/09

DomFortress wrote:


But of course things do need to be adjusted per nationalized taboos, racial taboos and so forth, but I'm not speaking of explicit contents. I'm not talking about abridging taboos. I am speaking of the changing of a story based not on taboos or explicit content, but for the fear that the audience is too dense to figure out racial differences. Because the producers of the Licenses are simply to lazy or just do not care to for a simple heading.

Your 'trainees' yes you need to know their physical limit, but thats only to train them to reach it. And if they wish to surpass it. It's not an excuse to simply not do it. Physical training is about reaching your potential and surpassing it if possible. If not then no harm no foul but you tried. Placing a small heading every so often in an anime, could be considered a educational movement to teach Americans, and in your case Canadians, emphasizes education of another culture. In through this education, people learn how other people think. In this way we can hope to bypass racial stereotypes and confusion should the two cultures come into conflict. While that may be a little innocent and naive, to be completely truthful, we do not know what the future will entail.

If we take the angelic layer example from my other post, I do not see a reason to change the slurping of udon and the eating noodles with your nose to be any different from each other. In American society it is considered impolite to slurp your noodles, while eating it through your nose is a much greater offense and considered disgusting, compared to rude of a slurp.

Naruto (whom I hate) is shown in Japan with a lot more bloodshed and death then shown in US, and I understand for the target audience it needed to be tone down. I completely understand about target audience. But it is being done to audaciously, because it needs to be dubbed it doesn't always need to be changed. People can learn of new culture and ideas by simply making a small sub.

And if that is too distracting for people..they don't have to pay attention to it? And while those who desire to learn, can still do so.
Posted 1/11/09

TheAncientOne wrote:


::shudder::

Ok thats got to be bad if it makes your ears bleed. Mine that I cannot stand is the voice for the glasses girl on Witch Hunters..or the tank girl on Elf Hunters. ::shudder:: the best voice ever in my opinion was Makoto from Stand Alone Complex.

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Posted 1/11/09

Batarang wrote:

::shudder::

Ok thats got to be bad if it makes your ears bleed. Mine that I cannot stand is the voice for the glasses girl on Witch Hunters..or the tank girl on Elf Hunters. ::shudder:: the best voice ever in my opinion was Makoto from Stand Alone Complex.


If you have a Netflix account, or know someone that does, it is available to watch instantly. It should take less than a minute to verify how truly horrid the dub is.

There are a few others on there that have also been shown on Sci-Fi that are not at all good. Most everything that has been shown on Sci-Fi has ended up available to watch instantly on Netflix, but sadly no Gurren Lagan yet. (I missed 2 episodes due to satellite reception problems).


If you are referring to the dub for GAC, I agree. I think I could listen to the VA (Mary Elizabeth McGlynn) that does her voice read a phone book.
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Posted 1/11/09

TheAncientOne wrote:

[
On a slightly different topic, I bothers me that characters or devices that speak english are redubbed. I assume it is due to some licensing issue (i.e., the need to make payment to the original Japanese VA if their voice were used). For example, I fully expect that when I recieve my first Nanoha DVD from Netflix, I will find Raging Heart (or Raising Heart) being voiced by someone new, despite the fact that it originally spoke in english.



To flip this one around a little more... it is interesting to note that while Pokemon and most of the characters are redubbed, there is one that isn't. As part of the contract, Pikachu will always have the original voice actress. I think this is interesting. Especially considering most of them just say their name anyway.

I heard this information from the English voice actress for Mudkip.... Michele Knotz

MUD...... KIP!!!!!!

Yup... sometimes even they wonder why they do some things. :)

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Author - "Anything I ever really needed to know I learned from Anime"
Posted 1/12/09 , edited 1/12/09

Batarang wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


But of course things do need to be adjusted per nationalized taboos, racial taboos and so forth, but I'm not speaking of explicit contents. I'm not talking about abridging taboos. I am speaking of the changing of a story based not on taboos or explicit content, but for the fear that the audience is too dense to figure out racial differences. Because the producers of the Licenses are simply to lazy or just do not care to for a simple heading.

