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Post Reply Who's Death was the Most Necessary and Least Necessary?
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Posted 7/18/09 , edited 7/23/09

infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....


beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.









You know what infinitycubed?
I really admire your sense of reasoning....
But because of it.... it seems that everything I said was wrong....

You said, " I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?"


During those episodes, Zero was just an emerging figure as Japanese Hero.
Do you remember Rakshata? She said something when Euphemia proclaimed the establishment of SAZ, she said (I don't exactly remember the words) "between a beloved princess and a masked rebel whose identity was known by no one, which would the people choose? tha masked man would definitely loose "
Aside from that, SAZ would definitely become a sucess because of the presence of Suzaku.

I also see the possibility that when, Zero was shot, the Japanese will go Crazy, but without Zero, will they win?


"Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch."
During the first episodes, when lelouch was trying to figure out the specs of his geass, he said to cc that not remebering the events before,during and aafter is part of his geass effect. take a look on the episode when he used geass on villetta or the others.


And regarding on the thing you said about blackmailing the emperor on going to area 11, as I have said, it is useless, why would he have to save Euphie's life if in the world he is creating, Euphie will be alive? Besides Cornelia ha no power over him or the emperor himself can persuade her into helping hin in his goal....

And another thing, there's no way the doctors would be able to hide Euphie's life in fooling Suzaku, because she died right in front of him.... And there's also no way that she would get to coma, because she was shot directly on the heart.

Oh and another thing, do you know the expression, "you cannot serve two gods at a time"?
that's why, Euphie should die because if she live then, Zero will be a subordinate which he hated the most, and if it will be Euphie to give way, the Britannia won't agree on it. Therefore, they could not work together. And, Lelouch and Nunnaly are royalties thrown away by the emperor, so there's no way of accepting them.


I can see your point, a thousand possibilities of what could've happened if Euphie didn't die, but can you think of a dramatic, regretful and hateful idea that could drive the characters as well as the viewers crazy, Better than this?


Unless you think that Lelouch overestimated the regard that the Japanese people had for him, his belief that they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury means that Zero already had as much popularity as as necessary or perhaps even possible. Unless Lelouch did not believe that they would react with suicidal rage when he was shot. Perhaps he omitted for reasons of time to tell Euphie (and thus the audience) that his orders for her would also include making the soldiers attack the crowd. If the soldiers attacked the crowd and then chased them all though the town hunting them down they would be scattered when the Black Knights arrived and would be much easier to defeat. Of course that would mean that Lelouch was deliberately planning to cause something very similar to the Fuji massacre which actually happened.

If you don't want to believe that Lelouch was that evil you must believe that he believed -- probably accurately -- that he already had all the popularity he could need. And it is true that for a while Euphemia had even more popularity with the Japanese, but once Zero made her shoot him, or once he accidentally made her order a massacre her popularity would vanish and once again Zero would be the only hope of the Japanese.

By the way, if Rakshatta said that Euphie was a beloved princess, did she mean beloved by the Japanese? If so, how did she become beloved by the Japanese? Being beloved by the Japanese would seem to be implied by the statement that she would be trusted more than Zero. Or was Euphemia already beloved by almost everyone in the world before she came to Japan, perhaps due to her leading Brittannian relief efforts at various natural disasters (since she was the only Britannian leader who cared if millions died in the aftermath of natural disasters, no doubt)? That statement certainly gives a lot to speculate about.

I say that Zero was probably at his peak as a Japanese hero during those episodes. After all, his bloody Black Rebellion failed, and some may have heard rumors that it was his fault. Then, in the second season his invasion to liberate Japan was stopped at the Second Decisive Battle of Toyko when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used and millions died. After that, I suspect that millions of Japanese came to believe that with friends like Zero, who needed enemies.

You ask if the Japanese went crazy when Zero was shot, would they win? Lelouch also told Euphemia that when the Japanese people saw him miracously revive they would know that he and not Euphemia was their true messiah. So Llelouch planned to be unconscious and seemingly dead for some period of time after Euphemia shot him and then revive and take control of the rebellion. And just exactly how Leoluch planned to do that is a subject of much speculation.

I'm certain that Lelouch did not mean to say that while someone one was controlled by a geass he would forget things that he did earlier while controlled by the geass. If a doctor was ordered to operate on and save the life of someone who he wouldn't have saved without a geass command, it would be disastrous if halfway through the operation he forgot some of the steps he had already taken. Or an engineer geassed to make complex and sophisticated adjustments to some major piece of equipment. It would be very inefficient for Euphemia to order a massacre, forget about it, then order a massacre for the second time, forget about it, order a massacre for the third time, and so on. So the fact that Euphie forgot that she ordered a massacre indicates they she very probably was totally or almost totally out of the control of the geass.

I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. I said that if Euphemia was alive, whether as prisoner in Japan or already released, it would be very unlikely for the Emperor to come to Japan since he was hated thousands of times as much as Euphie was and even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And If Euphie had been killed in the revolt the Emperor would have been thousands of times less likely to do anything as foolish as coming to Japan. A live Euphemia was absolutely necessary for Lelouch's plan to have even a tiny chance of success.

I think that doctors could fake Euphie's death in front of Suzaku by giving her a drug that made her appear dead. And perhaps that was why they dragged him away as soon as she appeared to die, to keep him from examining her closely. I hope so. But that was not what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting that Lelouch's bullet would not kill her but put her in a coma, and that would give Suzaku almost as much reason to want revenge on Lelouch And Lelouch almost as much reason to ponder whether he wanted to oppose Nunnlly as he did Euphemia. Euphie was probably not shot in the heart, since her abdomen was covered with blood but her chest had no blood on it. Being shot in the head is not necessary to cause a coma. Patients who are operated on for various reasons and given anesthesia sometimes go into comas.

And I also suggested an alternate scenario in which Lelouch would capture her, not shoot her, and she would survive the Black Rebellion and its defeat, which otherwise would be the same as in the aired episodes. Then a few months later Euphie would be attacked by vengeful Japanese assassins. And nine months later when Lelouch was deciding what course to take, there would be reports that Euphie was still in a coma from the assassination attempt.

I believe the expression is that you cannot serve two masters. Anyway polytheists can serve many gods at the same time. And again a Code geass fan makes unwarranted assumptions such as Euphemia's survival is the same thing as as the SAZ plan going into effect. Even if the SAZ plan was ruined and the massacre started Euphie could survive if LeLouch decided not to kill her or Suzaku rescued her in the nick of time, etc. etc. After agreeing to the SAZ plan Lelouch said he would not serve under Euphemia (did she boss him around when they were children? who knows?). They didn't even get around to discussing important points such as whether Lelouch and the Black Knights would continue to revolt in other regions of Japan until all of Japan was made part of the SAZ.

I say it was a bad idea to kill Euphemia for its effect on the other characters, since Euphemia was better than all the other characters combined and without her the show is just evil people fighting each other.

NO I can't think of anything that would drive the views crazy more than that, It certainly has been driving me crazy for the last eight months since i saw episode 23. I think that episodes 22 and 23 are possibly the most evil tv episodes ever. Killing Euphemia has pretty much killed my interest in anime. I don't think that i will ever watch a new anime series again until there is a new Code Geass in which Euphemia comes back to life.








