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Palestine/Israel - Norman Finkelstein will explain
Yei
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The real problem with this issue is ignorance. People don't know anything about this issue, and yet they think they do And this is because of our government(s) and it's ties with Israel and how it controls what we hear from the general media. So they manipulate what you know, and it's worked very well on most people.

But now it's time to reveal the truth, and the truth is this is not a controversial issue at all. If you look at the facts/record, it's very clear.

Norman Finkelstein does a good job explaining the Palestine/Israel conflict in the following lecture.

ALL THE INFO IN THIS TOPIC IS NOT FROM ME, IT'S FROM NORMAN FINKELSTEIN

If you don't know Norman Finkelstein, he's a famous Jewish professor who is known for criticizing Israel. His parents are Holocaust survivors, btw. Here's his lecture, watch it if you want to know everything about this issue:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5935337125702937135&ei=9iN9Scb1C4Sa-wHdsJmpBQ&q=Israel+%26+Palestine%3A+Roots+of+Conflict%2C+Prospects+for+Peace.&hl=en

It's a long lecture but it sums up all the major "controversial" parts of this conflict and he basically, by the end of it, makes the point that this is not a controversial issue at all, it's actually very clear. Because it's like one and half hours long, I'll summarize what I think his most important points are:


-The borders issue, Israel is violating international law by keeping it's illegally occupied land it took in 1967. The world court decided this in unison (14 to 1)

-the Palestinian refugee problem was not caused by Arabs starting a war with Israel, actually, Zionists ethnically cleansed all those Palestinians when they invaded and they also massacred/tortured alot of them in the process

-Israel is the only country to legalize torture and the bulldozing of innocent people's houses


-Amnesty International along with many other human rights watch groups have all agreed on what has been happening to Palestinians for decades, and according to international law Israel is purposefully targeting civilians and is obviously incredibly immoral if you consider it that it's been reported that many children during both intifadas have been sniped in the head by Israeli soldiers. That means they purposefully aimed for these kid's heads and shot. Israel has purposely targeted civilians and children countless times in the past, this is according to human rights groups and Amnesty

-Israel's false "human shields" and "there were weapons there" excuses for it's massacres are not good enough excuses and are still considered crimes against humanity even if they were true, but to make it worse they are not true most of the time. (this just means when Israel bombs a house in Gaza to kill a Hamas leader and also end up killing 50 civilians, that is considered the same as when a suicide bomber blows himself up on a bus and kills only civilians)

-Israel has exploited the Holocaust and antisemitism claims as excuses for it's many crimes

MOST IMPORTANT POINT:

The UN has come up with the obvious 2 state solution. Basically, Israel stops breaking the law and move back to the 1967 borders and end all occupation/oppression of the Palestinian land. Very simple, and it makes sense, all Israel is being asked to do is follow international law. Hamas has agreed to this solution (which means that all the bull**** people say about Hamas just wanting to get rid of all the Jews and driving them into the sea is all false, actually all Hamas wants is the rights of the Palestinians given back, and to let them live in peace in their own separate state).

When this obvious solution was voted on, every country in the world voted YES, except for 4. The US and Israel voted no along with 2 other countries that no one has ever heard of. They voted on this solution again for years, over and over. The last vote was: every country says YES, except for 7. Those seven are US, Israel, and 5 countries no one has ever heard of. This solution is obvious, Hamas agrees to it, all the Arab countries agree to it, the whole world agrees to it. All Israel is being asked to do for this solution to work is comply with international law. And yet, they refuse :/

Israel is the cause of this entire conflict, Israel is the reason this hasn't been resolved.


In the lecture, he talks about alot more stuff in detail.

