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Posted 4/3/13 , edited 4/3/13

miserykitsune wrote:


ravinia2112 wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:
Personally, the thought of having to keep my rapist's baby 'because it is 'innocent' fills me with disgust. I would have an abortion without hesitation and I very much doubt I'd have any regrets, other than that I can't have my rapist thrown into an acid vat. I'd wager a quite a few women feel the same way (maybe not with my idea of revenge though)

I see that you live in Ireland, but in many U.S. states, unless a woman would be be A-okay co-parenting with a rapist, they'd need to throw them in an acid vat, bankrupt themselves paying lawyers to represent them in family court, take their child and go into hiding or never press charges for the rape if that would mean naming him as the father (or he'd figure it out during the course of the trial, like if she were visibly pregnant; he could demand a DNA test the same as anyone else), because rapists have the exact same parental rights as any other father. This means the woman couldn't just give the child up for adoption, either, without the rapist's consent.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/26/pregnant-rape-abortion_n_2552183.html

I just wanted to put this out there, because a lot of people think a child being conceived in rape automatically denies the father parental rights.

Untrue, at least in the applicable U.S. states and wherever else it might apply.

For those who believe women should still give birth even in cases of rape, how does this factor?



I don't think that is the case in Ireland, as bad as we are, but it is absolutely disgusting.

Who the fuck thought that would be a good idea?



From what I understand, the majority of it's been allowed due what could be called...oversight? It was assumed that rapists would either never seek parental rights, or they wouldn't be granted if they did. (AFAIK, occurrences of their seeking rights have been fairly recent, so I guess it could also be called a new issue?) So because there was no specific rule against it, by default they were granted the same rights as anyone else. I haven't seen anything saying that any of the states allowing it actually decided to allow it, but AFAIK, those who don't had to pass specific legislation disallowing it. I'm not positive the map is currently 100% accurate, as I read that a few other states had/have legislation in the works to disallow. Missouri, Maryland, Utah, Arkansas and Florida, if I remember correctly. I believe Missouri's and Utah's passed. Not certain how the others turned out. But even if it passed in all five of those, that would still leave 26 states allowing it.

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Posted 4/3/13
Alright this is a pretty interesting Topic. If you want to say wether abortion is wrong or not, you first have to precisly define when human live begins. And IMO it begins with the baby being born. I think this way because a child has only limited apperceptions (I think this is the correct term), when its still unborn. I think abortion needs to be allowed, because people do mistakes they may regret and abortion may help those who think they did a mistake by getting a child.
Posted 4/4/13
In my opinion abortion is not right or wrong. It is the intention that counts.
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Posted 4/5/13
I would never want to give birth to a child I didn't even want, who wishes they were never even born, who continues to live a miserable life until they commit suicide.
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Posted 4/5/13
Another interesting thing I heard.

There is quite the possibility your mother had an abortion before she had you, and the only reason you exist is BECAUSE of the abortion she had before.

Another take on the whole 'What if you had been aborted?' thing.

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Posted 4/8/13

miserykitsune wrote:

^Actually helping the child and mother once it's born? Giving up your time and money after forcing someone to give birth because of your morals? Crazy talk. Once the baby has gone down fanny lane the majority of pro-lifer's regard their work as done, not their problem any longer and they can go home and think of themselves as a Good Person who saved a 'baby'. Who they will then bitch and moan about having to support with their taxes.



al-noral wrote:

Abortion is murder + an aborter is the murderer of an innocent.




All too easy to come with stuff like this when you aren't in the situation yourself. Many 'pro-life' people have a change of heart when they find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy.

No-one goes about having abortions for fun, due to the pain, cost and judgmental arseholes, it's usually out of desperation.


um. what you said is very true of course... but abortion is killing someone and when one kills another doesn't the killer become a murderer?
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Posted 4/8/13

al-noral wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:

^Actually helping the child and mother once it's born? Giving up your time and money after forcing someone to give birth because of your morals? Crazy talk. Once the baby has gone down fanny lane the majority of pro-lifer's regard their work as done, not their problem any longer and they can go home and think of themselves as a Good Person who saved a 'baby'. Who they will then bitch and moan about having to support with their taxes.



al-noral wrote:

Abortion is murder + an aborter is the murderer of an innocent.




All too easy to come with stuff like this when you aren't in the situation yourself. Many 'pro-life' people have a change of heart when they find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy.

