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Post Reply Who's Death was the Most Necessary and Least Necessary?
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Posted 6/18/09 , edited 6/18/09
Marianne's death was the most necessary (she did die right o.O? idk) . Think about it, if Lelouch's mother never died(or if lelouch never thought she died) he probably would've never decided to take down Britannia. This is debateable of course, but this is just my opinion. Basically the whole first season is him trying to find out who killed his mother, with the help of the Black knights. In the end he abandoned the Black Knights anyways, so I would say his ultimate goal was to bring peace to Area 11, not just save Japan, but Britannia too. Marianne's death = Liberated Area 11.

All hail Lelouch!

Least..? I would say.. Shirley. It was just totally uncalled for. I think most of the girls who've watched this show wanted Lelouch to be paired with someone! XD Shirley was the best candidate since dating comrades is a no-no! Sorry Kallen :D. Euphemia was necessary to me (even though her death was a mistake).. I don't think the goal could be achieved if members of the royal family were alive.
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Posted 6/19/09

infinitycubed wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....


beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.









You know what infinitycubed?
I really admire your sense of reasoning....
But because of it.... it seems that everything I said was wrong....

You said, " I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?"


During those episodes, Zero was just an emerging figure as Japanese Hero.
Do you remember Rakshata? She said something when Euphemia proclaimed the establishment of SAZ, she said (I don't exactly remember the words) "between a beloved princess and a masked rebel whose identity was known by no one, which would the people choose? tha masked man would definitely loose "
Aside from that, SAZ would definitely become a sucess because of the presence of Suzaku.

I also see the possibility that when, Zero was shot, the Japanese will go Crazy, but without Zero, will they win?


"Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch."
During the first episodes, when lelouch was trying to figure out the specs of his geass, he said to cc that not remebering the events before,during and aafter is part of his geass effect. take a look on the episode when he used geass on villetta or the others.


And regarding on the thing you said about blackmailing the emperor on going to area 11, as I have said, it is useless, why would he have to save Euphie's life if in the world he is creating, Euphie will be alive? Besides Cornelia ha no power over him or the emperor himself can persuade her into helping hin in his goal....

And another thing, there's no way the doctors would be able to hide Euphie's life in fooling Suzaku, because she died right in front of him.... And there's also no way that she would get to coma, because she was shot directly on the heart.

Oh and another thing, do you know the expression, "you cannot serve two gods at a time"?
that's why, Euphie should die because if she live then, Zero will be a subordinate which he hated the most, and if it will be Euphie to give way, the Britannia won't agree on it. Therefore, they could not work together. And, Lelouch and Nunnaly are royalties thrown away by the emperor, so there's no way of accepting them.


I can see your point, a thousand possibilities of what could've happened if Euphie didn't die, but can you think of a dramatic, regretful and hateful idea that could drive the characters as well as the viewers crazy, Better than this?


Unless you think that Lelouch overestimated the regard that the Japanese people had for him, his belief that they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury means that Zero already had as much popularity as as necessary or perhaps even possible. Unless Lelouch did not believe that they would react with suicidal rage when he was shot. Perhaps he omitted for reasons of time to tell Euphie (and thus the audience) that his orders for her would also include making the soldiers attack the crowd. If the soldiers attacked the crowd and then chased them all though the town hunting them down they would be scattered when the Black Knights arrived and would be much easier to defeat. Of course that would mean that Lelouch was deliberately planning to cause something very similar to the Fuji massacre which actually happened.

If you don't want to believe that Lelouch was that evil you must believe that he believed -- probably accurately -- that he already had all the popularity he could need. And it is true that for a while Euphemia had even more popularity with the Japanese, but once Zero made her shoot him, or once he accidentally made her order a massacre her popularity would vanish and once again Zero would be the only hope of the Japanese.

By the way, if Rakshatta said that Euphie was a beloved princess, did she mean beloved by the Japanese? If so, how did she become beloved by the Japanese? Being beloved by the Japanese would seem to be implied by the statement that she would be trusted more than Zero. Or was Euphemia already beloved by almost everyone in the world before she came to Japan, perhaps due to her leading Brittannian relief efforts at various natural disasters (since she was the only Britannian leader who cared if millions died in the aftermath of natural disasters, no doubt)? That statement certainly gives a lot to speculate about.

I say that Zero was probably at his peak as a Japanese hero during those episodes. After all, his bloody Black Rebellion failed, and some may have heard rumors that it was his fault. Then, in the second season his invasion to liberate Japan was stopped at the Second Decisive Battle of Toyko when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used and millions died. After that, I suspect that millions of Japanese came to believe that with friends like Zero, who needed enemies.

You ask if the Japanese went crazy when Zero was shot, would they win? Lelouch also told Euphemia that when the Japanese people saw him miracously revive they would know that he and not Euphemia was their true messiah. So Llelouch planned to be unconscious and seemingly dead for some period of time after Euphemia shot him and then revive and take control of the rebellion. And just exactly how Leoluch planned to do that is a subject of much speculation.

I'm certain that Lelouch did not mean to say that while someone one was controlled by a geass he would forget things that he did earlier while controlled by the geass. If a doctor was ordered to operate on and save the life of someone who he wouldn't have saved without a geass command, it would be disastrous if halfway through the operation he forgot some of the steps he had already taken. Or an engineer geassed to make complex and sophisticated adjustments to some major piece of equipment. It would be very inefficient for Euphemia to order a massacre, forget about it, then order a massacre for the second time, forget about it, order a massacre for the third time, and so on. So the fact that Euphie forgot that she ordered a massacre indicates they she very probably was totally or almost totally out of the control of the geass.

I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. I said that if Euphemia was alive, whether as prisoner in Japan or already released, it would be very unlikely for the Emperor to come to Japan since he was hated thousands of times as much as Euphie was and even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And If Euphie had been killed in the revolt the Emperor would have been thousands of times less likely to do anything as foolish as coming to Japan. A live Euphemia was absolutely necessary for Lelouch's plan to have even a tiny chance of success.

I think that doctors could fake Euphie's death in front of Suzaku by giving her a drug that made her appear dead. And perhaps that was why they dragged him away as soon as she appeared to die, to keep him from examining her closely. I hope so. But that was not what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting that Lelouch's bullet would not kill her but put her in a coma, and that would give Suzaku almost as much reason to want revenge on Lelouch And Lelouch almost as much reason to ponder whether he wanted to oppose Nunnlly as he did Euphemia. Euphie was probably not shot in the heart, since her abdomen was covered with blood but her chest had no blood on it. Being shot in the head is not necessary to cause a coma. Patients who are operated on for various reasons and given anesthesia sometimes go into comas.

And I also suggested an alternate scenario in which Lelouch would capture her, not shoot her, and she would survive the Black Rebellion and its defeat, which otherwise would be the same as in the aired episodes. Then a few months later Euphie would be attacked by vengeful Japanese assassins. And nine months later when Lelouch was deciding what course to take, there would be reports that Euphie was still in a coma from the assassination attempt.

I believe the expression is that you cannot serve two masters. Anyway polytheists can serve many gods at the same time. And again a Code geass fan makes unwarranted assumptions such as Euphemia's survival is the same thing as as the SAZ plan going into effect. Even if the SAZ plan was ruined and the massacre started Euphie could survive if LeLouch decided not to kill her or Suzaku rescued her in the nick of time, etc. etc. After agreeing to the SAZ plan Lelouch said he would not serve under Euphemia (did she boss him around when they were children? who knows?). They didn't even get around to discussing important points such as whether Lelouch and the Black Knights would continue to revolt in other regions of Japan until all of Japan was made part of the SAZ.

I say it was a bad idea to kill Euphemia for its effect on the other characters, since Euphemia was better than all the other characters combined and without her the show is just evil people fighting each other.

NO I can't think of anything that would drive the views crazy more than that, It certainly has been driving me crazy for the last eight months since i saw episode 23. I think that episodes 22 and 23 are possibly the most evil tv episodes ever. Killing Euphemia has pretty much killed my interest in anime. I don't think that i will ever watch a new anime series again until there is a new Code Geass in which Euphemia comes back to life.








I do believe that lelouch is also evil. Why? Simply because he did evil things..... But you know, being the main character, it made him much preferable to the audience. But in fairness to him, he made the world peaceful after all.

On Rakshatta, i said that i don't completely remember the words, however, it may or may not be implied. Let me ask you something, if you were in the feet of the Japanese...... Would you choose An unknown man over a well known princess who has your late prime minister's son with her. I'm pretty sure that you would choose the latter. The answer is obvious (re-watch ep. 22 and you'll get my point). And I guess that would settle your argument on your 2nd paragraph.

It is true that Lelouch planned to pretend dead, to trigger the japanese into a great rebellion, unfortunately it happened the other way. The massacre did. But even so, it happened the same way as he planned. he gained the complete power over the japanese as he proclaim himself as the savior. If you are saying that zero's popularity is at it's peak, I must disagree. It's true that the japanese will throw themslves in suicidal fury when he was shot, not because he is popular but because it would only show how cruel the britannians are. That they cannot be trusted. Zero's popularity peak was after he killed Euphie.

About the geass's specs. Please do re-watch the episodes of the season 1 and you'll get my point. Especially when he used it on Vilhetta. And as far as i could remember, there was this episode when Jerimiah and Vilhetta were talking about it. Watch those and see for yourself. We will not have to argue on this matter anymore.

"I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. "
What about this?
And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.


Isn't that what you mean when you typed it?

And why would the doctors fake Euphemia's death in front of Suzaku? It's very illogical, Schneizer and even Cornelia have no contact with her during those times. Don't tell me that the doctors will decide for it themselves? Besides, Euphie don't have to die in order to freak Suzaku out, the fact that Zero hurt her or shot her was enough reason for him to go after Zero.

And another thing, after the massacre, Euphie's name marked in a very wrong way. If you were lelouch, would you like your first love to live a life, with everyone angry on her knowing that she killed a lot of people? With Euphie's character, would she stand that?

Let's go to the polytheist, do you think that their way of serving gods is applicable to the scenario? I already said the reason why they cannot work together, just dig it.

They may all appear evil but they all share good goals.

As for Euphie's death, it drove me crazy too...... In fact, I like her character. No wonder I chose her death as the most necessary. But it is, indeed.
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sakura49 wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


sakura49 wrote:

i think the most necessary death was euphemia, even though i hated that she died; her death brought zero closer to the japanese, all of them thought she was a "murderous bitch" and started to resist the britania; as a result lelouch gains lot of supporters, even though it was his own doing the japanese never knew.

the least necessary death was shirley, her death did not serve a purpose other than making lelouch decided to kill his father and himself and other geass users...damn rolo.


I say the least necessary death was Euphemia's, because it was necessary for her to live for me to have any interest in the rest of the story. I hear that Lelouch, Kalllen and CC are not tortured to death in the second season for killing Euphemia, nor Charles and VV for just letting them do so without intervening to save her, so there is nothing that I want to see in the second season.

Of all the characters in Code Geass, only Euphemia, Shirley, Milly and Rivalez never did anything evil as far as I know. And they suffered a fifty percent fatality rate while the evil characters, just about everyone else, got off with much lighter losses. And of all the political and military leaders and followers in Code Geass, only Euphemia was good and decent. Without her the show is just evil people fighting other evil people. It is as depressing as watching a documentary about the fight between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia in World War II.

Lelouch believed that Zero was already so popular with the Japanese that thousands would throw themselves on the Britannians in suicidal fury when he made Euphemia shoot him. So why would Lelouch/Zero need any more popularity with the Japanese? Was it even possible for anyone to be more popular than Lelouch believed that Zero already was? So I don't see Euphie's death being necessary for Zero's popularity in the second season.




>>i understand your point, to me princess euphie death was tragic, and she was an innocent in all of this...her intentions are good, but life goes on and those who committed crimes against others will either repent or have their comeuppance...lelouch, kallen and cc are not directly responsible for euphie death, true lelouch killed her but i think she would've prefer it then live knowing the atrocity she has committed because of geass...charles and vv are more of a criminal then lelouch, i don't like them for a lot of reason but mostly because they did not care one way or another over the death of a single girl.

>>in this show lots of people committed horrible crimes, but later on they kind of redeem themselves, and that's why i like this show because it does not show black or white, people are not clearly define, they've shades of gray, they're not totally evil, they've their own reasons.

>>before princess euphie massacred the japanese, a lot of these people were afraid of brittanians...that's why they readily agree to the proposal that princess euphie suggested, but after they witnessed euphie murdered their own people, they stood up to the brittanian government and start a riot, that's the turning point for lelouch's rebellion when he got the people support completely...and what happened to euphie is not entirely lelouch fault, he accidently geassed her, and in order to advance his plan he used the massacre to give him more power in order to be on an even footing with brittania, his power in season 2 is so much more than he has before euphie action.


Lelouch, CC, and Kallen are directly responsible for Euphemia's death, they are the team that killed her. Charles and VV just set the scene and let the actors decide what good or evil they would do. And I included them among the people that would be most likely to be executed for Euphemia's death in one of my posts. But Lelouch, CC, and Kallen are much more directly responsible for her death.

Lelouch ordered the Black Knights to kill her. If he had wanted her to survive his plan to make her shoot him he would have thought of a way to protect her. And he could have modified that way to protect her in the somewhat different circumstances of the massacre. But he didn't, so he probably came to the meeting with her expecting to kill her. And even though Euphie's massacre may have been a more important factor in Lleouch's position in the second season than I believe, Lelouch gained his increased popularity, if any, by rescuing the surviving Japanese and defeating and killing most of the Britannians at Fuji, and then leading the capture of the Tokyo settlement. Killing Euphemia was just the icing on the cake of his popularity.

I believe that Leleouch may have planned to give Euphemia additional orders to do after she shot him, so she didn't come out of her geass trance and do something to calm down the situation. He probably intended to order her to gather a bunch of Japanese prisoners near the stage to witness his miraclous resurrection, and to slaughter thousands of Japanese in the stadium and then have her men scatter thoughout the SAZ to hunt down those who fled, making the brittannians disperse and be easy targets for the Black Knights when they arrived.

And he probably ordered Euphie to shoot at him (but be sure to miss) when he rose from the "dead" and maybe shoot at the Japanese witnesses. And he may have attached cameras to the Gawain to record him shooting Euphemia as she shot at him and/or the Japanese prisoners, to use as Black knight propaganda.

When Euphemia picked up a machine gun from the ground she shot at the nightmares in front of her, despite the fact that they were armored and she would have little chance of harming their occupants. That just about proves that there were no living Japanese persons in sight in front of her and behind the nightmares, or the geass would have made her shoot at them. And when Lleouch got out of his nightmare he walked up to Euphie and past her and way from her, She turned around to look at him before he turned and shot her. Why did Lelouch walk past Euphie?

Maybe Lelouch saw living Japanese behind Euphie and walked past her to make her turn around and see them and shoot at them, so he could look good shooting her. If there were cameras on the Gawain the Japanese people might have been in sight of the cameras, making it look like Zero shot Euphie to protect the Japanese people. Or they might have been out of sight of the cameras and it would look like Zero shot Euphie after she shot at him. If Lelouch was planning that, he must have been disappointed, because Euphie didn't shoot and i didn't even hear sounds like she was trying but failing to get the machine gun to fire. Either there were no Japanese in sight or Euphie's superhuman goodness had enabled her to defeat the geass enough that it couldn't make her kill anymore.

But Kallen probably would not have let Euphemia pick up or keep that oddly convenient machine gun if any Japanese people were in sight, so it seems almost certain that there were none in sight, and that Lelouch's reasons for walking past Euphie before shooting her remain unknown.. But I'm certain that all Lelouch-lovers, and anyone who has even the slightest respect for him, will insist that there were no Japanese people behind Euphie and Lelouch did not deliberately risk their lives to make shooting her look better.

