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Anime that Appeals to Lolicons
Anyien 
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Posted 1/19/09 , edited 1/19/09

DomFortress wrote:

Up until CR presented to the anime industry that there is a demand for anime streaming on the internet, and they can profit by legalizing the online supply, just what had the internet fansub groups been doing besides their copyright infringing actions?


If they just look at the popularity of streaming sites they should have understood that this is the way to go, they probably even did understand but they still kept going after their outdated methods.

If they had followed in the Fansubbers path and thrown away their outdated policies they would probably had a much bigger audience and sales than now. But it´s easy to see that they don´t even try, even when they give CR permission to stream their shows they still don´t allow everyone to see them.

A policy like that will only hurt them and eventually kill them.


DomFortress wrote:

Also, due to supply and demand, anime industry had to be forced to supply a niche and unhealthy audiences' demand, by make anime title like KnJ. In order to survive the illegal competition from the internet fansub groups.


I really don´t see that they were forced to do anything. The KnJ manga is really popular so thinking that they could make a profit on that they decided to make a Anime out of it. This was not something they did in desperation, this was something they did to make money.

And i really don´t see how making shows like KnJ would make it any better for them. I found out about KnJ from Fansubs, i saw it with Fansubs, just like everyone else did.

So tell me, where is the big profit in making KnJ? The episodes was out just hours or the next day after it aired. It didn't take long for the DVD version to be subbed and released after that one came out either.

So the companies didn't earn more on it nor did they "win" anything on it. They made it because it was popular not because they had no choice.

Even if they would earn 10 times or even 100 times more than now they would still make shows like KnJ because they are popular and people want to see them.


mrsentimental wrote:

Well, if it's the "just cute" stuff like Clannad, shouldn't be any problem. The child porn stuff makes us Anime enthusiasts look REAL BAD! There has already been lots of posts on this controversial topic.


Lol, people think we are strange and bad even without KnJ or similar shows. And you have to remember that these shows are made for the Japanese audience and they actually find it interesting.


mrsentimental wrote:

I see the usual suspects answering your post here, and trying hard to not look like pedophiles. They know who they are.


And i see that you are still alive and here...........

and when did i become a pedophile? I like Lolicon, not real children, not that way at least..........


stevevagn wrote:

lolicon is just another word for pediphile, a type of Paraphilia
Paraphilias: a sexual disorder in which the person's preferred method of sexual arousal and fulfillment is through sexual behavior that is unusual or socially unacceptable
Paraphilias called PEDOPHILIA: deriving sexual arousal and pleasure from touching or having sexual relations with prepubescent (non-sexually mature) children or fantasizing about such contact
Pedophile: A person who has recurring sexual thoughts fantasies, or engages in sexual actions toward prepubescent children

you learn this type of stuff in psyc


In Japan it is know as both, yes. But that´s only because they don´t have own word for the real thing. The Western World have a own word for it therefor Lolicon is only used when we talk about drawings.


TK21 wrote:

lol... now u got me thinking, why the hell did i watch kodomo no jikan...
AND Ive got an answer:
I watched it for the story. It was a pretty good story imho. Maybe the DVD edition is a bit out there.


If you liked the story in the Anime then read the Manga it´s way better, but it´s also much darker than the Anime.
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I watched Kodomo no Jikan and thought it had an interesting and dramatic story. I noticed things like this when I looked BEYOND the extreme lolicon content. Much like how I watched Grenadier and enjoyed the awesome gun action even though there was a lot of emphasis on boobs. Yes, there are a lot of anime out there that have heavy sexual content (of varying degrees of decency), but some of these can be enjoyed for more than that.
Posted 1/19/09 , edited 1/19/09

Anyien wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

Up until CR presented to the anime industry that there is a demand for anime streaming on the internet, and they can profit by legalizing the online supply, just what had the internet fansub groups been doing besides their copyright infringing actions?


If they just look at the popularity of streaming sites they should have understood that this is the way to go, they probably even did understand but they still kept going after their outdated methods.

If they had followed in the Fansubbers path and thrown away their outdated policies they would probably had a much bigger audience and sales than now. But it´s easy to see that they don´t even try, even when they give CR permission to stream their shows they still don´t allow everyone to see them.

