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Post Reply Who's Death was the Most Necessary and Least Necessary?
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Posted 6/9/09
i think the most necessary death was euphemia, even though i hated that she died; her death brought zero closer to the japanese, all of them thought she was a "murderous bitch" and started to resist the britania; as a result lelouch gains lot of supporters, even though it was his own doing the japanese never knew.

the least necessary death was shirley, her death did not serve a purpose other than making lelouch decided to kill his father and himself and other geass users...damn rolo.
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I don't think there was any unnecessary deaths, only in the way that they were executed. I believe and took Lelouch's side in that almost all of the royal family must be eliminated otherwise Brittania's rule would never end. I agree that Euphy's end was a tad cruel, but necessary for the greater good, that also applies to the innocent children of geass that were massacred. Euphy's actions were selfish along with many others, but Lelouch was always acting for Japan and Nunnally in the end. So he had to take a "path of evil" if he hadn't the oppression of mankind would have continued. Lelouch realized full well the consequences of his actions and took the responsibility in the end.
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Posted 6/13/09

infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.




I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....
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Posted 6/13/09 , edited 6/13/09

shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....

beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.




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sakura49 wrote:

i think the most necessary death was euphemia, even though i hated that she died; her death brought zero closer to the japanese, all of them thought she was a "murderous bitch" and started to resist the britania; as a result lelouch gains lot of supporters, even though it was his own doing the japanese never knew.

the least necessary death was shirley, her death did not serve a purpose other than making lelouch decided to kill his father and himself and other geass users...damn rolo.


I say the least necessary death was Euphemia's, because it was necessary for her to live for me to have any interest in the rest of the story. I hear that Lelouch, Kalllen and CC are not tortured to death in the second season for killing Euphemia, nor Charles and VV for just letting them do so without intervening to save her, so there is nothing that I want to see in the second season.

Of all the characters in Code Geass, only Euphemia, Shirley, Milly and Rivalez never did anything evil as far as I know. And they suffered a fifty percent fatality rate while the evil characters, just about everyone else, got off with much lighter losses. And of all the political and military leaders and followers in Code Geass, only Euphemia was good and decent. Without her the show is just evil people fighting other evil people. It is as depressing as watching a documentary about the fight between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia in World War II.

Lelouch believed that Zero was already so popular with the Japanese that thousands would throw themselves on the Britannians in suicidal fury when he made Euphemia shoot him. So why would Lelouch/Zero need any more popularity with the Japanese? Was it even possible for anyone to be more popular than Lelouch believed that Zero already was? So I don't see Euphie's death being necessary for Zero's popularity in the second season.
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alive86 wrote:

I don't think there was any unnecessary deaths, only in the way that they were executed. I believe and took Lelouch's side in that almost all of the royal family must be eliminated otherwise Brittania's rule would never end. I agree that Euphy's end was a tad cruel, but necessary for the greater good, that also applies to the innocent children of geass that were massacred. Euphy's actions were selfish along with many others, but Lelouch was always acting for Japan and Nunnally in the end. So he had to take a "path of evil" if he hadn't the oppression of mankind would have continued. Lelouch realized full well the consequences of his actions and took the responsibility in the end.


I say that Lelouch took the wrong side, and that he shouldn't have cared about a little thing like Britannian oppression, Instead he should have helped Britannia conquer, unite,and pacify the world. War is a much greater evil than oppression.

Besides, if Britannia conquered the world the best efforts of Britannian bigots would not prevent the eventual assimilation of the Britannians and the Numbers into one equal people. It would have taken just two or three centuries. It took just two or three centuries to turn Gauls and Spaniards, Africans and Egyptians, Syrians and Greeks into Romans, and Romans into all the people of the Roman Empire. And it took just a few centuries for all the tribes and nations that were conquered by the Japanese expanding from the heartland of Yamato to forget their initial oppression by the Japanese and hatred for the Japanese and become just as Japanese as the original Japanese.

If Britannia conquered all the world there wouldn't be any foreign governments to supply weapons and money to rebel groups (I suspect that the Kyoto group got most of its money from foreign government like the Chinese Federation and the Euro Universe seeking to undermine Britannia). With foreign aid most rebellions and revolutions fail; without out foreign aid almost all rebellions fail. Thus once the world is united it will be almost totally impossible to overthrow the world government. The peace could last for many thousands of years. Tens of thousands of years, hundreds of thousands of years, millions of years, tens of millions of years.

In the second season Britannia inflicted a heavy defeat on the Euro Universe and negotiated a royal marriage between the crown prince and the Chinese Empress. Thus two thirds of mankind would be peacefully united by a marriage. Then the other nations would have to negotiate with Britannia-Chine to become protected allies or client states or something to avoid being conquered and turned into Areas. but Lelouch and the Black knights broke up the Britannian-Chinese marriage and fought against Britannia to stop its conquest of the world.

After the exhaustion of all the recent wars, and the relief of the Zero Requiem, wears off the world will go back to war at the usual rate of death and destruction. The united Federation of Nations might be stronger than the League of nations or the United Nations of our
world but it will still be too weak to keep the peace.

If ten thousand to one million people are killed in wars in an average year, than ten million to one billion people will be killed every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion will be killed every million years, As a result of Lelouch fighting against the lesser evil of Britannian oppression instead of the greater evil of the existence of independent nations which makes war possible.

You say that Euphie's death was a tad cruel but necessary for the greater good, as was that of the innocent children killed in the Geass Directorate Massacre.

I say that Euphemia's murder was one of the worst that I ever saw on television, and that her survival was necessary for the greater good.

Lelouch clearly had many chances to capture Euphemia alive. Then she could have been confined with very little chance of escaping and killing other Japanese. She would not have been any more dangerous than any Britannian soldier who was free and might be ordered to carryout a massacre in the future.

