Remove this ad
First  Prev  1  2  Next  Last
China, Tibet Myth and reality
3607 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
18 / F
Offline
Posted 10/12/09 , edited 10/12/09
maybe China shouldn't free Tibet after all..
What American citizens hear on the news about China and Tibet arent everything.
They hold "Free Tibet" movements probably without knowing the dark side of what they are friggin supporting!
174 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
24 / M / truly fukked up p...
Offline
Posted 2/14/10
what's the point ?
1394 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
23 / M
Offline
Posted 4/16/10
Well, to be fair, the Dalai Lama doesn't want independence, just semi-autonomy. After all, Tibet is the land of ensnaring tourist's wallet with Snake-Oil and Bag o' Magical Cow dung (50$ each). It is raking in huge profit for China, and if China does grant the semi-autonomy the Dalai Lama desires, and invite him back, imagine the amount of mindless white tourist coming in just to gain the 'mystical experience of ShariLa'.
5 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
27 / F
Offline
Posted 5/3/10
This is sooo one-sided until it's ridiculous. Shinto-male, you're on such a crusade to prove a point about some sort of Western-made conspiracy regarding Tibet, but why aren't you posting anything from the Tibetan point of view? All of the essays you've posted have been from the eyes of an outsider looking in (including the one that was narrated in third person about someone being abused by their landlord...as if that's something that happened to every Tibetan).

I don't think it's so much that you feel like non-Tibetans have more authority and knowledge about Tibet, but moreso that you are trying so hard to prove a point that you are weeding out anything that might jeopardize the message that you're trying to send about how everything is such a lie.

Lessen your biases, please.
1394 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
23 / M
Offline
Posted 5/3/10

fvnyc wrote:

This is sooo one-sided until it's ridiculous. Shinto-male, you're on such a crusade to prove a point about some sort of Western-made conspiracy regarding Tibet, but why aren't you posting anything from the Tibetan point of view? All of the essays you've posted have been from the eyes of an outsider looking in (including the one that was narrated in third person about someone being abused by their landlord...as if that's something that happened to every Tibetan).

I don't think it's so much that you feel like non-Tibetans have more authority and knowledge about Tibet, but moreso that you are trying so hard to prove a point that you are weeding out anything that might jeopardize the message that you're trying to send about how everything is such a lie.

Lessen your biases, please.


Well, to be fair, Tibet wasn't the 'Sun-shine and Roses' everyone made it out to be before China.
2267 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
31 / M / Toronto, Canada
Offline
Posted 5/3/10

shinto-male wrote:

Where Did All The Tibetans Go?
by Grain


I'm a Mongolian Chinese American. My 26th generation grandfather had been a prime minister to Kubilai Khan's grandson in the Yuan Dynasty. Ever since two years ago, I have been trying to call America's attention to the real minorities in China, who live in central China instead of in the bordering autonomous regions.

When I first began telling people about the forgotten minorities in China, some people reacted with skepticism. They thought that only a handful of minorities lived in central China. It was difficult for me to convince them that their concept is wrong.

Many of them base their impression of minority population in China based on academic figures from books they read, which cite anywhere from 6% to 8.9%, "with the majority of the population in autonomous regions". I have to say this runs totally contradictory to most of the Chinese people's real experience in China. If you ask any Chinese who grew up around central China, or Taiwan they will tell you, "Minority people are everywhere in China!"

In my experience, it wasn't at all uncommon to run into minorities in Taiwan. In my first grade class of 32, our teacher was Manchurian, I was Mongol, and another girl was Miao. That's one incident of 10% minority. One can say it's a fluke; 3 out of 32 isn't that hard to happen by accident. Yet I know in my heart it is probably closer to the norm. Very often, newspaper articles about movie stars, writers, and politicians would include a brief word about their minority blood. This isn't the focus of those articles, but comments in the passing. Do luminaries tend to be minority? Certainly not true. Among the ordinary people, we would hear someone say, "I'm tall because my parents were Manchurian." And we won't even blink, because we know minorities are everywhere.