A policy like that will only hurt them and eventually kill them.


DomFortress wrote:

Also, due to supply and demand, anime industry had to be forced to supply a niche and unhealthy audiences' demand, by make anime title like KnJ. In order to survive the illegal competition from the internet fansub groups.


I really don´t see that they were forced to do anything. The KnJ manga is really popular so thinking that they could make a profit on that they decided to make a Anime out of it. This was not something they did in desperation, this was something they did to make money.

And i really don´t see how making shows like KnJ would make it any better for them. I found out about KnJ from Fansubs, i saw it with Fansubs, just like everyone else did.

So tell me, where is the big profit in making KnJ? The episodes was out just hours or the next day after it aired. It didn't take long for the DVD version to be subbed and released after that one came out either.

So the companies didn't earn more on it nor did they "win" anything on it. They made it because it was popular not because they had no choice.

Even if they would earn 10 times or even 100 times more than now they would still make shows like KnJ because they are popular and people want to see them.

I almost regret of mentioning the illegitimate fansubs as an afterthought, because you just went off-topic like you were defending your right of pirating. But what you should be explaining is the how and why you thought lolicon, pedophilia, and virtual child pornographic materials are popular in the Japanese society when the truth is, they're not.

Let's pretend that you were right about lolicon, pedophilia, and virtual child pornography are being so acceptable by the majority, that it is popular in Japan. Then by definition, we should be seeing legalized marriage between minors(age 5 - 11) in the Japanese society right about now. So just what's the U.S. Embassy in Japan has to say about that:

http://tokyo.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7114a.html

Who Can Get Married in Japan?
Article 731 to 737 of the Japanese Civil Code stipulates the following requirements:

The male partner must be 18 years of age or older and the female partner must be 16 years of age or older.

In addition, for Americans, you must be able to legally marry in your home state; if the legal age of marriage at home is 18, you cannot marry earlier than that in Japan.

A woman cannot get married within six months of the dissolution of her previous marriage. According to Japanese law, this is to avoid confusion as to the identification of a child's father if a birth occurs close in time to the end of the marriage.

Most people related by blood, by adoption or through other marriages cannot get married in Japan.

A person who is under 20 years of age cannot get married in Japan without a parent's approval.

Hm, that sure doesn't look like a society that accepts marriage between minors. In fact, here's what INTERPOL has to say about child protection act in Japan:

http://www.interpol.int/public/Children/SexualAbuse/NationalLaws/csaJapan.asp

I. Ages for legal purposes

Article 2 - Definitions

For the purpose of this Law, a 'child' means a person under the age of 18 years.

Age of majority

The Article 3 of the Japanese Civil Code states that the age of majority is twenty (20) years old.

Age of consent for sexual activity

The Article 177 of the Penal Code puts the age of consent for sexual actitvity at thirteen (13) years.

Age of consent for marriage

Articles 731 and 737 of the Civil Code provides that the age of consent for marriage is eighteen (18) years for men, and sixteen (16) for women.

But when a minor wants to get married, he or she needs the consent of his or her parents
.

So this whole time that you're saying that lolicon, pedophilia, and virtual child pornography are being so acceptable by the majority, that it is popular in Japan, is a complete hoax! In fact, You have no idea just what's the majority of the Japanese audiences think about anime with explicit content of virtual child pornography, because you're not Japanese and you don't live in Japan. However you've been illegally watching these anime via illegitimate fansubs. Therefore your perception on the Japanese society, and the world around you for that matter, was warped because you've been exposed of unregulated release and distribution of illegal materials with explicit content of virtual child pornography.

Furthermore, here are some of my practical wisdom regarding intimate relationship with a minor; I can't condone intimate relationship of any kind with minors in real life. I personally see myself as an elder, mentor, and protector to these minors. And while they can't possibly be ready to take on their responsibilities for their own actions, I OTOH can't even consider them to be my partner in family and in life as they are. Because a minor just cannot support & provide the needs of an adult, that's why they're minors no matter how mature they think they are. It's for the same reason that I cannot condone intimate relationship among minors themselves.