I do believe that lelouch is also evil. Why? Simply because he did evil things..... But you know, being the main character, it made him much preferable to the audience. But in fairness to him, he made the world peaceful after all.

On Rakshatta, i said that i don't completely remember the words, however, it may or may not be implied. Let me ask you something, if you were in the feet of the Japanese...... Would you choose An unknown man over a well known princess who has your late prime minister's son with her. I'm pretty sure that you would choose the latter. The answer is obvious (re-watch ep. 22 and you'll get my point). And I guess that would settle your argument on your 2nd paragraph.

It is true that Lelouch planned to pretend dead, to trigger the japanese into a great rebellion, unfortunately it happened the other way. The massacre did. But even so, it happened the same way as he planned. he gained the complete power over the japanese as he proclaim himself as the savior. If you are saying that zero's popularity is at it's peak, I must disagree. It's true that the japanese will throw themslves in suicidal fury when he was shot, not because he is popular but because it would only show how cruel the britannians are. That they cannot be trusted. Zero's popularity peak was after he killed Euphie.

About the geass's specs. Please do re-watch the episodes of the season 1 and you'll get my point. Especially when he used it on Vilhetta. And as far as i could remember, there was this episode when Jerimiah and Vilhetta were talking about it. Watch those and see for yourself. We will not have to argue on this matter anymore.

"I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. "
What about this?
And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.


Isn't that what you mean when you typed it?

And why would the doctors fake Euphemia's death in front of Suzaku? It's very illogical, Schneizer and even Cornelia have no contact with her during those times. Don't tell me that the doctors will decide for it themselves? Besides, Euphie don't have to die in order to freak Suzaku out, the fact that Zero hurt her or shot her was enough reason for him to go after Zero.

And another thing, after the massacre, Euphie's name marked in a very wrong way. If you were lelouch, would you like your first love to live a life, with everyone angry on her knowing that she killed a lot of people? With Euphie's character, would she stand that?

Let's go to the polytheist, do you think that their way of serving gods is applicable to the scenario? I already said the reason why they cannot work together, just dig it.

They may all appear evil but they all share good goals.

As for Euphie's death, it drove me crazy too...... In fact, I like her character. No wonder I chose her death as the most necessary. But it is, indeed.



beginning of infinitycubed's reponse. Why isn't this in a different box?

Lelouch did not make the world peaceful in the long term. The effects of the Zero Requiem will wear off soon. And I think that the United Federation of Nations, like the League of Nations or the United nations, will largely fail to keep the peace and then disband in a few decades or centuries, because it is mostly an effort by the people and leaders of the world to fool themselves that they don't have to give up the national independence they are addicted to for the sake of the everlasting peace that it is their duty to achieve.

I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people.

If Zero's popularity was at its peak after he killed Euphie it was because Euphie and her SAZ plan were discredited and Zero seemed the only hope for the Japanese, because Zero and the Black Knights rescued the surviving Japanese at Fuji and defeated the Britannians, because Zero and the Black Knights captured Tokyo, and because Zero killed Euphie. Killing Euphie was just one small part of the process which increased his popularity. It was merely "One small step forward for a plotter, one big fall for mankind". And he should have given up that small part of his popularity to use her as a hostage to gain some material benefit. Or because she deserved to live.

I said that lleouch needed a live Euphemia, in Japan or in Britannia, to lull the Emperor into a false sense of safety so he would have even the slightest chance of coming to japan. Even if Euphemia had not been killed, the Emperor would have been stupid to come to japan, since he should have realized that even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And with her dead the chance that he would come to Japen would be much, much smaller. I said that a live Euphemie was needed to make the Emperor think it was safe to come to Japan, not to blackmail him to come to Japan.

Perhaps the doctors would fake Euphemia's death because VV pulled out his vision phone and had the Emperor give them a direct order to do so. That ought to work. When the doctors gave up on Euphie one of them said he would inform prince Sscheitzel. Perhaps he was informing Schenitzel that they were successfully faking Euphie's death. Perhaps Schenitzel, or VV, or Charles planned to hold the revived Euphemia a prisoner and taunt her about her failure to make Britannia a kinder and gentler realm.

Maybe Euphie would want to die after the massacre. But maybe she would be determined to do as much good as she possible could to win back her good name. And maybe she would want to hide somewhere for the rest of her life and hope that people would forget about her. And the Emperor might give her an important position like viceroy she would have to accept to do good for the people, despite all the unwelcome publicity she would get. And the emperor would accept the increased happiness she brought to millions of strangers in order to enjoy the increased unhappiness of Euphie, someone he knew. I say that the good of the many outweighs the good of the one, so Euphemia has to live no matter how often she wishes she was dead.

YOu say that Euphemia's death was the most necessary. I say it was perhaps the most necessary to have the Code Geass that we have, but the least necessary to have a good code Geass, or one that I would like.







. . + maybe they are running out of box........ hehehehehehe


I agree.... "the effect of Zero Requiem will wear off soon".... because there is no permanent thing here on Earth except change, right?
But on your statement: "I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people."
I must disagree.... on the storyline.... do you think that Brtiannia wants to conquer the world in order to unite all nations?
I think not.... it was clearly stated there that Charles started wars in order that CC would show up.... in order for him and VV and Marianne to start the Ragnarok Conjunction

If you don't think that it was after Euphie's death that Zero had his popularity peak.... then when was it?

VV and Charles know what was happening during those times so, it is definitely not Charles nor VV who will take action to fake Euphie's death.... Do you remember the scene on episode 23 or 22 when Charles was laughing out loud at the sword of akasha saying " You deserve to be called my child".... to whom do you think he was saying that?
While to Schneizel..... remember....there was a signal interference during those times making communication very hard. That is also the reason why the media can not cut the broadcast of the massacre.

Not because the best character died....it means that the whole story was bad.....
Can't you see, that in spite of the fact that they all did evil things in order to achieve their goals.... the story still showed that human in nature is good.....
that they are all victims of unwanted circumstances going on around them.... that the evil actions they have taken were inevitable.....
the process was evil .... but the product is peace, a matter of good

To Euphie's death......
Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....



I don't care what motive Charles had for conquest, or what motive the other Britannians had for supporting his conquests. If Charles' Ragnarok plan was foiled and the new emperor wanted to keep on conquering for whatever reasons, Britannia would keep on conquering, and possibly conquer and/or negotiate union with, the rest of the world. Thus ending war forever. .

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high, but then the Black rebellion was crushed and there may have been a lot of rumors that zero had abandoned his forces during the crisis, which should have lowered his popularity somewhat.. Then his popularity may have gradually declined as the Japanese suffered harsher rule in the year between the first and the second seasons and some blamed it on Zero for starting the Black Rebellion. So possibly Zero's popularity was no higher or even less than it was before killing Euphie.

Anyway, Zero's popularity surge at the end of the first season was largely due to rescuing the survivors of the Fuji massacre (little did they know that he had been planning to cause a similar slaughter), defeating the Britannians, and leading the capture of the Tokyo Settlement. Killing Euphemia merely caused part of his popularity surge.