Of course it is possible that her geass command might have worn off and ran out of energy after an unknown period of years.

If Euphemia was alive her guardians could have negotiated for the use of the geass canceler on her when it was introduced the next year.

If lleouch cared enough to ask CC for other options, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth of her age, she could have told Lleouch that VV could undo the geass command (and who know how many other ways of curing Euphemia CC might have known about). So curing Euphemia was not a scientific problem but a simple matter of negotiation. Most immortals like VV probably have a poverty phobia and will do anything easy for money they can invest for hundreds of years in one of their secret eternal retirement funds. ( At ten percent compound annual growth an investment will become a trillion times as much in less than three hundred years).

But Euphemia seemed to be breaking free of her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch. Just seconds before it could make her try to kill despite her intense hatred of violence. Now the geass could not overcome her much weaker desire to talk with someone familiar. With new Japanese babies being born every minute Euphemia had no time to waste, but she made no effort to kill Japanese after she apologized to Lelouch for shooting at his nightmare.

Lelouch saw Euphemia's superhuman reluctance to kill when she resisted the geass command at first and he saw her freeing herself from the geass command as she talked to him. And he took advantage of her trust in him to murder her in safety anyway.

Lelouch panned to lured Emperor Charles into a state visit to Japan after proclaiming an independent japanan in the government center in the Tokyo settlement. Of course such visits immediatley after a violent rebellion are unheard of in our history. But anyway, lleouch thus desperately needed to have Clovis, Cornelia, and above all Euphemia alive for the Emperor to feel safe in visiting Japan. So he could have arranged for Zero to "die" and be replaced by a "new" masked leader of the Black Knights, or used one of the Kyoto gourup as a figurehead leader of the rebellion and keep Zero in the background to reduce the bad effects of Zero killing Clovis. But he didn't bother.

And lleouch needed to keep Cornelia and especially Euphemia alive for the Emperor to feel safe in visiting Japan. Lleouch should have know that Charles knew how kind and innocent Euphie was and would suspect the whole massacre story was a a Japanese lie and would believe that they had murdered an innocent girl. And anyone who could kill Euphie would be a million times more likely to kill Charles. So lleouch desperately needed to keep Euphemia alive for his pan to lure the Emperor to Japan have any chance of working.

And of course Euphemia would make a great hostage to use on suzaku or Cornelia. But lleouch murdered her anyway.

And after hearing of Euphemia's death Nina tired to make and use a F.R.E.I.J.A. weapon, and as a reult joined the team working on them and helped them develop them a a little earlier, in time to be used during the wars and kill millions in the destruction of cities like Tokyo and Pendraon..

Yes, i would say that Euphie's survival, not her death, was necessary for the greater good.

And what do you mean about Lleouch caring about what was good for Nunnally and for Japan. Lelouch only pretended to himself that his revenge was also in part for the good of Nunnally and Japan.
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Posted 6/14/09

infinitycubed wrote:


sakura49 wrote:

i think the most necessary death was euphemia, even though i hated that she died; her death brought zero closer to the japanese, all of them thought she was a "murderous bitch" and started to resist the britania; as a result lelouch gains lot of supporters, even though it was his own doing the japanese never knew.

the least necessary death was shirley, her death did not serve a purpose other than making lelouch decided to kill his father and himself and other geass users...damn rolo.


I say the least necessary death was Euphemia's, because it was necessary for her to live for me to have any interest in the rest of the story. I hear that Lelouch, Kalllen and CC are not tortured to death in the second season for killing Euphemia, nor Charles and VV for just letting them do so without intervening to save her, so there is nothing that I want to see in the second season.

Of all the characters in Code Geass, only Euphemia, Shirley, Milly and Rivalez never did anything evil as far as I know. And they suffered a fifty percent fatality rate while the evil characters, just about everyone else, got off with much lighter losses. And of all the political and military leaders and followers in Code Geass, only Euphemia was good and decent. Without her the show is just evil people fighting other evil people. It is as depressing as watching a documentary about the fight between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia in World War II.

Lelouch believed that Zero was already so popular with the Japanese that thousands would throw themselves on the Britannians in suicidal fury when he made Euphemia shoot him. So why would Lelouch/Zero need any more popularity with the Japanese? Was it even possible for anyone to be more popular than Lelouch believed that Zero already was? So I don't see Euphie's death being necessary for Zero's popularity in the second season.




>>i understand your point, to me princess euphie death was tragic, and she was an innocent in all of this...her intentions are good, but life goes on and those who committed crimes against others will either repent or have their comeuppance...lelouch, kallen and cc are not directly responsible for euphie death, true lelouch killed her but i think she would've prefer it then live knowing the atrocity she has committed because of geass...charles and vv are more of a criminal then lelouch, i don't like them for a lot of reason but mostly because they did not care one way or another over the death of a single girl.

>>in this show lots of people committed horrible crimes, but later on they kind of redeem themselves, and that's why i like this show because it does not show black or white, people are not clearly define, they've shades of gray, they're not totally evil, they've their own reasons.

>>before princess euphie massacred the japanese, a lot of these people were afraid of brittanians...that's why they readily agree to the proposal that princess euphie suggested, but after they witnessed euphie murdered their own people, they stood up to the brittanian government and start a riot, that's the turning point for lelouch's rebellion when he got the people support completely...and what happened to euphie is not entirely lelouch fault, he accidently geassed her, and in order to advance his plan he used the massacre to give him more power in order to be on an even footing with brittania, his power in season 2 is so much more than he has before euphie action.
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Posted 6/14/09 , edited 6/14/09

infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....


beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.









You know what infinitycubed?
I really admire your sense of reasoning....
But because of it.... it seems that everything I said was wrong....