Your 'trainees' yes you need to know their physical limit, but thats only to train them to reach it. And if they wish to surpass it. It's not an excuse to simply not do it. Physical training is about reaching your potential and surpassing it if possible. If not then no harm no foul but you tried. Placing a small heading every so often in an anime, could be considered a educational movement to teach Americans, and in your case Canadians, emphasizes education of another culture. In through this education, people learn how other people think. In this way we can hope to bypass racial stereotypes and confusion should the two cultures come into conflict. While that may be a little innocent and naive, to be completely truthful, we do not know what the future will entail.

If we take the angelic layer example from my other post, I do not see a reason to change the slurping of udon and the eating noodles with your nose to be any different from each other. In American society it is considered impolite to slurp your noodles, while eating it through your nose is a much greater offense and considered disgusting, compared to rude of a slurp.

Naruto (whom I hate) is shown in Japan with a lot more bloodshed and death then shown in US, and I understand for the target audience it needed to be tone down. I completely understand about target audience. But it is being done to audaciously, because it needs to be dubbed it doesn't always need to be changed. People can learn of new culture and ideas by simply making a small sub.

And if that is too distracting for people..they don't have to pay attention to it? And while those who desire to learn, can still do so.

I would like to go further in detail about that idea of yours, but due to time constraint, I can only say right now that while education can be entertaining, but making entertainment educational is a completely different story all together.
Posted 1/12/09

DomFortress wrote:


Of course..without getting into any kind of arguments, I wouldn't mind a debate or discussion on it..please feel free to send me a msg if you want to continue to throw around some ideas.

But I will say that a simple line on the top of the screen is at the same time educational without brow beating the whole idea. Personally I think it would be of minor thing. People who care can learn and people who do not can ignore it.

Dubs aren't always bad, but if you ever seen the Tenchi series dub..::shudder:: those are bad

Posted 1/12/09

Batarang wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


Of course..without getting into any kind of arguments, I wouldn't mind a debate or discussion on it..please feel free to send me a msg if you want to continue to throw around some ideas.

But I will say that a simple line on the top of the screen is at the same time educational without brow beating the whole idea. Personally I think it would be of minor thing. People who care can learn and people who do not can ignore it.

Dubs aren't always bad, but if you ever seen the Tenchi series dub..::shudder:: those are bad


Remember those educational shorts at the end of most North American cartoons around the 80's? They're fine examples of making entertainment educational by keeping the story content separated with real educational facts.

And science programs like Beakman's World and Bill Nye The Science Guy, are fine examples of making education entertaining by programming real educational facts as a part of the story content.

Now, I've stated before that the bottom line for localization on licensed anime that's aimed to entertain a wide range of local audiences alike, is by delivering the story itself to the local audiences faithfully and truthfully. And by doing more than what it was supposed to do, any localization company will then be unprofessional for breaching their limit. Therefore when the majority of anime series are entertainment programs, a localizing production company like The Ocean Group(http://www.crystalacids.com/database/company/92/the-ocean-group/) can only go so far by keeping the anime series entertaining, without having editorial notes and/or production commentaries popping out all over the program. No matter how educational, insightful, and enlightening they might be.

However, the North American licensing companies also accommodate their audiences' search for knowledge. That's why they always include bonus materials like production sketches, editorial notes, interviews & commentaries and so on in their licensed anime medias. And they always translate the cast & crew of both the original and the local production teams.

Furthermore, anime fans like you and I, can always use open forum like this one, if we ever feel the need to go in depth about any story element within an anime. Without making our audiences confusing the anime program as another Mystery Science Theater 3000.
Posted 1/12/09

DomFortress wrote:


But thats if someone buys the DVD, but all those nice 'eggs' aren't found on the TV versions. I think like you I want more and more Anime on out TVs so that a vast majority can watch it, and other shows besides Naruto franchise and Bobobo bo boobooboo crud thats on now. Often when I watch anime I only see one or two things ever need to be explained with any kind of blurb. And thats kinda what I'm aiming at when I'm explaining. I agree if the Licensees throw tons of little blurbs on screen it will get distracting. and distract from the show way to much. And somethings can only be explained by watching.