------------------Now here’s a summary of Finkelstein’s explanation of the recent conflict:----------------

US/Israel want control of the Palestinians, so when Israel left Gaza and let them have their own elections they made sure one of the parties running, Fatah, was on their side. Israel/US was expecting Fatah to win, and Fatah would comply with whatever US/Israel wants. But it didn't go the way they wanted, Hamas won instead. Israel/US can't accept that, they put on crushing economic sanctions, close the borders, cut electricity and water in many areas, and start killing people. In the last 2 years, 2000 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli soldiers (obviously, this is not including the 1300 killed in the recent war). Under these conditions, how could a functioning society be made? Before anything else can be done, Hamas needed to stop Israel from what it was doing to the people in Gaza. You'd have to be insane to accept those conditions to live in, they were literally being shot at daily. Hamas fires rockets, obviously this is what Israel wants them to do. Now Israel can call Hamas a "terrorist organization" for trying to stop what Israel was doing. Hamas can technically be called a terrorist organization, but so can the French Resistance who fought the Nazis.

A ceasefire is made, Hamas stops the rockets, Israel stops shooting children. Israel broke the ceasefire, Hamas retaliates, Israel uses it as an excuse to go into Gaza and do maximum damage. Like many times before (like in Lebanon), Israel basically massacred as many people as possible and bulldozed as many homes as possible. And they did this in the cruelest way possible, like using illegal weapons on children. Out of the 1300 killed 894 were civilians, 437 children under the age of 16, 110 women, and 123 elderly men. 1,890 out of the 5,400 injured were children. In the last days, IDF soldiers scattered to bulldoze as much homes as possible before they left, after the ceasefire was made. And all the US/Isarel has to do to get away with it, is make bogus “human shields” and “there were weapons/militants there” claims which have been proven to be false on countless occasions by the UN, Red Cross and Amnesty International.

And why exactly did they stop? Their fake excuse was they wanted to get rid of Hamas. Well they didn't beat Hamas, in fact they barely put a dent in their political power. So why did they stop? Well Obama's inauguration was about to happen and we can't let images of dead Palestinians children ruin the occasion. The US told it's puppet to stop it, and they stopped.

Israel/US cannot tolerate any resistance in the Middle East, all the Arabs there must be their slaves. Most already are, except for Hezbollah, the Palestinians and Iran. So every once in a while, the US lets Israel go crazy on Lebanon or Palestinians to put them in their place. They go in, do as much damage, usually just killing civilians like women and children, destroying buildings, hospitals, etc. They usually try to provoke Hamas or Hezbollah to attack them first, then use the small attack as an excuse to massacre hundreds of children. The US media covers everything so that ignorant Americans stay ignorant. It is guaranteed that Israel will attack Lebanon in the next coming years, they cannot accept the loss to Hezbollah 2 years ago, and the damage they will do to Lebanon will probably be ten times worse. It is guaranteed that Palestinians will continue to be oppressed and massacred every once in a while, more of these conflicts will arise until all resistance from Palestinians/Hamas and Lebanon/Hezbollah is gone.

-THE END-

Now you know. Don't be a sheep and follow what the the US government wants you to believe. And do you know they have given around 100 billion dollars of your tax money to Israel and provide them with all of their weapons? What they are doing couldn't be more obvious.
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Posted 2/8/09 , edited 2/8/09
I really respect Norman Finkelstine and he is a great debator (he really owns anyone he debates). What I found funny is that when he tried to debate Alan Dershowitz who is a strong Israel sympathizer he turned him down saying, "I refuse to be in the same room with an anti semite." Now how the hell can a jew who family been through the holocaust be an anti semite? Lol now that word is being used for jews who criticize Israel. I believe Alan Dershowitz knew he would lose because it would be hard to use ad hominem attacks on Norman since he is a jew like himself. Like these Zionists dont give a damn about anyone they will silence any form of criticism to keep our public as sheep. They are doing a very good job because the majority of the public is still very ignorant towards this conflict. This man got his career pratically ruined speaking for the truth but it doesnt phase him because he keeps on doing it and God Bless him. He is not the only Jew who speaks out against Israel.