A reason on for Charles to fake Euphie's death. Annoyed by her kindness and gentleness, Charles had her given super human strength, speed, and ability to recover from injuries, trained as an assassin, and brainwashed to have a second personality that would be activated by secret codes to carry out assassinations unknown to Euphie's true self. So when she was serious wounded Charles ordered the doctors to fake her death for Suzaku and had VV use the secret codes to activate her assassin personality. No doubt after she recovered Charles had the assassin personality kill various random Japanese people in front of witnesses, starting rumors that Euphie's ghost was killing people and further blackening her name. Then he kept her assassin personality in control of her body full time, since Euphie was believed dead. But she kept escaping from the control of her brainwashing and Charles had to use the secret codes to regain control of her more and more often, until he was killed. Then she escaped from her brainwashing about the time of the series ending.

And if there was an R3 Charles could reappear, having faked his own death to see what would happen, and now intent on taking the Britannian throne from Nunnally. In the final confrontation, when Charles seemed trapped, he would use the secret codes on Euphemia to make her kill his enemies, But she would fight against the brainwashing and regain control of her body, and take Charles into custody.

I don't know how you can say that Code Geass showed that Human nature was good. I believe that of all the named characters only Euphemia, Shirely, Milly and Rivalez, and perhaps a few lesser characters, never did anything evil or never were parts of teams that included evildoers. If you took Code Geass as a guide then you would have to believe that ninety percent of all adults and fifty percent of all teenagers are evil.

Humans are good most of the time, but when they are organized into groups with military potential they use that military potential against other groups far too often.

The actions people take are not inevitable. Especially not in an alternate universe story. The only scientific justification for the concept of alternate universes is the many worlds variation of quantum mechanics, and that postulates countless alternate universes branching off every second. So there should be gazillions of alternate universes branching off every second in Code Geass. The number of alternate universes in which a person chooses to do a specific action will depend on the probability that he will chose that action, and the probablity that he will chose that action can be determined by countng how many alternate universes he chooses it in.

you say that the process was evil but the end result was peace, which was good.

The process of the Britannian conquest of the world would have been evil, but the end result would have been peace, which would have been good. And I think that the Britannian peace would last a lot longer than the peace after the Zero Requiem.

Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....

I believe that almost everyone deserves to die, but that's no reason to kill almost everyone. Andy why does everyone assume that Euphemia would have been so universally hated after the Fuji Massacre? Was the Fuji Massacre worse than Cornelia's Saitema Ghetto massacre? And what about all the millions of people killed in all the wars of Emperor Charles? Didn't he surivve for years while being hated much more than Euphie? Did the Fuji Massacre make Euphie hated worse than Stalin and Genghis Khan and Tamerlane were hated ten or fifteen years before their deaths?






Do you think that through oppression or state negotiations, war could be ended forever or world peace would be achieved?
i think not....

men never stop wanting anything....

Even today....
though we are having state unions or any association or organizations or whatever thing you're gonna call it which imposes the unity of countries all over the world.... cold wars and wars do occur.....

I believe in the saying,"the only permanent thing here on earth is change". A state will not remain at peace forever....
Oppression or state union, the result it would bring will eventually wear off as time pass by....


Going back.......

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high
you already said it, Zero's popularity peak was after shooting Euphie. As far as i could remember, we are arguing about when was it, disregarding the fact if it descend or ascend.... it doesn't matter, anyway.

Regarding the story you have made....
it impressed me....
i think it would be a good catch if the R2 would be remade.

but there is one tiny problem....
Charles is no God, he can possibly do brainwashing, but the part in which he is giving Euphie extraordinary abilities.... impossible
And I cannot think of how, Euphie's character would react to that?
And what would be her contribution to the war between lelouch and schneizel?


Human Nature.....

What do you think is reason why some things are regarded evil?
My answer: It is because, people think so....

If the people of Japan think that the oppression done by the Britannians are good, would they revolt?
Everything just depends on one's state of mind or one's own point of view....

If one thinks that he is being taken advantage, he would definitely fight....
but if he thinks that he is benifitting, he would definitely support.....

no thing is really and completely evil....
Remember what Athrun had once said.... "Wars occur because men has different ways of achieving one goal"
All of us aim peace but we have different ways on how we are going to achieve it....
Men are just doing what they think is right....


And there is no man here on earth that would like he, himself to be called evil....


On your last paragraph....
it is true that Charles had survived the hatred of the people around him.... and it is because he has strong personality..... anyway, he doesn't need approval for when the Ragnarok succeed he won't need to mind them....

To Euphemia.....
I can see that you are a great fan....
But if you are to write a story.... you should consider one's character.... in order to have consistency at the story and to keep the character's pesonality solid and distinct...
As I view Euphie's character in series .... I think that she is the type of character which won't be able to stand the hatred of the person around her....
So it is better that she rest in peace
or change her character a bit and she will survive.....




Arrgh! I worked for hours on a reply and now i think that I lost it! Censored! Censored! I have to go to bed
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Posted 7/19/09 , edited 7/21/09

infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....


beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.









You know what infinitycubed?
I really admire your sense of reasoning....
But because of it.... it seems that everything I said was wrong....

You said, " I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?"


During those episodes, Zero was just an emerging figure as Japanese Hero.
Do you remember Rakshata? She said something when Euphemia proclaimed the establishment of SAZ, she said (I don't exactly remember the words) "between a beloved princess and a masked rebel whose identity was known by no one, which would the people choose? tha masked man would definitely loose "
Aside from that, SAZ would definitely become a sucess because of the presence of Suzaku.

I also see the possibility that when, Zero was shot, the Japanese will go Crazy, but without Zero, will they win?


"Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch."
During the first episodes, when lelouch was trying to figure out the specs of his geass, he said to cc that not remebering the events before,during and aafter is part of his geass effect. take a look on the episode when he used geass on villetta or the others.


And regarding on the thing you said about blackmailing the emperor on going to area 11, as I have said, it is useless, why would he have to save Euphie's life if in the world he is creating, Euphie will be alive? Besides Cornelia ha no power over him or the emperor himself can persuade her into helping hin in his goal....

And another thing, there's no way the doctors would be able to hide Euphie's life in fooling Suzaku, because she died right in front of him.... And there's also no way that she would get to coma, because she was shot directly on the heart.

Oh and another thing, do you know the expression, "you cannot serve two gods at a time"?
that's why, Euphie should die because if she live then, Zero will be a subordinate which he hated the most, and if it will be Euphie to give way, the Britannia won't agree on it. Therefore, they could not work together. And, Lelouch and Nunnaly are royalties thrown away by the emperor, so there's no way of accepting them.


I can see your point, a thousand possibilities of what could've happened if Euphie didn't die, but can you think of a dramatic, regretful and hateful idea that could drive the characters as well as the viewers crazy, Better than this?


Unless you think that Lelouch overestimated the regard that the Japanese people had for him, his belief that they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury means that Zero already had as much popularity as as necessary or perhaps even possible. Unless Lelouch did not believe that they would react with suicidal rage when he was shot. Perhaps he omitted for reasons of time to tell Euphie (and thus the audience) that his orders for her would also include making the soldiers attack the crowd. If the soldiers attacked the crowd and then chased them all though the town hunting them down they would be scattered when the Black Knights arrived and would be much easier to defeat. Of course that would mean that Lelouch was deliberately planning to cause something very similar to the Fuji massacre which actually happened.