And so everybody except those who hate Lelouch the most will claim that there could not possibly be any Japanese witnesses to the shooting of Euphie. The only witnesses would be Lelouch, his partner CC, and his loyal subordinate Kallen., and possibly any hypothetical cameras that were there. So it would be perfectly possible for Lelouch to invite Euphemia to be his guest, gradually make her his prisoner, and simply tell the Black Knights that he had killed her and hidden her body, or that he didn't know what happened to her. When he took control of Tokyo and things settled down he could geass some Britannians to take a disguised Euphie back to Britannia and to someone who loved her.

Either Lelouch deliberately risked the lives of Japanese people by making Euphie turn around and see them, or else there were no Japanese witnesses and Lelouch could have secretly captured Euphemia and claimed the glory of killing her with no one to disprove his claim.

Or he could have openly kept her as hostage, as Sam Houston did with Santa Anna after San Jacento. The Japanese know that she is the girlfriend of the enemy' s best warrior and the sister of the enemy commander, so they will accept using her as hostage to gain some advantage. Or perhaps he could have tied her to the front of his Gawain, which was the most powerful weapon the Black Knights had, to protect it from any attacks by Suzaku or anyone obedient to Cornelia.

CC asked Lelouch if he geassed her to order the massacre, and he told her it was an accident. So she knew that Euphemia was innocent and helped him murder her, though Euphemia was less than a thirtieth of her age. That is like you killing a a baby a few months old. CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphie's geass command, making her cure a simple matter of negotiation for Euphemia's guardians.

Kallen was about to attack Euphemia with the weapon in the hand of the Gueren, when lleouch interrupted them. The Gueren's weapon roasts enemy pilots to death and fuses the ejections system to keep them from escaping. And she was about to use it on Euphie. When Suzaku picked up Euphie Kallen tried to stop him and he destroyed a hand of her Gueren, possibly the one with the deadly device. So she badly damaged her powerful nightmare tying to prevent an enemy from rescuing a comrade. Kallen didn't know if Euphie was already dead or only slightly wounded, so for all that she knew she was preventing her from being rescued in time for her life to be saved.

I hate Charles and VV for their roles in Euphemia's death, but Lelouch, CC, and Kallen were the team who killed her.

I say it is a lot easier to redeem your evil deeds in fiction than in real life. You say that the characters are not evil. I say that anyone who commits at least one evil deed is evil. I say that as far as I know only Euphemia, Shirley, Milly and Rivalez are not evil.

The discrediting of Euphie and her SAZ plan, the massacre, and the Black Knights rescuing the surviving Japanese, and then the capture of the Tokyo Settlement, may have been big boosts to Zero's power over the Japanese, but Euphemia's death was just icing on the cake compared to the other events of that day. It was a minor gain for Lelouch and and a major loss for the world of Code Geass. "One small step for a plotter, one giant fall for mankind".

You think that Euppie would have preferred to die after the massacre. Maybe, but if Lelouch thought that killing her might be some kind of mercy killing he could have maybe asked her first.

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harukadream wrote:

Marianne's death was the most necessary (she did die right o.O? idk) . Think about it, if Lelouch's mother never died(or if lelouch never thought she died) he probably would've never decided to take down Britannia. This is debateable of course, but this is just my opinion. Basically the whole first season is him trying to find out who killed his mother, with the help of the Black knights. In the end he abandoned the Black Knights anyways, so I would say his ultimate goal was to bring peace to Area 11, not just save Japan, but Britannia too. Marianne's death = Liberated Area 11.

All hail Lelouch!

Least..? I would say.. Shirley. It was just totally uncalled for. I think most of the girls who've watched this show wanted Lelouch to be paired with someone! XD Shirley was the best candidate since dating comrades is a no-no! Sorry Kallen :D. Euphemia was necessary to me (even though her death was a mistake).. I don't think the goal could be achieved if members of the royal family were alive.


Wasn't Nunnally a member of the royal family? I hear that she got to be empress at the end of the series. And she always acted more or less like a loyal Britannian, as though Lelouch never tried to make her see things his way. It sure seems to me that if the entire royal family needed to die for the plan to succeed Llelouch should have killed Nunnally too. And didn't those two slaughterers of thousands or millions, Cornelia and Schenitzel, survive to the end of the series? I don't see how Euphie's survival could have been worse than theirs from any point of view, or more necessary to any good goal.

All hate Lelouch!
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alive86 wrote:

You make very good points, all are very well thought out and very true, but I am confused on what kind of overall point you are trying to make here. Both Brittania and Lelouch were after the same thing, the destruction of the world and creation of a new better world.

Have you considered that not everyone wants to assimilate? And where is humanity in that kind of "peaceful" world, where is individuality, where is diversity, where is the wide wonderful beautiful world we desire? Where is the peace and happiness for those who don't want to be Brittania or whatever? Peace is happiness. You think that these people should then suffer "for the greater good?" Thats not for the greater good at all. That is why people rebel against the empires, their selfishness, power and greed. For a peaceful world you need co-operation and understanding this is something that the U.N.F would achieve over time. A lot quicker than the Empires you speak of, instead of centuries of oppression and forced "peace" and assimilation, there would be maybe a decade of negotiations and real peace and freedom. A caged bird always tries to escape and once again feel the wind in their wings.

but after all this is said and done I must commend you, it is not very often that I find a discussion on a forum of such intellectual level. generally by now its just turned into a flame war.

Ah yes I can see why you would lose interest, and yes I agree with your first point about Euphy. However once again I say; this series is about evil vs evil and Lelouch as the byronic hero (and main character) is what drives the story, so of course people like Euphy who have no reason to die, are going to die.
As for Geass, Lelouch destroyed it so that its evil could no longer be used, and when I said absolute I meant that it bends the users will and ultimately they do as commanded, not that it won't eventually wear off. The reason Euphy could resist the geass was because she was pure and it was against her nature completely.
Finally how can you call a byronic hero an oxymoron? Its a literary term used to define a character, which Lady Byron referred to as "bad and dangerous to know." To be characterized as any type of hero you only have to show some of the traits. Further more the massacre of the children shows Lelouch's struggle of intregity, which is a trait of a byronic hero. Every death served its purpose in the development of the story.



Nobody was trying to destroy the world except metaphorically. The world is a ball of rock 8000 miles thick. Britannia and lleouch were merely planning to change the social structure of human society in different ways. But I think that Euphemia was already beginning to use her influence with her family, especially her sister Cornelia, to change the Britannian program a bit to reduce the amount of death and destruction and suffering caused by the conquests, and make Britannian rule less harsh.

When you say that peace is happpiness I think you mean there can be no true peace without happiness. I say that the happiness that people get from knowing that their nations are still independent is like the happiness that drug addicts get from using drugs that will eventually kill them. I say there can be no true happiness without peace, and no permanent peace if independent governments exist.

I say that all innocent people must live, Therefore all children must live. Since independent nations are necessary for wars to happen, and since wars often kill children, all nations must die so that all children can live. But nations are not real living things, they are imaginary concepts to simply describe the complex way people behave in certain situations. So the deaths of all the nations ever would be less tragic than the death of a single person.

Besides, nations can continue to exist if they agree to become subordinate governments and give up their war making powers to a central government of the world. And they can retain a lot of powers if that is the agreement they make when giving up their war making powers. You should study the Holy Roman Empire in the 17th and 18th centuries. There were hundreds of states, but only a couple of dozen large ones who kept standing armies caused any trouble. The rest of the states negotiated their differences or took them to the imperial courts to be decided in cases which dragged out over decades. If a government like the Holy Roman Empire was spread over the whole world and the member states were effectively deprived of all war making ability, they could have very large powers in all other respects, like the states of the Holy Roman Empire. States which had so many powers that a lot of ignorant historians, especially German nationalists of the 19th Century, claim that they were really independent states, which was not the case.

But the nations must formally admit that they are no longer independent and no longer have the power or right to make war, even in defense of their real or imaginary rights, and their people must all all know that they are now citizens of the world as well as their nations. But I expect that the United Federation of Nations claims that the member nations are all independent and that the people of the world believe that they are citizens of nations, not the United Federation of Nations. And that is a recipe for disaster.

Nations may be good 90 percent of the time, or 99 percent of the time, or 99.9 percent of the time. But each and every one of them will be bad sometimes, if they are permitted to retain nominal and/or real independence. The United Federation of Nations, even if it is more powerful than the League of nations or the United Nations, is probably just a self delusion, an effort by the people and leaders of the world to convince themselves that they don't have to give up the national independence they are addicted to for the peace that it is their duty to give to all the generations of the future.

And if people don't unite the world by peaceful negotiation to bring the everlasting peace that it is their duty to bring, they deserve to be conquered and oppressed as much as the conqueror wants to oppress them.

In Star Trek Deep Space Nine the Dominion war in the last few seasons cost billions of lives. In one episode it was predicted that the Federation and its allies would lose the war and six hundred billion people would be killed. Before the war, a Dominion representative told Captain Sisko that the Federation could still exist as part of the Dominion, and Sisko rejected the ideal. He didn't claim that he couldn't trust the Dominion to keep its agreements, he just rejected the idea like it was a bad idea in itself. Benjamin Sisko, a resident of New Orleans, in the state of Louisiana, in the United States of America, in the United Earth, in the United Federation of Planets, seemed to think that there was something terrible about getting another layer of government over the United Federation of Planets and preventing future wars with the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians, etc. In all the episodes of the Dominion War I never head anyone explain why they were resisting the Dominion. I guess the writers just assumed that the Dominion leaders and soldiers were so shifty and cruel that resistance to the Dominion would seem the obvious thing to do.

I say that a literary term like a Byronic hero is an oxymoron despite being an accepted part of literary discussion. July 4, 1776, is the official birthday of the United States, which did not become an independent nation until the treaty of Paris in 1783. So I say that literary critics can be wrong just as often as the United States government can be wrong, that their using a term does not make it one that I will automatically recognize as being useful, any more than the authority of the United States government will make me recognize July 4, 1776 as the factual birthday of the US. If a typical Byronic hero commits deeds as evil as the worst of Lelouch's, I say there are no Byronic heroes, only villains who think they are Byronic heroes.

So the massacre of the geass directorate children was necessary to show Lelouch's struggle as as a Byronic hero? You realize that I criticize it on ethical grounds in the fictional world of Code Geass and you explain that in our world it was a necessary plot device to show Lelouch's character development. We seem to be comparing apples and oranges, or apples and diamonds, apples and asteroids, apples and driving tests, etc., etc. on this matter.
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shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....


beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.









You know what infinitycubed?
I really admire your sense of reasoning....
But because of it.... it seems that everything I said was wrong....

You said, " I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?"


During those episodes, Zero was just an emerging figure as Japanese Hero.
Do you remember Rakshata? She said something when Euphemia proclaimed the establishment of SAZ, she said (I don't exactly remember the words) "between a beloved princess and a masked rebel whose identity was known by no one, which would the people choose? tha masked man would definitely loose "
Aside from that, SAZ would definitely become a sucess because of the presence of Suzaku.

I also see the possibility that when, Zero was shot, the Japanese will go Crazy, but without Zero, will they win?


"Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch."
During the first episodes, when lelouch was trying to figure out the specs of his geass, he said to cc that not remebering the events before,during and aafter is part of his geass effect. take a look on the episode when he used geass on villetta or the others.


And regarding on the thing you said about blackmailing the emperor on going to area 11, as I have said, it is useless, why would he have to save Euphie's life if in the world he is creating, Euphie will be alive? Besides Cornelia ha no power over him or the emperor himself can persuade her into helping hin in his goal....

And another thing, there's no way the doctors would be able to hide Euphie's life in fooling Suzaku, because she died right in front of him.... And there's also no way that she would get to coma, because she was shot directly on the heart.

Oh and another thing, do you know the expression, "you cannot serve two gods at a time"?
that's why, Euphie should die because if she live then, Zero will be a subordinate which he hated the most, and if it will be Euphie to give way, the Britannia won't agree on it. Therefore, they could not work together. And, Lelouch and Nunnaly are royalties thrown away by the emperor, so there's no way of accepting them.


I can see your point, a thousand possibilities of what could've happened if Euphie didn't die, but can you think of a dramatic, regretful and hateful idea that could drive the characters as well as the viewers crazy, Better than this?


Unless you think that Lelouch overestimated the regard that the Japanese people had for him, his belief that they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury means that Zero already had as much popularity as as necessary or perhaps even possible. Unless Lelouch did not believe that they would react with suicidal rage when he was shot. Perhaps he omitted for reasons of time to tell Euphie (and thus the audience) that his orders for her would also include making the soldiers attack the crowd. If the soldiers attacked the crowd and then chased them all though the town hunting them down they would be scattered when the Black Knights arrived and would be much easier to defeat. Of course that would mean that Lelouch was deliberately planning to cause something very similar to the Fuji massacre which actually happened.

If you don't want to believe that Lelouch was that evil you must believe that he believed -- probably accurately -- that he already had all the popularity he could need. And it is true that for a while Euphemia had even more popularity with the Japanese, but once Zero made her shoot him, or once he accidentally made her order a massacre her popularity would vanish and once again Zero would be the only hope of the Japanese.

By the way, if Rakshatta said that Euphie was a beloved princess, did she mean beloved by the Japanese? If so, how did she become beloved by the Japanese? Being beloved by the Japanese would seem to be implied by the statement that she would be trusted more than Zero. Or was Euphemia already beloved by almost everyone in the world before she came to Japan, perhaps due to her leading Brittannian relief efforts at various natural disasters (since she was the only Britannian leader who cared if millions died in the aftermath of natural disasters, no doubt)? That statement certainly gives a lot to speculate about.

I say that Zero was probably at his peak as a Japanese hero during those episodes. After all, his bloody Black Rebellion failed, and some may have heard rumors that it was his fault. Then, in the second season his invasion to liberate Japan was stopped at the Second Decisive Battle of Toyko when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used and millions died. After that, I suspect that millions of Japanese came to believe that with friends like Zero, who needed enemies.

You ask if the Japanese went crazy when Zero was shot, would they win? Lelouch also told Euphemia that when the Japanese people saw him miracously revive they would know that he and not Euphemia was their true messiah. So Llelouch planned to be unconscious and seemingly dead for some period of time after Euphemia shot him and then revive and take control of the rebellion. And just exactly how Leoluch planned to do that is a subject of much speculation.

I'm certain that Lelouch did not mean to say that while someone one was controlled by a geass he would forget things that he did earlier while controlled by the geass. If a doctor was ordered to operate on and save the life of someone who he wouldn't have saved without a geass command, it would be disastrous if halfway through the operation he forgot some of the steps he had already taken. Or an engineer geassed to make complex and sophisticated adjustments to some major piece of equipment. It would be very inefficient for Euphemia to order a massacre, forget about it, then order a massacre for the second time, forget about it, order a massacre for the third time, and so on. So the fact that Euphie forgot that she ordered a massacre indicates they she very probably was totally or almost totally out of the control of the geass.

I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. I said that if Euphemia was alive, whether as prisoner in Japan or already released, it would be very unlikely for the Emperor to come to Japan since he was hated thousands of times as much as Euphie was and even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And If Euphie had been killed in the revolt the Emperor would have been thousands of times less likely to do anything as foolish as coming to Japan. A live Euphemia was absolutely necessary for Lelouch's plan to have even a tiny chance of success.