Now if a situation of intimacy with minors did occur in a fictional work, I can tolerate it as long as it was accidental, comical, and/or sincere. Those are like mild fan-service which I'm rather accustom with by watching Gainax's works(when you can sit through anime like Oruchuban Ebichu, you can pretty much take on anything Gainax could throw at you). However when an intimate relationship with minors occurred in a sexual, lustful, and/or seductive manner in a fictional work, then it's taboo, immoral, and quite simply wrong.
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Posted 1/19/09
I don't watch loli for the sexual jazz, I watch it for the moe/cuteness.
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Mr_Irritable wrote:

It's a dodgy subject, and it's something that crosses a lot of fans minds at least once at some point or another. I'm talking about lolicon (and it's less-prevalent counterpart, shotacon). From time to time, you may notice a younger-looking character in an outfit that someone who looks their age probably shouldn't be wearing. Now it isn't uncommon to see anime characters in outfits that most conventional people would wear, but what happens when a young girl (or boy as the case may be sometimes) is wearing such an outfit? Japan is much more lenient with this kind of material than the US or Canada would be, so it leaves me wondering...

Are the situations of what appears to be subtle fanservice for lolicons intentional? You see, anime isn't natural. Someone has to design it and draw it. The characters obviously aren't real people, and it's up to the artists to decide what they make their characters wear, or how they make them act. I believe it just might be, but in other situations, it's possible a younger character may have been accidentally designed to appeal to such an audience.

I'm curious. What do the rest of you think about it? What do you think of the people who enjoy it? What about the people who make it and sell it? There's obviously money to be made in it, so it isn't as uncommon as many people would like to think.


What is the big fuss? of course it is intentional. As long as it stay in the drawing and not real life, there is no problem. But i guess Japan is a problem, there's more sex offenders and pedophiles there than anywhere else.
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Posted 1/19/09
Delicious /cake/ nuff said.
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Posted 1/19/09

CptJackSwallows wrote:

Delicious /cake/ nuff said.
... /cake/ was going to be brought up sooner or later.
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Posted 1/19/09 , edited 1/19/09


I always find it hard to believe you're the moral man you say you are, it just sound like lies, it feel like everything you are against is everything you support, if such a man exist, i am sure he wouldn't be an otaku in his 30 wasting his time on anime forum arguing with teenagers. You say you a fitness trainer? your body tell another tale.

Oh, and dont give me that crap about how i am personally attacking you and you will no further reply, i am just stating the facts.
Posted 1/19/09

rexxar wrote:


Mr_Irritable wrote:

It's a dodgy subject, and it's something that crosses a lot of fans minds at least once at some point or another. I'm talking about lolicon (and it's less-prevalent counterpart, shotacon). From time to time, you may notice a younger-looking character in an outfit that someone who looks their age probably shouldn't be wearing. Now it isn't uncommon to see anime characters in outfits that most conventional people would wear, but what happens when a young girl (or boy as the case may be sometimes) is wearing such an outfit? Japan is much more lenient with this kind of material than the US or Canada would be, so it leaves me wondering...

Are the situations of what appears to be subtle fanservice for lolicons intentional? You see, anime isn't natural. Someone has to design it and draw it. The characters obviously aren't real people, and it's up to the artists to decide what they make their characters wear, or how they make them act. I believe it just might be, but in other situations, it's possible a younger character may have been accidentally designed to appeal to such an audience.

I'm curious. What do the rest of you think about it? What do you think of the people who enjoy it? What about the people who make it and sell it? There's obviously money to be made in it, so it isn't as uncommon as many people would like to think.


What is the big fuss? of course it is intentional. As long as it stay in the drawing and not real life, there is no problem. But i guess Japan is a problem, there's more sex offenders and pedophiles there than anywhere else.

And you learn that from watching anime? Now talk about adding insult to injury.

Unless you haven't been following Japanese current events, you should know that Japan is a country with some of the lowest crime rate around the world: http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ja-japan/cri-crime
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Posted 1/19/09 , edited 1/19/09

DomFortress wrote:


rexxar wrote:


Mr_Irritable wrote:

It's a dodgy subject, and it's something that crosses a lot of fans minds at least once at some point or another. I'm talking about lolicon (and it's less-prevalent counterpart, shotacon). From time to time, you may notice a younger-looking character in an outfit that someone who looks their age probably shouldn't be wearing. Now it isn't uncommon to see anime characters in outfits that most conventional people would wear, but what happens when a young girl (or boy as the case may be sometimes) is wearing such an outfit? Japan is much more lenient with this kind of material than the US or Canada would be, so it leaves me wondering...