If you don't want to believe that Lelouch was that evil you must believe that he believed -- probably accurately -- that he already had all the popularity he could need. And it is true that for a while Euphemia had even more popularity with the Japanese, but once Zero made her shoot him, or once he accidentally made her order a massacre her popularity would vanish and once again Zero would be the only hope of the Japanese.

By the way, if Rakshatta said that Euphie was a beloved princess, did she mean beloved by the Japanese? If so, how did she become beloved by the Japanese? Being beloved by the Japanese would seem to be implied by the statement that she would be trusted more than Zero. Or was Euphemia already beloved by almost everyone in the world before she came to Japan, perhaps due to her leading Brittannian relief efforts at various natural disasters (since she was the only Britannian leader who cared if millions died in the aftermath of natural disasters, no doubt)? That statement certainly gives a lot to speculate about.

I say that Zero was probably at his peak as a Japanese hero during those episodes. After all, his bloody Black Rebellion failed, and some may have heard rumors that it was his fault. Then, in the second season his invasion to liberate Japan was stopped at the Second Decisive Battle of Toyko when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used and millions died. After that, I suspect that millions of Japanese came to believe that with friends like Zero, who needed enemies.

You ask if the Japanese went crazy when Zero was shot, would they win? Lelouch also told Euphemia that when the Japanese people saw him miracously revive they would know that he and not Euphemia was their true messiah. So Llelouch planned to be unconscious and seemingly dead for some period of time after Euphemia shot him and then revive and take control of the rebellion. And just exactly how Leoluch planned to do that is a subject of much speculation.

I'm certain that Lelouch did not mean to say that while someone one was controlled by a geass he would forget things that he did earlier while controlled by the geass. If a doctor was ordered to operate on and save the life of someone who he wouldn't have saved without a geass command, it would be disastrous if halfway through the operation he forgot some of the steps he had already taken. Or an engineer geassed to make complex and sophisticated adjustments to some major piece of equipment. It would be very inefficient for Euphemia to order a massacre, forget about it, then order a massacre for the second time, forget about it, order a massacre for the third time, and so on. So the fact that Euphie forgot that she ordered a massacre indicates they she very probably was totally or almost totally out of the control of the geass.

I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. I said that if Euphemia was alive, whether as prisoner in Japan or already released, it would be very unlikely for the Emperor to come to Japan since he was hated thousands of times as much as Euphie was and even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And If Euphie had been killed in the revolt the Emperor would have been thousands of times less likely to do anything as foolish as coming to Japan. A live Euphemia was absolutely necessary for Lelouch's plan to have even a tiny chance of success.

I think that doctors could fake Euphie's death in front of Suzaku by giving her a drug that made her appear dead. And perhaps that was why they dragged him away as soon as she appeared to die, to keep him from examining her closely. I hope so. But that was not what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting that Lelouch's bullet would not kill her but put her in a coma, and that would give Suzaku almost as much reason to want revenge on Lelouch And Lelouch almost as much reason to ponder whether he wanted to oppose Nunnlly as he did Euphemia. Euphie was probably not shot in the heart, since her abdomen was covered with blood but her chest had no blood on it. Being shot in the head is not necessary to cause a coma. Patients who are operated on for various reasons and given anesthesia sometimes go into comas.

And I also suggested an alternate scenario in which Lelouch would capture her, not shoot her, and she would survive the Black Rebellion and its defeat, which otherwise would be the same as in the aired episodes. Then a few months later Euphie would be attacked by vengeful Japanese assassins. And nine months later when Lelouch was deciding what course to take, there would be reports that Euphie was still in a coma from the assassination attempt.

I believe the expression is that you cannot serve two masters. Anyway polytheists can serve many gods at the same time. And again a Code geass fan makes unwarranted assumptions such as Euphemia's survival is the same thing as as the SAZ plan going into effect. Even if the SAZ plan was ruined and the massacre started Euphie could survive if LeLouch decided not to kill her or Suzaku rescued her in the nick of time, etc. etc. After agreeing to the SAZ plan Lelouch said he would not serve under Euphemia (did she boss him around when they were children? who knows?). They didn't even get around to discussing important points such as whether Lelouch and the Black Knights would continue to revolt in other regions of Japan until all of Japan was made part of the SAZ.

I say it was a bad idea to kill Euphemia for its effect on the other characters, since Euphemia was better than all the other characters combined and without her the show is just evil people fighting each other.

NO I can't think of anything that would drive the views crazy more than that, It certainly has been driving me crazy for the last eight months since i saw episode 23. I think that episodes 22 and 23 are possibly the most evil tv episodes ever. Killing Euphemia has pretty much killed my interest in anime. I don't think that i will ever watch a new anime series again until there is a new Code Geass in which Euphemia comes back to life.








I do believe that lelouch is also evil. Why? Simply because he did evil things..... But you know, being the main character, it made him much preferable to the audience. But in fairness to him, he made the world peaceful after all.

On Rakshatta, i said that i don't completely remember the words, however, it may or may not be implied. Let me ask you something, if you were in the feet of the Japanese...... Would you choose An unknown man over a well known princess who has your late prime minister's son with her. I'm pretty sure that you would choose the latter. The answer is obvious (re-watch ep. 22 and you'll get my point). And I guess that would settle your argument on your 2nd paragraph.

It is true that Lelouch planned to pretend dead, to trigger the japanese into a great rebellion, unfortunately it happened the other way. The massacre did. But even so, it happened the same way as he planned. he gained the complete power over the japanese as he proclaim himself as the savior. If you are saying that zero's popularity is at it's peak, I must disagree. It's true that the japanese will throw themslves in suicidal fury when he was shot, not because he is popular but because it would only show how cruel the britannians are. That they cannot be trusted. Zero's popularity peak was after he killed Euphie.

About the geass's specs. Please do re-watch the episodes of the season 1 and you'll get my point. Especially when he used it on Vilhetta. And as far as i could remember, there was this episode when Jerimiah and Vilhetta were talking about it. Watch those and see for yourself. We will not have to argue on this matter anymore.

"I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. "
What about this?
And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.


Isn't that what you mean when you typed it?

And why would the doctors fake Euphemia's death in front of Suzaku? It's very illogical, Schneizer and even Cornelia have no contact with her during those times. Don't tell me that the doctors will decide for it themselves? Besides, Euphie don't have to die in order to freak Suzaku out, the fact that Zero hurt her or shot her was enough reason for him to go after Zero.

And another thing, after the massacre, Euphie's name marked in a very wrong way. If you were lelouch, would you like your first love to live a life, with everyone angry on her knowing that she killed a lot of people? With Euphie's character, would she stand that?

Let's go to the polytheist, do you think that their way of serving gods is applicable to the scenario? I already said the reason why they cannot work together, just dig it.

They may all appear evil but they all share good goals.

As for Euphie's death, it drove me crazy too...... In fact, I like her character. No wonder I chose her death as the most necessary. But it is, indeed.



beginning of infinitycubed's reponse. Why isn't this in a different box?