I think that doctors could fake Euphie's death in front of Suzaku by giving her a drug that made her appear dead. And perhaps that was why they dragged him away as soon as she appeared to die, to keep him from examining her closely. I hope so. But that was not what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting that Lelouch's bullet would not kill her but put her in a coma, and that would give Suzaku almost as much reason to want revenge on Lelouch And Lelouch almost as much reason to ponder whether he wanted to oppose Nunnlly as he did Euphemia. Euphie was probably not shot in the heart, since her abdomen was covered with blood but her chest had no blood on it. Being shot in the head is not necessary to cause a coma. Patients who are operated on for various reasons and given anesthesia sometimes go into comas.

And I also suggested an alternate scenario in which Lelouch would capture her, not shoot her, and she would survive the Black Rebellion and its defeat, which otherwise would be the same as in the aired episodes. Then a few months later Euphie would be attacked by vengeful Japanese assassins. And nine months later when Lelouch was deciding what course to take, there would be reports that Euphie was still in a coma from the assassination attempt.

I believe the expression is that you cannot serve two masters. Anyway polytheists can serve many gods at the same time. And again a Code geass fan makes unwarranted assumptions such as Euphemia's survival is the same thing as as the SAZ plan going into effect. Even if the SAZ plan was ruined and the massacre started Euphie could survive if LeLouch decided not to kill her or Suzaku rescued her in the nick of time, etc. etc. After agreeing to the SAZ plan Lelouch said he would not serve under Euphemia (did she boss him around when they were children? who knows?). They didn't even get around to discussing important points such as whether Lelouch and the Black Knights would continue to revolt in other regions of Japan until all of Japan was made part of the SAZ.

I say it was a bad idea to kill Euphemia for its effect on the other characters, since Euphemia was better than all the other characters combined and without her the show is just evil people fighting each other.

NO I can't think of anything that would drive the views crazy more than that, It certainly has been driving me crazy for the last eight months since i saw episode 23. I think that episodes 22 and 23 are possibly the most evil tv episodes ever. Killing Euphemia has pretty much killed my interest in anime. I don't think that i will ever watch a new anime series again until there is a new Code Geass in which Euphemia comes back to life.








I do believe that lelouch is also evil. Why? Simply because he did evil things..... But you know, being the main character, it made him much preferable to the audience. But in fairness to him, he made the world peaceful after all.

On Rakshatta, i said that i don't completely remember the words, however, it may or may not be implied. Let me ask you something, if you were in the feet of the Japanese...... Would you choose An unknown man over a well known princess who has your late prime minister's son with her. I'm pretty sure that you would choose the latter. The answer is obvious (re-watch ep. 22 and you'll get my point). And I guess that would settle your argument on your 2nd paragraph.

It is true that Lelouch planned to pretend dead, to trigger the japanese into a great rebellion, unfortunately it happened the other way. The massacre did. But even so, it happened the same way as he planned. he gained the complete power over the japanese as he proclaim himself as the savior. If you are saying that zero's popularity is at it's peak, I must disagree. It's true that the japanese will throw themslves in suicidal fury when he was shot, not because he is popular but because it would only show how cruel the britannians are. That they cannot be trusted. Zero's popularity peak was after he killed Euphie.

About the geass's specs. Please do re-watch the episodes of the season 1 and you'll get my point. Especially when he used it on Vilhetta. And as far as i could remember, there was this episode when Jerimiah and Vilhetta were talking about it. Watch those and see for yourself. We will not have to argue on this matter anymore.

"I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. "
What about this?
And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.


Isn't that what you mean when you typed it?

And why would the doctors fake Euphemia's death in front of Suzaku? It's very illogical, Schneizer and even Cornelia have no contact with her during those times. Don't tell me that the doctors will decide for it themselves? Besides, Euphie don't have to die in order to freak Suzaku out, the fact that Zero hurt her or shot her was enough reason for him to go after Zero.

And another thing, after the massacre, Euphie's name marked in a very wrong way. If you were lelouch, would you like your first love to live a life, with everyone angry on her knowing that she killed a lot of people? With Euphie's character, would she stand that?

Let's go to the polytheist, do you think that their way of serving gods is applicable to the scenario? I already said the reason why they cannot work together, just dig it.

They may all appear evil but they all share good goals.

As for Euphie's death, it drove me crazy too...... In fact, I like her character. No wonder I chose her death as the most necessary. But it is, indeed.


beginning of infinitycubed's reponse. Why isn't this in a different box?

Lelouch did not make the world peaceful in the long term. The effects of the Zero Requiem will wear off soon. And I think that the United Federation of Nations, like the League of Nations or the United nations, will largely fail to keep the peace and then disband in a few decades or centuries, because it is mostly an effort by the people and leaders of the world to fool themselves that they don't have to give up the national independence they are addicted to for the sake of the everlasting peace that it is their duty to achieve.

I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people.

If Zero's popularity was at its peak after he killed Euphie it was because Euphie and her SAZ plan were discredited and Zero seemed the only hope for the Japanese, because Zero and the Black Knights rescued the surviving Japanese at Fuji and defeated the Britannians, because Zero and the Black Knights captured Tokyo, and because Zero killed Euphie. Killing Euphie was just one small part of the process which increased his popularity. It was merely "One small step forward for a plotter, one big fall for mankind". And he should have given up that small part of his popularity to use her as a hostage to gain some material benefit. Or because she deserved to live.

I said that lleouch needed a live Euphemia, in Japan or in Britannia, to lull the Emperor into a false sense of safety so he would have even the slightest chance of coming to japan. Even if Euphemia had not been killed, the Emperor would have been stupid to come to japan, since he should have realized that even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And with her dead the chance that he would come to Japen would be much, much smaller. I said that a live Euphemie was needed to make the Emperor think it was safe to come to Japan, not to blackmail him to come to Japan.

Perhaps the doctors would fake Euphemia's death because VV pulled out his vision phone and had the Emperor give them a direct order to do so. That ought to work. When the doctors gave up on Euphie one of them said he would inform prince Sscheitzel. Perhaps he was informing Schenitzel that they were successfully faking Euphie's death. Perhaps Schenitzel, or VV, or Charles planned to hold the revived Euphemia a prisoner and taunt her about her failure to make Britannia a kinder and gentler realm.

Maybe Euphie would want to die after the massacre. But maybe she would be determined to do as much good as she possible could to win back her good name. And maybe she would want to hide somewhere for the rest of her life and hope that people would forget about her. And the Emperor might give her an important position like viceroy she would have to accept to do good for the people, despite all the unwelcome publicity she would get. And the emperor would accept the increased happiness she brought to millions of strangers in order to enjoy the increased unhappiness of Euphie, someone he knew. I say that the good of the many outweighs the good of the one, so Euphemia has to live no matter how often she wishes she was dead.

YOu say that Euphemia's death was the most necessary. I say it was perhaps the most necessary to have the Code Geass that we have, but the least necessary to have a good code Geass, or one that I would like.
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>>i understand your point, to me princess euphie death was tragic, and she was an innocent in all of this...her intentions are good, but life goes on and those who committed crimes against others will either repent or have their comeuppance...lelouch, kallen and cc are not directly responsible for euphie death, true lelouch killed her but i think she would've prefer it then live knowing the atrocity she has committed because of geass...charles and vv are more of a criminal then lelouch, i don't like them for a lot of reason but mostly because they did not care one way or another over the death of a single girl.

>>in this show lots of people committed horrible crimes, but later on they kind of redeem themselves, and that's why i like this show because it does not show black or white, people are not clearly define, they've shades of gray, they're not totally evil, they've their own reasons.

>>before princess euphie massacred the japanese, a lot of these people were afraid of brittanians...that's why they readily agree to the proposal that princess euphie suggested, but after they witnessed euphie murdered their own people, they stood up to the brittanian government and start a riot, that's the turning point for lelouch's rebellion when he got the people support completely...and what happened to euphie is not entirely lelouch fault, he accidently geassed her, and in order to advance his plan he used the massacre to give him more power in order to be on an even footing with brittania, his power in season 2 is so much more than he has before euphie action.

Lelouch, CC, and Kallen are directly responsible for Euphemia's death, they are the team that killed her. Charles and VV just set the scene and let the actors decide what good or evil they would do. And I included them among the people that would be most likely to be executed for Euphemia's death in one of my posts. But Lelouch, CC, and Kallen are much more directly responsible for her death.

Lelouch ordered the Black Knights to kill her. If he had wanted her to survive his plan to make her shoot him he would have thought of a way to protect her. And he could have modified that way to protect her in the somewhat different circumstances of the massacre. But he didn't, so he probably came to the meeting with her expecting to kill her. And even though Euphie's massacre may have been a more important factor in Lleouch's position in the second season than I believe, Lelouch gained his increased popularity, if any, by rescuing the surviving Japanese and defeating and killing most of the Britannians at Fuji, and then leading the capture of the Tokyo settlement. Killing Euphemia was just the icing on the cake of his popularity.

I believe that Leleouch may have planned to give Euphemia additional orders to do after she shot him, so she didn't come out of her geass trance and do something to calm down the situation. He probably intended to order her to gather a bunch of Japanese prisoners near the stage to witness his miraclous resurrection, and to slaughter thousands of Japanese in the stadium and then have her men scatter thoughout the SAZ to hunt down those who fled, making the brittannians disperse and be easy targets for the Black Knights when they arrived.

And he probably ordered Euphie to shoot at him (but be sure to miss) when he rose from the "dead" and maybe shoot at the Japanese witnesses. And he may have attached cameras to the Gawain to record him shooting Euphemia as she shot at him and/or the Japanese prisoners, to use as Black knight propaganda.

When Euphemia picked up a machine gun from the ground she shot at the nightmares in front of her, despite the fact that they were armored and she would have little chance of harming their occupants. That just about proves that there were no living Japanese persons in sight in front of her and behind the nightmares, or the geass would have made her shoot at them. And when Lleouch got out of his nightmare he walked up to Euphie and past her and way from her, She turned around to look at him before he turned and shot her. Why did Lelouch walk past Euphie?

Maybe Lelouch saw living Japanese behind Euphie and walked past her to make her turn around and see them and shoot at them, so he could look good shooting her. If there were cameras on the Gawain the Japanese people might have been in sight of the cameras, making it look like Zero shot Euphie to protect the Japanese people. Or they might have been out of sight of the cameras and it would look like Zero shot Euphie after she shot at him. If Lelouch was planning that, he must have been disappointed, because Euphie didn't shoot and i didn't even hear sounds like she was trying but failing to get the machine gun to fire. Either there were no Japanese in sight or Euphie's superhuman goodness had enabled her to defeat the geass enough that it couldn't make her kill anymore.

But Kallen probably would not have let Euphemia pick up or keep that oddly convenient machine gun if any Japanese people were in sight, so it seems almost certain that there were none in sight, and that Lelouch's reasons for walking past Euphie before shooting her remain unknown.. But I'm certain that all Lelouch-lovers, and anyone who has even the slightest respect for him, will insist that there were no Japanese people behind Euphie and Lelouch did not deliberately risk their lives to make shooting her look better.

And so everybody except those who hate Lelouch the most will claim that there could not possibly be any Japanese witnesses to the shooting of Euphie. The only witnesses would be Lelouch, his partner CC, and his loyal subordinate Kallen., and possibly any hypothetical cameras that were there. So it would be perfectly possible for Lelouch to invite Euphemia to be his guest, gradually make her his prisoner, and simply tell the Black Knights that he had killed her and hidden her body, or that he didn't know what happened to her. When he took control of Tokyo and things settled down he could geass some Britannians to take a disguised Euphie back to Britannia and to someone who loved her.

Either Lelouch deliberately risked the lives of Japanese people by making Euphie turn around and see them, or else there were no Japanese witnesses and Lelouch could have secretly captured Euphemia and claimed the glory of killing her with no one to disprove his claim.

Or he could have openly kept her as hostage, as Sam Houston did with Santa Anna after San Jacento. The Japanese know that she is the girlfriend of the enemy' s best warrior and the sister of the enemy commander, so they will accept using her as hostage to gain some advantage. Or perhaps he could have tied her to the front of his Gawain, which was the most powerful weapon the Black Knights had, to protect it from any attacks by Suzaku or anyone obedient to Cornelia.

CC asked Lelouch if he geassed her to order the massacre, and he told her it was an accident. So she knew that Euphemia was innocent and helped him murder her, though Euphemia was less than a thirtieth of her age. That is like you killing a a baby a few months old. CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphie's geass command, making her cure a simple matter of negotiation for Euphemia's guardians.

Kallen was about to attack Euphemia with the weapon in the hand of the Gueren, when lleouch interrupted them. The Gueren's weapon roasts enemy pilots to death and fuses the ejections system to keep them from escaping. And she was about to use it on Euphie. When Suzaku picked up Euphie Kallen tried to stop him and he destroyed a hand of her Gueren, possibly the one with the deadly device. So she badly damaged her powerful nightmare tying to prevent an enemy from rescuing a comrade. Kallen didn't know if Euphie was already dead or only slightly wounded, so for all that she knew she was preventing her from being rescued in time for her life to be saved.

I hate Charles and VV for their roles in Euphemia's death, but Lelouch, CC, and Kallen were the team who killed her.

I say it is a lot easier to redeem your evil deeds in fiction than in real life. You say that the characters are not evil. I say that anyone who commits at least one evil deed is evil. I say that as far as I know only Euphemia, Shirley, Milly and Rivalez are not evil.

The discrediting of Euphie and her SAZ plan, the massacre, and the Black Knights rescuing the surviving Japanese, and then the capture of the Tokyo Settlement, may have been big boosts to Zero's power over the Japanese, but Euphemia's death was just icing on the cake compared to the other events of that day. It was a minor gain for Lelouch and and a major loss for the world of Code Geass. "One small step for a plotter, one giant fall for mankind".

You think that Euppie would have preferred to die after the massacre. Maybe, but if Lelouch thought that killing her might be some kind of mercy killing he could have maybe asked her first.




your response is too long, you should make it shorter so others can comment, but i already say my piece...the geass went haywire and as a result euphie caused many deaths...lelouch decides to use her in order to turn the tides in his favor by making britannia takes the blame and ultimately euphie. the japanese believe euphie and britannia orchestrated the whole things and so loss their trust in them...cc does not care one way or another since she made a contract with lelouch she would support him no matter what, but what you don't realize is lelouch feel guilt for doing what he did to euphie, and euphie was under the geass control and would go on killing the japanese, so he has no choice...i don't think she can break the geass control over her either, it was only after she got shot that the geass became weaker and she was able to resist it. kallen is half japanese, i think it makes sense for her to want to get revenge for her people; although i don't like kallen that much because she's too trusting of zero and so full of herself, but that's another point...should lelouch ask euphie before shooting her, that makes me laugh, i think it's obvious why he does not, she would say no or ask him to help her kill more japanese...the geass power is strong, it will makes others do things they would not normally do, and i think the reason nunnally was able to broke the geass power on her because the person who used it on her already dead so it has weaken.

i don't like oppression in any case, the japanese should get back their freedom, and i root for lelouch because he already gone too far to go back (causing many deaths along the way), so i want his plans to succeed.

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infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....


beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.









You know what infinitycubed?
I really admire your sense of reasoning....
But because of it.... it seems that everything I said was wrong....

You said, " I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?"


During those episodes, Zero was just an emerging figure as Japanese Hero.
Do you remember Rakshata? She said something when Euphemia proclaimed the establishment of SAZ, she said (I don't exactly remember the words) "between a beloved princess and a masked rebel whose identity was known by no one, which would the people choose? tha masked man would definitely loose "
Aside from that, SAZ would definitely become a sucess because of the presence of Suzaku.

I also see the possibility that when, Zero was shot, the Japanese will go Crazy, but without Zero, will they win?


"Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch."
During the first episodes, when lelouch was trying to figure out the specs of his geass, he said to cc that not remebering the events before,during and aafter is part of his geass effect. take a look on the episode when he used geass on villetta or the others.