No-one goes about having abortions for fun, due to the pain, cost and judgmental arseholes, it's usually out of desperation.


um. what you said is very true of course... but abortion is killing someone and when one kills another doesn't the killer become a murderer?


I don't consider a foetus 'someone' until around 24 weeks when it has a brain and can survive outside the womb. The majority of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks when it is not sentient or viable on it's own. Later abortions are rare and usually take place only when the mother's life is endangered. The woman carrying it however, there is no debate to be had, she is her own person and her wishes on what to do with her own body should take priority.

Murder is the un-lawful killing of another person with intent. A person who is sentient and, most importantly, not living off someone else's body.

Abortion is unique. You can't compare it to rape, murder, genocide etc because the foetus or whatever you want to call it is living inside another person, putting their life and health at risk by it's very presence, not to mention the dangers and agony of labour. It also affects one half of the population a great deal more than the other, which cannot be said about rape, murder or genocide.

Pregnancy, even a relatively straight forward one, is no picnic (in fact, abortion is safer than childbirth) and should not be forced upon anyone who is un-willing.
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Posted 4/8/13

miserykitsune wrote:


al-noral wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:

^Actually helping the child and mother once it's born? Giving up your time and money after forcing someone to give birth because of your morals? Crazy talk. Once the baby has gone down fanny lane the majority of pro-lifer's regard their work as done, not their problem any longer and they can go home and think of themselves as a Good Person who saved a 'baby'. Who they will then bitch and moan about having to support with their taxes.



al-noral wrote:

Abortion is murder + an aborter is the murderer of an innocent.




All too easy to come with stuff like this when you aren't in the situation yourself. Many 'pro-life' people have a change of heart when they find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy.

No-one goes about having abortions for fun, due to the pain, cost and judgmental arseholes, it's usually out of desperation.


um. what you said is very true of course... but abortion is killing someone and when one kills another doesn't the killer become a murderer?


I don't consider a foetus 'someone' until around 24 weeks when it has a brain and can survive outside the womb. The majority of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks when it is not sentient or viable on it's own. Later abortions are rare and usually take place only when the mother's life is endangered. The woman carrying it however, there is no debate to be had, she is her own person and her wishes on what to do with her own body should take priority.

Murder is the un-lawful killing of another person with intent. A person who is sentient and, most importantly, not living off someone else's body.

Abortion is unique. You can't compare it to rape, murder, genocide etc because the foetus or whatever you want to call it is living inside another person, putting their life and health at risk by it's very presence, not to mention the dangers and agony of labour. It also affects one half of the population a great deal more than the other, which cannot be said about rape, murder or genocide.

Pregnancy, even a relatively straight forward one, is no picnic (in fact, abortion is safer than childbirth) and should not be forced upon anyone who is un-willing.

your view is strong and i don't say it is wrong. guess we just have different views for i believe even that foetus or whatever has a soul.
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Posted 4/8/13

al-noral wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:


al-noral wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:

^Actually helping the child and mother once it's born? Giving up your time and money after forcing someone to give birth because of your morals? Crazy talk. Once the baby has gone down fanny lane the majority of pro-lifer's regard their work as done, not their problem any longer and they can go home and think of themselves as a Good Person who saved a 'baby'. Who they will then bitch and moan about having to support with their taxes.



al-noral wrote:

Abortion is murder + an aborter is the murderer of an innocent.




All too easy to come with stuff like this when you aren't in the situation yourself. Many 'pro-life' people have a change of heart when they find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy.

No-one goes about having abortions for fun, due to the pain, cost and judgmental arseholes, it's usually out of desperation.


um. what you said is very true of course... but abortion is killing someone and when one kills another doesn't the killer become a murderer?


I don't consider a foetus 'someone' until around 24 weeks when it has a brain and can survive outside the womb. The majority of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks when it is not sentient or viable on it's own. Later abortions are rare and usually take place only when the mother's life is endangered. The woman carrying it however, there is no debate to be had, she is her own person and her wishes on what to do with her own body should take priority.

Murder is the un-lawful killing of another person with intent. A person who is sentient and, most importantly, not living off someone else's body.

Abortion is unique. You can't compare it to rape, murder, genocide etc because the foetus or whatever you want to call it is living inside another person, putting their life and health at risk by it's very presence, not to mention the dangers and agony of labour. It also affects one half of the population a great deal more than the other, which cannot be said about rape, murder or genocide.

