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Posted 5/10/07
Using a condom is not 100% effective, if you don't want to have a child, but want to have sex the you should use other precuational methods aswell.

I think curcumstances have to be taken into consideration...if the unborn child is threating the mothers life due to certain complications and only one of them is able to surrvive, whose choice is that to make? Can you hoenstly condem sombody as evil for wanting to live. Also if the mother is unable to live with a child which may have been born due to an unwanted sexual experince is it really fair on that child to bring them up in that enviroment, if the mother can cope then no worries. Adoption is a possiblity but speaking as a child who was adopted (as was my brother from a diffrent biological family) it can create a whole lot of anguish even to the point where we may whish to not of been born in the first place.
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dkaceblaze wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:

We also use rape, pregnancy, pain, and child birth to fight for the murder. However, these are merely selfish excuses. True, no woman deserves to have to go through a pregnancy as a result of rape. No mother deserves to have go through pregnancy alone, or to have the reminded of their tragedy. However, this being said, nobody deserves to be killed. No unborn child deserves to be slaughtered because their cowardly mother was not strong enough to go through with it. (Of course in such a situation I’d be just as much of a coward myself, but my integrity, fortitude, and general morality are not in question here.) Also, abortion is itself a painful operation, and can lead to just as many complications as actual childbirth. It can rupture and damage a woman in ways that will cause her excruciating agonies long after birth pains would.

Which leads me on to my next point. It’s the woman’s body. She should have the right to decide what to do with it, right? Wrong! It’s the child’s body within the woman. The woman does not have rights over the child’s life, only her own. If she goes out and kills herself she also murders the child. An unborn fetus has complete human rights, as even abortion supporters who are mature and honest will admit. (Read Judith. J. Thomson’s “A defense of abortion” for evidence of this.

Abortion is glorified murder. Perhaps murder with understandable reasoning behind it, but murder none the less. It’s a selfish mother deciding: A. Because her child is not yet fully developed his/her life is not worth keeping. B. Because the child causes her pain she should not have to take care of it. C. Because her child is the child of rape she doesn’t deserve to live! ( This kind of logic leads to the slaughter of unfortunate bastard children like me)

These are all absurd and do not in any way justify the slaughter of thousands of unborn babies like that which we are seeing. It’s ominous that so many people so adamantly defend abortion. Sense when is it that an individual has the right to decide rather or not somebody’s life is not valuable enough to preserve because it is under developed or because it is a inconvenience or pain to them? That would be like me going and shooting the president of my company in the face because the way he runs his business gets me paid me, or hurts the economy. Because it makes things harder for me, or puts me through pain. This is not right.

Then there is also the “The mother will die if she gives birth debate” However, this being said who’s to say the mother’s life is more valuable than the innocent infants? I also like the following quote:


I have been reading about abortion recently and came across a ‘thought experiment’ used by Judith Jarvis Thomson about an expanding baby. The scenario is that you're in your house when your baby starts expanding rapidly. You realise that you have no chance of getting out and the only way to survive is to pop and kill the baby. The idea is that this is an analogy for mothers who will die if an abortion is not performed i.e. is it ok to kill in this form of self-defence? These thought experiments are designed to provoke a moral attitude which can then be applied to discover your true feelings on a particular issue. My instant reaction was that yes, it was ok to pop the baby in order to survive and therefore I believe abortion is ok if it saves the life of the mother. However, imagine that the baby is now an analogy not for abortion but for a virus like AIDS, by the same thought experiment it could be argued that saying yes would justify killing everyone who had AIDS in order to save everyone else in the population. Killing in a form of self-defense. This clearly would not be moral. My question is then, how accurate are these thought experiments if the same answer can provoke the same gut reaction, lead us to the same argument which can be applied in two different situations, one of which is arguably moral and the other which is completely, undoubtedly immoral?




Well, I submit that you have formed the most well thought out and executed argument/post made in this thread. I hate to have to be on the other said but as you said towards the end of your post, neither said should be easily swayed.

I think that most of what you said is very true, it is over used and shouldn't be used unless absolutely nessecary. And yes, unfortuniately it is nessecary. Because you can outlaw it if you want but you can't stop it. You'll just start finding women bleeding to death in alleys or dying from infections because they went to a dirty unequipped back alley clinic. And if you think I'm being dramatic and I've seen to many movies will I got news for you; Movies don't even come close to the horrors that real people do to each other. My mother is a emergency room nurse at St. Vincents Hospital, in Mannhattan. Dead in the heart of NYC, I will spare you the stories I wish i didn't know but, let's say there are many nights were my mother doesn't sleep because of what she sees. Point being, making it illegal or saying how horrible it is doesn't change anything. If a woman feels it nessecary to get rid of her child, she is going to find a way. And while no way is a good way, there option to get it done in a clean and safe place.

Life is not black and white, it's not even shades of grey, it's the technicolor dreamcoat and it has a strange way of giving some the wrong end of the stick. Your logic stands up on paper, but in the real world there what we call circumstances. Even in court there are many circumstances in which murder is not considered a crime. I have known three girls who have had abortions the closest being my sister.

