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Posted 4/8/13

al-noral wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:

^Actually helping the child and mother once it's born? Giving up your time and money after forcing someone to give birth because of your morals? Crazy talk. Once the baby has gone down fanny lane the majority of pro-lifer's regard their work as done, not their problem any longer and they can go home and think of themselves as a Good Person who saved a 'baby'. Who they will then bitch and moan about having to support with their taxes.



al-noral wrote:

Abortion is murder + an aborter is the murderer of an innocent.




All too easy to come with stuff like this when you aren't in the situation yourself. Many 'pro-life' people have a change of heart when they find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy.

No-one goes about having abortions for fun, due to the pain, cost and judgmental arseholes, it's usually out of desperation.


um. what you said is very true of course... but abortion is killing someone and when one kills another doesn't the killer become a murderer?


I don't consider a foetus 'someone' until around 24 weeks when it has a brain and can survive outside the womb. The majority of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks when it is not sentient or viable on it's own. Later abortions are rare and usually take place only when the mother's life is endangered. The woman carrying it however, there is no debate to be had, she is her own person and her wishes on what to do with her own body should take priority.

Murder is the un-lawful killing of another person with intent. A person who is sentient and, most importantly, not living off someone else's body.

Abortion is unique. You can't compare it to rape, murder, genocide etc because the foetus or whatever you want to call it is living inside another person, putting their life and health at risk by it's very presence, not to mention the dangers and agony of labour. It also affects one half of the population a great deal more than the other, which cannot be said about rape, murder or genocide.

Pregnancy, even a relatively straight forward one, is no picnic (in fact, abortion is safer than childbirth) and should not be forced upon anyone who is un-willing.
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Posted 4/8/13

miserykitsune wrote:


al-noral wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:

^Actually helping the child and mother once it's born? Giving up your time and money after forcing someone to give birth because of your morals? Crazy talk. Once the baby has gone down fanny lane the majority of pro-lifer's regard their work as done, not their problem any longer and they can go home and think of themselves as a Good Person who saved a 'baby'. Who they will then bitch and moan about having to support with their taxes.



al-noral wrote:

Abortion is murder + an aborter is the murderer of an innocent.




All too easy to come with stuff like this when you aren't in the situation yourself. Many 'pro-life' people have a change of heart when they find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy.

No-one goes about having abortions for fun, due to the pain, cost and judgmental arseholes, it's usually out of desperation.


um. what you said is very true of course... but abortion is killing someone and when one kills another doesn't the killer become a murderer?


I don't consider a foetus 'someone' until around 24 weeks when it has a brain and can survive outside the womb. The majority of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks when it is not sentient or viable on it's own. Later abortions are rare and usually take place only when the mother's life is endangered. The woman carrying it however, there is no debate to be had, she is her own person and her wishes on what to do with her own body should take priority.

Murder is the un-lawful killing of another person with intent. A person who is sentient and, most importantly, not living off someone else's body.

Abortion is unique. You can't compare it to rape, murder, genocide etc because the foetus or whatever you want to call it is living inside another person, putting their life and health at risk by it's very presence, not to mention the dangers and agony of labour. It also affects one half of the population a great deal more than the other, which cannot be said about rape, murder or genocide.

Pregnancy, even a relatively straight forward one, is no picnic (in fact, abortion is safer than childbirth) and should not be forced upon anyone who is un-willing.

your view is strong and i don't say it is wrong. guess we just have different views for i believe even that foetus or whatever has a soul.
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Posted 4/8/13

al-noral wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:


al-noral wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:

^Actually helping the child and mother once it's born? Giving up your time and money after forcing someone to give birth because of your morals? Crazy talk. Once the baby has gone down fanny lane the majority of pro-lifer's regard their work as done, not their problem any longer and they can go home and think of themselves as a Good Person who saved a 'baby'. Who they will then bitch and moan about having to support with their taxes.



al-noral wrote:

Abortion is murder + an aborter is the murderer of an innocent.




All too easy to come with stuff like this when you aren't in the situation yourself. Many 'pro-life' people have a change of heart when they find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy.

No-one goes about having abortions for fun, due to the pain, cost and judgmental arseholes, it's usually out of desperation.


um. what you said is very true of course... but abortion is killing someone and when one kills another doesn't the killer become a murderer?


I don't consider a foetus 'someone' until around 24 weeks when it has a brain and can survive outside the womb. The majority of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks when it is not sentient or viable on it's own. Later abortions are rare and usually take place only when the mother's life is endangered. The woman carrying it however, there is no debate to be had, she is her own person and her wishes on what to do with her own body should take priority.

Murder is the un-lawful killing of another person with intent. A person who is sentient and, most importantly, not living off someone else's body.