Are the situations of what appears to be subtle fanservice for lolicons intentional? You see, anime isn't natural. Someone has to design it and draw it. The characters obviously aren't real people, and it's up to the artists to decide what they make their characters wear, or how they make them act. I believe it just might be, but in other situations, it's possible a younger character may have been accidentally designed to appeal to such an audience.

I'm curious. What do the rest of you think about it? What do you think of the people who enjoy it? What about the people who make it and sell it? There's obviously money to be made in it, so it isn't as uncommon as many people would like to think.


What is the big fuss? of course it is intentional. As long as it stay in the drawing and not real life, there is no problem. But i guess Japan is a problem, there's more sex offenders and pedophiles there than anywhere else.

And you learn that from watching anime? Now talk about adding insult to injury.

Unless you haven't been following Japanese current events, you should know that Japan is a country with some of the lowest crime rate around the world: http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ja-japan/cri-crime


Oh i am sorry, unlikes you, i have a life. And i thought we talking about sex crime here. Also i doubt not too many report crimes there.
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Posted 1/19/09

rexxar wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


rexxar wrote:


Mr_Irritable wrote:

It's a dodgy subject, and it's something that crosses a lot of fans minds at least once at some point or another. I'm talking about lolicon (and it's less-prevalent counterpart, shotacon). From time to time, you may notice a younger-looking character in an outfit that someone who looks their age probably shouldn't be wearing. Now it isn't uncommon to see anime characters in outfits that most conventional people would wear, but what happens when a young girl (or boy as the case may be sometimes) is wearing such an outfit? Japan is much more lenient with this kind of material than the US or Canada would be, so it leaves me wondering...

Are the situations of what appears to be subtle fanservice for lolicons intentional? You see, anime isn't natural. Someone has to design it and draw it. The characters obviously aren't real people, and it's up to the artists to decide what they make their characters wear, or how they make them act. I believe it just might be, but in other situations, it's possible a younger character may have been accidentally designed to appeal to such an audience.

I'm curious. What do the rest of you think about it? What do you think of the people who enjoy it? What about the people who make it and sell it? There's obviously money to be made in it, so it isn't as uncommon as many people would like to think.


What is the big fuss? of course it is intentional. As long as it stay in the drawing and not real life, there is no problem. But i guess Japan is a problem, there's more sex offenders and pedophiles there than anywhere else.

And you learn that from watching anime? Now talk about adding insult to injury.

Unless you haven't been following Japanese current events, you should know that Japan is a country with some of the lowest crime rate around the world: http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ja-japan/cri-crime


Oh i am sorry, unlikes you, i have a life. And i thought we talking about sex crime here. Also i doubt not too many report crimes there.


It would be Amsterdam from what I read in the newspapers...
Anyien 
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Posted 1/19/09

DomFortress wrote:

I almost regret of mentioning the illegitimate fansubs as an afterthought, because you just went off-topic like you were defending your right of pirating. But what you should be explaining is the how and why you thought lolicon, pedophilia, and virtual child pornographic materials are popular in the Japanese society when the truth is, they're not.


They´re not?

Let´s see, they have a convention, several magazines and not to mention DLSite sells a lot of it and several games is made and being made, if people didn't like lolicon do you really think they would have so much material of it?


DomFortress wrote:

Let's pretend that you were right about lolicon, pedophilia, and virtual child pornography are being so acceptable by the majority, that it is popular in Japan. Then by definition, we should be seeing legalized marriage between minors(age 5 - 11) in the Japanese society right about now. So just what's the U.S. Embassy in Japan has to say about that:

http://tokyo.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7114a.html

Who Can Get Married in Japan?
Article 731 to 737 of the Japanese Civil Code stipulates the following requirements:

The male partner must be 18 years of age or older and the female partner must be 16 years of age or older.