And regarding on the thing you said about blackmailing the emperor on going to area 11, as I have said, it is useless, why would he have to save Euphie's life if in the world he is creating, Euphie will be alive? Besides Cornelia ha no power over him or the emperor himself can persuade her into helping hin in his goal....

And another thing, there's no way the doctors would be able to hide Euphie's life in fooling Suzaku, because she died right in front of him.... And there's also no way that she would get to coma, because she was shot directly on the heart.

Oh and another thing, do you know the expression, "you cannot serve two gods at a time"?
that's why, Euphie should die because if she live then, Zero will be a subordinate which he hated the most, and if it will be Euphie to give way, the Britannia won't agree on it. Therefore, they could not work together. And, Lelouch and Nunnaly are royalties thrown away by the emperor, so there's no way of accepting them.


I can see your point, a thousand possibilities of what could've happened if Euphie didn't die, but can you think of a dramatic, regretful and hateful idea that could drive the characters as well as the viewers crazy, Better than this?


Unless you think that Lelouch overestimated the regard that the Japanese people had for him, his belief that they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury means that Zero already had as much popularity as as necessary or perhaps even possible. Unless Lelouch did not believe that they would react with suicidal rage when he was shot. Perhaps he omitted for reasons of time to tell Euphie (and thus the audience) that his orders for her would also include making the soldiers attack the crowd. If the soldiers attacked the crowd and then chased them all though the town hunting them down they would be scattered when the Black Knights arrived and would be much easier to defeat. Of course that would mean that Lelouch was deliberately planning to cause something very similar to the Fuji massacre which actually happened.

If you don't want to believe that Lelouch was that evil you must believe that he believed -- probably accurately -- that he already had all the popularity he could need. And it is true that for a while Euphemia had even more popularity with the Japanese, but once Zero made her shoot him, or once he accidentally made her order a massacre her popularity would vanish and once again Zero would be the only hope of the Japanese.

By the way, if Rakshatta said that Euphie was a beloved princess, did she mean beloved by the Japanese? If so, how did she become beloved by the Japanese? Being beloved by the Japanese would seem to be implied by the statement that she would be trusted more than Zero. Or was Euphemia already beloved by almost everyone in the world before she came to Japan, perhaps due to her leading Brittannian relief efforts at various natural disasters (since she was the only Britannian leader who cared if millions died in the aftermath of natural disasters, no doubt)? That statement certainly gives a lot to speculate about.

I say that Zero was probably at his peak as a Japanese hero during those episodes. After all, his bloody Black Rebellion failed, and some may have heard rumors that it was his fault. Then, in the second season his invasion to liberate Japan was stopped at the Second Decisive Battle of Toyko when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used and millions died. After that, I suspect that millions of Japanese came to believe that with friends like Zero, who needed enemies.

You ask if the Japanese went crazy when Zero was shot, would they win? Lelouch also told Euphemia that when the Japanese people saw him miracously revive they would know that he and not Euphemia was their true messiah. So Llelouch planned to be unconscious and seemingly dead for some period of time after Euphemia shot him and then revive and take control of the rebellion. And just exactly how Leoluch planned to do that is a subject of much speculation.

I'm certain that Lelouch did not mean to say that while someone one was controlled by a geass he would forget things that he did earlier while controlled by the geass. If a doctor was ordered to operate on and save the life of someone who he wouldn't have saved without a geass command, it would be disastrous if halfway through the operation he forgot some of the steps he had already taken. Or an engineer geassed to make complex and sophisticated adjustments to some major piece of equipment. It would be very inefficient for Euphemia to order a massacre, forget about it, then order a massacre for the second time, forget about it, order a massacre for the third time, and so on. So the fact that Euphie forgot that she ordered a massacre indicates they she very probably was totally or almost totally out of the control of the geass.

I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. I said that if Euphemia was alive, whether as prisoner in Japan or already released, it would be very unlikely for the Emperor to come to Japan since he was hated thousands of times as much as Euphie was and even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And If Euphie had been killed in the revolt the Emperor would have been thousands of times less likely to do anything as foolish as coming to Japan. A live Euphemia was absolutely necessary for Lelouch's plan to have even a tiny chance of success.

I think that doctors could fake Euphie's death in front of Suzaku by giving her a drug that made her appear dead. And perhaps that was why they dragged him away as soon as she appeared to die, to keep him from examining her closely. I hope so. But that was not what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting that Lelouch's bullet would not kill her but put her in a coma, and that would give Suzaku almost as much reason to want revenge on Lelouch And Lelouch almost as much reason to ponder whether he wanted to oppose Nunnlly as he did Euphemia. Euphie was probably not shot in the heart, since her abdomen was covered with blood but her chest had no blood on it. Being shot in the head is not necessary to cause a coma. Patients who are operated on for various reasons and given anesthesia sometimes go into comas.

And I also suggested an alternate scenario in which Lelouch would capture her, not shoot her, and she would survive the Black Rebellion and its defeat, which otherwise would be the same as in the aired episodes. Then a few months later Euphie would be attacked by vengeful Japanese assassins. And nine months later when Lelouch was deciding what course to take, there would be reports that Euphie was still in a coma from the assassination attempt.

I believe the expression is that you cannot serve two masters. Anyway polytheists can serve many gods at the same time. And again a Code geass fan makes unwarranted assumptions such as Euphemia's survival is the same thing as as the SAZ plan going into effect. Even if the SAZ plan was ruined and the massacre started Euphie could survive if LeLouch decided not to kill her or Suzaku rescued her in the nick of time, etc. etc. After agreeing to the SAZ plan Lelouch said he would not serve under Euphemia (did she boss him around when they were children? who knows?). They didn't even get around to discussing important points such as whether Lelouch and the Black Knights would continue to revolt in other regions of Japan until all of Japan was made part of the SAZ.

I say it was a bad idea to kill Euphemia for its effect on the other characters, since Euphemia was better than all the other characters combined and without her the show is just evil people fighting each other.

NO I can't think of anything that would drive the views crazy more than that, It certainly has been driving me crazy for the last eight months since i saw episode 23. I think that episodes 22 and 23 are possibly the most evil tv episodes ever. Killing Euphemia has pretty much killed my interest in anime. I don't think that i will ever watch a new anime series again until there is a new Code Geass in which Euphemia comes back to life.








I do believe that lelouch is also evil. Why? Simply because he did evil things..... But you know, being the main character, it made him much preferable to the audience. But in fairness to him, he made the world peaceful after all.

On Rakshatta, i said that i don't completely remember the words, however, it may or may not be implied. Let me ask you something, if you were in the feet of the Japanese...... Would you choose An unknown man over a well known princess who has your late prime minister's son with her. I'm pretty sure that you would choose the latter. The answer is obvious (re-watch ep. 22 and you'll get my point). And I guess that would settle your argument on your 2nd paragraph.

It is true that Lelouch planned to pretend dead, to trigger the japanese into a great rebellion, unfortunately it happened the other way. The massacre did. But even so, it happened the same way as he planned. he gained the complete power over the japanese as he proclaim himself as the savior. If you are saying that zero's popularity is at it's peak, I must disagree. It's true that the japanese will throw themslves in suicidal fury when he was shot, not because he is popular but because it would only show how cruel the britannians are. That they cannot be trusted. Zero's popularity peak was after he killed Euphie.

About the geass's specs. Please do re-watch the episodes of the season 1 and you'll get my point. Especially when he used it on Vilhetta. And as far as i could remember, there was this episode when Jerimiah and Vilhetta were talking about it. Watch those and see for yourself. We will not have to argue on this matter anymore.

"I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. "
What about this?
And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.


Isn't that what you mean when you typed it?

And why would the doctors fake Euphemia's death in front of Suzaku? It's very illogical, Schneizer and even Cornelia have no contact with her during those times. Don't tell me that the doctors will decide for it themselves? Besides, Euphie don't have to die in order to freak Suzaku out, the fact that Zero hurt her or shot her was enough reason for him to go after Zero.

And another thing, after the massacre, Euphie's name marked in a very wrong way. If you were lelouch, would you like your first love to live a life, with everyone angry on her knowing that she killed a lot of people? With Euphie's character, would she stand that?

Let's go to the polytheist, do you think that their way of serving gods is applicable to the scenario? I already said the reason why they cannot work together, just dig it.

They may all appear evil but they all share good goals.

As for Euphie's death, it drove me crazy too...... In fact, I like her character. No wonder I chose her death as the most necessary. But it is, indeed.



beginning of infinitycubed's reponse. Why isn't this in a different box?

Lelouch did not make the world peaceful in the long term. The effects of the Zero Requiem will wear off soon. And I think that the United Federation of Nations, like the League of Nations or the United nations, will largely fail to keep the peace and then disband in a few decades or centuries, because it is mostly an effort by the people and leaders of the world to fool themselves that they don't have to give up the national independence they are addicted to for the sake of the everlasting peace that it is their duty to achieve.

I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people.

If Zero's popularity was at its peak after he killed Euphie it was because Euphie and her SAZ plan were discredited and Zero seemed the only hope for the Japanese, because Zero and the Black Knights rescued the surviving Japanese at Fuji and defeated the Britannians, because Zero and the Black Knights captured Tokyo, and because Zero killed Euphie. Killing Euphie was just one small part of the process which increased his popularity. It was merely "One small step forward for a plotter, one big fall for mankind". And he should have given up that small part of his popularity to use her as a hostage to gain some material benefit. Or because she deserved to live.

I said that lleouch needed a live Euphemia, in Japan or in Britannia, to lull the Emperor into a false sense of safety so he would have even the slightest chance of coming to japan. Even if Euphemia had not been killed, the Emperor would have been stupid to come to japan, since he should have realized that even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And with her dead the chance that he would come to Japen would be much, much smaller. I said that a live Euphemie was needed to make the Emperor think it was safe to come to Japan, not to blackmail him to come to Japan.

Perhaps the doctors would fake Euphemia's death because VV pulled out his vision phone and had the Emperor give them a direct order to do so. That ought to work. When the doctors gave up on Euphie one of them said he would inform prince Sscheitzel. Perhaps he was informing Schenitzel that they were successfully faking Euphie's death. Perhaps Schenitzel, or VV, or Charles planned to hold the revived Euphemia a prisoner and taunt her about her failure to make Britannia a kinder and gentler realm.

Maybe Euphie would want to die after the massacre. But maybe she would be determined to do as much good as she possible could to win back her good name. And maybe she would want to hide somewhere for the rest of her life and hope that people would forget about her. And the Emperor might give her an important position like viceroy she would have to accept to do good for the people, despite all the unwelcome publicity she would get. And the emperor would accept the increased happiness she brought to millions of strangers in order to enjoy the increased unhappiness of Euphie, someone he knew. I say that the good of the many outweighs the good of the one, so Euphemia has to live no matter how often she wishes she was dead.

YOu say that Euphemia's death was the most necessary. I say it was perhaps the most necessary to have the Code Geass that we have, but the least necessary to have a good code Geass, or one that I would like.






. . + maybe they are running out of box........ hehehehehehe


I agree.... "the effect of Zero Requiem will wear off soon".... because there is no permanent thing here on Earth except change, right?
But on your statement: "I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people."
I must disagree.... on the storyline.... do you think that Brtiannia wants to conquer the world in order to unite all nations?
I think not.... it was clearly stated there that Charles started wars in order that CC would show up.... in order for him and VV and Marianne to start the Ragnarok Conjunction

If you don't think that it was after Euphie's death that Zero had his popularity peak.... then when was it?

VV and Charles know what was happening during those times so, it is definitely not Charles nor VV who will take action to fake Euphie's death.... Do you remember the scene on episode 23 or 22 when Charles was laughing out loud at the sword of akasha saying " You deserve to be called my child".... to whom do you think he was saying that?
While to Schneizel..... remember....there was a signal interference during those times making communication very hard. That is also the reason why the media can not cut the broadcast of the massacre.

Not because the best character died....it means that the whole story was bad.....
Can't you see, that in spite of the fact that they all did evil things in order to achieve their goals.... the story still showed that human in nature is good.....
that they are all victims of unwanted circumstances going on around them.... that the evil actions they have taken were inevitable.....
the process was evil .... but the product is peace, a matter of good

To Euphie's death......
Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....

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harukadream wrote:

Marianne's death was the most necessary (she did die right o.O? idk) . Think about it, if Lelouch's mother never died(or if lelouch never thought she died) he probably would've never decided to take down Britannia. This is debateable of course, but this is just my opinion. Basically the whole first season is him trying to find out who killed his mother, with the help of the Black knights. In the end he abandoned the Black Knights anyways, so I would say his ultimate goal was to bring peace to Area 11, not just save Japan, but Britannia too. Marianne's death = Liberated Area 11.

All hail Lelouch!

Least..? I would say.. Shirley. It was just totally uncalled for. I think most of the girls who've watched this show wanted Lelouch to be paired with someone! XD Shirley was the best candidate since dating comrades is a no-no! Sorry Kallen :D. Euphemia was necessary to me (even though her death was a mistake).. I don't think the goal could be achieved if members of the royal family were alive.



You say that Euphie's death was necessary and a mistake. Giving Euphie the geass command was an accident or mistake. But killing her was not an inevitable reaction to giving her the geass command and was not part of the accident or mistake. Episode 23 shows that Lelouch passes up chances to capture Euphie or trick her into becoming his prisoner and ignores those chances and murders her instead. Even though she would make a great hostage to force the Britannians to call off the massacre or get Suzaku to switch sides, even though she could be cured of the geass command in a few days if VV was persuaded to lift it from her, even though she seemed to be breaking free of the geass command with superhuman resistance to evil.

Whats this about all members of the royal family having to die to achieve the goal? I believe that Cornelia, the Witch of Britannia, who killed thousands or millions in various wars, and ordered the Saitema Ghetto Massacre, survived, and Schenitzel, responsible for developing F.R.E.I.J.A. and using it to kill millions, survived, and Nunnally, who I believe also used F.R.E.I.J.A, survived and became Empress of Britannia.

So at least three members of the royal family survived, and Euphemia was a kinder, gentler, and more harmless person than any of them. How Could Euphemia's death be more necessary to achieve any worthwhile goal than the death or Nunnally, or Cornelia, or Scheneitzel?
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shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....


beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.









You know what infinitycubed?
I really admire your sense of reasoning....
But because of it.... it seems that everything I said was wrong....

You said, " I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?"


During those episodes, Zero was just an emerging figure as Japanese Hero.
Do you remember Rakshata? She said something when Euphemia proclaimed the establishment of SAZ, she said (I don't exactly remember the words) "between a beloved princess and a masked rebel whose identity was known by no one, which would the people choose? tha masked man would definitely loose "
Aside from that, SAZ would definitely become a sucess because of the presence of Suzaku.

I also see the possibility that when, Zero was shot, the Japanese will go Crazy, but without Zero, will they win?


"Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch."
During the first episodes, when lelouch was trying to figure out the specs of his geass, he said to cc that not remebering the events before,during and aafter is part of his geass effect. take a look on the episode when he used geass on villetta or the others.


And regarding on the thing you said about blackmailing the emperor on going to area 11, as I have said, it is useless, why would he have to save Euphie's life if in the world he is creating, Euphie will be alive? Besides Cornelia ha no power over him or the emperor himself can persuade her into helping hin in his goal....

And another thing, there's no way the doctors would be able to hide Euphie's life in fooling Suzaku, because she died right in front of him.... And there's also no way that she would get to coma, because she was shot directly on the heart.

Oh and another thing, do you know the expression, "you cannot serve two gods at a time"?
that's why, Euphie should die because if she live then, Zero will be a subordinate which he hated the most, and if it will be Euphie to give way, the Britannia won't agree on it. Therefore, they could not work together. And, Lelouch and Nunnaly are royalties thrown away by the emperor, so there's no way of accepting them.