Abortion is unique. You can't compare it to rape, murder, genocide etc because the foetus or whatever you want to call it is living inside another person, putting their life and health at risk by it's very presence, not to mention the dangers and agony of labour. It also affects one half of the population a great deal more than the other, which cannot be said about rape, murder or genocide.

Pregnancy, even a relatively straight forward one, is no picnic (in fact, abortion is safer than childbirth) and should not be forced upon anyone who is un-willing.

your view is strong and i don't say it is wrong. guess we just have different views for i believe even that foetus or whatever has a soul.


Thanks for being civil, this topic usually descends into a shit-storm quite quickly.

I can see why that would be a concern for the religious, I personally don't really believe in souls or the afterlife. Perhaps if there is some all powerful deity then maybe they can 'save' or 'withhold' the soul and put it into another baby that will actually be born. Once you bring souls into it it's all just guesswork.
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Posted 4/10/13

miserykitsune wrote:


al-noral wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:


al-noral wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:

^Actually helping the child and mother once it's born? Giving up your time and money after forcing someone to give birth because of your morals? Crazy talk. Once the baby has gone down fanny lane the majority of pro-lifer's regard their work as done, not their problem any longer and they can go home and think of themselves as a Good Person who saved a 'baby'. Who they will then bitch and moan about having to support with their taxes.



al-noral wrote:

Abortion is murder + an aborter is the murderer of an innocent.




All too easy to come with stuff like this when you aren't in the situation yourself. Many 'pro-life' people have a change of heart when they find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy.

No-one goes about having abortions for fun, due to the pain, cost and judgmental arseholes, it's usually out of desperation.


um. what you said is very true of course... but abortion is killing someone and when one kills another doesn't the killer become a murderer?


I don't consider a foetus 'someone' until around 24 weeks when it has a brain and can survive outside the womb. The majority of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks when it is not sentient or viable on it's own. Later abortions are rare and usually take place only when the mother's life is endangered. The woman carrying it however, there is no debate to be had, she is her own person and her wishes on what to do with her own body should take priority.

Murder is the un-lawful killing of another person with intent. A person who is sentient and, most importantly, not living off someone else's body.

Abortion is unique. You can't compare it to rape, murder, genocide etc because the foetus or whatever you want to call it is living inside another person, putting their life and health at risk by it's very presence, not to mention the dangers and agony of labour. It also affects one half of the population a great deal more than the other, which cannot be said about rape, murder or genocide.

Pregnancy, even a relatively straight forward one, is no picnic (in fact, abortion is safer than childbirth) and should not be forced upon anyone who is un-willing.

your view is strong and i don't say it is wrong. guess we just have different views for i believe even that foetus or whatever has a soul.


Thanks for being civil, this topic usually descends into a shit-storm quite quickly.

I can see why that would be a concern for the religious, I personally don't really believe in souls or the afterlife. Perhaps if there is some all powerful deity then maybe they can 'save' or 'withhold' the soul and put it into another baby that will actually be born. Once you bring souls into it it's all just guesswork.


haha. Okay,right bout the guesswork thing. I just hope they do not end up suffering in the afterworld
Posted 6/3/13
Abortion should be legal in all cases, no exceptions.

I will never understand people's thinking, do you want the child to be stuck in a home where the mother doesn't want it? The mother shouldn't have to be forced to give birth to something she doesn't want. With how tough pregnancy could be when you actually want the child, imagine how it'd be if you didn't want it.

Do you want the girl to give birth to the child and give up school?
And imagine the crap she'll get after having the child.
What if the girl was raped? She should be forced to be reminded of what happened to her?
It should also be noted that abortion can help save a woman who has been abused. Yes, some cases the abusive father will get a woman pregnant to keep a hold on her, to control her of sorts. He will want that baby to be born so he can see that woman as much as he can and keep a hold on her.
What if the mother's life is in danger? She dies, so does the baby. I'd rather protect the mother than a clump of cells that can't feel pain or even think. A life is worth more than a POTENTIAL life. I can also tell some early commenters in this thread have been fed Anti-Choice propaganda.

Most abortions are done in the first 20 weeks of pregnancy, in other words, before the fetus can really develop anything. The only time later term abortions are done is if there is something wrong with the pregnancy. (The mother is in danger, the baby is having complications etc. etc.)

While there will be women that abuse the system they will not be the majority.
Abortion should always be legal so we can secure the safety of many, or would you rather women die getting back door abortions with coat hangers again?
Making it illegal will not stop abortions, it will just cause women to resort to other ways to get rid of a fetus they desperately do not want. I'd rather save the mother who is alive than the fetus that has yet to be born.

I may seem a bit harsh, but I greatly oppose the Pro-"life" agenda. They are not saving lives, they are trying to take a woman's right to her body away.
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Posted 6/3/13

FameMonster wrote:

Abortion should be legal in all cases, no exceptions.