Her first conception was at sixteen. After countless hours of talking and crying she decided to have an abortion. Two weeks after she came out of her room for the first time that wasn't going to the bathroom to shit or puke. I've never heard tears like that. Two years later, she gets pregant again. This times she doesn't even consider abortion. She is going to have her baby, she so excited talking about all the things she's going to but and do with the baby. How she's going to to be a mother. The baby comes and after about six months the sparkle has worn off and the reality of childcare has set in. She starts passing the baby off to anyone who would watch her. At times with people i wouldn't trust to borrow a dvd. One time I came home to find that the people my sister had left with the kid had left and she was alone because her ten minute trip to the store had been over three hours.

So a month or two later and she meets a guy from N. Carolina. A month after that he was her fiance and they were moving down to carolina together. She asked me and my mother if we'd take care of her for like a month or two until she got a steady job and a place to stay. Then she was going to come back pick her up and start their new life together. My neice was nine months old. The next time she saw her mother she was 7. She'll be 9 in january and me and my mother are still taking care of her. I was 16 then, and I became a father. despite no one ever calling me her father and repeatedly being told I'm her uncle for as long as I can remember she still to this day slips and calls me daddy sometimes. And to tell you the truth she is better off this way. But even I will admit I was not ready or able at sixteen to care for a child and I do beleive my neice has suffered for it. I think she could have been brought up better. And my story is the happy alternitive. In the not so happy version, the baby ends up in a dumpster dead because the mother tried to have it without anyone knowing

I said it in my first post, it is easy to be self-righteous, morally superior, sitting in the cheap seats where is has no effect on you personally. Even you personally said if faced with the choice you adamantly stated argument goes out the window and you would fold to the pressure. You claim it's glorified murder (in my opinion that makes it just like war, and people support that. but that's a different thread) and that all the excuses are irrelevant. So what's your excuse? What will make it right then? It being your personal problem and not someone elses? With all due respect you are a hypocrite. Yes you do have a100 percent right to state your opinion, if you are going to exercise that right so passionately you should have the conviction to stand by your words. But I think most people even on your side of the fence if they were honest with themselves would have to admit they would too.

I don't mean to harp on you but you had the most compelling arguement so I aimed at the top. I have nothing but respect for you and your argument, and I agree that this thread has few worthy contributions. So please don't take it wrong, I just wanted to have a good opponent.





Well put DK, but here’s my retaliation argument:

Statistics show that more than half of pregnancies in American women are unintended. Four in ten of these are terminated. This may not seem as abhorrently large a number as it is when put in terms like this. To elaborate on how common abortion has become because of its legalization I will further say that between the years 1973-2002 there have been over 42 million lives terminated in the U.S.A alone! Further statistics show that 48% of women between the aged 15-44 who go to have an abortion have had at least one previous abortion.

You say yourself that abortion is overused. However, when you get straight to it the very reason in which it is over used is because it is so easy and legal to get these days. You say that if women cannot legally get abortions they will do so in low down clinics. Yet it has been shown that poverty bitten areas are in higher rates of abortions in legal clinics. Minorities are also more likely to have abortions. (African Americans are about 4 times, and Hispanics are a rounded 2.5% more likely to have abortions.) This being said, even these people who are financially cursed and challenged are going through the medical bills to get a “Safe” abortion. So the average woman who has an abortion obviously knows the risks of going to filthy and unprofessional clinics.

Also you can note that there are more alcohol related deaths in American than deaths related to all illegal drugs put together. This is not because beer is as deadly or dangerous as acid, ice, or angel-dust. No, it’s because it is legal and sold by actual companies. Thus, in making abortion illegal we will automatically lower the rate in which pregnancies are being terminated. True, there are those who will go to these dirty places. However, this being said, their number will be greatly mitigated. Thus, accidents related to aborting, and health issues as a result of abortion in women will still go down. Even though the medical professionals are much safer than the alternative choice there are still more screw ups as a result of their operation than there are in these clinics you’re talking about. It’s simply because where there are more performances there are more mistakes.

Anyway, despite all that, you know what the four most common reasons women give for killing the baby in their womb? 1. “I don’t want to be a single parent” “I am having troubles with my partner.” (That’s about half of them right there. And, my-my, what a kick in the groin. Just because we are cursed enough to be born with a penis men are unworthy to decide the fate of their children.) 2. “It will interfere with my schooling or work.” 3. “I have responsibilities to others.” (Boyfriends, husbands, friends, family, ext.) 4. “I am having troubles with my partner.” (My-my, what a kick in the groin. Just because we are cursed enough to be born with a penis men are unworthy to decide the fate of their children.)

This being said a lot of most “Pro-Choice” supporters fight has just died. As you said my stuff looks good on paper but doesn’t apply to the real world. Well, this can be said for the pro-choice argument that these children -may- live an unfulfilled life because they are put up for adoption or go unloved. Because this is a may, and the average woman having an abortion doesn’t care about the maybes. They care about what they know -will- happen, as the above four reasons prove. Also, it’s showing that rape is not a common reason for abortion as it has been before suggested. (At least not common in relativity with other reasons.)