You said, " I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?"


During those episodes, Zero was just an emerging figure as Japanese Hero.
Do you remember Rakshata? She said something when Euphemia proclaimed the establishment of SAZ, she said (I don't exactly remember the words) "between a beloved princess and a masked rebel whose identity was known by no one, which would the people choose? tha masked man would definitely loose "
Aside from that, SAZ would definitely become a sucess because of the presence of Suzaku.

I also see the possibility that when, Zero was shot, the Japanese will go Crazy, but without Zero, will they win?


"Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch."
During the first episodes, when lelouch was trying to figure out the specs of his geass, he said to cc that not remebering the events before,during and aafter is part of his geass effect. take a look on the episode when he used geass on villetta or the others.


And regarding on the thing you said about blackmailing the emperor on going to area 11, as I have said, it is useless, why would he have to save Euphie's life if in the world he is creating, Euphie will be alive? Besides Cornelia ha no power over him or the emperor himself can persuade her into helping hin in his goal....

And another thing, there's no way the doctors would be able to hide Euphie's life in fooling Suzaku, because she died right in front of him.... And there's also no way that she would get to coma, because she was shot directly on the heart.

Oh and another thing, do you know the expression, "you cannot serve two gods at a time"?
that's why, Euphie should die because if she live then, Zero will be a subordinate which he hated the most, and if it will be Euphie to give way, the Britannia won't agree on it. Therefore, they could not work together. And, Lelouch and Nunnaly are royalties thrown away by the emperor, so there's no way of accepting them.


I can see your point, a thousand possibilities of what could've happened if Euphie didn't die, but can you think of a dramatic, regretful and hateful idea that could drive the characters as well as the viewers crazy, Better than this?
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Every death was needed, it gave Lelouch motive... ect....
Understand? You can not really say one was more needed than others.
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infinitycubed wrote:


alive86 wrote:

I don't think there was any unnecessary deaths, only in the way that they were executed. I believe and took Lelouch's side in that almost all of the royal family must be eliminated otherwise Brittania's rule would never end. I agree that Euphy's end was a tad cruel, but necessary for the greater good, that also applies to the innocent children of geass that were massacred. Euphy's actions were selfish along with many others, but Lelouch was always acting for Japan and Nunnally in the end. So he had to take a "path of evil" if he hadn't the oppression of mankind would have continued. Lelouch realized full well the consequences of his actions and took the responsibility in the end.


I say that Lelouch took the wrong side, and that he shouldn't have cared about a little thing like Britannian oppression, Instead he should have helped Britannia conquer, unite,and pacify the world. War is a much greater evil than oppression.

Besides, if Britannia conquered the world the best efforts of Britannian bigots would not prevent the eventual assimilation of the Britannians and the Numbers into one equal people. It would have taken just two or three centuries. It took just two or three centuries to turn Gauls and Spaniards, Africans and Egyptians, Syrians and Greeks into Romans, and Romans into all the people of the Roman Empire. And it took just a few centuries for all the tribes and nations that were conquered by the Japanese expanding from the heartland of Yamato to forget their initial oppression by the Japanese and hatred for the Japanese and become just as Japanese as the original Japanese.

If Britannia conquered all the world there wouldn't be any foreign governments to supply weapons and money to rebel groups (I suspect that the Kyoto group got most of its money from foreign government like the Chinese Federation and the Euro Universe seeking to undermine Britannia). With foreign aid most rebellions and revolutions fail; without out foreign aid almost all rebellions fail. Thus once the world is united it will be almost totally impossible to overthrow the world government. The peace could last for many thousands of years. Tens of thousands of years, hundreds of thousands of years, millions of years, tens of millions of years.

In the second season Britannia inflicted a heavy defeat on the Euro Universe and negotiated a royal marriage between the crown prince and the Chinese Empress. Thus two thirds of mankind would be peacefully united by a marriage. Then the other nations would have to negotiate with Britannia-Chine to become protected allies or client states or something to avoid being conquered and turned into Areas. but Lelouch and the Black knights broke up the Britannian-Chinese marriage and fought against Britannia to stop its conquest of the world.

After the exhaustion of all the recent wars, and the relief of the Zero Requiem, wears off the world will go back to war at the usual rate of death and destruction. The united Federation of Nations might be stronger than the League of nations or the United Nations of our
world but it will still be too weak to keep the peace.

If ten thousand to one million people are killed in wars in an average year, than ten million to one billion people will be killed every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion will be killed every million years, As a result of Lelouch fighting against the lesser evil of Britannian oppression instead of the greater evil of the existence of independent nations which makes war possible.

You say that Euphie's death was a tad cruel but necessary for the greater good, as was that of the innocent children killed in the Geass Directorate Massacre.

I say that Euphemia's murder was one of the worst that I ever saw on television, and that her survival was necessary for the greater good.

Lelouch clearly had many chances to capture Euphemia alive. Then she could have been confined with very little chance of escaping and killing other Japanese. She would not have been any more dangerous than any Britannian soldier who was free and might be ordered to carryout a massacre in the future.

Of course it is possible that her geass command might have worn off and ran out of energy after an unknown period of years.

If Euphemia was alive her guardians could have negotiated for the use of the geass canceler on her when it was introduced the next year.

If lleouch cared enough to ask CC for other options, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth of her age, she could have told Lleouch that VV could undo the geass command (and who know how many other ways of curing Euphemia CC might have known about). So curing Euphemia was not a scientific problem but a simple matter of negotiation. Most immortals like VV probably have a poverty phobia and will do anything easy for money they can invest for hundreds of years in one of their secret eternal retirement funds. ( At ten percent compound annual growth an investment will become a trillion times as much in less than three hundred years).