I can see your point, a thousand possibilities of what could've happened if Euphie didn't die, but can you think of a dramatic, regretful and hateful idea that could drive the characters as well as the viewers crazy, Better than this?


Unless you think that Lelouch overestimated the regard that the Japanese people had for him, his belief that they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury means that Zero already had as much popularity as as necessary or perhaps even possible. Unless Lelouch did not believe that they would react with suicidal rage when he was shot. Perhaps he omitted for reasons of time to tell Euphie (and thus the audience) that his orders for her would also include making the soldiers attack the crowd. If the soldiers attacked the crowd and then chased them all though the town hunting them down they would be scattered when the Black Knights arrived and would be much easier to defeat. Of course that would mean that Lelouch was deliberately planning to cause something very similar to the Fuji massacre which actually happened.

If you don't want to believe that Lelouch was that evil you must believe that he believed -- probably accurately -- that he already had all the popularity he could need. And it is true that for a while Euphemia had even more popularity with the Japanese, but once Zero made her shoot him, or once he accidentally made her order a massacre her popularity would vanish and once again Zero would be the only hope of the Japanese.

By the way, if Rakshatta said that Euphie was a beloved princess, did she mean beloved by the Japanese? If so, how did she become beloved by the Japanese? Being beloved by the Japanese would seem to be implied by the statement that she would be trusted more than Zero. Or was Euphemia already beloved by almost everyone in the world before she came to Japan, perhaps due to her leading Brittannian relief efforts at various natural disasters (since she was the only Britannian leader who cared if millions died in the aftermath of natural disasters, no doubt)? That statement certainly gives a lot to speculate about.

I say that Zero was probably at his peak as a Japanese hero during those episodes. After all, his bloody Black Rebellion failed, and some may have heard rumors that it was his fault. Then, in the second season his invasion to liberate Japan was stopped at the Second Decisive Battle of Toyko when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used and millions died. After that, I suspect that millions of Japanese came to believe that with friends like Zero, who needed enemies.

You ask if the Japanese went crazy when Zero was shot, would they win? Lelouch also told Euphemia that when the Japanese people saw him miracously revive they would know that he and not Euphemia was their true messiah. So Llelouch planned to be unconscious and seemingly dead for some period of time after Euphemia shot him and then revive and take control of the rebellion. And just exactly how Leoluch planned to do that is a subject of much speculation.

I'm certain that Lelouch did not mean to say that while someone one was controlled by a geass he would forget things that he did earlier while controlled by the geass. If a doctor was ordered to operate on and save the life of someone who he wouldn't have saved without a geass command, it would be disastrous if halfway through the operation he forgot some of the steps he had already taken. Or an engineer geassed to make complex and sophisticated adjustments to some major piece of equipment. It would be very inefficient for Euphemia to order a massacre, forget about it, then order a massacre for the second time, forget about it, order a massacre for the third time, and so on. So the fact that Euphie forgot that she ordered a massacre indicates they she very probably was totally or almost totally out of the control of the geass.

I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. I said that if Euphemia was alive, whether as prisoner in Japan or already released, it would be very unlikely for the Emperor to come to Japan since he was hated thousands of times as much as Euphie was and even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And If Euphie had been killed in the revolt the Emperor would have been thousands of times less likely to do anything as foolish as coming to Japan. A live Euphemia was absolutely necessary for Lelouch's plan to have even a tiny chance of success.

I think that doctors could fake Euphie's death in front of Suzaku by giving her a drug that made her appear dead. And perhaps that was why they dragged him away as soon as she appeared to die, to keep him from examining her closely. I hope so. But that was not what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting that Lelouch's bullet would not kill her but put her in a coma, and that would give Suzaku almost as much reason to want revenge on Lelouch And Lelouch almost as much reason to ponder whether he wanted to oppose Nunnlly as he did Euphemia. Euphie was probably not shot in the heart, since her abdomen was covered with blood but her chest had no blood on it. Being shot in the head is not necessary to cause a coma. Patients who are operated on for various reasons and given anesthesia sometimes go into comas.

And I also suggested an alternate scenario in which Lelouch would capture her, not shoot her, and she would survive the Black Rebellion and its defeat, which otherwise would be the same as in the aired episodes. Then a few months later Euphie would be attacked by vengeful Japanese assassins. And nine months later when Lelouch was deciding what course to take, there would be reports that Euphie was still in a coma from the assassination attempt.

I believe the expression is that you cannot serve two masters. Anyway polytheists can serve many gods at the same time. And again a Code geass fan makes unwarranted assumptions such as Euphemia's survival is the same thing as as the SAZ plan going into effect. Even if the SAZ plan was ruined and the massacre started Euphie could survive if LeLouch decided not to kill her or Suzaku rescued her in the nick of time, etc. etc. After agreeing to the SAZ plan Lelouch said he would not serve under Euphemia (did she boss him around when they were children? who knows?). They didn't even get around to discussing important points such as whether Lelouch and the Black Knights would continue to revolt in other regions of Japan until all of Japan was made part of the SAZ.

I say it was a bad idea to kill Euphemia for its effect on the other characters, since Euphemia was better than all the other characters combined and without her the show is just evil people fighting each other.

NO I can't think of anything that would drive the views crazy more than that, It certainly has been driving me crazy for the last eight months since i saw episode 23. I think that episodes 22 and 23 are possibly the most evil tv episodes ever. Killing Euphemia has pretty much killed my interest in anime. I don't think that i will ever watch a new anime series again until there is a new Code Geass in which Euphemia comes back to life.








I do believe that lelouch is also evil. Why? Simply because he did evil things..... But you know, being the main character, it made him much preferable to the audience. But in fairness to him, he made the world peaceful after all.

On Rakshatta, i said that i don't completely remember the words, however, it may or may not be implied. Let me ask you something, if you were in the feet of the Japanese...... Would you choose An unknown man over a well known princess who has your late prime minister's son with her. I'm pretty sure that you would choose the latter. The answer is obvious (re-watch ep. 22 and you'll get my point). And I guess that would settle your argument on your 2nd paragraph.

It is true that Lelouch planned to pretend dead, to trigger the japanese into a great rebellion, unfortunately it happened the other way. The massacre did. But even so, it happened the same way as he planned. he gained the complete power over the japanese as he proclaim himself as the savior. If you are saying that zero's popularity is at it's peak, I must disagree. It's true that the japanese will throw themslves in suicidal fury when he was shot, not because he is popular but because it would only show how cruel the britannians are. That they cannot be trusted. Zero's popularity peak was after he killed Euphie.

About the geass's specs. Please do re-watch the episodes of the season 1 and you'll get my point. Especially when he used it on Vilhetta. And as far as i could remember, there was this episode when Jerimiah and Vilhetta were talking about it. Watch those and see for yourself. We will not have to argue on this matter anymore.

"I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. "
What about this?
And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.


Isn't that what you mean when you typed it?

And why would the doctors fake Euphemia's death in front of Suzaku? It's very illogical, Schneizer and even Cornelia have no contact with her during those times. Don't tell me that the doctors will decide for it themselves? Besides, Euphie don't have to die in order to freak Suzaku out, the fact that Zero hurt her or shot her was enough reason for him to go after Zero.

And another thing, after the massacre, Euphie's name marked in a very wrong way. If you were lelouch, would you like your first love to live a life, with everyone angry on her knowing that she killed a lot of people? With Euphie's character, would she stand that?

Let's go to the polytheist, do you think that their way of serving gods is applicable to the scenario? I already said the reason why they cannot work together, just dig it.

They may all appear evil but they all share good goals.

As for Euphie's death, it drove me crazy too...... In fact, I like her character. No wonder I chose her death as the most necessary. But it is, indeed.



beginning of infinitycubed's reponse. Why isn't this in a different box?

Lelouch did not make the world peaceful in the long term. The effects of the Zero Requiem will wear off soon. And I think that the United Federation of Nations, like the League of Nations or the United nations, will largely fail to keep the peace and then disband in a few decades or centuries, because it is mostly an effort by the people and leaders of the world to fool themselves that they don't have to give up the national independence they are addicted to for the sake of the everlasting peace that it is their duty to achieve.

I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people.

If Zero's popularity was at its peak after he killed Euphie it was because Euphie and her SAZ plan were discredited and Zero seemed the only hope for the Japanese, because Zero and the Black Knights rescued the surviving Japanese at Fuji and defeated the Britannians, because Zero and the Black Knights captured Tokyo, and because Zero killed Euphie. Killing Euphie was just one small part of the process which increased his popularity. It was merely "One small step forward for a plotter, one big fall for mankind". And he should have given up that small part of his popularity to use her as a hostage to gain some material benefit. Or because she deserved to live.

I said that lleouch needed a live Euphemia, in Japan or in Britannia, to lull the Emperor into a false sense of safety so he would have even the slightest chance of coming to japan. Even if Euphemia had not been killed, the Emperor would have been stupid to come to japan, since he should have realized that even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And with her dead the chance that he would come to Japen would be much, much smaller. I said that a live Euphemie was needed to make the Emperor think it was safe to come to Japan, not to blackmail him to come to Japan.

Perhaps the doctors would fake Euphemia's death because VV pulled out his vision phone and had the Emperor give them a direct order to do so. That ought to work. When the doctors gave up on Euphie one of them said he would inform prince Sscheitzel. Perhaps he was informing Schenitzel that they were successfully faking Euphie's death. Perhaps Schenitzel, or VV, or Charles planned to hold the revived Euphemia a prisoner and taunt her about her failure to make Britannia a kinder and gentler realm.

Maybe Euphie would want to die after the massacre. But maybe she would be determined to do as much good as she possible could to win back her good name. And maybe she would want to hide somewhere for the rest of her life and hope that people would forget about her. And the Emperor might give her an important position like viceroy she would have to accept to do good for the people, despite all the unwelcome publicity she would get. And the emperor would accept the increased happiness she brought to millions of strangers in order to enjoy the increased unhappiness of Euphie, someone he knew. I say that the good of the many outweighs the good of the one, so Euphemia has to live no matter how often she wishes she was dead.

YOu say that Euphemia's death was the most necessary. I say it was perhaps the most necessary to have the Code Geass that we have, but the least necessary to have a good code Geass, or one that I would like.







. . + maybe they are running out of box........ hehehehehehe


I agree.... "the effect of Zero Requiem will wear off soon".... because there is no permanent thing here on Earth except change, right?
But on your statement: "I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people."
I must disagree.... on the storyline.... do you think that Brtiannia wants to conquer the world in order to unite all nations?
I think not.... it was clearly stated there that Charles started wars in order that CC would show up.... in order for him and VV and Marianne to start the Ragnarok Conjunction

If you don't think that it was after Euphie's death that Zero had his popularity peak.... then when was it?

VV and Charles know what was happening during those times so, it is definitely not Charles nor VV who will take action to fake Euphie's death.... Do you remember the scene on episode 23 or 22 when Charles was laughing out loud at the sword of akasha saying " You deserve to be called my child".... to whom do you think he was saying that?
While to Schneizel..... remember....there was a signal interference during those times making communication very hard. That is also the reason why the media can not cut the broadcast of the massacre.

Not because the best character died....it means that the whole story was bad.....
Can't you see, that in spite of the fact that they all did evil things in order to achieve their goals.... the story still showed that human in nature is good.....
that they are all victims of unwanted circumstances going on around them.... that the evil actions they have taken were inevitable.....
the process was evil .... but the product is peace, a matter of good

To Euphie's death......
Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....



I don't care what motive Charles had for conquest, or what motive the other Britannians had for supporting his conquests. If Charles' Ragnarok plan was foiled and the new emperor wanted to keep on conquering for whatever reasons, Britannia would keep on conquering, and possibly conquer and/or negotiate union with, the rest of the world. Thus ending war forever. .

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high, but then the Black rebellion was crushed and there may have been a lot of rumors that zero had abandoned his forces during the crisis, which should have lowered his popularity somewhat.. Then his popularity may have gradually declined as the Japanese suffered harsher rule in the year between the first and the second seasons and some blamed it on Zero for starting the Black Rebellion. So possibly Zero's popularity was no higher or even less than it was before killing Euphie.

Anyway, Zero's popularity surge at the end of the first season was largely due to rescuing the survivors of the Fuji massacre (little did they know that he had been planning to cause a similar slaughter), defeating the Britannians, and leading the capture of the Tokyo Settlement. Killing Euphemia merely caused part of his popularity surge.

A reason on for Charles to fake Euphie's death. Annoyed by her kindness and gentleness, Charles had her given super human strength, speed, and ability to recover from injuries, trained as an assassin, and brainwashed to have a second personality that would be activated by secret codes to carry out assassinations unknown to Euphie's true self. So when she was serious wounded Charles ordered the doctors to fake her death for Suzaku and had VV use the secret codes to activate her assassin personality. No doubt after she recovered Charles had the assassin personality kill various random Japanese people in front of witnesses, starting rumors that Euphie's ghost was killing people and further blackening her name. Then he kept her assassin personality in control of her body full time, since Euphie was believed dead. But she kept escaping from the control of her brainwashing and Charles had to use the secret codes to regain control of her more and more often, until he was killed. Then she escaped from her brainwashing about the time of the series ending.

And if there was an R3 Charles could reappear, having faked his own death to see what would happen, and now intent on taking the Britannian throne from Nunnally. In the final confrontation, when Charles seemed trapped, he would use the secret codes on Euphemia to make her kill his enemies, But she would fight against the brainwashing and regain control of her body, and take Charles into custody.

I don't know how you can say that Code Geass showed that Human nature was good. I believe that of all the named characters only Euphemia, Shirely, Milly and Rivalez, and perhaps a few lesser characters, never did anything evil or never were parts of teams that included evildoers. If you took Code Geass as a guide then you would have to believe that ninety percent of all adults and fifty percent of all teenagers are evil.

Humans are good most of the time, but when they are organized into groups with military potential they use that military potential against other groups far too often.

The actions people take are not inevitable. Especially not in an alternate universe story. The only scientific justification for the concept of alternate universes is the many worlds variation of quantum mechanics, and that postulates countless alternate universes branching off every second. So there should be gazillions of alternate universes branching off every second in Code Geass. The number of alternate universes in which a person chooses to do a specific action will depend on the probability that he will chose that action, and the probablity that he will chose that action can be determined by countng how many alternate universes he chooses it in.

you say that the process was evil but the end result was peace, which was good.

The process of the Britannian conquest of the world would have been evil, but the end result would have been peace, which would have been good. And I think that the Britannian peace would last a lot longer than the peace after the Zero Requiem.

Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....

I believe that almost everyone deserves to die, but that's no reason to kill almost everyone. Andy why does everyone assume that Euphemia would have been so universally hated after the Fuji Massacre? Was the Fuji Massacre worse than Cornelia's Saitema Ghetto massacre? And what about all the millions of people killed in all the wars of Emperor Charles? Didn't he surivve for years while being hated much more than Euphie? Did the Fuji Massacre make Euphie hated worse than Stalin and Genghis Khan and Tamerlane were hated ten or fifteen years before their deaths?
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sakura49 wrote:

>>i understand your point, to me princess euphie death was tragic, and she was an innocent in all of this...her intentions are good, but life goes on and those who committed crimes against others will either repent or have their comeuppance...lelouch, kallen and cc are not directly responsible for euphie death, true lelouch killed her but i think she would've prefer it then live knowing the atrocity she has committed because of geass...charles and vv are more of a criminal then lelouch, i don't like them for a lot of reason but mostly because they did not care one way or another over the death of a single girl.

>>in this show lots of people committed horrible crimes, but later on they kind of redeem themselves, and that's why i like this show because it does not show black or white, people are not clearly define, they've shades of gray, they're not totally evil, they've their own reasons.