Fifty-four percent of women having abortions used some form of birth control around the time they became pregnant. 76% of pill users who have become pregnant and want and abortion and 49% of condom users agree that their pregnancy was likely the result of inconsistency with their birth control. This being said I think, rather than encourage abortion by making it easier to get and legal, we should discourage the murderous method of birth-control and encourage condoms and other birth-control methods. We should make those easier to come across. We should also better educated people on the proper administration of birth control.

Another thing is people are often acting as if terminating a baby is an act of generosity toward the baby. However, if you ask me this is obviously an absurd thing. This, of course, is, like everything else I’m saying (except the citations of fact) is of course my opinion. But, honestly, people say the child may not have a fulfilled life. Well, if you kill the child it’s no longer a -may- but a blunt 100% chance that you officially destroyed the child’s life.

Now people complain, “Most anti-abortionist are men! They don’t know what it’s like” and similar comments. However, did anyone stop to think that because the men are the ones who are not generally attached to the topic may have better judgments because their not being pushed by direct involvement to act rashly? It’s like a police officer not getting to work on the case of his wife’s murder.

To fall back on the whole streets thing, even including them, and medical institutions, there are fewer than 0.3% of abortions that result in injuries and the likes.

To continue back on, abortion is ultimately a selfish and cowardly thing in almost any circumstance. The woman does not think about the child, or the father (apparently), but rather herself. -She- doesn’t want to carry the baby. -She- doesn’t want to go through the trouble of putting the baby up for adoption. Forget everyone else’s rights and opinions. The rights and opinion of the human she is killing, of the man who may actually want (though unlikely I will admit) to be a father to the child. I’ve known a woman who had an abortion behind her husbands back. Yet, it’s not fair of me to judge cuz I never have and never can (unless science takes an interesting turn) be able to walk around with her womb and in her shoes. Still, that man had wanted the child, would have gladly taken him/her.

Also, for abortion of zygotes, it really is the destruction of part of his body. It’s his sperm inside her egg. A part of his body that he has the rights over. Of course that’s a stupid argument, but it’s somewhat humorous to me! :-D, (That was presented to me in all seriousness by a pro-life individual. I told her to stop her fight because she’ll hurt the cause with stupid arguments like that…)

Anyway, I’ll leave it off her for now. Remember people, I use terms that may offend, but I only do so to properly express my adamant feelings on the subject. I still reserve the freedom to express myself in whatever means, so long as it does not force umbrage or discomfort on anybody else. Although I say kill it is obviously a matter of opinion rather or not abortion is murder. In my opinion it is, and so when discussing my opinion I will continuously address it in such a way.

By the way, people, maybe it would be a good idea for us all to play devil’s advocate? If somebody is willing to try that with me I’d gladly switch sides with them. Maybe this will help us see the other end…?
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Posted 5/10/07
first i am against abortion

but how if the embryo is dead already..we can't say that is abortion
so..........we can't say that the zygot or the embryo is a living human til his or her heart beats as a sign of life
some countries use it not as a measurement for some couple in order to get rid off their "unexpected" pregnancy but to prevent genetic diseases running in the community.

what i thinnk......if there is no sign of life abortion is not crime otherwise it is
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Posted 5/10/07
So you think Human life is define by the heart? A single organ? What about people who have had something negligible like their tonsils removed? Or who have a pace maker to keep their heart beating…?

Also, if you are going to abort people to guard against the spread of genetically inherited diseases you might as well go and slaughter everyone with AIDS or other STDs or STIs…
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Posted 5/10/07
Abortion is legal and is right!!! Every woman has the right to choose whether or not they want to have a child!!! Though I am against women who use it as a form of a contraceptive!! If a woman is not prepared to have a child then why have it, so it can go into an orphanage or worse foster care!!! How many thousands of children are traumatized and abused because their parents or the government didn't give a second thought as to how they were going to provide for them (i.e. healthy environment, food, care, nurture, education, etc!!) Too little of them escape this fate.
However I do have a problem with women aborting after three months of pregnancy(aka first trimester or embryonic stage) It right after this that the body is going to be fully developed, not completely!!! It is also around the time where the brain starts taking full control of the body or is able to move the mucles throghout the body.
Abortion after that I find hard to accept!! It can be considered a person inside the womb. I consider it human by the time the brain has full control of the body,and it is fully developed, Organs and everything. which is around the end of the first trimester and the beginning of the second.
Also I think abortion should be allowed after the first trimester if the child is deformed to the extent that it would not live a healthy life.