But Euphemia seemed to be breaking free of her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch. Just seconds before it could make her try to kill despite her intense hatred of violence. Now the geass could not overcome her much weaker desire to talk with someone familiar. With new Japanese babies being born every minute Euphemia had no time to waste, but she made no effort to kill Japanese after she apologized to Lelouch for shooting at his nightmare.

Lelouch saw Euphemia's superhuman reluctance to kill when she resisted the geass command at first and he saw her freeing herself from the geass command as she talked to him. And he took advantage of her trust in him to murder her in safety anyway.

Lelouch panned to lured Emperor Charles into a state visit to Japan after proclaiming an independent japanan in the government center in the Tokyo settlement. Of course such visits immediatley after a violent rebellion are unheard of in our history. But anyway, lleouch thus desperately needed to have Clovis, Cornelia, and above all Euphemia alive for the Emperor to feel safe in visiting Japan. So he could have arranged for Zero to "die" and be replaced by a "new" masked leader of the Black Knights, or used one of the Kyoto gourup as a figurehead leader of the rebellion and keep Zero in the background to reduce the bad effects of Zero killing Clovis. But he didn't bother.

And lleouch needed to keep Cornelia and especially Euphemia alive for the Emperor to feel safe in visiting Japan. Lleouch should have know that Charles knew how kind and innocent Euphie was and would suspect the whole massacre story was a a Japanese lie and would believe that they had murdered an innocent girl. And anyone who could kill Euphie would be a million times more likely to kill Charles. So lleouch desperately needed to keep Euphemia alive for his pan to lure the Emperor to Japan have any chance of working.

And of course Euphemia would make a great hostage to use on suzaku or Cornelia. But lleouch murdered her anyway.

And after hearing of Euphemia's death Nina tired to make and use a F.R.E.I.J.A. weapon, and as a reult joined the team working on them and helped them develop them a a little earlier, in time to be used during the wars and kill millions in the destruction of cities like Tokyo and Pendraon..

Yes, i would say that Euphie's survival, not her death, was necessary for the greater good.

And what do you mean about Lleouch caring about what was good for Nunnally and for Japan. Lelouch only pretended to himself that his revenge was also in part for the good of Nunnally and Japan.


my simple response to this is oppression is not acceptable in my books in any form. Also as long as people are oppressed, people will rebel.

How would you like it if I came and stripped away all your rights and treated you like a dog?

Also this peace you speak of isn't true peace, its the exact reason for rebelling. Forced peace is the exact same thing as being oppressed. I believe in a world of freedom.

Everything Lelouch did was for Nunally, good or bad, but like stated before there is no good or bad in this series, Lelouch is using evil to fight evil. Also Lelouch's revenge wasn't for the good of Japan, it was for himself, for the murder of his mother. Lelouch had two paths to choose from the path of revenge or the path for japan, he chose to follow the path of blood and accept the consequences of his actions.
You are also missing the point in that this anime is about the BAD guy and have you not watched the whole series? (Both 1 and 2), You seem to be missing alot of information on Geass and its true nature. Geass is the power of the King, it's users pre-chosen, its commands absolute. Do you also not know V.V's intentions? V.V and Charle's agreement was to rid the world of lies and bring the destruction of God. V.V and Charle's cultivated Geass to help further them in world domination. Should I even bother mentioning the Ragnarok Connection and the Sword of Akasha?

You make some very good points, but the whole point of this series is about a byronic hero following his path to ultimately rid the world of evil.

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alive86 wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


alive86 wrote:

I don't think there was any unnecessary deaths, only in the way that they were executed. I believe and took Lelouch's side in that almost all of the royal family must be eliminated otherwise Brittania's rule would never end. I agree that Euphy's end was a tad cruel, but necessary for the greater good, that also applies to the innocent children of geass that were massacred. Euphy's actions were selfish along with many others, but Lelouch was always acting for Japan and Nunnally in the end. So he had to take a "path of evil" if he hadn't the oppression of mankind would have continued. Lelouch realized full well the consequences of his actions and took the responsibility in the end.


I say that Lelouch took the wrong side, and that he shouldn't have cared about a little thing like Britannian oppression, Instead he should have helped Britannia conquer, unite,and pacify the world. War is a much greater evil than oppression.

Besides, if Britannia conquered the world the best efforts of Britannian bigots would not prevent the eventual assimilation of the Britannians and the Numbers into one equal people. It would have taken just two or three centuries. It took just two or three centuries to turn Gauls and Spaniards, Africans and Egyptians, Syrians and Greeks into Romans, and Romans into all the people of the Roman Empire. And it took just a few centuries for all the tribes and nations that were conquered by the Japanese expanding from the heartland of Yamato to forget their initial oppression by the Japanese and hatred for the Japanese and become just as Japanese as the original Japanese.

If Britannia conquered all the world there wouldn't be any foreign governments to supply weapons and money to rebel groups (I suspect that the Kyoto group got most of its money from foreign government like the Chinese Federation and the Euro Universe seeking to undermine Britannia). With foreign aid most rebellions and revolutions fail; without out foreign aid almost all rebellions fail. Thus once the world is united it will be almost totally impossible to overthrow the world government. The peace could last for many thousands of years. Tens of thousands of years, hundreds of thousands of years, millions of years, tens of millions of years.

In the second season Britannia inflicted a heavy defeat on the Euro Universe and negotiated a royal marriage between the crown prince and the Chinese Empress. Thus two thirds of mankind would be peacefully united by a marriage. Then the other nations would have to negotiate with Britannia-China to become protected allies or client states or something to avoid being conquered and turned into Areas. but Lelouch and the Black knights broke up the Britannian-Chinese marriage and fought against Britannia to stop its conquest of the world.