I do not know how many times my wife has asked 'what do they mean by that' and I simply explain..'wait for it' and it's explained a couple minutes later. Some things can be explained simply by watching a faithfully dubbed or subbed anime. Other things that are not so easily explained can be done with a tiny blurb, before or after the show.

Some Fansubbed shows actually have a few as 20 seconds in the beginning of the show to explain something. Azumanga Daioh is a prime example. That Circle placed in the beginning of the show details about such things as festivals, different types of mythical monsters or the Umbrella monster and so forth. These are quite viable solutions. Most people uninterested can treat it as an extra commercial. Others can actually learn something. And it's not so 'in your face' as to be done more then once.

Again I'm not speaking so educational as the wonderful Bill Nye the Science guy or Beakman's world. Nothing so educational that it loses the audience. Just a small blurb at the beginning or even the end of the show. If placing a small blurb during the show when something foreign or differently cultural comes up..then a blurb at the front of end of the show could even more indepth explain.

As for the idea of going online to to an open forum to find explanations. I think you would lose even more of the audience if they had to do that. Or they would lose interest. I rather keep their interest with a blurb then force the usually lazy American audience to have to search for answers. And still..Thats under the impression that the anime will even be faithfully dubbed, if the licensees even care to faithfully follow the plot and storyline. Or if the difference is so vast that instead of explaining it, they opt to write their own story and simply transcribe it to the anime.
Posted 1/12/09

Batarang wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


But thats if someone buys the DVD, but all those nice 'eggs' aren't found on the TV versions. I think like you I want more and more Anime on out TVs so that a vast majority can watch it, and other shows besides Naruto franchise and Bobobo bo boobooboo crud thats on now. Often when I watch anime I only see one or two things ever need to be explained with any kind of blurb. And thats kinda what I'm aiming at when I'm explaining. I agree if the Licensees throw tons of little blurbs on screen it will get distracting. and distract from the show way to much. And somethings can only be explained by watching.

I do not know how many times my wife has asked 'what do they mean by that' and I simply explain..'wait for it' and it's explained a couple minutes later. Some things can be explained simply by watching a faithfully dubbed or subbed anime. Other things that are not so easily explained can be done with a tiny blurb, before or after the show.

Some Fansubbed shows actually have a few as 20 seconds in the beginning of the show to explain something. Azumanga Daioh is a prime example. That Circle placed in the beginning of the show details about such things as festivals, different types of mythical monsters or the Umbrella monster and so forth. These are quite viable solutions. Most people uninterested can treat it as an extra commercial. Others can actually learn something. And it's not so 'in your face' as to be done more then once.

Again I'm not speaking so educational as the wonderful Bill Nye the Science guy or Beakman's world. Nothing so educational that it loses the audience. Just a small blurb at the beginning or even the end of the show. If placing a small blurb during the show when something foreign or differently cultural comes up..then a blurb at the front of end of the show could even more indepth explain.

As for the idea of going online to to an open forum to find explanations. I think you would lose even more of the audience if they had to do that. Or they would lose interest. I rather keep their interest with a blurb then force the usually lazy American audience to have to search for answers. And still..Thats under the impression that the anime will even be faithfully dubbed, if the licensees even care to faithfully follow the plot and storyline. Or if the difference is so vast that instead of explaining it, they opt to write their own story and simply transcribe it to the anime.

At least your wife bothered to ask you on the spot. When I was watching my super robot anime with my girlfriend, I had to wait until she calms down before I can even open my mouth to say something remotely intelligent like "so what do you think." There's a time when the audiences are simply just confused about what's going on with the story, as opposed to amuse the audience by keeping themselves interested with the confusions. And it's the job for all entertainment business to know how to differentiate those two.

Fansub groups had been adding those translation notes before from time to time, but anime licensing companies never failed to include those as special bonus on their special collector edition medias. After all, anime is a luxury, while it's everyone's right to pursuit knowledge at their own pace. The process of forcing information onto people doesn't make them feel good about themselves, believe me.

Posted 1/12/09 , edited 1/12/09

DomFortress wrote:


Yeah I can understand that

The problem with leaving it on special bonus is once more your leaving it on a 25-40 dollar DVD that many people will not buy. I personally don't see it as forcing as much as informing. If one is to remain faithful to the anime thats being shown, that means little translation. Stories do not always translate well, especially when your delving into a different culture. So I believe there has to be some information. If people are not informed even if a little bit..then how does one remain faithful to a Storyline thats been created by and for another culture. With that Culture's belief and standards.