I kind of understand where tunaiji is coming from. in the court of law if a husband murders his wife and rips the baby from the womb and pretty much smashes it against a wall or any thing to interfere with the survival of the child BUT the child never took a breath by itself, then it is considered his property and not murder towards the child of course, he is however guilty for killing the mother!! I remember reading something like that though I am not sure...
If I made a mistake please correct me, I'd appreciate it a lot.
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Posted 5/10/07


kr1ms0n13 wrote:

Abortion is legal and is right!!! Every woman has the right to choose whether or not they want to have a child!!! Though I am against women who use it as a form of a contraceptive!! If a woman is not prepared to have a child then why have it, so it can go into an orphanage or worse foster care!!! How many thousands of children are traumatized and abused because their parents or the government didn't give a second thought as to how they were going to provide for them (i.e. healthy environment, food, care, nurture, education, etc!!) Too little of them escape this fate.
However I do have a problem with women aborting after three months of pregnancy(aka first trimester or embryonic stage) It right after this that the body is going to be fully developed, not completely!!! It is also around the time where the brain starts taking full control of the body or is able to move the mucles throghout the body.
Abortion after that I find hard to accept!! It can be considered a person inside the womb. I consider it human by the time the brain has full control of the body,and it is fully developed, Organs and everything. which is around the end of the first trimester and the beginning of the second.
Also I think abortion should be allowed after the first trimester if the child is deformed to the extent that it would not live a healthy life.

I kind of understand where tunaiji is coming from. in the court of law if a husband murders his wife and rips the baby from the womb and pretty much smashes it against a wall or any thing to interfere with the survival of the child BUT the child never took a breath by itself, then it is considered his property and not murder towards the child of course, he is however guilty for killing the mother!! I remember reading something like that though I am not sure...
If I made a mistake please correct me, I'd appreciate it a lot.



Nothing I love more than people who call their opinions fact…

Okay now… For the last time people, those movies and books and junk exaggerate that junk. Living in foster care or in an orphanage is almost never that bad. If it was that common there wouldn’t be movies about it! I know countless people who never knew their parents and who live normal, happy lives. Most just view their lives as okay, decent, not great, not horrible.

Stop exaggerating. Anyway, are you honestly saying that they live lives so miserable that they are literal not valuable? Not worth living? That every child put in foster care should die?

Sure, there are a lot of people who live horrible lives because they are born and not wanted. But the same can be said for children who were wanted when they were born. This being said, should we then abort every child?!
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Posted 5/10/07

SeraphAlford wrote:



kr1ms0n13 wrote:

Abortion is legal and is right!!! Every woman has the right to choose whether or not they want to have a child!!! Though I am against women who use it as a form of a contraceptive!! If a woman is not prepared to have a child then why have it, so it can go into an orphanage or worse foster care!!! How many thousands of children are traumatized and abused because their parents or the government didn't give a second thought as to how they were going to provide for them (i.e. healthy environment, food, care, nurture, education, etc!!) Too little of them escape this fate.
However I do have a problem with women aborting after three months of pregnancy(aka first trimester or embryonic stage) It right after this that the body is going to be fully developed, not completely!!! It is also around the time where the brain starts taking full control of the body or is able to move the mucles throghout the body.
Abortion after that I find hard to accept!! It can be considered a person inside the womb. I consider it human by the time the brain has full control of the body,and it is fully developed, Organs and everything. which is around the end of the first trimester and the beginning of the second.
Also I think abortion should be allowed after the first trimester if the child is deformed to the extent that it would not live a healthy life.

I kind of understand where tunaiji is coming from. in the court of law if a husband murders his wife and rips the baby from the womb and pretty much smashes it against a wall or any thing to interfere with the survival of the child BUT the child never took a breath by itself, then it is considered his property and not murder towards the child of course, he is however guilty for killing the mother!! I remember reading something like that though I am not sure...
If I made a mistake please correct me, I'd appreciate it a lot.



Nothing I love more than people who call their opinions fact…

Okay now… For the last time people, those movies and books and junk exaggerate that junk. Living in foster care or in an orphanage is almost never that bad. If it was that common there wouldn’t be movies about it! I know countless people who never knew their parents and who live normal, happy lives. Most just view their lives as okay, decent, not great, not horrible.

Stop exaggerating. Anyway, are you honestly saying that they live lives so miserable that they are literal not valuable? Not worth living? That every child put in foster care should die?

Sure, there are a lot of people who live horrible lives because they are born and not wanted. But the same can be said for children who were wanted when they were born. This being said, should we then abort every child?!


As I said Abortion is the choice of every woman who decides to have a child, regardless of whether the child will have a happy life or sad one or will suffer whatever. If a woman does not wish to give birth then it is her choice!!
I am not saying that everyone in foster care had a horrible upbringing. Though Foster care in the United States is lacking in regulations and needs to be reformed!! What I am saying is if you dont want the child and do not wish to care for it then dont have it. Now if the woman wishes to have the child and doesn't want to care for it then give it to adoption. That however is not the choice of every woman, some just dont want to have children period. As I said and will repeat If the woman has no desire of having a child, knows and doesn't care for having a child, then don't have it. It's their body and their offspring, if they dont want to grant it life that is their problem. Just as long as it isn't by the time it is fully developed!!!
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Posted 5/10/07
Abortion is a choice. Everyone deserves a choice. Whether they "should" do it or not is not my place. (I think that they can if they want, to a degree - not just for some trivial reason, that is). Freedom of body, I suppose. And those crazy people who sit outside clinics and stuff are horrible. Calling people murderers while they're making an already difficult choice is horrible. No one deserves that kind of criticism or harassment.
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Posted 5/10/07

SephirothXIII wrote:

Abortion is a choice. Everyone deserves a choice. Whether they "should" do it or not is not my place. (I think that they can if they want, to a degree - not just for some trivial reason, that is). Freedom of body, I suppose. And those crazy people who sit outside clinics and stuff are horrible. Calling people murderers while they're making an already difficult choice is horrible. No one deserves that kind of criticism or harassment.