After the exhaustion of all the recent wars, and the relief of the Zero Requiem, wears off the world will go back to war at the usual rate of death and destruction. The united Federation of Nations might be stronger than the League of nations or the United Nations of our
world but it will still be too weak to keep the peace.

If ten thousand to one million people are killed in wars in an average year, than ten million to one billion people will be killed every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion will be killed every million years, As a result of Lelouch fighting against the lesser evil of Britannian oppression instead of the greater evil of the existence of independent nations which makes war possible.

You say that Euphie's death was a tad cruel but necessary for the greater good, as was that of the innocent children killed in the Geass Directorate Massacre.

I say that Euphemia's murder was one of the worst that I ever saw on television, and that her survival was necessary for the greater good.

Lelouch clearly had many chances to capture Euphemia alive. Then she could have been confined with very little chance of escaping and killing other Japanese. She would not have been any more dangerous than any Britannian soldier who was free and might be ordered to carryout a massacre in the future.

Of course it is possible that her geass command might have worn off and ran out of energy after an unknown period of years.

If Euphemia was alive her guardians could have negotiated for the use of the geass canceler on her when it was introduced the next year.

If Lelouch cared enough to ask CC for other options, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth of her age, she could have told Lelouch that VV could undo the geass command (and who know how many other ways of curing Euphemia CC might have known about). So curing Euphemia was not a scientific problem but a simple matter of negotiation. Most immortals like VV probably have a poverty phobia and will do anything easy for money they can invest for hundreds of years in one of their secret eternal retirement funds. ( At ten percent compound annual growth an investment will become a trillion times as much in less than three hundred years).

But Euphemia seemed to be breaking free of her geass command while she was talking to Lelouch. Just seconds before it could make her try to kill despite her intense hatred of violence. Now the geass could not overcome her much weaker desire to talk with someone familiar. With new Japanese babies being born every minute Euphemia had no time to waste, but she made no effort to kill Japanese after she apologized to Lelouch for shooting at his nightmare.

Lelouch saw Euphemia's superhuman reluctance to kill when she resisted the geass command at first and he saw her freeing herself from the geass command as she talked to him. And he took advantage of her trust in him to murder her in safety anyway.

Lelouch planned to lured Emperor Charles into a state visit to Japan after proclaiming an independent japanan in the government center in the Tokyo settlement. Of course such visits immediately after a violent rebellion are unheard of in our history. But anyway, Llelouch thus desperately needed to have Clovis, Cornelia, and above all Euphemia alive for the Emperor to feel safe in visiting Japan. So he could have arranged for Zero to "die" and be replaced by a "new" masked leader of the Black Knights, or used one of the Kyoto group as a figurehead leader of the rebellion and keep Zero in the background to reduce the bad effects of Zero killing Clovis. But he didn't bother.

And lleouch needed to keep Cornelia and especially Euphemia alive for the Emperor to feel safe in visiting Japan. Lleouch should have know that Charles knew how kind and innocent Euphie was and would suspect the whole massacre story was a a Japanese lie and would believe that they had murdered an innocent girl. And anyone who could kill Euphie would be a million times more likely to kill Charles. So lleouch desperately needed to keep Euphemia alive for his plan to lure the Emperor to Japan have any chance of working.

And of course Euphemia would make a great hostage to use on Suzaku or Cornelia. But Lelouch murdered her anyway.

And after hearing of Euphemia's death Nina tired to make and use a F.R.E.I.J.A. weapon, and as a result joined the team working on them and helped them develop them a a little earlier, in time to be used during the wars and kill millions in the destruction of cities like Tokyo and Pendragon..

Yes, i would say that Euphie's survival, not her death, was necessary for the greater good.

And what do you mean about Lleouch caring about what was good for Nunnally and for Japan. Lelouch only pretended to himself that his revenge was also in part for the good of Nunnally and Japan.


my simple response to this is oppression is not acceptable in my books in any form. Also as long as people are oppressed, people will rebel.

How would you like it if I came and stripped away all your rights and treated you like a dog?

Also this peace you speak of isn't true peace, its the exact reason for rebelling. Forced peace is the exact same thing as being oppressed. I believe in a world of freedom.

Everything Lelouch did was for Nunally, good or bad, but like stated before there is no good or bad in this series, Lelouch is using evil to fight evil. Also Lelouch's revenge wasn't for the good of Japan, it was for himself, for the murder of his mother. Lelouch had two paths to choose from the path of revenge or the path for japan, he chose to follow the path of blood and accept the consequences of his actions.
You are also missing the point in that this anime is about the BAD guy and have you not watched the whole series? (Both 1 and 2), You seem to be missing alot of information on Geass and its true nature. Geass is the power of the King, it's users pre-chosen, its commands absolute. Do you also not know V.V's intentions? V.V and Charle's agreement was to rid the world of lies and bring the destruction of God. V.V and Charle's cultivated Geass to help further them in world domination. Should I even bother mentioning the Ragnarok Connection and the Sword of Akasha?

You make some very good points, but the whole point of this series is about a byronic hero following his path to ultimately rid the world of evil.



You say that oppression is not acceptable. I say that oppression will happen to some degree in the future and all you can hope to do is try to reduce it. For example, if you can end all wars forever you can end the oppression of the draft. If you can end all wars forever you can end the oppression of the higher ranks over the lower ranks. If you can end all wars forever you can end the oppression of the military over the helpless civilians of the enemy or their own people that is so often seen in war. If you end all war forever you will greatly reduce the frequency of murder, rape, enslaving, and looting. If you end war you will greatly reduce the often oppressive burden of taxation to pay for wars or to deter wars. And nothing is more oppressive than killing people against their will.