The majority of the lemmings in America believe it is only muslims who criticize Israel. The counter this claim many of the articles I posted on the Israel assault on Hamas thread which is a twisted title because that was an assault on the whole region came from Americans and non muslims. We have to break out of this ignorance trying to turn this into some kind of religious war because if we stay in that mindset Israel will always be justified against the aggressive muslims bent on killing all jews which is totally false and which the Quran doesnt support at all.

Hey look it is Norman debating Wolf Blizter former AIPAC member now a CNN news anchor (go figure). Yet Americans still dont see why he is pro Israel (laughable). Wolf lost this debate because he repeats the same rheortic Washington repeats on Israel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjfG8-teSc0 part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qdr5pVNqzJs part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI4r_D2kuxw part 3

Debates like these is what we need more of because Americans need to see if it is really worth sending Israel billions of dollars a year even when our economy is in shit right now. And when debates like these are present it should not be called anti semitic it needs to be aired so we all can see it. The only way to see debates like these is on youtube or some satellite channel that nobody ever watches. Why doesnt it strike any American head that debates like these are stiffled so we are not allowed to see it?

Doha Debates is very good also they debate senstitive issues such as Israel (which shouldnt be sensetitve at all in the US but he zionist made it so). Norman Finkelstine once again shines in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_m4Cp-TVK4 part 1 (you can find the rest of the parts in the link)
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An animated message from Rabbi Weiss, expressing what a real Jew feels towards the Arab and Muslim people of the world!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT8cg62iKyg
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Posted 2/9/09
Ron Paul will be glad to see this if he became President.
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Posted 2/9/09
please post more stuff on this.

I would like to get your sources for:

- Hamas's only goal is to restore palestine's borders to pre 1967 and nothing more. << Hopefully from a very reliable source like Hamas's spokesman or something.
- The world's vote regarding Hamas's decision and only 7 countries voted against. (u sure the great brits not siding with US? what with tony blair being america's slave and all) << a record/video/document regarding the result of the vote, when and where it took place would be very appreciated
- The claim for IDF's shooting children's heads. << a document/news report/etc from human rights group and amnesty
- Also more elaboration regarding the expansion of Israel's territory after 1967. Was that legal? Did they have the right to do so? What was supposed to be done according to the international law regarding the aftermath for the 6 days war?
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supermalv wrote:

please post more stuff on this.

I would like to get your sources for:

- Hamas's only goal is to restore palestine's borders to pre 1967 and nothing more. << Hopefully from a very reliable source like Hamas's spokesman or something.
- The world's vote regarding Hamas's decision and only 7 countries voted against. (u sure the great brits not siding with US? what with tony blair being america's slave and all) << a record/video/document regarding the result of the vote, when and where it took place would be very appreciated
- The claim for IDF's shooting children's heads. << a document/news report/etc from human rights group and amnesty
- Also more elaboration regarding the expansion of Israel's territory after 1967. Was that legal? Did they have the right to do so? What was supposed to be done according to the international law regarding the aftermath for the 6 days war?


And interview done with a Hamas Advisor. I'm not sure if it's 100% reliable, but I thought that I could just help out a bit and be a bit productive :D

Scroll down to the part called Hamas' views on the future http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9917.shtml

Hamas' views on the future

RA: Hamas has long called for a long-term truce with Israel, an offer that Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and Israel have rejected already. Is there a possibility that Hamas would consider other options?

AY: We still stick to our political vision which is based on the truce or long-term ceasefire of five, ten or twenty years if Israel accepts to withdraw to the pre-1967 border. This remains our vision of the basis for a peaceful settlement of the conflict.

RA: Abbas argues that a long-term truce will give Israel a chance to reoccupy the Palestinian territories. How do you view this?

AY: I don't think that Abbas understands fully what we mean by a truce. The truce means that the Israelis will withdraw in a specified period, maybe six months, from all the occupied Palestinian territories, and they can get a guarantee for security for these ten or twenty years. We think this might set the stage for confidence building. After twenty years maybe the new generation of Palestinians will have different views for how to settle the conflict.
===========================================


For the last part concerning the expansion, international bodies believed it to be a violation of international law. These included the United Nations Security Council, the International Court of Justice, the European Union, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch and some legal scholars.