Most of us are quite desensitized toward minorities around us. I recently walked into an overseas Chinese bookstore, chatted with a clerk for 20 minutes, and finally mentioned I am a Mongol, to which she replied, "I'm a Manchurian." This was in the United States! Neither of us blinked at all.

As I mull over the census figures, I know they don't sound right. If indeed there are only 6% to 8% minority people, and most of them are in bordering regions, then the central area should have only 1% to 2%. Somehow 1% to 2% sounds too low.

Why is there such a discrepancy between real experience and "census" figures?

Finally, I began to work out a set of figures based on my own family, which helped me understand the situation. I began with a mathematical calculation. According to my family tree, including my children, there have been 27 generations since the Yuan Dynasty days. Assuming 2 children who reach adulthood per generation, then from 1290 A.D. there are now 67 million descendants. Astounding? Here is the math:

1. 1
2. 2
3. 4
4. 8
5. 16
6. 32
7. 64
8. 128
9. 256
10. 512
11. 1024
12. 2048
13. 4096
14. 8192
15. 16384
16. 32768
17. 65536
18. 131072
19. 262144
20. 524288
21. 1048576
22. 2097152
23. 4194304
24. 8388608
25. 16777216
26. 33554432
27. 67108864

Yes, 67 million from one family.

Yet, most of these descendants would NOT be counted in a Chinese census for minorities, due to two factors:

Factor 1)
China is a patriarchal society. All children follow their fathers' line of family. Of the 67 million possible descendents, half of them may very well be female. Of the 27 tiers of this family tree, any node with a female child ends, as far as the census is concerned, thereby eliminating her branch of future generations of BOTH male and female descendants. That cuts drastically from any survey China may hold on the minorities populations.

However, many people in China will tell you, "My grandmother is a Manchurian." It is quite normal for ordinary people to run into minorities. This is why the ethnic survey in China yields a deceivingly less minority population. But the people in China run into minorities everywhere.

Here in the U.S., most people judge their own ethnicity based on their skin color. Anyone with either an African American father or mother tends to be viewed as African American. Their children and grandchildren are often viewed as minority for generations. In China, minority census is hampered by the patriarch system.

Factor 2)
In China, the ethnic groups' autonomous regions also qualify as geological locations. Identification records do not ask for "ethnicity" but the geological location of family origin. In over 700 years of integration, many people have migrated. The records of the first few generation of migrants will reflect that they came from "Mongolia". After a few more generations, the records tend to reflect the newer geological location.

In my 1st grade class of 32 or so, there were three minority people. The Manchurian was registered as "from Beijing". The Mongol was "from Canton" (actually my grandfather didn't even live in Canton, but was in Hainan, an island off Canton.) The Miao was registered as from another province. None of us were registered as minorities. Yet we all know our own heritage. Wu Ur Kai-Xi, one of the student leaders in Tienanmen Square, is a minority from Xinjiang province. But he is now registered as a Taichung resident in Taiwan.

Despite that we don't show up on the census, many of us minorities in central China belong to family associations with people sharing the same last name. In China, our ancestors define who we are. Heritage is very important to us.

We should keep in mind: In the autonomous regions such as Tibet, nearly every one of the whole population is counted toward "minority population". This is why textbooks all over the West show a negligent number of minorities in central China, and contend that the vast minorities are "concentrated" in Tibet, Mongolia, Xinjiang.

The above figure of 67 million is assuming no war, nor epidemic, which central China did suffer some.

The Tibetan movement claims Tibet was a "peaceful country that had no disease, no hunger, until the Chinese invaded her." Common sense should make people ask, "Why is the Tibetan population only 6 million when a SINGLE family of Tibetans alive during the Yuan Dynasty days may have 67 million descendants now under such peaceful conditions?"

Where did all the Tibetans go?

The fact is: Many Tibetans-like migrants in the U.S. who had moved west to a better land-have migrated east into central China in a continuous integration process over the last 700 years. The move did not happen overnight. This is why Tibet is an inseparable part of China. Due to the number of mixed marriages in central China, people with Tibetan blood are everywhere. Tibetans are integral to the Chinese heritage.