To end all forms of oppression you would have to abolish all forms of government and all other forms of social control which are sometimes used to create oppression. That would be almost impossible and some people would argue that the cure would be worse than the disease. After all, most people are not anarchists. And even if anarchy gave great freedom for a while, there would be nothing to stop some people from gradually acquiring influence and power over other people and establishing various forms of more or less oppressive social control. Who can tell for certain the difference between the amount of social influence that is acceptable in an anarchy and that which will slowly lead to the reestablishment of various forms of oppression?

But ending war is easier. War is made possible by the desire of people to belong to groups that oppose other groups and are smaller than the group of all the intelligent beings known to exist. And war is made possible by the existence of more than one sovereign, independent nation in the world. If you create a situation where there is only one sovereign, independent government in the world and all other governments are subordinate to it, and if people express their loyalty to their groups by supporting their group's sports teams, for example, there will be no more war, because war will be impossible.

You say that forced peace is not true peace and is oppression. I say better the oppression of of a forced peace than the oppression of war. I say that it would be better for Empire A to conquer the whole world and end the oppression of war for thousands or millions of years at the price of a lesser oppression and tyranny which will gradually fade away in a mere few centuries as all the subject peoples assimilate with the ruling people, than the oppression and tyranny of war for thousands and millions of years.

Remember that many of the victims of war are children who don't know what the war is about and in some cases are not even be old enough to know the names of their country and the enemy country. I say the worst form of oppression is when the adults of a country decide to fight an aggressive or defensive war without giving the children of their country a chance to give their informed consent. Of course the children cannot give their informed consent to war until they grow up, and by then there will be a new group of children too young to give their informed consent to the dangers of the war. As long as children continue to be born going to war for any reason is an act of oppression, and therefore tolerating the existence of sovereign, independent, nations is an act of terrible oppression.

I say that nobody has the right to the freedom to chose to live in a sovereign, independent, nation in world full of other sovereign, independent, nations, because choosing for sovereign, independent, nations to exist is a terrible act of oppression against all the future generations of children who will be born in the thousands or millions of years until the world is united. Because all innocent children must live, all nations must die. But since a nation is not a real living being but a simple one word description of the complex way that large numbers of people behave in certain situations, the "deaths" of all the nations that were, are, or will be, would be less tragic than the death of even a single innocent child, or even the death of single much less innocent adult.

And remember that so long as the ideology of a group of people united against all different groups is given the power of an independent national government, nobody will be safe from the possibility that his subgroup of the nationality will suddenly be defined by the majority as being not really part of that nationality and thus foreigners to be subjugated and oppressed or exiled or even exterminated. That was the fate of the Italian Jews when Mussolini decided for diplomatic reasons to ally with Nazi Germany and the Jews were denied Italian citizenship and rounded up to be sent to death camps. Such oppression will always happen so long as national governments exist based on the ideology of a small group of people with various things in common united against all outsiders. As the definition of what the group has in common slowly changes various subgroups will find themselves excluded from the definition of the nationality and oppressed. But in a empire based on the ideology that all peoples must obey the one imperial government people of all different groups will be considered to be suitable subjects of the Empire.

No, I haven't watched the whole series. After I saw Lelouch murder Euphemia I lost all interest. As you may have guessed, I consider the cause of the Britannian Empire to be far better than than that of any nation, thus all the Black Knights and patriots for Japan and other nations are evil in my book. But all the Britannians, except for Euphemia, were guilty of oppressing the Numbers too much and of accepting the brutal massacres by the Britannian army and are evil people fighting for a good cause. Only Euphemia was a good and noble leader who fought for a good cause with good methods. Without her the series becomes evil people fighting other evil people.

I say the only possible happy ending for Code Geass would be for Euphemia to come back to life. If that happened I wouldn't mind if all the other characters died though it would be just as good if the young girls Nunnally, Tiazni, and Kaguya were merely imprisoned for their crimes. So I say that the second season is non canonical, and nothing that happens in it matters. The world of Code Geass has lost is reason to exist without such a good and interesting character as Euphemia. It would have been much more interesting to watch Euphemia save the world, struggling with all her scruples, than to watch characters without enough or even any scruples mess things up.

You say that geass commands are absolute. I say that Euphemia resisted her geass command at first and very largely defeated her geass command when she was talking to Lelouch. If that means that Euphemia must be more than human, and that she might have been incarnated as a human to show humans how to be peaceful, so be it. And it may mean that her people exterminated the human race in ten, or a hundred, or a thousand times as many alternate universes as those in which they did not and the second season happened more or less the way it was shown. And if that was the case killing Euphemia was definitely not for the greater good.

And how was killing the children in the Geass Directorate for the greater good? No matter how much potential they might have had for opposing Lelouch's plans or opposing the greater good, which were not exactly the same thing, Lelouch could have simply commanded them all to obey all his orders. He could have gained many followers and avoided killing children.

You call Lelouch a byronic hero. I say that his unnecessary murder of Euphemia and his ordering the geass directorate massacre make him a villain. If you say that his actions fall within the limits of the definition of a byronic hero then I will say that there is no such thing as a a byronic hero, that the term byronic hero is an oxymoron, and that most byronic heroes are villains. And if I ever have a time machine perhaps I will add Lord Byron and the others who popularized the concept of a byronic hero to my long, long, list of historical characters to kill.

And Lelouch did not rid the world of evil. The most evil things in the world are nations. If Lelouch did not abolish all nations and create a world government then he created more evil than he rid the world of. I say the blood of countless millions and billions and trillions of people killed in future wars due to Lelouch calls out for his condemnation as a terrible villain.
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You make very good points, all are very well thought out and very true, but I am confused on what kind of overall point you are trying to make here. Both Brittania and Lelouch were after the same thing, the destruction of the world and creation of a new better world.