Notwithstanding changes made for age and content (too much gratuitous anything) How do you faithfully translate a story? The only way then to do it is through small bits of information thats imparted to the audience. I do not believe you can have it both ways. I do not believe you can be faithful when your talking to completely opposite cultures. A Japanese friend of mine currently working in the Japanese Diet once said to me. That he enjoyed American's fresh ideas and beliefs. But that the language often made him shudder. English was extremely Straightforward compared to Japanese. And westerners often had the same beliefs.

To be faithful to the story I believe the audience needs reference points. If they do not have even the minute reference then the story has to be changed to reference the audience's knowledge. Once that happens..how do you remain faithful.

Remember I'm not speaking DVD..I'm speaking TV. DVD one can access all the nice 'nesteggs' but on TV one needs some reference to remain completely faithful to the story.

Anyway not to argue. Just my opinion.

Posted 1/12/09

Batarang wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


Yeah I can understand that

The problem with leaving it on special bonus is once more your leaving it on a 25-40 dollar DVD that many people will not buy. I personally don't see it as forcing as much as informing. If one is to remain faithful to the anime thats being shown, that means little translation. Stories do not always translate well, especially when your delving into a different culture. So I believe there has to be some information. If people are not informed even if a little bit..then how does one remain faithful to a Storyline thats been created by and for another culture. With that Culture's belief and standards.

Notwithstanding changes made for age and content (too much gratuitous anything) How do you faithfully translate a story? The only way then to do it is through small bits of information thats imparted to the audience. I do not believe you can have it both ways. I do not believe you can be faithful when your talking to completely opposite cultures. A Japanese friend of mine currently working in the Japanese Diet once said to me. That he enjoyed American's fresh ideas and beliefs. But that the language often made him shudder. English was extremely Straightforward compared to Japanese. And westerners often had the same beliefs.

To be faithful to the story I believe the audience needs reference points. If they do not have even the minute reference then the story has to be changed to reference the audience's knowledge. Once that happens..how do you remain faithful.

Remember I'm not speaking DVD..I'm speaking TV. DVD one can access all the nice 'nesteggs' but on TV one needs some reference to remain completely faithful to the story.

Anyway not to argue. Just my opinion.


No way man, unless you've got my kind of luck on dating my girlfriend; when we can only manage to see each other once on a monthly bases due to our busy schedule, and it just happens to be on her time of the month again and again. You've no idea just how unreasonable women can be. Thank goodness for menstrual pain med.

broadcasting editorial notes before and/or after a TV program is almost unheard of, let alone for an entertainment program. It might be possible for PPV networks, but when every seconds count on the regular TV networks, I don't think any company would like to have their commercials cut short due to some editorial notes.
Posted 1/12/09

DomFortress wrote:


Yeah I can understand that..My wife is the gentlest woman I've ever known..until that time of the month. Then I usually hide out in the den with my son. And if she yells for something to get done, I send the poor boy to do it. ::shudder:: it's one of the many perks of having kids..


PPV maybe..or even on an Anime channel would probably fit. But your right, I think most TV channels will not like added time on a show to take away from commercial time. But I can dream right ?


Anyway I'm out. I got a long drive tomorrow so I will not be able to continue till later..Good conversation!
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Posted 1/12/09
Even so, A half japanese myself coudnt stand this so called "anime dubbing", for a simple reason

-English,Spanish,Pilipino and etc. voice actors dont seem to take they're job seriously(lack of passion on voice acting compare to japanese voice actors) *strongly pointing at that Naruto's female voice actor*




Posted 1/12/09


Interesting conversation....although at times it seems like a TMI fest...X_X. I can already hear some of the younger kids asking "whats a menstrual period?". lmao

Personally i think people should be playfully "forced" to learn more about the japanese traditions watching anime as the japanese culture has been influenced to some degree by the western culture.
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Posted 1/13/09
I prefer subs over dubs. Are really that lazy just reading subs? D:
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