>>before princess euphie massacred the japanese, a lot of these people were afraid of brittanians...that's why they readily agree to the proposal that princess euphie suggested, but after they witnessed euphie murdered their own people, they stood up to the brittanian government and start a riot, that's the turning point for lelouch's rebellion when he got the people support completely...and what happened to euphie is not entirely lelouch fault, he accidently geassed her, and in order to advance his plan he used the massacre to give him more power in order to be on an even footing with brittania, his power in season 2 is so much more than he has before euphie action.


Lelouch, CC, and Kallen are directly responsible for Euphemia's death, they are the team that killed her. Charles and VV just set the scene and let the actors decide what good or evil they would do. And I included them among the people that would be most likely to be executed for Euphemia's death in one of my posts. But Lelouch, CC, and Kallen are much more directly responsible for her death.

Lelouch ordered the Black Knights to kill her. If he had wanted her to survive his plan to make her shoot him he would have thought of a way to protect her. And he could have modified that way to protect her in the somewhat different circumstances of the massacre. But he didn't, so he probably came to the meeting with her expecting to kill her. And even though Euphie's massacre may have been a more important factor in Lleouch's position in the second season than I believe, Lelouch gained his increased popularity, if any, by rescuing the surviving Japanese and defeating and killing most of the Britannians at Fuji, and then leading the capture of the Tokyo settlement. Killing Euphemia was just the icing on the cake of his popularity.

I believe that Leleouch may have planned to give Euphemia additional orders to do after she shot him, so she didn't come out of her geass trance and do something to calm down the situation. He probably intended to order her to gather a bunch of Japanese prisoners near the stage to witness his miraclous resurrection, and to slaughter thousands of Japanese in the stadium and then have her men scatter thoughout the SAZ to hunt down those who fled, making the brittannians disperse and be easy targets for the Black Knights when they arrived.

And he probably ordered Euphie to shoot at him (but be sure to miss) when he rose from the "dead" and maybe shoot at the Japanese witnesses. And he may have attached cameras to the Gawain to record him shooting Euphemia as she shot at him and/or the Japanese prisoners, to use as Black knight propaganda.

When Euphemia picked up a machine gun from the ground she shot at the nightmares in front of her, despite the fact that they were armored and she would have little chance of harming their occupants. That just about proves that there were no living Japanese persons in sight in front of her and behind the nightmares, or the geass would have made her shoot at them. And when Lleouch got out of his nightmare he walked up to Euphie and past her and way from her, She turned around to look at him before he turned and shot her. Why did Lelouch walk past Euphie?

Maybe Lelouch saw living Japanese behind Euphie and walked past her to make her turn around and see them and shoot at them, so he could look good shooting her. If there were cameras on the Gawain the Japanese people might have been in sight of the cameras, making it look like Zero shot Euphie to protect the Japanese people. Or they might have been out of sight of the cameras and it would look like Zero shot Euphie after she shot at him. If Lelouch was planning that, he must have been disappointed, because Euphie didn't shoot and i didn't even hear sounds like she was trying but failing to get the machine gun to fire. Either there were no Japanese in sight or Euphie's superhuman goodness had enabled her to defeat the geass enough that it couldn't make her kill anymore.

But Kallen probably would not have let Euphemia pick up or keep that oddly convenient machine gun if any Japanese people were in sight, so it seems almost certain that there were none in sight, and that Lelouch's reasons for walking past Euphie before shooting her remain unknown.. But I'm certain that all Lelouch-lovers, and anyone who has even the slightest respect for him, will insist that there were no Japanese people behind Euphie and Lelouch did not deliberately risk their lives to make shooting her look better.

And so everybody except those who hate Lelouch the most will claim that there could not possibly be any Japanese witnesses to the shooting of Euphie. The only witnesses would be Lelouch, his partner CC, and his loyal subordinate Kallen., and possibly any hypothetical cameras that were there. So it would be perfectly possible for Lelouch to invite Euphemia to be his guest, gradually make her his prisoner, and simply tell the Black Knights that he had killed her and hidden her body, or that he didn't know what happened to her. When he took control of Tokyo and things settled down he could geass some Britannians to take a disguised Euphie back to Britannia and to someone who loved her.

Either Lelouch deliberately risked the lives of Japanese people by making Euphie turn around and see them, or else there were no Japanese witnesses and Lelouch could have secretly captured Euphemia and claimed the glory of killing her with no one to disprove his claim.

Or he could have openly kept her as hostage, as Sam Houston did with Santa Anna after San Jacento. The Japanese know that she is the girlfriend of the enemy' s best warrior and the sister of the enemy commander, so they will accept using her as hostage to gain some advantage. Or perhaps he could have tied her to the front of his Gawain, which was the most powerful weapon the Black Knights had, to protect it from any attacks by Suzaku or anyone obedient to Cornelia.

CC asked Lelouch if he geassed her to order the massacre, and he told her it was an accident. So she knew that Euphemia was innocent and helped him murder her, though Euphemia was less than a thirtieth of her age. That is like you killing a a baby a few months old. CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphie's geass command, making her cure a simple matter of negotiation for Euphemia's guardians.

Kallen was about to attack Euphemia with the weapon in the hand of the Gueren, when lleouch interrupted them. The Gueren's weapon roasts enemy pilots to death and fuses the ejections system to keep them from escaping. And she was about to use it on Euphie. When Suzaku picked up Euphie Kallen tried to stop him and he destroyed a hand of her Gueren, possibly the one with the deadly device. So she badly damaged her powerful nightmare tying to prevent an enemy from rescuing a comrade. Kallen didn't know if Euphie was already dead or only slightly wounded, so for all that she knew she was preventing her from being rescued in time for her life to be saved.

I hate Charles and VV for their roles in Euphemia's death, but Lelouch, CC, and Kallen were the team who killed her.

I say it is a lot easier to redeem your evil deeds in fiction than in real life. You say that the characters are not evil. I say that anyone who commits at least one evil deed is evil. I say that as far as I know only Euphemia, Shirley, Milly and Rivalez are not evil.

The discrediting of Euphie and her SAZ plan, the massacre, and the Black Knights rescuing the surviving Japanese, and then the capture of the Tokyo Settlement, may have been big boosts to Zero's power over the Japanese, but Euphemia's death was just icing on the cake compared to the other events of that day. It was a minor gain for Lelouch and and a major loss for the world of Code Geass. "One small step for a plotter, one giant fall for mankind".

You think that Euppie would have preferred to die after the massacre. Maybe, but if Lelouch thought that killing her might be some kind of mercy killing he could have maybe asked her first.




your response is too long, you should make it shorter so others can comment, but i already say my piece...the geass went haywire and as a result euphie caused many deaths...lelouch decides to use her in order to turn the tides in his favor by making britannia takes the blame and ultimately euphie. the japanese believe euphie and britannia orchestrated the whole things and so loss their trust in them...cc does not care one way or another since she made a contract with lelouch she would support him no matter what, but what you don't realize is lelouch feel guilt for doing what he did to euphie, and euphie was under the geass control and would go on killing the japanese, so he has no choice...i don't think she can break the geass control over her either, it was only after she got shot that the geass became weaker and she was able to resist it. kallen is half japanese, i think it makes sense for her to want to get revenge for her people; although i don't like kallen that much because she's too trusting of zero and so full of herself, but that's another point...should lelouch ask euphie before shooting her, that makes me laugh, i think it's obvious why he does not, she would say no or ask him to help her kill more japanese...the geass power is strong, it will makes others do things they would not normally do, and i think the reason nunnally was able to broke the geass power on her because the person who used it on her already dead so it has weaken.

i don't like oppression in any case, the japanese should get back their freedom, and i root for lelouch because he already gone too far to go back (causing many deaths along the way), so i want his plans to succeed.



I say that Lelouch could have simply said that he had seen Euphemia go crazy or be possessed, that she was not to blame, and that all the sane Britannians who have been corrupted by the evil Britannian government and were willing to obey massacre orders were evil. That would have done just as well to make Britannia take the blame.

You say CC doesn't care. I say she should have cared, that not caring makes her guilty of Euphemia's murder.

You say it was natural for Kallen to want revenge on her people. I say that she was part of the group that killed Euphemia and that doing what is natural is evil. Anyway, if she cared bout what was good for the Japanese she would have suggested using Euphie as a hostage to force the Britannians to stop the massacre. You can claim that Kallen was not guilty of murder because she didn't know the truth, but you can't say she wasn't part of the group that killed Euphemia.

You said that if Lllouch talked to her she would have asked him to kelp her kil the japanese. She didn talk to Lleouch and she didn't ask him to help her kill the japanese. And after talking she let second after second go by without taking any action to kil lmore Japanese. That looks to me like she was breaking free of the geas control. seconds before Lleouch shot her.

Anyway, it would have been easy to lock her up for the rest of her liffe if necessary (there are probably millions of prisoners in the world of Code Geass already) and she would have very little chance of ever killing anyone.
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Karmosin wrote:

On the contrary, I would say that Mr. Fenette's death (not sure if I spelled that right) was crucial in Shirley's development. If he hadn't died, Shirley would not have come to hate Zero, and she wouldn't have pursued his identity (eventually leading to her discovery of Lelouch's secret).

Euphemia's death was tragic and a terrible mistake on Lelouch's part. I do agree that it played a vital role in Lelouch's development and that it was necessary.



Of course Euphemia's death was necessary for the Code geass series that was actually produced. But it was not necessary to make a series that I would like. Euphie's survival was necessary for a series that I would like. And in the world of Code Geass it was an evil murder for political ends and not the leat bit necessary for any good result.

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Posted 7/13/09 , edited 7/13/09
Lulu's mother was nessary cuz if she aint died, there wuld be no rebellion
least nessacary is i dunno.
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infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....


beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.









You know what infinitycubed?
I really admire your sense of reasoning....
But because of it.... it seems that everything I said was wrong....

You said, " I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?"


During those episodes, Zero was just an emerging figure as Japanese Hero.
Do you remember Rakshata? She said something when Euphemia proclaimed the establishment of SAZ, she said (I don't exactly remember the words) "between a beloved princess and a masked rebel whose identity was known by no one, which would the people choose? tha masked man would definitely loose "
Aside from that, SAZ would definitely become a sucess because of the presence of Suzaku.

I also see the possibility that when, Zero was shot, the Japanese will go Crazy, but without Zero, will they win?


"Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch."
During the first episodes, when lelouch was trying to figure out the specs of his geass, he said to cc that not remebering the events before,during and aafter is part of his geass effect. take a look on the episode when he used geass on villetta or the others.


And regarding on the thing you said about blackmailing the emperor on going to area 11, as I have said, it is useless, why would he have to save Euphie's life if in the world he is creating, Euphie will be alive? Besides Cornelia ha no power over him or the emperor himself can persuade her into helping hin in his goal....

And another thing, there's no way the doctors would be able to hide Euphie's life in fooling Suzaku, because she died right in front of him.... And there's also no way that she would get to coma, because she was shot directly on the heart.

Oh and another thing, do you know the expression, "you cannot serve two gods at a time"?
that's why, Euphie should die because if she live then, Zero will be a subordinate which he hated the most, and if it will be Euphie to give way, the Britannia won't agree on it. Therefore, they could not work together. And, Lelouch and Nunnaly are royalties thrown away by the emperor, so there's no way of accepting them.


I can see your point, a thousand possibilities of what could've happened if Euphie didn't die, but can you think of a dramatic, regretful and hateful idea that could drive the characters as well as the viewers crazy, Better than this?


Unless you think that Lelouch overestimated the regard that the Japanese people had for him, his belief that they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury means that Zero already had as much popularity as as necessary or perhaps even possible. Unless Lelouch did not believe that they would react with suicidal rage when he was shot. Perhaps he omitted for reasons of time to tell Euphie (and thus the audience) that his orders for her would also include making the soldiers attack the crowd. If the soldiers attacked the crowd and then chased them all though the town hunting them down they would be scattered when the Black Knights arrived and would be much easier to defeat. Of course that would mean that Lelouch was deliberately planning to cause something very similar to the Fuji massacre which actually happened.

If you don't want to believe that Lelouch was that evil you must believe that he believed -- probably accurately -- that he already had all the popularity he could need. And it is true that for a while Euphemia had even more popularity with the Japanese, but once Zero made her shoot him, or once he accidentally made her order a massacre her popularity would vanish and once again Zero would be the only hope of the Japanese.

By the way, if Rakshatta said that Euphie was a beloved princess, did she mean beloved by the Japanese? If so, how did she become beloved by the Japanese? Being beloved by the Japanese would seem to be implied by the statement that she would be trusted more than Zero. Or was Euphemia already beloved by almost everyone in the world before she came to Japan, perhaps due to her leading Brittannian relief efforts at various natural disasters (since she was the only Britannian leader who cared if millions died in the aftermath of natural disasters, no doubt)? That statement certainly gives a lot to speculate about.

I say that Zero was probably at his peak as a Japanese hero during those episodes. After all, his bloody Black Rebellion failed, and some may have heard rumors that it was his fault. Then, in the second season his invasion to liberate Japan was stopped at the Second Decisive Battle of Toyko when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used and millions died. After that, I suspect that millions of Japanese came to believe that with friends like Zero, who needed enemies.

You ask if the Japanese went crazy when Zero was shot, would they win? Lelouch also told Euphemia that when the Japanese people saw him miracously revive they would know that he and not Euphemia was their true messiah. So Llelouch planned to be unconscious and seemingly dead for some period of time after Euphemia shot him and then revive and take control of the rebellion. And just exactly how Leoluch planned to do that is a subject of much speculation.

I'm certain that Lelouch did not mean to say that while someone one was controlled by a geass he would forget things that he did earlier while controlled by the geass. If a doctor was ordered to operate on and save the life of someone who he wouldn't have saved without a geass command, it would be disastrous if halfway through the operation he forgot some of the steps he had already taken. Or an engineer geassed to make complex and sophisticated adjustments to some major piece of equipment. It would be very inefficient for Euphemia to order a massacre, forget about it, then order a massacre for the second time, forget about it, order a massacre for the third time, and so on. So the fact that Euphie forgot that she ordered a massacre indicates they she very probably was totally or almost totally out of the control of the geass.

I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. I said that if Euphemia was alive, whether as prisoner in Japan or already released, it would be very unlikely for the Emperor to come to Japan since he was hated thousands of times as much as Euphie was and even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And If Euphie had been killed in the revolt the Emperor would have been thousands of times less likely to do anything as foolish as coming to Japan. A live Euphemia was absolutely necessary for Lelouch's plan to have even a tiny chance of success.

I think that doctors could fake Euphie's death in front of Suzaku by giving her a drug that made her appear dead. And perhaps that was why they dragged him away as soon as she appeared to die, to keep him from examining her closely. I hope so. But that was not what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting that Lelouch's bullet would not kill her but put her in a coma, and that would give Suzaku almost as much reason to want revenge on Lelouch And Lelouch almost as much reason to ponder whether he wanted to oppose Nunnlly as he did Euphemia. Euphie was probably not shot in the heart, since her abdomen was covered with blood but her chest had no blood on it. Being shot in the head is not necessary to cause a coma. Patients who are operated on for various reasons and given anesthesia sometimes go into comas.

And I also suggested an alternate scenario in which Lelouch would capture her, not shoot her, and she would survive the Black Rebellion and its defeat, which otherwise would be the same as in the aired episodes. Then a few months later Euphie would be attacked by vengeful Japanese assassins. And nine months later when Lelouch was deciding what course to take, there would be reports that Euphie was still in a coma from the assassination attempt.