Pregnancy, even a relatively straight forward one, is no picnic (in fact, abortion is safer than childbirth) and should not be forced upon anyone who is un-willing.

your view is strong and i don't say it is wrong. guess we just have different views for i believe even that foetus or whatever has a soul.


Thanks for being civil, this topic usually descends into a shit-storm quite quickly.

I can see why that would be a concern for the religious, I personally don't really believe in souls or the afterlife. Perhaps if there is some all powerful deity then maybe they can 'save' or 'withhold' the soul and put it into another baby that will actually be born. Once you bring souls into it it's all just guesswork.
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Posted 4/10/13

miserykitsune wrote:


al-noral wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:


al-noral wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:

^Actually helping the child and mother once it's born? Giving up your time and money after forcing someone to give birth because of your morals? Crazy talk. Once the baby has gone down fanny lane the majority of pro-lifer's regard their work as done, not their problem any longer and they can go home and think of themselves as a Good Person who saved a 'baby'. Who they will then bitch and moan about having to support with their taxes.



al-noral wrote:

Abortion is murder + an aborter is the murderer of an innocent.




All too easy to come with stuff like this when you aren't in the situation yourself. Many 'pro-life' people have a change of heart when they find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy.

No-one goes about having abortions for fun, due to the pain, cost and judgmental arseholes, it's usually out of desperation.


um. what you said is very true of course... but abortion is killing someone and when one kills another doesn't the killer become a murderer?


I don't consider a foetus 'someone' until around 24 weeks when it has a brain and can survive outside the womb. The majority of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks when it is not sentient or viable on it's own. Later abortions are rare and usually take place only when the mother's life is endangered. The woman carrying it however, there is no debate to be had, she is her own person and her wishes on what to do with her own body should take priority.

Murder is the un-lawful killing of another person with intent. A person who is sentient and, most importantly, not living off someone else's body.

Abortion is unique. You can't compare it to rape, murder, genocide etc because the foetus or whatever you want to call it is living inside another person, putting their life and health at risk by it's very presence, not to mention the dangers and agony of labour. It also affects one half of the population a great deal more than the other, which cannot be said about rape, murder or genocide.

Pregnancy, even a relatively straight forward one, is no picnic (in fact, abortion is safer than childbirth) and should not be forced upon anyone who is un-willing.

your view is strong and i don't say it is wrong. guess we just have different views for i believe even that foetus or whatever has a soul.


Thanks for being civil, this topic usually descends into a shit-storm quite quickly.

I can see why that would be a concern for the religious, I personally don't really believe in souls or the afterlife. Perhaps if there is some all powerful deity then maybe they can 'save' or 'withhold' the soul and put it into another baby that will actually be born. Once you bring souls into it it's all just guesswork.


haha. Okay,right bout the guesswork thing. I just hope they do not end up suffering in the afterworld
Posted 6/3/13
Abortion should be legal in all cases, no exceptions.

I will never understand people's thinking, do you want the child to be stuck in a home where the mother doesn't want it? The mother shouldn't have to be forced to give birth to something she doesn't want. With how tough pregnancy could be when you actually want the child, imagine how it'd be if you didn't want it.

Do you want the girl to give birth to the child and give up school?
And imagine the crap she'll get after having the child.
What if the girl was raped? She should be forced to be reminded of what happened to her?
It should also be noted that abortion can help save a woman who has been abused. Yes, some cases the abusive father will get a woman pregnant to keep a hold on her, to control her of sorts. He will want that baby to be born so he can see that woman as much as he can and keep a hold on her.
What if the mother's life is in danger? She dies, so does the baby. I'd rather protect the mother than a clump of cells that can't feel pain or even think. A life is worth more than a POTENTIAL life. I can also tell some early commenters in this thread have been fed Anti-Choice propaganda.

Most abortions are done in the first 20 weeks of pregnancy, in other words, before the fetus can really develop anything. The only time later term abortions are done is if there is something wrong with the pregnancy. (The mother is in danger, the baby is having complications etc. etc.)

While there will be women that abuse the system they will not be the majority.
Abortion should always be legal so we can secure the safety of many, or would you rather women die getting back door abortions with coat hangers again?
Making it illegal will not stop abortions, it will just cause women to resort to other ways to get rid of a fetus they desperately do not want. I'd rather save the mother who is alive than the fetus that has yet to be born.