I read it a while back from wikipedia, and it's still there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
Wikipedia isn't usually a source to be trusted, but I suppose from there you can find information regarding those international bodies and maybe quotes.

Hope that cleared out those two things I'm still searching those other points, so if I find them I maybe able to post them up later ^_^
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You are missenforemed, here is alittle history on Hamas.

In 1987, the Arabs living in the territories occupied by Israeli in the 6-Day war began a series of riots and violent confrontations now known as the First Intifada, a movement quite independent from PLO leadership. Soon after, Islamic militants founded the Hamas movement.

The Hamas was formed from the Mujama movement, which had been a political party with no military ambitions that was given some encouragement by Israel earlier in the decade, as a means of countering the influence of the PLO, and perhaps because the opposition of the Mujama to an international conference that would adjudicate the problem of Palestine, coincided with the policies of the Begin and Shamir governments.

Hamas name
Hamas is an acronym of Harakat al Mawqawama al Islamiyya meaning "Islamic Resistance Movement." The word Hamas also means "zeal." The H in Hamas is an Arabic 'Het and it is sounded as a pharyngeal fricative, a sound made deep in the throat like the 'Het in "Shalom 'Haver" made famous by President Bill Clinton. The "a"s in Hamas are pronounced approximately like the "a" in "cat." In Hebrew, the a's are pronounced as "ah."

Hamas capsule history
The Hamas has a 'military' wing, Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, that engages in terrorist acts and a 'civilian' wing that supposedly confines itself to education and 'good works.' Hamas perpetrated numerous suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks, at first in order to sabotage the Oslo Accords and peace process, and then as part of the Second Intifada. Israel successively assassinated its leaders, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and Sheikh Ahmed Rantissi, forcing the leadership underground. However, in January of 2006, candidates representing the Hamas swept to victory in Palestinian elections, overcoming the traditional leadership of the Fateh and PLO. In June of 2006, Hamas affiliates captured an Israeli soldier by tunneling across the border between Gaza and Israel In February of 2007, Hamas, Fateh and other factions entered a unity government in a deal brokered by Saudi Arabia and Egypt. However, in practice, Hamas ruled Gaza on its own. It formed the Executive Force over the protests of the Fatah and Palestinian Authority. The Executive force was a combination internal police force, political force to be used against Hamas opponents and terrorist group. In June of 2007, Hamas ousted Fatah forces from Gaza in a bloody coup, throwing Fatah members off the roofs of buildings after shooting them in the knees. At least one Fatah member was sliced into steaks that were sent to his family. Since Gaza had been totally evacuated by Israel in the unilateral disengagement of 2005, Hamas currently (2009) rules Gaza as a de facto state government. It has used Gaza as a base for launching rocket attacks against Israel. On June 19, 2008, Israel and Hamas concluded a "lull" or Tahdiya agreement that was brokered by Egypt. Hamas, but not Israel, declared that this truce was for a period of six months. Rocket fire from Gaza was reduced but not stopped. Hamas greatly stepped up smuggling of arms through tunnels beneath the Egyptian controlled Rafah crossing. Hamas dismissed the international monitors that were to have controlled the Rafah crossing, and then declared that Gaza is "under siege." Israel retaliated for rocket fire by closing the Israeli crossings periodically. On December 18, 2008, Hamas declared that they would not renew the truce. Thereafter, Hamas and associated organizations directed a rain of rocket and mortar fire at Israeli towns and cities, reaching as far as 45 KM away with Grad rockets that had been smuggled in during the lull period. On December 26, 2008, Israel launched operation Cast Lead, attacking the Hamas in Gaza at first by air and later in a limited ground invasion.

Click here for details of Hamas history.

Hamas Principles
The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

The charter is a rather classical Islamist document, applied to the local issues. It declares that Jihad (in the sense of armed battle) is the only solution. It cites the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a ludicrous anti-Semitic forgery.