In addition, for Americans, you must be able to legally marry in your home state; if the legal age of marriage at home is 18, you cannot marry earlier than that in Japan.

A woman cannot get married within six months of the dissolution of her previous marriage. According to Japanese law, this is to avoid confusion as to the identification of a child's father if a birth occurs close in time to the end of the marriage.

Most people related by blood, by adoption or through other marriages cannot get married in Japan.

A person who is under 20 years of age cannot get married in Japan without a parent's approval.

Hm, that sure doesn't look like a society that accepts marriage between minors. In fact, here's what INTERPOL has to say about child protection act in Japan:

http://www.interpol.int/public/Children/SexualAbuse/NationalLaws/csaJapan.asp

I. Ages for legal purposes

Article 2 - Definitions

For the purpose of this Law, a 'child' means a person under the age of 18 years.

Age of majority

The Article 3 of the Japanese Civil Code states that the age of majority is twenty (20) years old.

Age of consent for sexual activity

The Article 177 of the Penal Code puts the age of consent for sexual actitvity at thirteen (13) years.

Age of consent for marriage

Articles 731 and 737 of the Civil Code provides that the age of consent for marriage is eighteen (18) years for men, and sixteen (16) for women.

But when a minor wants to get married, he or she needs the consent of his or her parents
.

So this whole time that you're saying that lolicon, pedophilia, and virtual child pornography are being so acceptable by the majority, that it is popular in Japan, is a complete hoax! In fact, You have no idea just what's the majority of the Japanese audiences think about anime with explicit content of virtual child pornography, because you're not Japanese and you don't live in Japan.


I really have to ask you. Who was talking about marriage and real children??????

The Western meaning of lolicon is DRAWINGS, i have never said anything about real children or marriage. We are talking about lolicon here, nothing real......

And it´s true that i don´t live in Japan, my meaning was that the Japanese people are not so narrowminded and living in the past like the Western world is. Even if they don´t like it most of them accept it and understand that it´s just fiction.


DomFortress wrote:

However you've been illegally watching these anime via illegitimate fansubs. Therefore your perception on the Japanese society, and the world around you for that matter, was warped because you've been exposed of unregulated release and distribution of illegal materials with explicit content of virtual child pornography.


Unregulated?

KnJ was censored when it aired on TV because it was on day time so even children could see it. After it ended they released the DVD that was uncensored because by setting a age limit on it they could prevent children to get their hands on it.

The same with Chocotto Sister, when it was aired in day time it was censored, but when the DVD was released it was uncensored.

This have actually become a trend now, if the Anime have some scenes that children should not watch it is censored while it´s aired on TV and uncensored when it´s out on DVD.


DomFortress wrote:

Furthermore, here are some of my practical wisdom regarding intimate relationship with a minor; I can't condone intimate relationship of any kind with minors in real life. I personally see myself as an elder, mentor, and protector to these minors. And while they can't possibly be ready to take on their responsibilities for their own actions, I OTOH can't even consider them to be my partner in family and in life as they are. Because a minor just cannot support & provide the needs of an adult, that's why they're minors no matter how mature they think they are. It's for the same reason that I cannot condone intimate relationship among minors themselves.


And i still don´t see what this have to do with lolicon.....


DomFortress wrote:

Now if a situation of intimacy with minors did occur in a fictional work, I can tolerate it as long as it was accidental, comical, and/or sincere. Those are like mild fan-service which I'm rather accustom with by watching Gainax's works(when you can sit through anime like Oruchuban Ebichu, you can pretty much take on anything Gainax could throw at you). However when an intimate relationship with minors occurred in a sexual, lustful, and/or seductive manner in a fictional work, then it's taboo, immoral, and quite simply wrong.


And that´s where the western world still lives in 1800.

People need to understand that this is pure fantasy, it have nothing to do with real children or anything.

It´s just a story made up and put on paper, and if other people like it, it may be made into a animation.
Posted 1/19/09

holy_may wrote:


rexxar wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


rexxar wrote:


Mr_Irritable wrote:



What is the big fuss? of course it is intentional. As long as it stay in the drawing and not real life, there is no problem. But i guess Japan is a problem, there's more sex offenders and pedophiles there than anywhere else.

And you learn that from watching anime? Now talk about adding insult to injury.