I totally agree with what you said ! I wouldn't call abortion murder either. Far too complicated (some people have to resorted to abortion if their pregnancy would put their lives at risk). Besides, if abortion is ever considered murder by law, i am sure birth control pills would soon be considered murder too (but then we would never know if the egg was fertilized or not during that time period they took the birth control)
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You’re all very right. Everybody deserves a the right to choice. (especially women apparently) But nobody deserves the right of discussion over somebody else’s life!

In the ancient Greek polis Athens histories favorite thespians had a law. By it parents were allowed to abandon their children in clay pots after they were born. Let them die in a tomb on the front steps. This was the earliest form of abortion.

If you ask me it sounds like glorified murder. These children can’t defend themselves, so their selfish mothers get the right to decide if they get to live or not?

That’s insane to me.

As always I’m only expressing my opinion. Sense it seems I’m relapsing on things once again I will quote my own essays…:

---------------1

We as people do not have the right to decide what life is, and who’s life is and is not valuable enough to keep or destroy. Although we are completely welcome to our own personal points of views these are not meant to be put out and into action. When they are you run into Hitler and Jack the Ripper. The former slaughtered Jews because he decided they were imperfect, the latter murdered sluts and whores and other people who he probably (as a character who was obviously educated and upper class) thought of as plagued peons.

Now, there are many ways to argue against that. It’s in the woman’s body so then the other human life that is living within her gets no rights and no longer has the value of a human (for various debated reasons) and cannot defend his/herself. Or the Child would live a horrible life if allowed to live. There are more, and I’ll address as many as I can.

Lets take the latter of the listed first.

People often use the idea that a child will be born with defects and thus be handicapped for life, or wont be loved by parents. Naturally people can counter the second of these with adoption, but this is often rencountered with “But children put up for adoption often don’t live fulfilled lives.” (this is something that has actually been said in this thread.) However, if we accept this then we are also saying:

1. That the life of adoptive children looses meaning because they are unfulfilled.
2. That the life of a handicapped or orphaned child is literally so miserable that it would actually be better off not to live at all.
3. Anybody put up for adoption or born handicapped should be put down like a dog to save them from their fate worse than death.

From my standpoint these are all of these are positively ridiculous. Yet, from what I’ve read, these have all been suggested at one point or another, but in more eloquent ways. Once we get bluntly down to the core of their meanings, however, these profound statements are directly unveiled as above. If you agree with the second and third then you should speak to Helen Keller. If you agree with the first then you need professional help… Whatever the case is, a mother does not have the right to decide rather or not her child’s life is valuable enough to preserve.


We also use rape, pregnancy, pain, and child birth to fight for the murder. However, these are merely selfish excuses. True, no woman deserves to have to go through a pregnancy as a result of rape. No mother deserves to have go through pregnancy alone, or to have the reminded of their tragedy. However, this being said, nobody deserves to be killed. No unborn child deserves to be slaughtered because their cowardly mother was not strong enough to go through with it. (Of course in such a situation I’d be just as much of a coward myself, but my integrity, fortitude, and general morality are not in question here.) Also, abortion is itself a painful operation, and can lead to just as many complications as actual childbirth. It can rupture and damage a woman in ways that will cause her excruciating agonies long after birth pains would.

Which leads me on to my next point. It’s the woman’s body. She should have the right to decide what to do with it, right? Wrong! It’s the child’s body within the woman. The woman does not have rights over the child’s life, only her own. If she goes out and kills herself she also murders the child. An unborn fetus has complete human rights, as even abortion supporters who are mature and honest will admit. (Read Judith. J. Thomson’s “A defense of abortion” for evidence of this.

Abortion is glorified murder. Perhaps murder with understandable reasoning behind it, but murder none the less. It’s a selfish mother deciding: A. Because her child is not yet fully developed his/her life is not worth keeping. B. Because the child causes her pain she should not have to take care of it. C. Because her child is the child of rape she doesn’t deserve to live! ( This kind of logic leads to the slaughter of unfortunate bastard children like me)

These are all absurd and do not in any way justify the slaughter of thousands of unborn babies like that which we are seeing. It’s ominous that so many people so adamantly defend abortion. Sense when is it that an individual has the right to decide rather or not somebody’s life is not valuable enough to preserve because it is under developed or because it is a inconvenience or pain to them? That would be like me going and shooting the president of my company in the face because the way he runs his business gets me paid me, or hurts the economy. Because it makes things harder for me, or puts me through pain. This is not right.