Lelouch did not make the world peaceful in the long term. The effects of the Zero Requiem will wear off soon. And I think that the United Federation of Nations, like the League of Nations or the United nations, will largely fail to keep the peace and then disband in a few decades or centuries, because it is mostly an effort by the people and leaders of the world to fool themselves that they don't have to give up the national independence they are addicted to for the sake of the everlasting peace that it is their duty to achieve.

I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people.

If Zero's popularity was at its peak after he killed Euphie it was because Euphie and her SAZ plan were discredited and Zero seemed the only hope for the Japanese, because Zero and the Black Knights rescued the surviving Japanese at Fuji and defeated the Britannians, because Zero and the Black Knights captured Tokyo, and because Zero killed Euphie. Killing Euphie was just one small part of the process which increased his popularity. It was merely "One small step forward for a plotter, one big fall for mankind". And he should have given up that small part of his popularity to use her as a hostage to gain some material benefit. Or because she deserved to live.

I said that lleouch needed a live Euphemia, in Japan or in Britannia, to lull the Emperor into a false sense of safety so he would have even the slightest chance of coming to japan. Even if Euphemia had not been killed, the Emperor would have been stupid to come to japan, since he should have realized that even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And with her dead the chance that he would come to Japen would be much, much smaller. I said that a live Euphemie was needed to make the Emperor think it was safe to come to Japan, not to blackmail him to come to Japan.

Perhaps the doctors would fake Euphemia's death because VV pulled out his vision phone and had the Emperor give them a direct order to do so. That ought to work. When the doctors gave up on Euphie one of them said he would inform prince Sscheitzel. Perhaps he was informing Schenitzel that they were successfully faking Euphie's death. Perhaps Schenitzel, or VV, or Charles planned to hold the revived Euphemia a prisoner and taunt her about her failure to make Britannia a kinder and gentler realm.

Maybe Euphie would want to die after the massacre. But maybe she would be determined to do as much good as she possible could to win back her good name. And maybe she would want to hide somewhere for the rest of her life and hope that people would forget about her. And the Emperor might give her an important position like viceroy she would have to accept to do good for the people, despite all the unwelcome publicity she would get. And the emperor would accept the increased happiness she brought to millions of strangers in order to enjoy the increased unhappiness of Euphie, someone he knew. I say that the good of the many outweighs the good of the one, so Euphemia has to live no matter how often she wishes she was dead.

YOu say that Euphemia's death was the most necessary. I say it was perhaps the most necessary to have the Code Geass that we have, but the least necessary to have a good code Geass, or one that I would like.







. . + maybe they are running out of box........ hehehehehehe


I agree.... "the effect of Zero Requiem will wear off soon".... because there is no permanent thing here on Earth except change, right?
But on your statement: "I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people."
I must disagree.... on the storyline.... do you think that Brtiannia wants to conquer the world in order to unite all nations?
I think not.... it was clearly stated there that Charles started wars in order that CC would show up.... in order for him and VV and Marianne to start the Ragnarok Conjunction

If you don't think that it was after Euphie's death that Zero had his popularity peak.... then when was it?

VV and Charles know what was happening during those times so, it is definitely not Charles nor VV who will take action to fake Euphie's death.... Do you remember the scene on episode 23 or 22 when Charles was laughing out loud at the sword of akasha saying " You deserve to be called my child".... to whom do you think he was saying that?
While to Schneizel..... remember....there was a signal interference during those times making communication very hard. That is also the reason why the media can not cut the broadcast of the massacre.

Not because the best character died....it means that the whole story was bad.....
Can't you see, that in spite of the fact that they all did evil things in order to achieve their goals.... the story still showed that human in nature is good.....
that they are all victims of unwanted circumstances going on around them.... that the evil actions they have taken were inevitable.....
the process was evil .... but the product is peace, a matter of good

To Euphie's death......
Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....



I don't care what motive Charles had for conquest, or what motive the other Britannians had for supporting his conquests. If Charles' Ragnarok plan was foiled and the new emperor wanted to keep on conquering for whatever reasons, Britannia would keep on conquering, and possibly conquer and/or negotiate union with, the rest of the world. Thus ending war forever. .

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high, but then the Black rebellion was crushed and there may have been a lot of rumors that zero had abandoned his forces during the crisis, which should have lowered his popularity somewhat.. Then his popularity may have gradually declined as the Japanese suffered harsher rule in the year between the first and the second seasons and some blamed it on Zero for starting the Black Rebellion. So possibly Zero's popularity was no higher or even less than it was before killing Euphie.

Anyway, Zero's popularity surge at the end of the first season was largely due to rescuing the survivors of the Fuji massacre (little did they know that he had been planning to cause a similar slaughter), defeating the Britannians, and leading the capture of the Tokyo Settlement. Killing Euphemia merely caused part of his popularity surge.

A reason on for Charles to fake Euphie's death. Annoyed by her kindness and gentleness, Charles had her given super human strength, speed, and ability to recover from injuries, trained as an assassin, and brainwashed to have a second personality that would be activated by secret codes to carry out assassinations unknown to Euphie's true self. So when she was serious wounded Charles ordered the doctors to fake her death for Suzaku and had VV use the secret codes to activate her assassin personality. No doubt after she recovered Charles had the assassin personality kill various random Japanese people in front of witnesses, starting rumors that Euphie's ghost was killing people and further blackening her name. Then he kept her assassin personality in control of her body full time, since Euphie was believed dead. But she kept escaping from the control of her brainwashing and Charles had to use the secret codes to regain control of her more and more often, until he was killed. Then she escaped from her brainwashing about the time of the series ending.

And if there was an R3 Charles could reappear, having faked his own death to see what would happen, and now intent on taking the Britannian throne from Nunnally. In the final confrontation, when Charles seemed trapped, he would use the secret codes on Euphemia to make her kill his enemies, But she would fight against the brainwashing and regain control of her body, and take Charles into custody.

I don't know how you can say that Code Geass showed that Human nature was good. I believe that of all the named characters only Euphemia, Shirely, Milly and Rivalez, and perhaps a few lesser characters, never did anything evil or never were parts of teams that included evildoers. If you took Code Geass as a guide then you would have to believe that ninety percent of all adults and fifty percent of all teenagers are evil.

Humans are good most of the time, but when they are organized into groups with military potential they use that military potential against other groups far too often.

The actions people take are not inevitable. Especially not in an alternate universe story. The only scientific justification for the concept of alternate universes is the many worlds variation of quantum mechanics, and that postulates countless alternate universes branching off every second. So there should be gazillions of alternate universes branching off every second in Code Geass. The number of alternate universes in which a person chooses to do a specific action will depend on the probability that he will chose that action, and the probablity that he will chose that action can be determined by countng how many alternate universes he chooses it in.

you say that the process was evil but the end result was peace, which was good.

The process of the Britannian conquest of the world would have been evil, but the end result would have been peace, which would have been good. And I think that the Britannian peace would last a lot longer than the peace after the Zero Requiem.

Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....

I believe that almost everyone deserves to die, but that's no reason to kill almost everyone. Andy why does everyone assume that Euphemia would have been so universally hated after the Fuji Massacre? Was the Fuji Massacre worse than Cornelia's Saitema Ghetto massacre? And what about all the millions of people killed in all the wars of Emperor Charles? Didn't he surivve for years while being hated much more than Euphie? Did the Fuji Massacre make Euphie hated worse than Stalin and Genghis Khan and Tamerlane were hated ten or fifteen years before their deaths?