The "Zionists" and the freemasons and others are blamed for what Hamas and radical Islamists see as the major calamities of the world, especially the French Revolution.

One of the most ominous aspects of the Charter however, is this Hadith:

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

The implication is clear: Allah promised that the Jews will be murdered, and the Hamas "aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take."

Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood
Some observers deny the relation between the Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. However, the Charter states:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.

Moreover, the Charter quotes Hassan Al-Banna, a Nazi sympathizer who founded the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. There is no doubt that the Hamas views itself as a part of the Muslim Brotherhood and an ideological heir of al Banna. The Muslim Brotherhood spawned a number of radical Islamist movements including Al-Qaeda.

Current Hamas Positions
Some analysts insist that the Hamas is becoming more pragmatic in its ideology following assumption of a political role. The evidence for this is view is conflicting, and it is beclouded by the practice of dissemblance that was copied from Al-Banna and Sayyed Qutb. Recent statements by leaders include the following:

Imam Yousif al-Zahar of Hamas said in his sermon at the Katib Wilayat mosque in Gaza that "Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing." Ref IHT 1 April 08
Sheik Yunus al-Astal, a Hamas legislator and imam, in a column in the weekly newspaper Al Risalah in 2008 discussed a Koranic verse suggesting that "suffering by fire is the Jews' destiny in this world and the next." Astal concluded "Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews.Ref IHT 1 April 08
"We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity" stated Hamas leader Fathi Hammad in Gaza on Friday January 2nd 2009 - ref -- BBC 2 January 09

In a sermon aired on Hamas' Al-Aqsa television, cleric Yunis Al Astal stated, "Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam.
"I believe that our children, or our grandchildren, will inherit our jihad and our sacrifices, and, Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them"

He maintained that Rome would become, ""an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread though Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, even Eastern Europe." Ref- Fox 14 Apr. 2008

Other statements are more moderate in tone, but Hamas has repeatedly refused international community demands to recognize the right of Israel to exist, abrogate its charter and abide by the previous commitments of the Palestinian Authority

Ami Isseroff

Updated Jan 11, 2009


source- http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Hamas has been branded and officially classified as a terrorist organization by the following nations. The United States, the EU, Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan and Jordan (yes, even Jordan which shares a lot of history with the Palestinians). Hamas is not truly Islamic, they are satanic and evil.
Yei
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supermalv wrote:

please post more stuff on this.

I would like to get your sources for:

- Hamas's only goal is to restore palestine's borders to pre 1967 and nothing more. << Hopefully from a very reliable source like Hamas's spokesman or something.
- The world's vote regarding Hamas's decision and only 7 countries voted against. (u sure the great brits not siding with US? what with tony blair being america's slave and all) << a record/video/document regarding the result of the vote, when and where it took place would be very appreciated
- The claim for IDF's shooting children's heads. << a document/news report/etc from human rights group and amnesty
- Also more elaboration regarding the expansion of Israel's territory after 1967. Was that legal? Did they have the right to do so? What was supposed to be done according to the international law regarding the aftermath for the 6 days war?



What I did up to the part talking about the recent conflict was summarize what Norman's lecture was about, all the info there was taken straight from his lecture. You can watch the video yourself, hear what he says. He is a political scientist, and his primary fields of research are the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the politics of the Holocaust. He studied this his whole life, he is Jewish, his parents are Holocaust survivors. If there is anyone in the world that you can trust to tell you the truth about this situation, it's him. Watch the video yourself, everything I said up to the current conflict analysis is in it.

About Hamas and it's goals... Hamas's role has changed over the years. Hamas literally means "resistance" and was created to do something about the illegitimate Zionist state. Zionists came in and stole their country, massacred people, expelled them from the land, I think that should be reason enough to start an organization like Hamas, just like how the French Resistance was made when the Nazis took over France.