Then there is also the “The mother will die if she gives birth debate” However, this being said who’s to say the mother’s life is more valuable than the innocent infants? I also like the following quote:


I have been reading about abortion recently and came across a ‘thought experiment’ used by Judith Jarvis Thomson about an expanding baby. The scenario is that you're in your house when your baby starts expanding rapidly. You realise that you have no chance of getting out and the only way to survive is to pop and kill the baby. The idea is that this is an analogy for mothers who will die if an abortion is not performed i.e. is it ok to kill in this form of self-defence? These thought experiments are designed to provoke a moral attitude which can then be applied to discover your true feelings on a particular issue. My instant reaction was that yes, it was ok to pop the baby in order to survive and therefore I believe abortion is ok if it saves the life of the mother. However, imagine that the baby is now an analogy not for abortion but for a virus like AIDS, by the same thought experiment it could be argued that saying yes would justify killing everyone who had AIDS in order to save everyone else in the population. Killing in a form of self-defense. This clearly would not be moral. My question is then, how accurate are these thought experiments if the same answer can provoke the same gut reaction, lead us to the same argument which can be applied in two different situations, one of which is arguably moral and the other which is completely, undoubtedly immoral?


I could go on but I think this has been quite controversial enough. I’m going to get peached at so…

Well, everything I stated is MY PERSONAL view or OPINION. It is not fact and I do not mean to suggest that it is. I state some facts within my opinion to defend it, however, these do not necessarily mean my opinion is also fact. They can support my opinion and explain it, however, they may also be taken in text such as to support other points of view.

I stand by my right to have and express my opinion to the end, though you are all free to your own clashing opinions.

Also, people, before you judge other peoples adamancy and abstinence on this topic try and put yourselves in their shoes.

On my side of it this is a big deal. For me it’s a debate on the value of life, and I’m pro-life all the way.

For the opposition it is a debate on the value of freedom of choice. It’s a clash of perception between the two sides, but either way your looking at very important things that people -should not- be quickly swayed from. You understand what I am trying to say?


-------------2

Statistics show that more than half of pregnancies in American women are unintended. Four in ten of these are terminated. This may not seem as abhorrently large a number as it is when put in terms like this. To elaborate on how common abortion has become because of its legalization I will further say that between the years 1973-2002 there have been over 42 million lives terminated in the U.S.A alone! Further statistics show that 48% of women between the aged 15-44 who go to have an abortion have had at least one previous abortion.

You say yourself that abortion is overused. However, when you get straight to it the very reason in which it is over used is because it is so easy and legal to get these days. You say that if women cannot legally get abortions they will do so in low down clinics. Yet it has been shown that poverty bitten areas are in higher rates of abortions in legal clinics. Minorities are also more likely to have abortions. (African Americans are about 4 times, and Hispanics are a rounded 2.5% more likely to have abortions.) This being said, even these people who are financially cursed and challenged are going through the medical bills to get a “Safe” abortion. So the average woman who has an abortion obviously knows the risks of going to filthy and unprofessional clinics.

Also you can note that there are more alcohol related deaths in American than deaths related to all illegal drugs put together. This is not because beer is as deadly or dangerous as acid, ice, or angel-dust. No, it’s because it is legal and sold by actual companies. Thus, in making abortion illegal we will automatically lower the rate in which pregnancies are being terminated. True, there are those who will go to these dirty places. However, this being said, their number will be greatly mitigated. Thus, accidents related to aborting, and health issues as a result of abortion in women will still go down. Even though the medical professionals are much safer than the alternative choice there are still more screw ups as a result of their operation than there are in these clinics you’re talking about. It’s simply because where there are more performances there are more mistakes.

Anyway, despite all that, you know what the four most common reasons women give for killing the baby in their womb? 1. “I don’t want to be a single parent” “I am having troubles with my partner.” (That’s about half of them right there. And, my-my, what a kick in the groin. Just because we are cursed enough to be born with a penis men are unworthy to decide the fate of their children.) 2. “It will interfere with my schooling or work.” 3. “I have responsibilities to others.” (Boyfriends, husbands, friends, family, ext.) 4. “I am having troubles with my partner.” (My-my, what a kick in the groin. Just because we are cursed enough to be born with a penis men are unworthy to decide the fate of their children.)

This being said a lot of most “Pro-Choice” supporters fight has just died. As you said my stuff looks good on paper but doesn’t apply to the real world. Well, this can be said for the pro-choice argument that these children -may- live an unfulfilled life because they are put up for adoption or go unloved. Because this is a may, and the average woman having an abortion doesn’t care about the maybes. They care about what they know -will- happen, as the above four reasons prove. Also, it’s showing that rape is not a common reason for abortion as it has been before suggested. (At least not common in relativity with other reasons.)