Do you think that through oppression or state negotiations, war could be ended forever or world peace would be achieved?
i think not....

men never stop wanting anything....

Even today....
though we are having state unions or any association or organizations or whatever thing you're gonna call it which imposes the unity of countries all over the world.... cold wars and wars do occur.....

I believe in the saying,"the only permanent thing here on earth is change". A state will not remain at peace forever....
Oppression or state union, the result it would bring will eventually wear off as time pass by....


Going back.......

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high
you already said it, Zero's popularity peak was after shooting Euphie. As far as i could remember, we are arguing about when was it, disregarding the fact if it descend or ascend.... it doesn't matter, anyway.

Regarding the story you have made....
it impressed me....
i think it would be a good catch if the R2 would be remade.

but there is one tiny problem....
Charles is no God, he can possibly do brainwashing, but the part in which he is giving Euphie extraordinary abilities.... impossible
And I cannot think of how, Euphie's character would react to that?
And what would be her contribution to the war between lelouch and schneizel?


Human Nature.....

What do you think is reason why some things are regarded evil?
My answer: It is because, people think so....

If the people of Japan think that the oppression done by the Britannians are good, would they revolt?
Everything just depends on one's state of mind or one's own point of view....

If one thinks that he is being taken advantage, he would definitely fight....
but if he thinks that he is benifitting, he would definitely support.....

no thing is really and completely evil....
Remember what Athrun had once said.... "Wars occur because men has different ways of achieving one goal"
All of us aim peace but we have different ways on how we are going to achieve it....
Men are just doing what they think is right....


And there is no man here on earth that would like he, himself to be called evil....


On your last paragraph....
it is true that Charles had survived the hatred of the people around him.... and it is because he has strong personality..... anyway, he doesn't need approval for when the Ragnarok succeed he won't need to mind them....

To Euphemia.....
I can see that you are a great fan....
But if you are to write a story.... you should consider one's character.... in order to have consistency at the story and to keep the character's pesonality solid and distinct...
As I view Euphie's character in series .... I think that she is the type of character which won't be able to stand the hatred of the person around her....
So it is better that she rest in peace
or change her character a bit and she will survive.....




Yes I think that it is possible for some kind of world government or empire to to keep the peace forever. The ancient Romans, for example, conquered a lot of warlike tribes and nations and disarmed them and demilitarized their societies. After a few centuries the provincials were so unwarlike that when the Roman armies crumbled small armies of thousands of barbarians were able to conquer millions of provincials. Of course the ancient Romans didn't have the power of a modern government to affect social attitudes with mass media.

A modern world government, if it was smart, would discourage or prohibit movies and tv shows about rebel heroes and encourage movies and tv shows about conquering heroes and heroes who defeated rebellions, as well as brave firefighters and policemen. It would encourage movies and tv shows about people who were kind and gentle to everyone, who got what they wanted by trading and negociation and wanted to help those they were dealing with, stories in which even the antagonists or villains were a lot nicer and kinder than most of the heroes in older stories.

And it would try to make life as kind and pleasant as possible for all the children and teenagers in the world, so that they would not be toughed by harsh experiences and ready to fight for what they wanted when they were old enough to -- and it would take all the credit it could for making their lives gentler and remind them from time to time that they owe a lot to the world government.

And it wold try to increase the prosperity of everyone in the world so that they would be too comfortable to want to risk their lives in war. As people get richer they get more peaceful, so any rational world government would want to speed up the spread of wealth throughout the world.

And it would try to find a "moral equivalent of war" (which itself is sort of a continuation of the group hunts for large game that thousands of generations of our ancestors spent their lives in). Such as televised sports and projects to "defeat" diseases and famines and natural disasters and other inanimate enemies of humanity. And "attacking" potentially dangerous Earth-crossing asteroids, moving them into safer orbits which are also convenient for mining their resources to ship to Earth and increase the total wealth of the Human race.

So after a few centuries the world's peoples should be at least as tame and unwarlike as the Roman provincials were by the end of the Empire.

Of course such a world government would be a lot more like the Britannian Empire in the hypothetical reign of Empress Euphemia than in the reign of Charles!

And in the meantime the world government would try to contain all rebellions by destroying the international arms trade, destroying weapons factories and breaking up the organizations which traded in weapons, and inventing better and better ways to detect and destroy hidden weapons as the world is disarmed. The rebellions which would occur would be strong enough to cause exciting news stories from time to time but not to endanger the world government any more than the Indians Wars in the US West or the colonial wars and rebellions in the British Empire endangered those governments.

Anyway, it doesn''t matter how popular zero was after shooting Euphie, since his
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shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....


beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.









You know what infinitycubed?
I really admire your sense of reasoning....
But because of it.... it seems that everything I said was wrong....

You said, " I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?"


During those episodes, Zero was just an emerging figure as Japanese Hero.
Do you remember Rakshata? She said something when Euphemia proclaimed the establishment of SAZ, she said (I don't exactly remember the words) "between a beloved princess and a masked rebel whose identity was known by no one, which would the people choose? tha masked man would definitely loose "
Aside from that, SAZ would definitely become a sucess because of the presence of Suzaku.

I also see the possibility that when, Zero was shot, the Japanese will go Crazy, but without Zero, will they win?


"Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch."
During the first episodes, when lelouch was trying to figure out the specs of his geass, he said to cc that not remebering the events before,during and aafter is part of his geass effect. take a look on the episode when he used geass on villetta or the others.


And regarding on the thing you said about blackmailing the emperor on going to area 11, as I have said, it is useless, why would he have to save Euphie's life if in the world he is creating, Euphie will be alive? Besides Cornelia ha no power over him or the emperor himself can persuade her into helping hin in his goal....

And another thing, there's no way the doctors would be able to hide Euphie's life in fooling Suzaku, because she died right in front of him.... And there's also no way that she would get to coma, because she was shot directly on the heart.

Oh and another thing, do you know the expression, "you cannot serve two gods at a time"?
that's why, Euphie should die because if she live then, Zero will be a subordinate which he hated the most, and if it will be Euphie to give way, the Britannia won't agree on it. Therefore, they could not work together. And, Lelouch and Nunnaly are royalties thrown away by the emperor, so there's no way of accepting them.


I can see your point, a thousand possibilities of what could've happened if Euphie didn't die, but can you think of a dramatic, regretful and hateful idea that could drive the characters as well as the viewers crazy, Better than this?


Unless you think that Lelouch overestimated the regard that the Japanese people had for him, his belief that they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury means that Zero already had as much popularity as as necessary or perhaps even possible. Unless Lelouch did not believe that they would react with suicidal rage when he was shot. Perhaps he omitted for reasons of time to tell Euphie (and thus the audience) that his orders for her would also include making the soldiers attack the crowd. If the soldiers attacked the crowd and then chased them all though the town hunting them down they would be scattered when the Black Knights arrived and would be much easier to defeat. Of course that would mean that Lelouch was deliberately planning to cause something very similar to the Fuji massacre which actually happened.