I will never understand people's thinking, do you want the child to be stuck in a home where the mother doesn't want it? The mother shouldn't have to be forced to give birth to something she doesn't want. With how tough pregnancy could be when you actually want the child, imagine how it'd be if you didn't want it.

Do you want the girl to give birth to the child and give up school?
And imagine the crap she'll get after having the child.
What if the girl was raped? She should be forced to be reminded of what happened to her?
It should also be noted that abortion can help save a woman who has been abused. Yes, some cases the abusive father will get a woman pregnant to keep a hold on her, to control her of sorts. He will want that baby to be born so he can see that woman as much as he can and keep a hold on her.
What if the mother's life is in danger? She dies, so does the baby. I'd rather protect the mother than a clump of cells that can't feel pain or even think. A life is worth more than a POTENTIAL life. I can also tell some early commenters in this thread have been fed Anti-Choice propaganda.

Most abortions are done in the first 20 weeks of pregnancy, in other words, before the fetus can really develop anything. The only time later term abortions are done is if there is something wrong with the pregnancy. (The mother is in danger, the baby is having complications etc. etc.)

While there will be women that abuse the system they will not be the majority.
Abortion should always be legal so we can secure the safety of many, or would you rather women die getting back door abortions with coat hangers again?
Making it illegal will not stop abortions, it will just cause women to resort to other ways to get rid of a fetus they desperately do not want. I'd rather save the mother who is alive than the fetus that has yet to be born.

I may seem a bit harsh, but I greatly oppose the Pro-"life" agenda. They are not saving lives, they are trying to take a woman's right to her body away.


I completely agree with what you say. I see a lot of people arguing that abortion is murder, but they don't look at the other angles of the situation.

I have a medical condition that makes having children of my own difficult, and for a while I wasn't sure I'd be able to at all. I have epilepsy, and a lot of the medications used to treat epilepsy have really serious side effects during pregnancy. I'm on two medications for it, and one is good to get pregnant while taking, but the other isn't because it has been known to cause cleft pallet. Now, I'm not stupid and I make sure I'm as safe as I can be, but things can still go wrong and if I end up pregnant on accident despite all my precautions, I wouldn't be able to forgive myself for having a baby that I know could have cleft pallet.

I'm not saying that children with cleft pallet and other physical disorders don't belong in society or that I think they're gross or creepy. What I'm saying is that I'd feel guilty knowing that I knew it could happen and now my child has to live with bullying and low self-esteem, which for me is worse than not having the chance to live at all. I know, a lot of people would just say, "If it's so dangerous just don't have sex." Well, this is my life, not yours, and I'm not living recklessly.

For me, I really have to plan for children because I have to stop taking the one medication, which you can't just stop taking all at once. It takes months to come off of a medication because you have to lower the dosage little by little until you're completely off, so your body doesn't go through withdrawal and freak out. So, first I'd have to be off the medication. Then, I'd have to wait even longer until it's completely out of my body. And I know you're probably thinking that if I need the medication how can I stop taking it? I'm taking the second one in order to help with the headache side effect of the first one. I get really bad headaches, but this pairing of meds has really helped with that, and I guess I'll just be even more of a grumpy bitch during pregnancy.

Now, if abortion were completely illegal (in the US), and I got pregnant while on both meds, even though I took all the precautions I could, don't you think it's unfair to my child to have such a high chance of being born with cleft pallet? I'd get an abortion because I don't want my child to live with something so horrible like that.
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Posted 6/3/13 , edited 6/3/13
...Is a decision to be made between a woman and her physician. Everyone else can shut the f* up.
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Posted 6/4/13

spacebat wrote:

...Is a decision to be made between a woman and her physician. Everyone else can shut the f* up.


This this this.
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Posted 6/5/13

HeadofEraser wrote:


spacebat wrote:

...Is a decision to be made between a woman and her physician. Everyone else can shut the f* up.


This this this.


And this ,my dears, is the conclusion of this thread.
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Posted 6/5/13

aznfarseer wrote:

Yeah, I don't agree with abortion. If a legit couple has the mistake of conceiving a child they don't want, they have the responsibility to carry it out, even if it's to put it in an orphanage later. Abortion is like killing someone you don't like out of inconvenience.

There are exceptions, however. Suppose a woman is raped and later finds out she's pregnant because of it... there's no reason to put her in one-nine months of agony and a constant reminder of the horrendous event.