I believe the expression is that you cannot serve two masters. Anyway polytheists can serve many gods at the same time. And again a Code geass fan makes unwarranted assumptions such as Euphemia's survival is the same thing as as the SAZ plan going into effect. Even if the SAZ plan was ruined and the massacre started Euphie could survive if LeLouch decided not to kill her or Suzaku rescued her in the nick of time, etc. etc. After agreeing to the SAZ plan Lelouch said he would not serve under Euphemia (did she boss him around when they were children? who knows?). They didn't even get around to discussing important points such as whether Lelouch and the Black Knights would continue to revolt in other regions of Japan until all of Japan was made part of the SAZ.

I say it was a bad idea to kill Euphemia for its effect on the other characters, since Euphemia was better than all the other characters combined and without her the show is just evil people fighting each other.

NO I can't think of anything that would drive the views crazy more than that, It certainly has been driving me crazy for the last eight months since i saw episode 23. I think that episodes 22 and 23 are possibly the most evil tv episodes ever. Killing Euphemia has pretty much killed my interest in anime. I don't think that i will ever watch a new anime series again until there is a new Code Geass in which Euphemia comes back to life.








I do believe that lelouch is also evil. Why? Simply because he did evil things..... But you know, being the main character, it made him much preferable to the audience. But in fairness to him, he made the world peaceful after all.

On Rakshatta, i said that i don't completely remember the words, however, it may or may not be implied. Let me ask you something, if you were in the feet of the Japanese...... Would you choose An unknown man over a well known princess who has your late prime minister's son with her. I'm pretty sure that you would choose the latter. The answer is obvious (re-watch ep. 22 and you'll get my point). And I guess that would settle your argument on your 2nd paragraph.

It is true that Lelouch planned to pretend dead, to trigger the japanese into a great rebellion, unfortunately it happened the other way. The massacre did. But even so, it happened the same way as he planned. he gained the complete power over the japanese as he proclaim himself as the savior. If you are saying that zero's popularity is at it's peak, I must disagree. It's true that the japanese will throw themslves in suicidal fury when he was shot, not because he is popular but because it would only show how cruel the britannians are. That they cannot be trusted. Zero's popularity peak was after he killed Euphie.

About the geass's specs. Please do re-watch the episodes of the season 1 and you'll get my point. Especially when he used it on Vilhetta. And as far as i could remember, there was this episode when Jerimiah and Vilhetta were talking about it. Watch those and see for yourself. We will not have to argue on this matter anymore.

"I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. "
What about this?
And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.


Isn't that what you mean when you typed it?

And why would the doctors fake Euphemia's death in front of Suzaku? It's very illogical, Schneizer and even Cornelia have no contact with her during those times. Don't tell me that the doctors will decide for it themselves? Besides, Euphie don't have to die in order to freak Suzaku out, the fact that Zero hurt her or shot her was enough reason for him to go after Zero.

And another thing, after the massacre, Euphie's name marked in a very wrong way. If you were lelouch, would you like your first love to live a life, with everyone angry on her knowing that she killed a lot of people? With Euphie's character, would she stand that?

Let's go to the polytheist, do you think that their way of serving gods is applicable to the scenario? I already said the reason why they cannot work together, just dig it.

They may all appear evil but they all share good goals.

As for Euphie's death, it drove me crazy too...... In fact, I like her character. No wonder I chose her death as the most necessary. But it is, indeed.



beginning of infinitycubed's reponse. Why isn't this in a different box?

Lelouch did not make the world peaceful in the long term. The effects of the Zero Requiem will wear off soon. And I think that the United Federation of Nations, like the League of Nations or the United nations, will largely fail to keep the peace and then disband in a few decades or centuries, because it is mostly an effort by the people and leaders of the world to fool themselves that they don't have to give up the national independence they are addicted to for the sake of the everlasting peace that it is their duty to achieve.

I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people.

If Zero's popularity was at its peak after he killed Euphie it was because Euphie and her SAZ plan were discredited and Zero seemed the only hope for the Japanese, because Zero and the Black Knights rescued the surviving Japanese at Fuji and defeated the Britannians, because Zero and the Black Knights captured Tokyo, and because Zero killed Euphie. Killing Euphie was just one small part of the process which increased his popularity. It was merely "One small step forward for a plotter, one big fall for mankind". And he should have given up that small part of his popularity to use her as a hostage to gain some material benefit. Or because she deserved to live.

I said that lleouch needed a live Euphemia, in Japan or in Britannia, to lull the Emperor into a false sense of safety so he would have even the slightest chance of coming to japan. Even if Euphemia had not been killed, the Emperor would have been stupid to come to japan, since he should have realized that even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And with her dead the chance that he would come to Japen would be much, much smaller. I said that a live Euphemie was needed to make the Emperor think it was safe to come to Japan, not to blackmail him to come to Japan.

Perhaps the doctors would fake Euphemia's death because VV pulled out his vision phone and had the Emperor give them a direct order to do so. That ought to work. When the doctors gave up on Euphie one of them said he would inform prince Sscheitzel. Perhaps he was informing Schenitzel that they were successfully faking Euphie's death. Perhaps Schenitzel, or VV, or Charles planned to hold the revived Euphemia a prisoner and taunt her about her failure to make Britannia a kinder and gentler realm.

Maybe Euphie would want to die after the massacre. But maybe she would be determined to do as much good as she possible could to win back her good name. And maybe she would want to hide somewhere for the rest of her life and hope that people would forget about her. And the Emperor might give her an important position like viceroy she would have to accept to do good for the people, despite all the unwelcome publicity she would get. And the emperor would accept the increased happiness she brought to millions of strangers in order to enjoy the increased unhappiness of Euphie, someone he knew. I say that the good of the many outweighs the good of the one, so Euphemia has to live no matter how often she wishes she was dead.

YOu say that Euphemia's death was the most necessary. I say it was perhaps the most necessary to have the Code Geass that we have, but the least necessary to have a good code Geass, or one that I would like.







. . + maybe they are running out of box........ hehehehehehe


I agree.... "the effect of Zero Requiem will wear off soon".... because there is no permanent thing here on Earth except change, right?
But on your statement: "I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people."
I must disagree.... on the storyline.... do you think that Brtiannia wants to conquer the world in order to unite all nations?
I think not.... it was clearly stated there that Charles started wars in order that CC would show up.... in order for him and VV and Marianne to start the Ragnarok Conjunction

If you don't think that it was after Euphie's death that Zero had his popularity peak.... then when was it?

VV and Charles know what was happening during those times so, it is definitely not Charles nor VV who will take action to fake Euphie's death.... Do you remember the scene on episode 23 or 22 when Charles was laughing out loud at the sword of akasha saying " You deserve to be called my child".... to whom do you think he was saying that?
While to Schneizel..... remember....there was a signal interference during those times making communication very hard. That is also the reason why the media can not cut the broadcast of the massacre.

Not because the best character died....it means that the whole story was bad.....
Can't you see, that in spite of the fact that they all did evil things in order to achieve their goals.... the story still showed that human in nature is good.....
that they are all victims of unwanted circumstances going on around them.... that the evil actions they have taken were inevitable.....
the process was evil .... but the product is peace, a matter of good

To Euphie's death......
Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....



I don't care what motive Charles had for conquest, or what motive the other Britannians had for supporting his conquests. If Charles' Ragnarok plan was foiled and the new emperor wanted to keep on conquering for whatever reasons, Britannia would keep on conquering, and possibly conquer and/or negotiate union with, the rest of the world. Thus ending war forever. .

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high, but then the Black rebellion was crushed and there may have been a lot of rumors that zero had abandoned his forces during the crisis, which should have lowered his popularity somewhat.. Then his popularity may have gradually declined as the Japanese suffered harsher rule in the year between the first and the second seasons and some blamed it on Zero for starting the Black Rebellion. So possibly Zero's popularity was no higher or even less than it was before killing Euphie.

Anyway, Zero's popularity surge at the end of the first season was largely due to rescuing the survivors of the Fuji massacre (little did they know that he had been planning to cause a similar slaughter), defeating the Britannians, and leading the capture of the Tokyo Settlement. Killing Euphemia merely caused part of his popularity surge.

A reason on for Charles to fake Euphie's death. Annoyed by her kindness and gentleness, Charles had her given super human strength, speed, and ability to recover from injuries, trained as an assassin, and brainwashed to have a second personality that would be activated by secret codes to carry out assassinations unknown to Euphie's true self. So when she was serious wounded Charles ordered the doctors to fake her death for Suzaku and had VV use the secret codes to activate her assassin personality. No doubt after she recovered Charles had the assassin personality kill various random Japanese people in front of witnesses, starting rumors that Euphie's ghost was killing people and further blackening her name. Then he kept her assassin personality in control of her body full time, since Euphie was believed dead. But she kept escaping from the control of her brainwashing and Charles had to use the secret codes to regain control of her more and more often, until he was killed. Then she escaped from her brainwashing about the time of the series ending.

And if there was an R3 Charles could reappear, having faked his own death to see what would happen, and now intent on taking the Britannian throne from Nunnally. In the final confrontation, when Charles seemed trapped, he would use the secret codes on Euphemia to make her kill his enemies, But she would fight against the brainwashing and regain control of her body, and take Charles into custody.

I don't know how you can say that Code Geass showed that Human nature was good. I believe that of all the named characters only Euphemia, Shirely, Milly and Rivalez, and perhaps a few lesser characters, never did anything evil or never were parts of teams that included evildoers. If you took Code Geass as a guide then you would have to believe that ninety percent of all adults and fifty percent of all teenagers are evil.

Humans are good most of the time, but when they are organized into groups with military potential they use that military potential against other groups far too often.

The actions people take are not inevitable. Especially not in an alternate universe story. The only scientific justification for the concept of alternate universes is the many worlds variation of quantum mechanics, and that postulates countless alternate universes branching off every second. So there should be gazillions of alternate universes branching off every second in Code Geass. The number of alternate universes in which a person chooses to do a specific action will depend on the probability that he will chose that action, and the probablity that he will chose that action can be determined by countng how many alternate universes he chooses it in.

you say that the process was evil but the end result was peace, which was good.

The process of the Britannian conquest of the world would have been evil, but the end result would have been peace, which would have been good. And I think that the Britannian peace would last a lot longer than the peace after the Zero Requiem.

Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....

I believe that almost everyone deserves to die, but that's no reason to kill almost everyone. Andy why does everyone assume that Euphemia would have been so universally hated after the Fuji Massacre? Was the Fuji Massacre worse than Cornelia's Saitema Ghetto massacre? And what about all the millions of people killed in all the wars of Emperor Charles? Didn't he surivve for years while being hated much more than Euphie? Did the Fuji Massacre make Euphie hated worse than Stalin and Genghis Khan and Tamerlane were hated ten or fifteen years before their deaths?





Do you think that through oppression or state negotiations, war could be ended forever or world peace would be achieved?
i think not....

men never stop wanting anything....

Even today....
though we are having state unions or any association or organizations or whatever thing you're gonna call it which imposes the unity of countries all over the world.... cold wars and wars do occur.....

I believe in the saying,"the only permanent thing here on earth is change". A state will not remain at peace forever....
Oppression or state union, the result it would bring will eventually wear off as time pass by....


Going back.......

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high
you already said it, Zero's popularity peak was after shooting Euphie. As far as i could remember, we are arguing about when was it, disregarding the fact if it descend or ascend.... it doesn't matter, anyway.

Regarding the story you have made....
it impressed me....
i think it would be a good catch if the R2 would be remade.

but there is one tiny problem....
Charles is no God, he can possibly do brainwashing, but the part in which he is giving Euphie extraordinary abilities.... impossible
And I cannot think of how, Euphie's character would react to that?
And what would be her contribution to the war between lelouch and schneizel?


Human Nature.....

What do you think is reason why some things are regarded evil?
My answer: It is because, people think so....

If the people of Japan think that the oppression done by the Britannians are good, would they revolt?
Everything just depends on one's state of mind or one's own point of view....

If one thinks that he is being taken advantage, he would definitely fight....
but if he thinks that he is benifitting, he would definitely support.....

no thing is really and completely evil....
Remember what Athrun had once said.... "Wars occur because men has different ways of achieving one goal"
All of us aim peace but we have different ways on how we are going to achieve it....
Men are just doing what they think is right....


And there is no man here on earth that would like he, himself to be called evil....


On your last paragraph....
it is true that Charles had survived the hatred of the people around him.... and it is because he has strong personality..... anyway, he doesn't need approval for when the Ragnarok succeed he won't need to mind them....

To Euphemia.....
I can see that you are a great fan....
But if you are to write a story.... you should consider one's character.... in order to have consistency at the story and to keep the character's pesonality solid and distinct...
As I view Euphie's character in series .... I think that she is the type of character which won't be able to stand the hatred of the person around her....
So it is better that she rest in peace
or change her character a bit and she will survive.....
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shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....


beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.









You know what infinitycubed?
I really admire your sense of reasoning....
But because of it.... it seems that everything I said was wrong....

You said, " I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?"


During those episodes, Zero was just an emerging figure as Japanese Hero.
Do you remember Rakshata? She said something when Euphemia proclaimed the establishment of SAZ, she said (I don't exactly remember the words) "between a beloved princess and a masked rebel whose identity was known by no one, which would the people choose? tha masked man would definitely loose "
Aside from that, SAZ would definitely become a sucess because of the presence of Suzaku.

I also see the possibility that when, Zero was shot, the Japanese will go Crazy, but without Zero, will they win?


"Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch."
During the first episodes, when lelouch was trying to figure out the specs of his geass, he said to cc that not remebering the events before,during and aafter is part of his geass effect. take a look on the episode when he used geass on villetta or the others.


And regarding on the thing you said about blackmailing the emperor on going to area 11, as I have said, it is useless, why would he have to save Euphie's life if in the world he is creating, Euphie will be alive? Besides Cornelia ha no power over him or the emperor himself can persuade her into helping hin in his goal....

And another thing, there's no way the doctors would be able to hide Euphie's life in fooling Suzaku, because she died right in front of him.... And there's also no way that she would get to coma, because she was shot directly on the heart.

Oh and another thing, do you know the expression, "you cannot serve two gods at a time"?
that's why, Euphie should die because if she live then, Zero will be a subordinate which he hated the most, and if it will be Euphie to give way, the Britannia won't agree on it. Therefore, they could not work together. And, Lelouch and Nunnaly are royalties thrown away by the emperor, so there's no way of accepting them.


I can see your point, a thousand possibilities of what could've happened if Euphie didn't die, but can you think of a dramatic, regretful and hateful idea that could drive the characters as well as the viewers crazy, Better than this?


Unless you think that Lelouch overestimated the regard that the Japanese people had for him, his belief that they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury means that Zero already had as much popularity as as necessary or perhaps even possible. Unless Lelouch did not believe that they would react with suicidal rage when he was shot. Perhaps he omitted for reasons of time to tell Euphie (and thus the audience) that his orders for her would also include making the soldiers attack the crowd. If the soldiers attacked the crowd and then chased them all though the town hunting them down they would be scattered when the Black Knights arrived and would be much easier to defeat. Of course that would mean that Lelouch was deliberately planning to cause something very similar to the Fuji massacre which actually happened.

If you don't want to believe that Lelouch was that evil you must believe that he believed -- probably accurately -- that he already had all the popularity he could need. And it is true that for a while Euphemia had even more popularity with the Japanese, but once Zero made her shoot him, or once he accidentally made her order a massacre her popularity would vanish and once again Zero would be the only hope of the Japanese.

By the way, if Rakshatta said that Euphie was a beloved princess, did she mean beloved by the Japanese? If so, how did she become beloved by the Japanese? Being beloved by the Japanese would seem to be implied by the statement that she would be trusted more than Zero. Or was Euphemia already beloved by almost everyone in the world before she came to Japan, perhaps due to her leading Brittannian relief efforts at various natural disasters (since she was the only Britannian leader who cared if millions died in the aftermath of natural disasters, no doubt)? That statement certainly gives a lot to speculate about.