If you don't want to believe that Lelouch was that evil you must believe that he believed -- probably accurately -- that he already had all the popularity he could need. And it is true that for a while Euphemia had even more popularity with the Japanese, but once Zero made her shoot him, or once he accidentally made her order a massacre her popularity would vanish and once again Zero would be the only hope of the Japanese.

By the way, if Rakshatta said that Euphie was a beloved princess, did she mean beloved by the Japanese? If so, how did she become beloved by the Japanese? Being beloved by the Japanese would seem to be implied by the statement that she would be trusted more than Zero. Or was Euphemia already beloved by almost everyone in the world before she came to Japan, perhaps due to her leading Brittannian relief efforts at various natural disasters (since she was the only Britannian leader who cared if millions died in the aftermath of natural disasters, no doubt)? That statement certainly gives a lot to speculate about.

I say that Zero was probably at his peak as a Japanese hero during those episodes. After all, his bloody Black Rebellion failed, and some may have heard rumors that it was his fault. Then, in the second season his invasion to liberate Japan was stopped at the Second Decisive Battle of Toyko when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used and millions died. After that, I suspect that millions of Japanese came to believe that with friends like Zero, who needed enemies.

You ask if the Japanese went crazy when Zero was shot, would they win? Lelouch also told Euphemia that when the Japanese people saw him miracously revive they would know that he and not Euphemia was their true messiah. So Llelouch planned to be unconscious and seemingly dead for some period of time after Euphemia shot him and then revive and take control of the rebellion. And just exactly how Leoluch planned to do that is a subject of much speculation.

I'm certain that Lelouch did not mean to say that while someone one was controlled by a geass he would forget things that he did earlier while controlled by the geass. If a doctor was ordered to operate on and save the life of someone who he wouldn't have saved without a geass command, it would be disastrous if halfway through the operation he forgot some of the steps he had already taken. Or an engineer geassed to make complex and sophisticated adjustments to some major piece of equipment. It would be very inefficient for Euphemia to order a massacre, forget about it, then order a massacre for the second time, forget about it, order a massacre for the third time, and so on. So the fact that Euphie forgot that she ordered a massacre indicates they she very probably was totally or almost totally out of the control of the geass.

I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. I said that if Euphemia was alive, whether as prisoner in Japan or already released, it would be very unlikely for the Emperor to come to Japan since he was hated thousands of times as much as Euphie was and even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And If Euphie had been killed in the revolt the Emperor would have been thousands of times less likely to do anything as foolish as coming to Japan. A live Euphemia was absolutely necessary for Lelouch's plan to have even a tiny chance of success.

I think that doctors could fake Euphie's death in front of Suzaku by giving her a drug that made her appear dead. And perhaps that was why they dragged him away as soon as she appeared to die, to keep him from examining her closely. I hope so. But that was not what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting that Lelouch's bullet would not kill her but put her in a coma, and that would give Suzaku almost as much reason to want revenge on Lelouch And Lelouch almost as much reason to ponder whether he wanted to oppose Nunnlly as he did Euphemia. Euphie was probably not shot in the heart, since her abdomen was covered with blood but her chest had no blood on it. Being shot in the head is not necessary to cause a coma. Patients who are operated on for various reasons and given anesthesia sometimes go into comas.

And I also suggested an alternate scenario in which Lelouch would capture her, not shoot her, and she would survive the Black Rebellion and its defeat, which otherwise would be the same as in the aired episodes. Then a few months later Euphie would be attacked by vengeful Japanese assassins. And nine months later when Lelouch was deciding what course to take, there would be reports that Euphie was still in a coma from the assassination attempt.

I believe the expression is that you cannot serve two masters. Anyway polytheists can serve many gods at the same time. And again a Code geass fan makes unwarranted assumptions such as Euphemia's survival is the same thing as as the SAZ plan going into effect. Even if the SAZ plan was ruined and the massacre started Euphie could survive if LeLouch decided not to kill her or Suzaku rescued her in the nick of time, etc. etc. After agreeing to the SAZ plan Lelouch said he would not serve under Euphemia (did she boss him around when they were children? who knows?). They didn't even get around to discussing important points such as whether Lelouch and the Black Knights would continue to revolt in other regions of Japan until all of Japan was made part of the SAZ.

I say it was a bad idea to kill Euphemia for its effect on the other characters, since Euphemia was better than all the other characters combined and without her the show is just evil people fighting each other.

NO I can't think of anything that would drive the views crazy more than that, It certainly has been driving me crazy for the last eight months since i saw episode 23. I think that episodes 22 and 23 are possibly the most evil tv episodes ever. Killing Euphemia has pretty much killed my interest in anime. I don't think that i will ever watch a new anime series again until there is a new Code Geass in which Euphemia comes back to life.








I do believe that lelouch is also evil. Why? Simply because he did evil things..... But you know, being the main character, it made him much preferable to the audience. But in fairness to him, he made the world peaceful after all.

On Rakshatta, i said that i don't completely remember the words, however, it may or may not be implied. Let me ask you something, if you were in the feet of the Japanese...... Would you choose An unknown man over a well known princess who has your late prime minister's son with her. I'm pretty sure that you would choose the latter. The answer is obvious (re-watch ep. 22 and you'll get my point). And I guess that would settle your argument on your 2nd paragraph.

It is true that Lelouch planned to pretend dead, to trigger the japanese into a great rebellion, unfortunately it happened the other way. The massacre did. But even so, it happened the same way as he planned. he gained the complete power over the japanese as he proclaim himself as the savior. If you are saying that zero's popularity is at it's peak, I must disagree. It's true that the japanese will throw themslves in suicidal fury when he was shot, not because he is popular but because it would only show how cruel the britannians are. That they cannot be trusted. Zero's popularity peak was after he killed Euphie.

About the geass's specs. Please do re-watch the episodes of the season 1 and you'll get my point. Especially when he used it on Vilhetta. And as far as i could remember, there was this episode when Jerimiah and Vilhetta were talking about it. Watch those and see for yourself. We will not have to argue on this matter anymore.

"I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. "
What about this?
And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.


Isn't that what you mean when you typed it?

And why would the doctors fake Euphemia's death in front of Suzaku? It's very illogical, Schneizer and even Cornelia have no contact with her during those times. Don't tell me that the doctors will decide for it themselves? Besides, Euphie don't have to die in order to freak Suzaku out, the fact that Zero hurt her or shot her was enough reason for him to go after Zero.

And another thing, after the massacre, Euphie's name marked in a very wrong way. If you were lelouch, would you like your first love to live a life, with everyone angry on her knowing that she killed a lot of people? With Euphie's character, would she stand that?

Let's go to the polytheist, do you think that their way of serving gods is applicable to the scenario? I already said the reason why they cannot work together, just dig it.

They may all appear evil but they all share good goals.

As for Euphie's death, it drove me crazy too...... In fact, I like her character. No wonder I chose her death as the most necessary. But it is, indeed.



beginning of infinitycubed's reponse. Why isn't this in a different box?

Lelouch did not make the world peaceful in the long term. The effects of the Zero Requiem will wear off soon. And I think that the United Federation of Nations, like the League of Nations or the United nations, will largely fail to keep the peace and then disband in a few decades or centuries, because it is mostly an effort by the people and leaders of the world to fool themselves that they don't have to give up the national independence they are addicted to for the sake of the everlasting peace that it is their duty to achieve.