I may seem a bit harsh, but I greatly oppose the Pro-"life" agenda. They are not saving lives, they are trying to take a woman's right to her body away.
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Posted 6/3/13

FameMonster wrote:

Abortion should be legal in all cases, no exceptions.

I will never understand people's thinking, do you want the child to be stuck in a home where the mother doesn't want it? The mother shouldn't have to be forced to give birth to something she doesn't want. With how tough pregnancy could be when you actually want the child, imagine how it'd be if you didn't want it.

Do you want the girl to give birth to the child and give up school?
And imagine the crap she'll get after having the child.
What if the girl was raped? She should be forced to be reminded of what happened to her?
It should also be noted that abortion can help save a woman who has been abused. Yes, some cases the abusive father will get a woman pregnant to keep a hold on her, to control her of sorts. He will want that baby to be born so he can see that woman as much as he can and keep a hold on her.
What if the mother's life is in danger? She dies, so does the baby. I'd rather protect the mother than a clump of cells that can't feel pain or even think. A life is worth more than a POTENTIAL life. I can also tell some early commenters in this thread have been fed Anti-Choice propaganda.

Most abortions are done in the first 20 weeks of pregnancy, in other words, before the fetus can really develop anything. The only time later term abortions are done is if there is something wrong with the pregnancy. (The mother is in danger, the baby is having complications etc. etc.)

While there will be women that abuse the system they will not be the majority.
Abortion should always be legal so we can secure the safety of many, or would you rather women die getting back door abortions with coat hangers again?
Making it illegal will not stop abortions, it will just cause women to resort to other ways to get rid of a fetus they desperately do not want. I'd rather save the mother who is alive than the fetus that has yet to be born.

I may seem a bit harsh, but I greatly oppose the Pro-"life" agenda. They are not saving lives, they are trying to take a woman's right to her body away.


I completely agree with what you say. I see a lot of people arguing that abortion is murder, but they don't look at the other angles of the situation.

I have a medical condition that makes having children of my own difficult, and for a while I wasn't sure I'd be able to at all. I have epilepsy, and a lot of the medications used to treat epilepsy have really serious side effects during pregnancy. I'm on two medications for it, and one is good to get pregnant while taking, but the other isn't because it has been known to cause cleft pallet. Now, I'm not stupid and I make sure I'm as safe as I can be, but things can still go wrong and if I end up pregnant on accident despite all my precautions, I wouldn't be able to forgive myself for having a baby that I know could have cleft pallet.

I'm not saying that children with cleft pallet and other physical disorders don't belong in society or that I think they're gross or creepy. What I'm saying is that I'd feel guilty knowing that I knew it could happen and now my child has to live with bullying and low self-esteem, which for me is worse than not having the chance to live at all. I know, a lot of people would just say, "If it's so dangerous just don't have sex." Well, this is my life, not yours, and I'm not living recklessly.

For me, I really have to plan for children because I have to stop taking the one medication, which you can't just stop taking all at once. It takes months to come off of a medication because you have to lower the dosage little by little until you're completely off, so your body doesn't go through withdrawal and freak out. So, first I'd have to be off the medication. Then, I'd have to wait even longer until it's completely out of my body. And I know you're probably thinking that if I need the medication how can I stop taking it? I'm taking the second one in order to help with the headache side effect of the first one. I get really bad headaches, but this pairing of meds has really helped with that, and I guess I'll just be even more of a grumpy bitch during pregnancy.

Now, if abortion were completely illegal (in the US), and I got pregnant while on both meds, even though I took all the precautions I could, don't you think it's unfair to my child to have such a high chance of being born with cleft pallet? I'd get an abortion because I don't want my child to live with something so horrible like that.
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Posted 6/3/13 , edited 6/3/13
...Is a decision to be made between a woman and her physician. Everyone else can shut the f* up.
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Posted 6/4/13

spacebat wrote:

...Is a decision to be made between a woman and her physician. Everyone else can shut the f* up.


This this this.
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Posted 6/5/13

HeadofEraser wrote:


spacebat wrote:

...Is a decision to be made between a woman and her physician. Everyone else can shut the f* up.


This this this.


And this ,my dears, is the conclusion of this thread.
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