Fifty-four percent of women having abortions used some form of birth control around the time they became pregnant. 76% of pill users who have become pregnant and want and abortion and 49% of condom users agree that their pregnancy was likely the result of inconsistency with their birth control. This being said I think, rather than encourage abortion by making it easier to get and legal, we should discourage the murderous method of birth-control and encourage condoms and other birth-control methods. We should make those easier to come across. We should also better educated people on the proper administration of birth control.

Another thing is people are often acting as if terminating a baby is an act of generosity toward the baby. However, if you ask me this is obviously an absurd thing. This, of course, is, like everything else I’m saying (except the citations of fact) is of course my opinion. But, honestly, people say the child may not have a fulfilled life. Well, if you kill the child it’s no longer a -may- but a blunt 100% chance that you officially destroyed the child’s life.

Now people complain, “Most anti-abortionist are men! They don’t know what it’s like” and similar comments. However, did anyone stop to think that because the men are the ones who are not generally attached to the topic may have better judgments because their not being pushed by direct involvement to act rashly? It’s like a police officer not getting to work on the case of his wife’s murder.

To fall back on the whole streets thing, even including them, and medical institutions, there are fewer than 0.3% of abortions that result in injuries and the likes.

To continue back on, abortion is ultimately a selfish and cowardly thing in almost any circumstance. The woman does not think about the child, or the father (apparently), but rather herself. -She- doesn’t want to carry the baby. -She- doesn’t want to go through the trouble of putting the baby up for adoption. Forget everyone else’s rights and opinions. The rights and opinion of the human she is killing, of the man who may actually want (though unlikely I will admit) to be a father to the child. I’ve known a woman who had an abortion behind her husbands back. Yet, it’s not fair of me to judge cuz I never have and never can (unless science takes an interesting turn) be able to walk around with her womb and in her shoes. Still, that man had wanted the child, would have gladly taken him/her.

Also, for abortion of zygotes, it really is the destruction of part of his body. It’s his sperm inside her egg. A part of his body that he has the rights over. Of course that’s a stupid argument, but it’s somewhat humorous to me! :-D, (That was presented to me in all seriousness by a pro-life individual. I told her to stop her fight because she’ll hurt the cause with stupid arguments like that…)

Anyway, I’ll leave it off her for now. Remember people, I use terms that may offend, but I only do so to properly express my adamant feelings on the subject. I still reserve the freedom to express myself in whatever means, so long as it does not force umbrage or discomfort on anybody else. Although I say kill it is obviously a matter of opinion rather or not abortion is murder. In my opinion it is, and so when discussing my opinion I will continuously address it in such a way.

By the way, people, maybe it would be a good idea for us all to play devil’s advocate? If somebody is willing to try that with me I’d gladly switch sides with them. Maybe this will help us see the other end…


Okay, that’s about 12 pages with double space (though only six in standard) I know it’s a lot to expect you to read that all, but if you do I’ll certainly respect your opinions more. (if nothing else you will be informed by the facts I cite.) At the very least try and skim through them please….
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Your right, everyone has an opinion.
I just don't like how abortion and birth control pills go hand in hand but abortion gets a more negative expression from society. (since birth control pills could release the egg fertile or not, which can be considered 'murder', just like abortion). What do you think of birth control then?
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If you agree with the second and third then you should speak to Helen Keller- That would be kinda hard cuz she can't hear or speak plus shes dead.

An unborn fetus has complete human rights, as even abortion supporters who are mature and honest will admit.- If that was the case abortion would be illeagal.

‘thought experiment’ - Maybe I'm just heartless but honostly killing everyone with aids off would not phase me. I'm not an evil person but really my response would be the same as the pop the baby.

This may not seem as abhorrently large a number as it is when put in terms like this. To elaborate on how common abortion has become because of its legalization I will further say that between the years 1973-2002 there have been over 42 million lives terminated in the U.S.A alone!- Our oppinions are extremely different. I don't consider them people yet. I had a teacher who said "Life is in touch when flash meets blood." What he said by this was that its not a human life untill the blood is infused in it.

Thus, in making abortion illegal we will automatically lower the rate in which pregnancies are being terminated.- What about the after effect? The population of the world is rising rapidly as it is take away abortions and it will rise faster.

4. “I am having troubles with my partner.” - you said that twice

Fifty-four percent of women having abortions used some form of birth control- So the majority of people having abortions never wanted the kid to begin with thats why they were on birth control.

encourage condoms and other birth-control methods. We should make those easier to come across.- uhm I donno but condoms and what not are acctully quite easy to get your hands on.

I read the whole thing and none of it is really that good or persuasive. I'm just going to say this. You say that the unborn fetus has human rights but does it? Its more of a leech especially if you never wanted a child, therefor, burn the leech off. Well I think that about sums up why I don't care if someone aborts or not. You all may think I'm a terrible person but oh well.
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lilprince wrote:


sugerbaybee wrote:


but- what about if it was a rape baby? i wouldnt want to grow up knowing i was a rape baby. and what if the girl was only 12? how could she handle 9 months of pegnancy?

maybe only some certain circumstances could be able to? and only the 1st trimester of pregnancy??