Tibetans are part of the Chinese people.

This is why a Chinese student from the mainland tried to tell the Americans: "There are Tibetans all over China. One of them is a top general in the Chinese army. Another is a household name singer." It takes a base of many average people to produce a top general, and a household name singer. There are also people like the famous dissident Wei, who has never set foot on Tibet, but met a Tibetan girlfriend in central China. Evidence that Tibetans are all over China is prevalent.

The lies spread by the Tibetan movement can not be sustained. There are millions of Tibetan Chinese people in central China who will one day speak openly, and be heard. Right now some Tibetans have tried to speak, but they have been labeled as "Chinese propaganda".

One of my foremost concerns is for the Tibetan Chinese children who live in central China. They are like me. When I was growing up, I used to enjoy looking at the map of China while sitting in a geography class in China. I smiled when I saw how big Mongolia-my part of the country-was. I knew Mongolia was the autonomous home region for my ethnicity, and looked forward to going there to meet all my fellow Mongolians.

Outer Mongolia became independent under the Russians' engineering, and nobody in the world realized what it did to me. I was saddened, sitting in my classroom, feeling my part of the country just became small. Had Inner Mongolia left China, too, I can't imagine how lost I would have felt.

We must realize, the Tibetans and Mongolians living in their autonomous regions had never lived as the minority, but rather as the MAJORITY dominant forces in those regions.

But the Tibetans and Mongolians in central China, despite their massive numbers, are scattered, and sometimes isolated. The minority people in central China need all the support they can get.

I find it sad that while the Hans saluted Genghis Khan, and encouraged my heritage, the Tibet Movement denies minorities even exist in central China. Instead, the movement continually pushes the notion that China is a mono-ethnic Han nation. It finally came to me what is going on. There is something very wrong here. The minorities in central China are the real minorities, in terms of being a small percentage of the local population. But they are forgotten.

The Dalai Lama and his group are willing to erase the existence of vast minority people in China, including the majority of the Tibetans, who live in central China. These Tibetans in central China are now non-existent in all of the Tibetan movement's literature.

We must not forget this reality: The Dalai Lama and his group had lived as the MAJORITY in terms of the percentage of the local population in the bordering regions.

They now take advantage of the term "minority", and kick the real minorities into oblivion by declaring to the world that we are assimilated "Han" now. They care little what will happen to the real minorities in central China.

As an American now, married to a spouse with Native American blood, with two children, and looking forward to grand children, I love this country. I can't help but wonder what an American will think if one of our own minority independence group here declares the rest of us Americans, be we Chinese American, African American, Native American, are all "assimilated European Americans now".

Just as the minorities in America will be offended by this notion, so are the real minorities in China. I feel very bad that the Tibetan movement is attempting to erase our identities. Is this how we want their Tibetan children in central China to feel?

I hope all the people who support the "Free Tibet movement" will think twice on what you are really doing to the real minorities in China.

Ask yourselves, "Where did all the Tibetans go?"

I hope you will support the real minorities across China, be we Tibetan, Mongolian, Manchurian, or other, in keeping our heritage, rather than support a group that is out to deny our existence.

http://members.tripod.com/~journeyeast/where_did_tibetans_go_.html



I wonder why fvnyc did not read the articles posted from a person who is from China/Taiwan
1394 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
23 / M
Offline
Posted 6/29/10

shinto-male wrote:


shinto-male wrote:

Where Did All The Tibetans Go?
by Grain


I'm a Mongolian Chinese American. My 26th generation grandfather had been a prime minister to Kubilai Khan's grandson in the Yuan Dynasty. Ever since two years ago, I have been trying to call America's attention to the real minorities in China, who live in central China instead of in the bordering autonomous regions.

When I first began telling people about the forgotten minorities in China, some people reacted with skepticism. They thought that only a handful of minorities lived in central China. It was difficult for me to convince them that their concept is wrong.