I say that Zero was probably at his peak as a Japanese hero during those episodes. After all, his bloody Black Rebellion failed, and some may have heard rumors that it was his fault. Then, in the second season his invasion to liberate Japan was stopped at the Second Decisive Battle of Toyko when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used and millions died. After that, I suspect that millions of Japanese came to believe that with friends like Zero, who needed enemies.

You ask if the Japanese went crazy when Zero was shot, would they win? Lelouch also told Euphemia that when the Japanese people saw him miracously revive they would know that he and not Euphemia was their true messiah. So Llelouch planned to be unconscious and seemingly dead for some period of time after Euphemia shot him and then revive and take control of the rebellion. And just exactly how Leoluch planned to do that is a subject of much speculation.

I'm certain that Lelouch did not mean to say that while someone one was controlled by a geass he would forget things that he did earlier while controlled by the geass. If a doctor was ordered to operate on and save the life of someone who he wouldn't have saved without a geass command, it would be disastrous if halfway through the operation he forgot some of the steps he had already taken. Or an engineer geassed to make complex and sophisticated adjustments to some major piece of equipment. It would be very inefficient for Euphemia to order a massacre, forget about it, then order a massacre for the second time, forget about it, order a massacre for the third time, and so on. So the fact that Euphie forgot that she ordered a massacre indicates they she very probably was totally or almost totally out of the control of the geass.

I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. I said that if Euphemia was alive, whether as prisoner in Japan or already released, it would be very unlikely for the Emperor to come to Japan since he was hated thousands of times as much as Euphie was and even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And If Euphie had been killed in the revolt the Emperor would have been thousands of times less likely to do anything as foolish as coming to Japan. A live Euphemia was absolutely necessary for Lelouch's plan to have even a tiny chance of success.

I think that doctors could fake Euphie's death in front of Suzaku by giving her a drug that made her appear dead. And perhaps that was why they dragged him away as soon as she appeared to die, to keep him from examining her closely. I hope so. But that was not what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting that Lelouch's bullet would not kill her but put her in a coma, and that would give Suzaku almost as much reason to want revenge on Lelouch And Lelouch almost as much reason to ponder whether he wanted to oppose Nunnlly as he did Euphemia. Euphie was probably not shot in the heart, since her abdomen was covered with blood but her chest had no blood on it. Being shot in the head is not necessary to cause a coma. Patients who are operated on for various reasons and given anesthesia sometimes go into comas.

And I also suggested an alternate scenario in which Lelouch would capture her, not shoot her, and she would survive the Black Rebellion and its defeat, which otherwise would be the same as in the aired episodes. Then a few months later Euphie would be attacked by vengeful Japanese assassins. And nine months later when Lelouch was deciding what course to take, there would be reports that Euphie was still in a coma from the assassination attempt.

I believe the expression is that you cannot serve two masters. Anyway polytheists can serve many gods at the same time. And again a Code geass fan makes unwarranted assumptions such as Euphemia's survival is the same thing as as the SAZ plan going into effect. Even if the SAZ plan was ruined and the massacre started Euphie could survive if LeLouch decided not to kill her or Suzaku rescued her in the nick of time, etc. etc. After agreeing to the SAZ plan Lelouch said he would not serve under Euphemia (did she boss him around when they were children? who knows?). They didn't even get around to discussing important points such as whether Lelouch and the Black Knights would continue to revolt in other regions of Japan until all of Japan was made part of the SAZ.

I say it was a bad idea to kill Euphemia for its effect on the other characters, since Euphemia was better than all the other characters combined and without her the show is just evil people fighting each other.

NO I can't think of anything that would drive the views crazy more than that, It certainly has been driving me crazy for the last eight months since i saw episode 23. I think that episodes 22 and 23 are possibly the most evil tv episodes ever. Killing Euphemia has pretty much killed my interest in anime. I don't think that i will ever watch a new anime series again until there is a new Code Geass in which Euphemia comes back to life.








I do believe that lelouch is also evil. Why? Simply because he did evil things..... But you know, being the main character, it made him much preferable to the audience. But in fairness to him, he made the world peaceful after all.

On Rakshatta, i said that i don't completely remember the words, however, it may or may not be implied. Let me ask you something, if you were in the feet of the Japanese...... Would you choose An unknown man over a well known princess who has your late prime minister's son with her. I'm pretty sure that you would choose the latter. The answer is obvious (re-watch ep. 22 and you'll get my point). And I guess that would settle your argument on your 2nd paragraph.

It is true that Lelouch planned to pretend dead, to trigger the japanese into a great rebellion, unfortunately it happened the other way. The massacre did. But even so, it happened the same way as he planned. he gained the complete power over the japanese as he proclaim himself as the savior. If you are saying that zero's popularity is at it's peak, I must disagree. It's true that the japanese will throw themslves in suicidal fury when he was shot, not because he is popular but because it would only show how cruel the britannians are. That they cannot be trusted. Zero's popularity peak was after he killed Euphie.

About the geass's specs. Please do re-watch the episodes of the season 1 and you'll get my point. Especially when he used it on Vilhetta. And as far as i could remember, there was this episode when Jerimiah and Vilhetta were talking about it. Watch those and see for yourself. We will not have to argue on this matter anymore.

"I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. "
What about this?
And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.


Isn't that what you mean when you typed it?

And why would the doctors fake Euphemia's death in front of Suzaku? It's very illogical, Schneizer and even Cornelia have no contact with her during those times. Don't tell me that the doctors will decide for it themselves? Besides, Euphie don't have to die in order to freak Suzaku out, the fact that Zero hurt her or shot her was enough reason for him to go after Zero.

And another thing, after the massacre, Euphie's name marked in a very wrong way. If you were lelouch, would you like your first love to live a life, with everyone angry on her knowing that she killed a lot of people? With Euphie's character, would she stand that?

Let's go to the polytheist, do you think that their way of serving gods is applicable to the scenario? I already said the reason why they cannot work together, just dig it.

They may all appear evil but they all share good goals.

As for Euphie's death, it drove me crazy too...... In fact, I like her character. No wonder I chose her death as the most necessary. But it is, indeed.



beginning of infinitycubed's reponse. Why isn't this in a different box?

Lelouch did not make the world peaceful in the long term. The effects of the Zero Requiem will wear off soon. And I think that the United Federation of Nations, like the League of Nations or the United nations, will largely fail to keep the peace and then disband in a few decades or centuries, because it is mostly an effort by the people and leaders of the world to fool themselves that they don't have to give up the national independence they are addicted to for the sake of the everlasting peace that it is their duty to achieve.

I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people.

If Zero's popularity was at its peak after he killed Euphie it was because Euphie and her SAZ plan were discredited and Zero seemed the only hope for the Japanese, because Zero and the Black Knights rescued the surviving Japanese at Fuji and defeated the Britannians, because Zero and the Black Knights captured Tokyo, and because Zero killed Euphie. Killing Euphie was just one small part of the process which increased his popularity. It was merely "One small step forward for a plotter, one big fall for mankind". And he should have given up that small part of his popularity to use her as a hostage to gain some material benefit. Or because she deserved to live.

I said that lleouch needed a live Euphemia, in Japan or in Britannia, to lull the Emperor into a false sense of safety so he would have even the slightest chance of coming to japan. Even if Euphemia had not been killed, the Emperor would have been stupid to come to japan, since he should have realized that even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And with her dead the chance that he would come to Japen would be much, much smaller. I said that a live Euphemie was needed to make the Emperor think it was safe to come to Japan, not to blackmail him to come to Japan.

Perhaps the doctors would fake Euphemia's death because VV pulled out his vision phone and had the Emperor give them a direct order to do so. That ought to work. When the doctors gave up on Euphie one of them said he would inform prince Sscheitzel. Perhaps he was informing Schenitzel that they were successfully faking Euphie's death. Perhaps Schenitzel, or VV, or Charles planned to hold the revived Euphemia a prisoner and taunt her about her failure to make Britannia a kinder and gentler realm.

Maybe Euphie would want to die after the massacre. But maybe she would be determined to do as much good as she possible could to win back her good name. And maybe she would want to hide somewhere for the rest of her life and hope that people would forget about her. And the Emperor might give her an important position like viceroy she would have to accept to do good for the people, despite all the unwelcome publicity she would get. And the emperor would accept the increased happiness she brought to millions of strangers in order to enjoy the increased unhappiness of Euphie, someone he knew. I say that the good of the many outweighs the good of the one, so Euphemia has to live no matter how often she wishes she was dead.

YOu say that Euphemia's death was the most necessary. I say it was perhaps the most necessary to have the Code Geass that we have, but the least necessary to have a good code Geass, or one that I would like.







. . + maybe they are running out of box........ hehehehehehe


I agree.... "the effect of Zero Requiem will wear off soon".... because there is no permanent thing here on Earth except change, right?
But on your statement: "I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people."
I must disagree.... on the storyline.... do you think that Brtiannia wants to conquer the world in order to unite all nations?
I think not.... it was clearly stated there that Charles started wars in order that CC would show up.... in order for him and VV and Marianne to start the Ragnarok Conjunction

If you don't think that it was after Euphie's death that Zero had his popularity peak.... then when was it?

VV and Charles know what was happening during those times so, it is definitely not Charles nor VV who will take action to fake Euphie's death.... Do you remember the scene on episode 23 or 22 when Charles was laughing out loud at the sword of akasha saying " You deserve to be called my child".... to whom do you think he was saying that?
While to Schneizel..... remember....there was a signal interference during those times making communication very hard. That is also the reason why the media can not cut the broadcast of the massacre.

Not because the best character died....it means that the whole story was bad.....
Can't you see, that in spite of the fact that they all did evil things in order to achieve their goals.... the story still showed that human in nature is good.....
that they are all victims of unwanted circumstances going on around them.... that the evil actions they have taken were inevitable.....
the process was evil .... but the product is peace, a matter of good

To Euphie's death......
Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....



I don't care what motive Charles had for conquest, or what motive the other Britannians had for supporting his conquests. If Charles' Ragnarok plan was foiled and the new emperor wanted to keep on conquering for whatever reasons, Britannia would keep on conquering, and possibly conquer and/or negotiate union with, the rest of the world. Thus ending war forever. .

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high, but then the Black rebellion was crushed and there may have been a lot of rumors that zero had abandoned his forces during the crisis, which should have lowered his popularity somewhat.. Then his popularity may have gradually declined as the Japanese suffered harsher rule in the year between the first and the second seasons and some blamed it on Zero for starting the Black Rebellion. So possibly Zero's popularity was no higher or even less than it was before killing Euphie.

Anyway, Zero's popularity surge at the end of the first season was largely due to rescuing the survivors of the Fuji massacre (little did they know that he had been planning to cause a similar slaughter), defeating the Britannians, and leading the capture of the Tokyo Settlement. Killing Euphemia merely caused part of his popularity surge.

A reason on for Charles to fake Euphie's death. Annoyed by her kindness and gentleness, Charles had her given super human strength, speed, and ability to recover from injuries, trained as an assassin, and brainwashed to have a second personality that would be activated by secret codes to carry out assassinations unknown to Euphie's true self. So when she was serious wounded Charles ordered the doctors to fake her death for Suzaku and had VV use the secret codes to activate her assassin personality. No doubt after she recovered Charles had the assassin personality kill various random Japanese people in front of witnesses, starting rumors that Euphie's ghost was killing people and further blackening her name. Then he kept her assassin personality in control of her body full time, since Euphie was believed dead. But she kept escaping from the control of her brainwashing and Charles had to use the secret codes to regain control of her more and more often, until he was killed. Then she escaped from her brainwashing about the time of the series ending.

And if there was an R3 Charles could reappear, having faked his own death to see what would happen, and now intent on taking the Britannian throne from Nunnally. In the final confrontation, when Charles seemed trapped, he would use the secret codes on Euphemia to make her kill his enemies, But she would fight against the brainwashing and regain control of her body, and take Charles into custody.

I don't know how you can say that Code Geass showed that Human nature was good. I believe that of all the named characters only Euphemia, Shirely, Milly and Rivalez, and perhaps a few lesser characters, never did anything evil or never were parts of teams that included evildoers. If you took Code Geass as a guide then you would have to believe that ninety percent of all adults and fifty percent of all teenagers are evil.

Humans are good most of the time, but when they are organized into groups with military potential they use that military potential against other groups far too often.

The actions people take are not inevitable. Especially not in an alternate universe story. The only scientific justification for the concept of alternate universes is the many worlds variation of quantum mechanics, and that postulates countless alternate universes branching off every second. So there should be gazillions of alternate universes branching off every second in Code Geass. The number of alternate universes in which a person chooses to do a specific action will depend on the probability that he will chose that action, and the probablity that he will chose that action can be determined by countng how many alternate universes he chooses it in.

you say that the process was evil but the end result was peace, which was good.

The process of the Britannian conquest of the world would have been evil, but the end result would have been peace, which would have been good. And I think that the Britannian peace would last a lot longer than the peace after the Zero Requiem.

Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....

I believe that almost everyone deserves to die, but that's no reason to kill almost everyone. Andy why does everyone assume that Euphemia would have been so universally hated after the Fuji Massacre? Was the Fuji Massacre worse than Cornelia's Saitema Ghetto massacre? And what about all the millions of people killed in all the wars of Emperor Charles? Didn't he surivve for years while being hated much more than Euphie? Did the Fuji Massacre make Euphie hated worse than Stalin and Genghis Khan and Tamerlane were hated ten or fifteen years before their deaths?






Do you think that through oppression or state negotiations, war could be ended forever or world peace would be achieved?
i think not....

men never stop wanting anything....

Even today....
though we are having state unions or any association or organizations or whatever thing you're gonna call it which imposes the unity of countries all over the world.... cold wars and wars do occur.....

I believe in the saying,"the only permanent thing here on earth is change". A state will not remain at peace forever....
Oppression or state union, the result it would bring will eventually wear off as time pass by....


Going back.......

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high
you already said it, Zero's popularity peak was after shooting Euphie. As far as i could remember, we are arguing about when was it, disregarding the fact if it descend or ascend.... it doesn't matter, anyway.

Regarding the story you have made....
it impressed me....
i think it would be a good catch if the R2 would be remade.

but there is one tiny problem....
Charles is no God, he can possibly do brainwashing, but the part in which he is giving Euphie extraordinary abilities.... impossible
And I cannot think of how, Euphie's character would react to that?
And what would be her contribution to the war between lelouch and schneizel?


Human Nature.....

What do you think is reason why some things are regarded evil?
My answer: It is because, people think so....

If the people of Japan think that the oppression done by the Britannians are good, would they revolt?
Everything just depends on one's state of mind or one's own point of view....

If one thinks that he is being taken advantage, he would definitely fight....
but if he thinks that he is benifitting, he would definitely support.....

no thing is really and completely evil....
Remember what Athrun had once said.... "Wars occur because men has different ways of achieving one goal"
All of us aim peace but we have different ways on how we are going to achieve it....
Men are just doing what they think is right....


And there is no man here on earth that would like he, himself to be called evil....


On your last paragraph....
it is true that Charles had survived the hatred of the people around him.... and it is because he has strong personality..... anyway, he doesn't need approval for when the Ragnarok succeed he won't need to mind them....

To Euphemia.....
I can see that you are a great fan....
But if you are to write a story.... you should consider one's character.... in order to have consistency at the story and to keep the character's pesonality solid and distinct...
As I view Euphie's character in series .... I think that she is the type of character which won't be able to stand the hatred of the person around her....
So it is better that she rest in peace
or change her character a bit and she will survive.....

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