Ok so that ten year old who got pregnant is mature enough to have a baby? she just got out the sn womb her self, please...And there are ppl who have sex all the time that should never have kids, ppl who actual have kids who arent mature enough to be parents and this could be at any age so no hun




what are you talking about? u just said everything i said in different words. i just said that after a certain amont of time abortion souldnt be allowed. and if u didnt understand, i meant if the 12 year old got raped and pregnant.

basically i said "abortion SOMETIMES"
and you tell me im close-minded and abortion sould be allowed.

dont make no kinda sence.
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That would be kinda hard cuz she can't hear or speak plus shes dead.- LMAO!

If that was the case abortion would be illeagal.- Illegal doesn’t have 2 As just so you know. Also, sure it would. I said “Mature supporters” and most abortion supporters are not mature. (As this thread proves.)

Maybe I'm just heartless but honostly killing everyone with aids off would not phase me. I'm not an evil person but really my response would be the same as the pop the baby.- Yeah man, you are just heartless.

Our oppinions are extremely different. I don't consider them people yet. I had a teacher who said "Life is in touch when flash meets blood." What he said by this was that its not a human life untill the blood is infused in it.

What about the after effect? The population of the world is rising rapidly as it is take away abortions and it will rise faster.- So then mass slaughter is okay if it means keeping the world from getting over populated?

you said that twice-oops…

So the majority of people having abortions never wanted the kid to begin with thats why they were on birth control- Very true. But they got pregnant because they didn’t remain or properly use the birth control. So they obviously didn’t want to stay not pregnant enough! :p

uhm I donno but condoms and what not are acctully quite easy to get your hands on.-Not for adolescent people… (Except the cheap gas station ones that break.)

I read the whole thing and none of it is really that good or persuasive. I'm just going to say this. You say that the unborn fetus has human rights but does it? Its more of a leech especially if you never wanted a child, therefor, burn the leech off. Well I think that about sums up why I don't care if someone aborts or not. You all may think I'm a terrible person but oh well.- That’s probably cuz you adamant on your opinion and didn’t give it much chance. Then again, I’m not exactly Shakespear so it may be my writing capabilities. Who knows, but most of my other critics disagree with you. …Shoot, let my ego get the best of me again… (Though what I said is true.)

My last note: I just decided that something is not alive unless it has a penis; therefore, I’m going to kill women whenever they become an inconvenience to me.

Of course I don’t mean that. But that’s me deciding what life is. Should I be allowed to choose what life is and is not and then destroy what I decide is not life? That’s why I’m against the “pro-choice” debate.

Anyway, you’re free to your opinion. This is all just friendly debate.

P.S: People, don't bash other people for being narrow minded on this topic... I would hope they would be to a degree...


MyDigitalHeaven wrote:

Your right, everyone has an opinion.
I just don't like how abortion and birth control pills go hand in hand but abortion gets a more negative expression from society. (since birth control pills could release the egg fertile or not, which can be considered 'murder', just like abortion). What do you think of birth control then?


Birth control pills I'm against. I'm for condoms. Besides, when women take those devil pills they urinate the sperm killing chemicals out. Then these chemicals get into our reused water. (It can't be filtered out at the treatment plant) Men then drink it and it then kills our sperm and our ability to have children…


EDIT: To play devils advocate I think I will give a brief argument for abortion under certain circumstances. I will say that in pregnancies resulted from incest and rape (the likes) abortion should be legal and is okay. Here is why:

It is very true that a mother can effect the developmental health and condition through the power of her subliminal mind of an unborn fetus within her body. I will say that all life is equal, and just because somebody is an infant does not make them miraculously more important or valuable than somebody who’s been on the world for 20 or 30 years. (This is my actual feeling, though its not how I used to feel on the matter. It took an entire thread to change me to this point of view. You can probably look it up cuz it was here on CR.) So, this being said the mother’s life is no more important than the fetus’. However, at the same time we know that the mother’s life is tried and true. The baby is a bit of a gamble because he/she could die naturally or be born severely handicapped and live a quality of life that would have been otherwise of inferior quality to what the mother would have lived. In other words the child would greatly mitigate the woman’s comfort in life only to live a miserable life himself. But we know the mother is healthy (assuming) and she‘s alive one way or the other.

So then we couldn’t sacrifice the quality of her life for the chance of another life. The gamble that says the child may die tips the scale in favor of the mother…

Remember I’m fighting for an opinion I’m strongly apposed to, so forgive me if that was not entirely convincing?






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SeraphAlford wrote:


P.S: People, don't bash other people for being narrow minded on this topic... I would hope they would be to a degree...




I'm sorry if you thought I was bashing you or your oppinions but I wasn't. If thats even aimed at me.

I'm going to throw this onto my oppinion if the baby was born and could take care of itself. I would be against abortions. But because of finacial emotional and physical strain I'm glad its legal. And you can't use give it up for adoption because orphanages also need money to be run.

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