Many of them base their impression of minority population in China based on academic figures from books they read, which cite anywhere from 6% to 8.9%, "with the majority of the population in autonomous regions". I have to say this runs totally contradictory to most of the Chinese people's real experience in China. If you ask any Chinese who grew up around central China, or Taiwan they will tell you, "Minority people are everywhere in China!"

In my experience, it wasn't at all uncommon to run into minorities in Taiwan. In my first grade class of 32, our teacher was Manchurian, I was Mongol, and another girl was Miao. That's one incident of 10% minority. One can say it's a fluke; 3 out of 32 isn't that hard to happen by accident. Yet I know in my heart it is probably closer to the norm. Very often, newspaper articles about movie stars, writers, and politicians would include a brief word about their minority blood. This isn't the focus of those articles, but comments in the passing. Do luminaries tend to be minority? Certainly not true. Among the ordinary people, we would hear someone say, "I'm tall because my parents were Manchurian." And we won't even blink, because we know minorities are everywhere.

Most of us are quite desensitized toward minorities around us. I recently walked into an overseas Chinese bookstore, chatted with a clerk for 20 minutes, and finally mentioned I am a Mongol, to which she replied, "I'm a Manchurian." This was in the United States! Neither of us blinked at all.

As I mull over the census figures, I know they don't sound right. If indeed there are only 6% to 8% minority people, and most of them are in bordering regions, then the central area should have only 1% to 2%. Somehow 1% to 2% sounds too low.

Why is there such a discrepancy between real experience and "census" figures?

Finally, I began to work out a set of figures based on my own family, which helped me understand the situation. I began with a mathematical calculation. According to my family tree, including my children, there have been 27 generations since the Yuan Dynasty days. Assuming 2 children who reach adulthood per generation, then from 1290 A.D. there are now 67 million descendants. Astounding? Here is the math:

1. 1
2. 2
3. 4
4. 8
5. 16
6. 32
7. 64
8. 128
9. 256
10. 512
11. 1024
12. 2048
13. 4096
14. 8192
15. 16384
16. 32768
17. 65536
18. 131072
19. 262144
20. 524288
21. 1048576
22. 2097152
23. 4194304
24. 8388608
25. 16777216
26. 33554432
27. 67108864

Yes, 67 million from one family.

Yet, most of these descendants would NOT be counted in a Chinese census for minorities, due to two factors:

Factor 1)
China is a patriarchal society. All children follow their fathers' line of family. Of the 67 million possible descendents, half of them may very well be female. Of the 27 tiers of this family tree, any node with a female child ends, as far as the census is concerned, thereby eliminating her branch of future generations of BOTH male and female descendants. That cuts drastically from any survey China may hold on the minorities populations.

However, many people in China will tell you, "My grandmother is a Manchurian." It is quite normal for ordinary people to run into minorities. This is why the ethnic survey in China yields a deceivingly less minority population. But the people in China run into minorities everywhere.

Here in the U.S., most people judge their own ethnicity based on their skin color. Anyone with either an African American father or mother tends to be viewed as African American. Their children and grandchildren are often viewed as minority for generations. In China, minority census is hampered by the patriarch system.

Factor 2)
In China, the ethnic groups' autonomous regions also qualify as geological locations. Identification records do not ask for "ethnicity" but the geological location of family origin. In over 700 years of integration, many people have migrated. The records of the first few generation of migrants will reflect that they came from "Mongolia". After a few more generations, the records tend to reflect the newer geological location.

In my 1st grade class of 32 or so, there were three minority people. The Manchurian was registered as "from Beijing". The Mongol was "from Canton" (actually my grandfather didn't even live in Canton, but was in Hainan, an island off Canton.) The Miao was registered as from another province. None of us were registered as minorities. Yet we all know our own heritage. Wu Ur Kai-Xi, one of the student leaders in Tienanmen Square, is a minority from Xinjiang province. But he is now registered as a Taichung resident in Taiwan.

Despite that we don't show up on the census, many of us minorities in central China belong to family associations with people sharing the same last name. In China, our ancestors define who we are. Heritage is very important to us.