But when it was apparent the UN and the rest of the world were going to allow what the Zionists had done and that the US had made Israel into one of the most powerful countries, their purpose changed. They still have a right to protest what was done to them and their country in 1948, Israel was created on evil terms, they ethnically cleansed and massacred so many people. But the ethnically cleansing part that cause the massive Palestinian refugee problem is probably the worst (especially since it was done right after the Holocaust, it's the irony of the century). But they have accepted the fact that Israel is there and will not go away, but I doubt they accept it's right to be there. How could they? I don't even accept it's right to exist, they used the Holocaust as an excuse to do it in the first place, and then screwed the Palestinians over and oppressed them for 60 years, Israel isn't a nice country. Hamas's purpose now is a political power that will protect the Palestinian people. That's their goal, and that's what it has been for a long time. Hamas agreed and tried to make peace so many times in the past, but Israel never complies. Hamas has done very bad things obviously, but it's not so much their fault as it is Israel's. When you treat a group of people the way Israel has treated the Palestinians, what else can you expect? You expect them to accept it and be peaceful? Any group people from any part of the world, with any religion would do the same if they were in that position. No group of people wouldn't fight back any way they could if this horrible injustice was done to them and if they were under Israel's oppression everyday. I haven't gone into detail about Israel's oppression over the years, they've sniped children, tortured innocent people, bulldozed hundreds of homes, unlawfully arrested thousands, bombed and massacred innocent people, and most importantly Israel illegally stole their land and restricted their rights so that it is impossible to create a functioning, peaceful society.

Firing rockets into Israel is wrong, but there is not one group of people who wouldn't do it if Israel did the same to them. It's like if I tied you down and tortured you for 60 years and when you get mad and fight back, I'm surprised. Well what do you expect their reaction to be?

Hamas has agreed to the UN solution, and tried to achieve peace many times in the past, this means they do not have the goal of getting rid of Israel or killing all Jews. They agree to the idea of having 2 separate peaceful states. And at the same time Palestinians still have the right to be incredibly mad at what Israel and Zionists have done to them. So if some people in Hamas say "I hate all Jews" or a Palestinian says " I want to kill all Jews." In Finkelstein's lecture he explains how after the Holocaust for decades if he said anything positive about Germans, he would get in trouble. Jews for decades said the same thing about Germans that Palestinians say about Jews. "I hate all Germans", it's obviously wrong, but still, is it really surprising?

Like he says in his lecture, actions speak louder than words. If individual Hamas leaders or members said some bad things, they are wrong for doing so. But Hamas has tried to achieve peace and agreed to the 2-state solution. Those 2 facts right there prove what Hamas's current goals are.

At the end of the 1967 war, Israel had gained control of the the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem. He talks about this very clearly in the beginning of the lecture, according to international court of justice, a fundamental principal of international law is: it is inadmissible for countries to acquire territory by war. In 1990 when Saddam Hussien invaded Kuwait, George Bush senior recited this law and said Saddam had to leave Kuwait immediately. All the land past the 1967 borders acquired by Israel is illegally occupied and belongs to the Palestinians. According to international law, like Saddam Hussien was told to do, Israel was supposed to leave that land to the Palestinians. But Israel doesn't want to follow international law or the Geneva conventions, they settled their people there and took control of all of it. I mean, they legalized torture, that shows how much they care about the Geneva conventions, international law, human rights and their morality in general.
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Posted 2/9/09
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

@Digs you remember on that Israel invades Hamas thread I posted an article about zionist creating fake foriegn websites supporting the west. That website you posted was a prime example the webname also the articles in it is all Pro West, Pro Israel arguements. In fact nothing is being stated on that website about Palestinian treatment. All the information on that website could have best came out from www.foxnews.com itself.
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digs wrote:

source- http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Hamas has been branded and officially classified as a terrorist organization by the following nations. The United States, the EU, Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan and Jordan (yes, even Jordan which shares a lot of history with the Palestinians). Hamas is not truly Islamic, they are satanic and evil.



No.