Unless you haven't been following Japanese current events, you should know that Japan is a country with some of the lowest crime rate around the world: http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ja-japan/cri-crime


Oh i am sorry, unlikes you, i have a life. And i thought we talking about sex crime here. Also i doubt not too many report crimes there.


It would be Amsterdam from what I read in the newspapers...

Netherlands is at #22 with 0.100445 per 1,000 people of rapes per capital, as oppose to Japan at #54 with 0.017737 per 1,000 people of rapes per capital: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

However, rexxar does have a point. The reported crime rate is 58% for Netherlands at #2, as oppose to 39% for Japan at #17: http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_rep_to_pol-crime-reporting-to-police

Still, the fact remains that Mr. Sourpuss here doesn't have any concrete evidence to proof his statement that Japan has more sex offenders and pedophiles than anywhere else. And that's what I want to address.
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If you focus too much on the loli content-- and get put off by it, then you're going to miss out on the good shows. There are times when their "loli-ness" are plot points or just a matter of artistic style or source material. Their appearance is also usually intended to arouse sympathy or give off cutesy vibes rather than having a sexual focus, depending on the nature of the show. Of course there's also the matter of them being for the sake of being there but I'd rather not delve deeper into that-- it's too shallow a matter after all.

Plot point examples(though some may seem forced)
Gunslinger Girl: The upgrades and conditioning work more efficiently on younger subjects thus the girls, not to mention you'd have more options for covert ops given their appearance. If they were fully-grown men instead, it probably wouldn't have as sad and you probably wouldn't have cared as much.

Strike Witches: Magical powers at are their prime during the 12th-20th years of age. Also, they are more prevalent on women though male examples are not unheard of. There are also artistic issues being based of Mecha Shoujo and all.

Ai Enma(Jigoku Shoujo): Important part of her backstory being a human sacrifice. It also makes her appearance all the more unnerving.

Kodomo no Jikan: The kids' abnormal sexual knowledge *is* a plot point.

Ichigo Mashimaro: It's slice-of-life series about pre-pubescent kids and a college student.

Artistic style examples:
Hidamari Sketch
Lucky Star
Gakuen Utopia Manabi Straight

There are others but since I haven't watched them, I can't say much.

tl;dr: I like my lolis and if you're put off by them then we don't have much to talk about.
Posted 1/19/09

Anyien wrote:



Let´s see, they have a convention, several magazines and not to mention DLSite sells a lot of it and several games is made and being made, if people didn't like lolicon do you really think they would have so much material of it?

Once again, I ask you to pay attention on how the practical wisdom of supply and demand works; if you don't have a demand for the supply yet, then make it look like there is with media whitewashing, aka advertisement. Seriously, do you know the sales figures of all those lolicon related merchandises, thereby you know for a fact that a majority of people in Japan are actually buying those products and considering lolicon to be popular in Japan?


We are talking about lolicon here, nothing real......

And it´s true that i don´t live in Japan, my meaning was that the Japanese people are not so narrowminded and living in the past like the Western world is. Even if they don´t like it most of them accept it and understand that it´s just fiction.

When the majority of people cannot tolerate a social taboo in real life, then they can't even fantasize it to gain pleasure from it, period. Otherwise, their law would've legalize such social behavior, thereby not making it a taboo. That's the practical wisdom of a law obeying society, as oppose to your own double-standard just for yourself to enjoy lolicon, which it's just hypocrisy.


Unregulated?

Yes, unregulated. Otherwise how did you saw KnJ without you purchasing the authentic R2 Japanese anime DVD? By watching unregulated release and distribution of illegitimate fansubs, made from illegal raw files of copyrighted & licensed KnJ DVD rips. And those were from your statement.


People need to understand that this is pure fantasy, it have nothing to do with real children or anything.

It´s just a story made up and put on paper, and if other people like it, it may be made into a animation.

And apparently, you personally liked lolicon so much, that you would commit copyright infringement just to obtain it. If you did obtain KnJ anime DVD legally, then I wouldn't have a problem with you and your legal privacy. But you committed a crime first and foremost by viewing and possessing of illegal virtual child pornography, in the form of illegitimate KnJ fansubs.
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