We should keep in mind: In the autonomous regions such as Tibet, nearly every one of the whole population is counted toward "minority population". This is why textbooks all over the West show a negligent number of minorities in central China, and contend that the vast minorities are "concentrated" in Tibet, Mongolia, Xinjiang.

The above figure of 67 million is assuming no war, nor epidemic, which central China did suffer some.

The Tibetan movement claims Tibet was a "peaceful country that had no disease, no hunger, until the Chinese invaded her." Common sense should make people ask, "Why is the Tibetan population only 6 million when a SINGLE family of Tibetans alive during the Yuan Dynasty days may have 67 million descendants now under such peaceful conditions?"

Where did all the Tibetans go?

The fact is: Many Tibetans-like migrants in the U.S. who had moved west to a better land-have migrated east into central China in a continuous integration process over the last 700 years. The move did not happen overnight. This is why Tibet is an inseparable part of China. Due to the number of mixed marriages in central China, people with Tibetan blood are everywhere. Tibetans are integral to the Chinese heritage.

Tibetans are part of the Chinese people.

This is why a Chinese student from the mainland tried to tell the Americans: "There are Tibetans all over China. One of them is a top general in the Chinese army. Another is a household name singer." It takes a base of many average people to produce a top general, and a household name singer. There are also people like the famous dissident Wei, who has never set foot on Tibet, but met a Tibetan girlfriend in central China. Evidence that Tibetans are all over China is prevalent.

The lies spread by the Tibetan movement can not be sustained. There are millions of Tibetan Chinese people in central China who will one day speak openly, and be heard. Right now some Tibetans have tried to speak, but they have been labeled as "Chinese propaganda".

One of my foremost concerns is for the Tibetan Chinese children who live in central China. They are like me. When I was growing up, I used to enjoy looking at the map of China while sitting in a geography class in China. I smiled when I saw how big Mongolia-my part of the country-was. I knew Mongolia was the autonomous home region for my ethnicity, and looked forward to going there to meet all my fellow Mongolians.

Outer Mongolia became independent under the Russians' engineering, and nobody in the world realized what it did to me. I was saddened, sitting in my classroom, feeling my part of the country just became small. Had Inner Mongolia left China, too, I can't imagine how lost I would have felt.

We must realize, the Tibetans and Mongolians living in their autonomous regions had never lived as the minority, but rather as the MAJORITY dominant forces in those regions.

But the Tibetans and Mongolians in central China, despite their massive numbers, are scattered, and sometimes isolated. The minority people in central China need all the support they can get.

I find it sad that while the Hans saluted Genghis Khan, and encouraged my heritage, the Tibet Movement denies minorities even exist in central China. Instead, the movement continually pushes the notion that China is a mono-ethnic Han nation. It finally came to me what is going on. There is something very wrong here. The minorities in central China are the real minorities, in terms of being a small percentage of the local population. But they are forgotten.

The Dalai Lama and his group are willing to erase the existence of vast minority people in China, including the majority of the Tibetans, who live in central China. These Tibetans in central China are now non-existent in all of the Tibetan movement's literature.

We must not forget this reality: The Dalai Lama and his group had lived as the MAJORITY in terms of the percentage of the local population in the bordering regions.

They now take advantage of the term "minority", and kick the real minorities into oblivion by declaring to the world that we are assimilated "Han" now. They care little what will happen to the real minorities in central China.

As an American now, married to a spouse with Native American blood, with two children, and looking forward to grand children, I love this country. I can't help but wonder what an American will think if one of our own minority independence group here declares the rest of us Americans, be we Chinese American, African American, Native American, are all "assimilated European Americans now".

Just as the minorities in America will be offended by this notion, so are the real minorities in China. I feel very bad that the Tibetan movement is attempting to erase our identities. Is this how we want their Tibetan children in central China to feel?

I hope all the people who support the "Free Tibet movement" will think twice on what you are really doing to the real minorities in China.

Ask yourselves, "Where did all the Tibetans go?"