I won't argue the credibility of this source, but remember, Hamas has agreed to the 2 state solution and tried to acquire peace on multiple occasions, and that doesn't fit with alot of stuff on this document. Separate any religious stuff as well, that's a lie and may be held by some Palestinians but that's not what Hamas is about.

First off, it doesn't matter who officially classifies what, all that matters is the truth.

Hamas is obviously not truly Islamic and they've done alot of bad stuff, but they are not evil and they are not satanic. They are about as evil as people under Nazi rule who chose to fight back. That's not evil, that's standing up for yourself and your people, and it's brave. They make their own weapons and they do alot with what little resources they have. Again, I know it's wrong, but at the same time how can you not expect them to fight back? If you call Hamas a terrorist organization, then that must mean the French Resistance agianst the Nazis is. The French Resistance may have killed innocent Germans. Does that make them evil and satanic? How about Jews in the Holocaust that tried to fight back and some how killed a few innocent German civilians? Are they evil as well?

What do you expect the Palestinians to do? Sit down on their demolished homes and wait for someone to come save them? Well no one cares about them, so they have to stop their oppressor themselves, anyway they can. If the only way they can is wrong, well, desperate times call for desperate measures. If you were desperate enough I bet you do some crazy things as well.

The oppression is soooo bad that some Palestinians became desperate enough to believe blowing themselves up on a bus was acceptable by Islam. Hardcore Muslims with Qurans, were convinced committing suicide and killing innocent people was ok by Islam. Now you have to be extremely tormented for years to get to that level of desperation and insanity.


And btw, look at what Israel has done. Look at how many people each side has killed, do you really wanna compare? Israel has killed so much more people, and has done so much more damage. Which side do you think is more immoral? Israel purposefully targets civilians and lies about it. Israel has it's soldiers snipe children in the head. They have bulldozed thousands of people's homes and then there's the massacres/bombings. And most importantly not following the law that was made after and because of events like the Holocaust (sad irony), and making purposefully treating Palestinians like dirt for 60 years.

You are are upset with Hamas because they are trying to defend their people, but whatever Israel does is acceptable? By that I mean, if you are this much against Hamas and what it has done, then why aren't you completely disgusted and outraged at what Israel has done? You can't even compare both sides' crimes, Israel has done infinitely more evil and has forced the Palestinians to resort to bad things. I understand you're outrage at Hamas, but what I don't understand is how you can criticize Hamas and completely ignore what Israel has done.

It's like being outaged at the French Resistance when they killed some innocent Germans. omg that was a mean thing to do BUT THE NAZIS WERE KILLING MILLIONS AND DOING THE MOST EVIL IMAGINABLE. How can you even consider the bad things the French Resistance were doing while the Nazis were doing infinitely more evil and provoked the Resistance's actions. it just boggles my mind
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Posted 2/9/09

Yei wrote:




That's nice. I would sympathize with Hamas if that is true (their only goal is the 2 state solution). Just as everybody else in this world would. I sympathize with the Palestinian people. But as i said where's the concrete proof for that.

ps. I read someone's post for the Hamas' spokesman interview. It's good. Getting there at least.
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drizza wrote:

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

@Digs you remember on that Israel invades Hamas thread I posted an article about zionist creating fake foriegn websites supporting the west. That website you posted was a prime example the webname also the articles in it is all Pro West, Pro Israel arguements. In fact nothing is being stated on that website about Palestinian treatment. All the information on that website could have best came out from www.foxnews.com itself.


I still hold to what I said in the other thread, but I posted that web-site's article as a balance to the OP one. If this is to educate people on Palestine and Hamas then both sides should be represented. I support the Palestinian people, but I do not support Hamas and I view them as a terrorist organization (not because the US and others classify them as this, but because I classify them this way due to their actions and rhetoric). I am not anti-Palestinian or pro-Israeli military. I support the Palestinian people, and I politically (although not necessarily militarily) agree with Israel.
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Posted 2/9/09

digs wrote:


drizza wrote:

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

@Digs you remember on that Israel invades Hamas thread I posted an article about zionist creating fake foriegn websites supporting the west. That website you posted was a prime example the webname also the articles in it is all Pro West, Pro Israel arguements. In fact nothing is being stated on that website about Palestinian treatment. All the information on that website could have best came out from www.foxnews.com itself.