Have you considered that not everyone wants to assimilate? And where is humanity in that kind of "peaceful" world, where is individuality, where is diversity, where is the wide wonderful beautiful world we desire? Where is the peace and happiness for those who don't want to be Brittania or whatever? Peace is happiness. You think that these people should then suffer "for the greater good?" Thats not for the greater good at all. That is why people rebel against the empires, their selfishness, power and greed. For a peaceful world you need co-operation and understanding this is something that the U.N.F would achieve over time. A lot quicker than the Empires you speak of, instead of centuries of oppression and forced "peace" and assimilation, there would be maybe a decade of negotiations and real peace and freedom. A caged bird always tries to escape and once again feel the wind in their wings.

but after all this is said and done I must commend you, it is not very often that I find a discussion on a forum of such intellectual level. generally by now its just turned into a flame war.

Ah yes I can see why you would lose interest, and yes I agree with your first point about Euphy. However once again I say; this series is about evil vs evil and Lelouch as the byronic hero (and main character) is what drives the story, so of course people like Euphy who have no reason to die, are going to die.
As for Geass, Lelouch destroyed it so that its evil could no longer be used, and when I said absolute I meant that it bends the users will and ultimately they do as commanded, not that it won't eventually wear off. The reason Euphy could resist the geass was because she was pure and it was against her nature completely.
Finally how can you call a byronic hero an oxymoron? Its a literary term used to define a character, which Lady Byron referred to as "bad and dangerous to know." To be characterized as any type of hero you only have to show some of the traits. Further more the massacre of the children shows Lelouch's struggle of intregity, which is a trait of a byronic hero. Every death served its purpose in the development of the story.

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infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....


beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.









You know what infinitycubed?
I really admire your sense of reasoning....
But because of it.... it seems that everything I said was wrong....

You said, " I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?"


During those episodes, Zero was just an emerging figure as Japanese Hero.
Do you remember Rakshata? She said something when Euphemia proclaimed the establishment of SAZ, she said (I don't exactly remember the words) "between a beloved princess and a masked rebel whose identity was known by no one, which would the people choose? tha masked man would definitely loose "
Aside from that, SAZ would definitely become a sucess because of the presence of Suzaku.

I also see the possibility that when, Zero was shot, the Japanese will go Crazy, but without Zero, will they win?


"Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch."
During the first episodes, when lelouch was trying to figure out the specs of his geass, he said to cc that not remebering the events before,during and aafter is part of his geass effect. take a look on the episode when he used geass on villetta or the others.


And regarding on the thing you said about blackmailing the emperor on going to area 11, as I have said, it is useless, why would he have to save Euphie's life if in the world he is creating, Euphie will be alive? Besides Cornelia ha no power over him or the emperor himself can persuade her into helping hin in his goal....

And another thing, there's no way the doctors would be able to hide Euphie's life in fooling Suzaku, because she died right in front of him.... And there's also no way that she would get to coma, because she was shot directly on the heart.

Oh and another thing, do you know the expression, "you cannot serve two gods at a time"?
that's why, Euphie should die because if she live then, Zero will be a subordinate which he hated the most, and if it will be Euphie to give way, the Britannia won't agree on it. Therefore, they could not work together. And, Lelouch and Nunnaly are royalties thrown away by the emperor, so there's no way of accepting them.


I can see your point, a thousand possibilities of what could've happened if Euphie didn't die, but can you think of a dramatic, regretful and hateful idea that could drive the characters as well as the viewers crazy, Better than this?


Unless you think that Lelouch overestimated the regard that the Japanese people had for him, his belief that they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury means that Zero already had as much popularity as as necessary or perhaps even possible. Unless Lelouch did not believe that they would react with suicidal rage when he was shot. Perhaps he omitted for reasons of time to tell Euphie (and thus the audience) that his orders for her would also include making the soldiers attack the crowd. If the soldiers attacked the crowd and then chased them all though the town hunting them down they would be scattered when the Black Knights arrived and would be much easier to defeat. Of course that would mean that Lelouch was deliberately planning to cause something very similar to the Fuji massacre which actually happened.

If you don't want to believe that Lelouch was that evil you must believe that he believed -- probably accurately -- that he already had all the popularity he could need. And it is true that for a while Euphemia had even more popularity with the Japanese, but once Zero made her shoot him, or once he accidentally made her order a massacre her popularity would vanish and once again Zero would be the only hope of the Japanese.

By the way, if Rakshatta said that Euphie was a beloved princess, did she mean beloved by the Japanese? If so, how did she become beloved by the Japanese? Being beloved by the Japanese would seem to be implied by the statement that she would be trusted more than Zero. Or was Euphemia already beloved by almost everyone in the world before she came to Japan, perhaps due to her leading Brittannian relief efforts at various natural disasters (since she was the only Britannian leader who cared if millions died in the aftermath of natural disasters, no doubt)? That statement certainly gives a lot to speculate about.

I say that Zero was probably at his peak as a Japanese hero during those episodes. After all, his bloody Black Rebellion failed, and some may have heard rumors that it was his fault. Then, in the second season his invasion to liberate Japan was stopped at the Second Decisive Battle of Toyko when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used and millions died. After that, I suspect that millions of Japanese came to believe that with friends like Zero, who needed enemies.

You ask if the Japanese went crazy when Zero was shot, would they win? Lelouch also told Euphemia that when the Japanese people saw him miracously revive they would know that he and not Euphemia was their true messiah. So Llelouch planned to be unconscious and seemingly dead for some period of time after Euphemia shot him and then revive and take control of the rebellion. And just exactly how Leoluch planned to do that is a subject of much speculation.