The later you stated, the woman better have screamed and fought off her attacker, but regardless, you abort a pregnancy, you have, murdered, a life, whether it's an unwanted pregnancy, and there is nothing that says the victim has to keep the child once born, does it?
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Posted 6/6/13
Have Pro-Life men ever experienced the kind of pain that women go through during child berth? I don't think they should be telling women to go through it if they have not.
Posted 6/6/13

The later you stated, the woman better have screamed and fought off her attacker, but regardless, you abort a pregnancy, you have, murdered, a life, whether it's an unwanted pregnancy, and there is nothing that says the victim has to keep the child once born, does it?


Excuse me.
the woman BETTER have?
what if she was drugged and couldn't fight him off? Does she not deserve the abortion? All because she couldn't scream/fight?
What about disabled women who have been raped and impregnated, they don't deserve it cause they can't fight their attacker off?

Well, there ya' have it folks! You were gagged and couldn't scream for help? You don't deserve that abortion. You were drugged and literally could do nothing? Oh, well, too bad. Don't meet the criteria.

It's not murder, it isn't even a life. It's a potential life and the woman is more important than a clump of cells.
also, we all know that adoption is just fool proof and no child ever ends up in a horrible home.
Hell, a lot of people preach about how woman can give the child up for adoption, but do you actually know how LITTLE people adopt? There are too many risks with putting that child up for adoption, it's better to not have it. It's better it's never born and have to face that.

here's some statistics for ya':
https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/s_seek.cfm

Stop wanting to force someone to carry an unwanted pregnancy. No one deserves to be subjected to something like that ESPECIALLY when they don't want it. It is not healthy at all for the woman.
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Posted 6/6/13

FameMonster wrote:



I very much agree with you. I was afraid this was going to start going into "legitimate rape" territory, not that you'd take it in that direction. Women still die in childbirth, though it's much less frequent than it used to be. And really, I brought up the point earlier in this thread that certain moralists wouldn't lift a finger to help the child that they insisted must be born. I stated, and rightly so, that some of these same moralists denigrate all these kids in orphanages or living on welfare as just "sucking on the public teat", as one obnoxious Republican put it.

So they want to blame the victims of rape, force them through legal action to bear all the risks and expenses of an unwanted pregnancy, and then turn a blind eye to the plight of inevitable kids in the adoption system. It's a sociopathic, selfish mentality, that's what it is. I'd have more respect for their position, if they were making it a point to not only aid these victimized women, but actually adopt the kids that result. But that's not how the vast majority of them operate, and that both saddens and sickens me.
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Posted 6/6/13
There are psychological issues for a child who was put up for adoption as well. If they find out their mother didn't want them, but couldn't/didn't want to go through with an abortion then it gives them a complex, because now they know they were unwanted and maybe shouldn't even be here. I mean, what kid that was put up for adoption, whether they get adopted or not, doesn't wonder who their real parents are and why they were given up? That's not fair to them to live with that emotional pain.

I also view pregnancy and birth as a potentially happy experience, and if you're forced to go through a pregnancy that shouldn't have happened, you won't enjoy it, you'll have bad memories associated with it, and you maybe won't even want to have other kids later. Granted, I still don't agree with people being stupid and making the mistake of just not using protection and thinking, "well, if I get an abortion I don't have to deal with it." But, there is more to it than that. An unwanted child is likely to end up relatively unloved (though it's not always the case), the parent(s) might not always have the finances to take care of the child, the parents are unhappy (one might even give up and leave), if they're teens the teen's parents might be forced to either take care of the baby or kick their teen out, and overall the result is a very unhappy one for the parents and the child. Adoption has the potential to end happily, but doesn't always, and if that's something parents would rather look into than abortion, then they really need to do research and maybe even find a family before the birth.
Posted 6/6/13

Spazticus wrote:

I very much agree with you. I was afraid this was going to start going into "legitimate rape" territory, not that you'd take it in that direction. Women still die in childbirth, though it's much less frequent than it used to be. And really, I brought up the point earlier in this thread that certain moralists wouldn't lift a finger to help the child that they insisted must be born. I stated, and rightly so, that some of these same moralists denigrate all these kids in orphanages or living on welfare as just "sucking on the public teat", as one obnoxious Republican put it.

So they want to blame the victims of rape, force them through legal action to bear all the risks and expenses of an unwanted pregnancy, and then turn a blind eye to the plight of inevitable kids in the adoption system. It's a sociopathic, selfish mentality, that's what it is. I'd have more respect for their position, if they were making it a point to not only aid these victimized women, but actually adopt the kids that result. But that's not how the vast majority of them operate, and that both saddens and sickens me.


They really are a hypocritical movement.
Pro-Life yet they think single mothers are an abomination. They want those children to be put up for adoption, but they'll tell homosexual couples no and they won't do anything themselves. They only care about the fetus being born, not its life outside the womb nor do they care about the mother's life.

If anything, they're Pro-Birth not Pro-Life.
There is nothing I like about that movement.
Just. Nothing.

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