I hope you will support the real minorities across China, be we Tibetan, Mongolian, Manchurian, or other, in keeping our heritage, rather than support a group that is out to deny our existence.

http://members.tripod.com/~journeyeast/where_did_tibetans_go_.html



I wonder why fvnyc did not read the articles posted from a person who is from China/Taiwan


His mathematics is rather faulty.

1- that person could've very well died with only one to no child to continue his linage.

2- there was a myriad of events that could've killed off an entire family (killing off entire families, after all, is not uncommon in China as punishment)

3- Some might not have gotten married


Therefore, the figures are far overblown.
2267 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
31 / M / Toronto, Canada
Offline
Posted 7/1/10
Repair of Jokhang Temple in full swing

http://eng.tibet.cn/news/today/201005/t20100512_578184.htm

The renovation of the Jokhang Temple in Lhasa, capital of Tibet, which costs around 30 million yuan, is now in full swing.


Repairs to begin on quake-damaged Tibetan monastery
2010-04-13 13:43:00 | by: | From: Xinhua
Tools: Print Size Adjust

A Tibetan community in northwest China's Gansu Province has received 2 million yuan (294,000 U.S. dollars) of central government appropriation for repair work on a monastery that was damaged by the deadly earthquake of 2008, the local government said Tuesday.

The fund would be used to fix and reinforce the Langmu Temple in Luqu County of the Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture of Gannan, a county government spokesman said.

He said about 2,305 square meters of temple facilities were damaged by the 8.0-magnitude earthquake of May 2008.

The quake caused heavy casualties in the southwestern Sichuan Province and also jolted the neighboring Gansu Province.

The spokesman said the temple would remain open to pilgrims and other visitors during the repair work. He did not say, however, when repair work would begin or how long it would last.

Langmu Temple, built in 1748, is named after Langmusi Town which, divided into two parts by the Bailongjiang River, sits on the border of Sichuan and Gansu provinces.

The place is known for its Tibetan Buddhist culture and beautiful landscape.

http://eng.tibet.cn/news/today/201004/t20100413_563901.htm

40466 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
31 / M / So Cal
Offline
Posted 10/29/12 , edited 10/29/12

orangeflute wrote:

His mathematics is rather faulty.

1- that person could've very well died with only one to no child to continue his linage.

2- there was a myriad of events that could've killed off an entire family (killing off entire families, after all, is not uncommon in China as punishment)

3- Some might not have gotten married


Therefore, the figures are far overblown.


You can't just pull numbers out of your arse. Next time maybe he can try including factors like death, sterility, abstinence and a greater/lessor average of off-spring.

That's, if he wants people to take his predictions seriously.
40466 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
31 / M / So Cal
Offline
Posted 10/29/12

fvnyc wrote:

This is sooo one-sided until it's ridiculous. Shinto-male, you're on such a crusade to prove a point about some sort of Western-made conspiracy regarding Tibet, but why aren't you posting anything from the Tibetan point of view? All of the essays you've posted have been from the eyes of an outsider looking in (including the one that was narrated in third person about someone being abused by their landlord...as if that's something that happened to every Tibetan).

I don't think it's so much that you feel like non-Tibetans have more authority and knowledge about Tibet, but moreso that you are trying so hard to prove a point that you are weeding out anything that might jeopardize the message that you're trying to send about how everything is such a lie.

Lessen your biases, please.


Have you been there? To Tibet? I have, recently, in fact.

They're fine with it.

"But what about all the suicide bombings?" you might ask. They're all products of the Dalai Lama's rebel recruitors. Get someone in enough of a fervor and give them an explosive and all you have to do is give them a time and a place.

Propaganda ftw.

Most Tibetan's don't live in the major cities. That's where the Chinese make their home. You need to travel many hours on sketchy roads to find the real Tibet.

They're still mostly nomadic. I had the chance to see thousands gather at a temple where a Lama was visiting, who had come from all over Tibet. They spend weeks on foot, or getting ride from other's passing by.



First  Prev  1  2  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.