I'm certain that Lelouch did not mean to say that while someone one was controlled by a geass he would forget things that he did earlier while controlled by the geass. If a doctor was ordered to operate on and save the life of someone who he wouldn't have saved without a geass command, it would be disastrous if halfway through the operation he forgot some of the steps he had already taken. Or an engineer geassed to make complex and sophisticated adjustments to some major piece of equipment. It would be very inefficient for Euphemia to order a massacre, forget about it, then order a massacre for the second time, forget about it, order a massacre for the third time, and so on. So the fact that Euphie forgot that she ordered a massacre indicates they she very probably was totally or almost totally out of the control of the geass.

I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. I said that if Euphemia was alive, whether as prisoner in Japan or already released, it would be very unlikely for the Emperor to come to Japan since he was hated thousands of times as much as Euphie was and even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And If Euphie had been killed in the revolt the Emperor would have been thousands of times less likely to do anything as foolish as coming to Japan. A live Euphemia was absolutely necessary for Lelouch's plan to have even a tiny chance of success.

I think that doctors could fake Euphie's death in front of Suzaku by giving her a drug that made her appear dead. And perhaps that was why they dragged him away as soon as she appeared to die, to keep him from examining her closely. I hope so. But that was not what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting that Lelouch's bullet would not kill her but put her in a coma, and that would give Suzaku almost as much reason to want revenge on Lelouch And Lelouch almost as much reason to ponder whether he wanted to oppose Nunnlly as he did Euphemia. Euphie was probably not shot in the heart, since her abdomen was covered with blood but her chest had no blood on it. Being shot in the head is not necessary to cause a coma. Patients who are operated on for various reasons and given anesthesia sometimes go into comas.

And I also suggested an alternate scenario in which Lelouch would capture her, not shoot her, and she would survive the Black Rebellion and its defeat, which otherwise would be the same as in the aired episodes. Then a few months later Euphie would be attacked by vengeful Japanese assassins. And nine months later when Lelouch was deciding what course to take, there would be reports that Euphie was still in a coma from the assassination attempt.

I believe the expression is that you cannot serve two masters. Anyway polytheists can serve many gods at the same time. And again a Code geass fan makes unwarranted assumptions such as Euphemia's survival is the same thing as as the SAZ plan going into effect. Even if the SAZ plan was ruined and the massacre started Euphie could survive if LeLouch decided not to kill her or Suzaku rescued her in the nick of time, etc. etc. After agreeing to the SAZ plan Lelouch said he would not serve under Euphemia (did she boss him around when they were children? who knows?). They didn't even get around to discussing important points such as whether Lelouch and the Black Knights would continue to revolt in other regions of Japan until all of Japan was made part of the SAZ.

I say it was a bad idea to kill Euphemia for its effect on the other characters, since Euphemia was better than all the other characters combined and without her the show is just evil people fighting each other.

NO I can't think of anything that would drive the views crazy more than that, It certainly has been driving me crazy for the last eight months since i saw episode 23. I think that episodes 22 and 23 are possibly the most evil tv episodes ever. Killing Euphemia has pretty much killed my interest in anime. I don't think that i will ever watch a new anime series again until there is a new Code Geass in which Euphemia comes back to life.

Posted 6/18/09
On the contrary, I would say that Mr. Fenette's death (not sure if I spelled that right) was crucial in Shirley's development. If he hadn't died, Shirley would not have come to hate Zero, and she wouldn't have pursued his identity (eventually leading to her discovery of Lelouch's secret).

Euphemia's death was tragic and a terrible mistake on Lelouch's part. I do agree that it played a vital role in Lelouch's development and that it was necessary.

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Posted 6/18/09
As far as Season 1 goes,

Euphie or Euphemia de Britannia should not have been killed. I was enjoying the anime, Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion, even after Clovis's untimely death -- though it was explained that he instructed mass genocide of the Japanese people (obviously since he was a Prince of the Britannia Empire). But I digress, I continued watching it.. until on the "drop of a pin", a random act, the failure of being able to predict when the Geass would turn beyond Lelouch's control (after learning of its full power from Mao),

Lelouch said something that was meant to be a play of words, a joke to Euphie after agreeing to be her companion in order to create a new and independent Japan:

"Even if I were to order you to kill all Japanese, you would do it" (something along those lines)

And all of a sudden, his Geass, right at that vital moment goes haywire?

The plot was going good! or at least moderately interesting enough for me to continue watching it but to have the entire scene of events change on ... a mistake, what's more, playful bantor of Lelouch (cause we all know how playful he can be with words) with Euphie, right after shaking hands with her. I can't fathom why they, as in the creators, suddenly wanted the Geass to go hectic at that moment and have Euphie do such a thing. Lelouch, even forgave her after realizing that Euphie gave up her royal throne for the common goals and freedom of the people of Japan.

And that was what started all of the chaos, the mayhem.... brought on after. Regrettable, I am as a viewer and despise, more.. I do of the Geass. That is not just a tool to bring peace, no, (more like destruction...) but I'm sure there are subliminal messages and other morals that the creators have planned to have the audience ponder upon.

Although, I did not expect the Geass to activate at that moment on Episode 23 of Season 1, I see that the genius-level Lelouch did not see that coming either. The power to create a dream also has the power to shatter .. all others that exist as well. I know Lelouch regretted killing Euphie and ever attaining the power of the Geass after doing so, ... but this is his fate and he must see it through.

I also need to see this anime through to the second season so I can try, at least try to grasp what the hell the Geass is exactly because THAT is the PROBLEM, right now, besides many other things like the whole world being in disarray.

Ahh... damn it. I hope they explain why exactly the Geass activated at such a terrible time like in Episode 23 of Season 1 ... to have Euphie commit genocide.

And .. they should've had the era's greatest surgeon, Black Jack on the Avalon ... so he could've been able to make arrangements in order to save Euphie.
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