I still hold to what I said in the other thread, but I posted that web-site's article as a balance to the OP one. If this is to educate people on Palestine and Hamas then both sides should be represented. I support the Palestinian people, but I do not support Hamas and I view them as a terrorist organization (not because the US and others classify them as this, but because I classify them this way due to their actions and rhetoric). I am not anti-Palestinian or pro-Israeli military. I support the Palestinian people, and I politically (although not necessarily militarily) agree with Israel.


Then do you also politically agree with Israel's action for occupying what little left of Palestine's territory in West Bank and Gaza border (even till this day)?

How about Israel failing to release the territory they seized after the 6 days war? Even when against international law? (assuming OP's claim to this are correct)
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Posted 2/9/09

supermalv wrote:


Yei wrote:



That's nice. I would sympathize with Hamas if that is true (their only goal is the 2 state solution). Just as everybody else in this world would. I sympathize with the Palestinian people. But as i said where's the concrete proof for that.


ps. I read someone's post for the Hamas' spokesman interview. It's good. Getting there at least.



See what you and diggs are doing is looking at this like both sides are equally responsible.

Seriously think about this for a second, even if Hamas was evil and satanic, this is like trying to put blame on some Jews or the French Resistance during the Holocaust and Nazi Rule. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Imagine if I came started a conversation about WW2 and I began with "well the French Resistance was this evil terrorist group that was killing innocent people and wanted to get rid of Germany completely. Here are their beliefs and their flawed political views: and here's what some of their leaders said. They were crazy and needed to be stopped. They were killing innocent Germans/Nazis all the time, the total they killed was like 50, omg they are so evil, what is wrong with them?"

Then you would respond with "wtf is wrong with you, do you know what the Nazis were doing to them and there people? The Nazis were the evil ones, you can't even compare both side's crimes."

That's what it looks like to me, except Hamas is not evil and accepts that Israel has the right to exist, because it accepts the peaceful 2 state solution. They would not accept it if they were evil and everything you were made to believe about them was true.

http://www.arabnews.com/?y=2008&page=4&article=108523&d=3&section=0

There's your proof that they accept the 2 state solution, but Finkelstein saying so should be good enough. You don't trust what he says????

And if that's still not good enough, maybe you'll believe Jimmy Carter:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/22/israelandthepalestinians.usa

Why would he lie?
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Posted 2/9/09

Yei wrote:



No the situation is not as simple, that you can compare it to the french resistance movement. You forgot that the land that is "israel and palestine" today was unclaimed back then when it was liberated from the Ottoman empire. Technically, it wasn't anybody's land. Neither the arab's or the jew's. So saying that the Jews took their land was sort of incorrect.
__________________________

On a different note, I read the news article. Although i would normally argue, saying that source is potentially biased (arab news?). I'll discuss the content of the article instead. I like this bit:

When asked about claims by Israel and the United States that Hamas is seeking to destroy Israel, Meshaal (Hamas chief) said his movement has committed itself to a political plan, which it follows, and called on America, Europe and other international entities to conduct themselves in accordance with this political truth, and to judge Hamas based on its political plan, not on what people imagine.


Political plan = Palestine as back on what it was on 1967? Pardon me for continuing to complain, but I think they weren't being too specific in that news article. Most of it provided useful information though. Think it'll be useful for us pro-palestine people to keep gathering more and more evidence regarding this Palestine's politican plan.

_________________


On finklestein: I'm sure he's a reputable proffessor. But no. I don't trust what anyone say if they don't support their claims with evidence (something i have yet to find out. I'm watching the video straight after this). Even if what they're saying supports my belief. I'm not pro anything. I'm pro-truth.
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