I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people.

If Zero's popularity was at its peak after he killed Euphie it was because Euphie and her SAZ plan were discredited and Zero seemed the only hope for the Japanese, because Zero and the Black Knights rescued the surviving Japanese at Fuji and defeated the Britannians, because Zero and the Black Knights captured Tokyo, and because Zero killed Euphie. Killing Euphie was just one small part of the process which increased his popularity. It was merely "One small step forward for a plotter, one big fall for mankind". And he should have given up that small part of his popularity to use her as a hostage to gain some material benefit. Or because she deserved to live.

I said that lleouch needed a live Euphemia, in Japan or in Britannia, to lull the Emperor into a false sense of safety so he would have even the slightest chance of coming to japan. Even if Euphemia had not been killed, the Emperor would have been stupid to come to japan, since he should have realized that even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And with her dead the chance that he would come to Japen would be much, much smaller. I said that a live Euphemie was needed to make the Emperor think it was safe to come to Japan, not to blackmail him to come to Japan.

Perhaps the doctors would fake Euphemia's death because VV pulled out his vision phone and had the Emperor give them a direct order to do so. That ought to work. When the doctors gave up on Euphie one of them said he would inform prince Sscheitzel. Perhaps he was informing Schenitzel that they were successfully faking Euphie's death. Perhaps Schenitzel, or VV, or Charles planned to hold the revived Euphemia a prisoner and taunt her about her failure to make Britannia a kinder and gentler realm.

Maybe Euphie would want to die after the massacre. But maybe she would be determined to do as much good as she possible could to win back her good name. And maybe she would want to hide somewhere for the rest of her life and hope that people would forget about her. And the Emperor might give her an important position like viceroy she would have to accept to do good for the people, despite all the unwelcome publicity she would get. And the emperor would accept the increased happiness she brought to millions of strangers in order to enjoy the increased unhappiness of Euphie, someone he knew. I say that the good of the many outweighs the good of the one, so Euphemia has to live no matter how often she wishes she was dead.

YOu say that Euphemia's death was the most necessary. I say it was perhaps the most necessary to have the Code Geass that we have, but the least necessary to have a good code Geass, or one that I would like.







. . + maybe they are running out of box........ hehehehehehe


I agree.... "the effect of Zero Requiem will wear off soon".... because there is no permanent thing here on Earth except change, right?
But on your statement: "I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people."
I must disagree.... on the storyline.... do you think that Brtiannia wants to conquer the world in order to unite all nations?
I think not.... it was clearly stated there that Charles started wars in order that CC would show up.... in order for him and VV and Marianne to start the Ragnarok Conjunction

If you don't think that it was after Euphie's death that Zero had his popularity peak.... then when was it?

VV and Charles know what was happening during those times so, it is definitely not Charles nor VV who will take action to fake Euphie's death.... Do you remember the scene on episode 23 or 22 when Charles was laughing out loud at the sword of akasha saying " You deserve to be called my child".... to whom do you think he was saying that?
While to Schneizel..... remember....there was a signal interference during those times making communication very hard. That is also the reason why the media can not cut the broadcast of the massacre.

Not because the best character died....it means that the whole story was bad.....
Can't you see, that in spite of the fact that they all did evil things in order to achieve their goals.... the story still showed that human in nature is good.....
that they are all victims of unwanted circumstances going on around them.... that the evil actions they have taken were inevitable.....
the process was evil .... but the product is peace, a matter of good

To Euphie's death......
Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....



I don't care what motive Charles had for conquest, or what motive the other Britannians had for supporting his conquests. If Charles' Ragnarok plan was foiled and the new emperor wanted to keep on conquering for whatever reasons, Britannia would keep on conquering, and possibly conquer and/or negotiate union with, the rest of the world. Thus ending war forever. .

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high, but then the Black rebellion was crushed and there may have been a lot of rumors that zero had abandoned his forces during the crisis, which should have lowered his popularity somewhat.. Then his popularity may have gradually declined as the Japanese suffered harsher rule in the year between the first and the second seasons and some blamed it on Zero for starting the Black Rebellion. So possibly Zero's popularity was no higher or even less than it was before killing Euphie.

Anyway, Zero's popularity surge at the end of the first season was largely due to rescuing the survivors of the Fuji massacre (little did they know that he had been planning to cause a similar slaughter), defeating the Britannians, and leading the capture of the Tokyo Settlement. Killing Euphemia merely caused part of his popularity surge.

A reason on for Charles to fake Euphie's death. Annoyed by her kindness and gentleness, Charles had her given super human strength, speed, and ability to recover from injuries, trained as an assassin, and brainwashed to have a second personality that would be activated by secret codes to carry out assassinations unknown to Euphie's true self. So when she was serious wounded Charles ordered the doctors to fake her death for Suzaku and had VV use the secret codes to activate her assassin personality. No doubt after she recovered Charles had the assassin personality kill various random Japanese people in front of witnesses, starting rumors that Euphie's ghost was killing people and further blackening her name. Then he kept her assassin personality in control of her body full time, since Euphie was believed dead. But she kept escaping from the control of her brainwashing and Charles had to use the secret codes to regain control of her more and more often, until he was killed. Then she escaped from her brainwashing about the time of the series ending.

And if there was an R3 Charles could reappear, having faked his own death to see what would happen, and now intent on taking the Britannian throne from Nunnally. In the final confrontation, when Charles seemed trapped, he would use the secret codes on Euphemia to make her kill his enemies, But she would fight against the brainwashing and regain control of her body, and take Charles into custody.

I don't know how you can say that Code Geass showed that Human nature was good. I believe that of all the named characters only Euphemia, Shirely, Milly and Rivalez, and perhaps a few lesser characters, never did anything evil or never were parts of teams that included evildoers. If you took Code Geass as a guide then you would have to believe that ninety percent of all adults and fifty percent of all teenagers are evil.

Humans are good most of the time, but when they are organized into groups with military potential they use that military potential against other groups far too often.

The actions people take are not inevitable. Especially not in an alternate universe story. The only scientific justification for the concept of alternate universes is the many worlds variation of quantum mechanics, and that postulates countless alternate universes branching off every second. So there should be gazillions of alternate universes branching off every second in Code Geass. The number of alternate universes in which a person chooses to do a specific action will depend on the probability that he will chose that action, and the probablity that he will chose that action can be determined by countng how many alternate universes he chooses it in.

you say that the process was evil but the end result was peace, which was good.

The process of the Britannian conquest of the world would have been evil, but the end result would have been peace, which would have been good. And I think that the Britannian peace would last a lot longer than the peace after the Zero Requiem.

Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....

I believe that almost everyone deserves to die, but that's no reason to kill almost everyone. Andy why does everyone assume that Euphemia would have been so universally hated after the Fuji Massacre? Was the Fuji Massacre worse than Cornelia's Saitema Ghetto massacre? And what about all the millions of people killed in all the wars of Emperor Charles? Didn't he surivve for years while being hated much more than Euphie? Did the Fuji Massacre make Euphie hated worse than Stalin and Genghis Khan and Tamerlane were hated ten or fifteen years before their deaths?






Do you think that through oppression or state negotiations, war could be ended forever or world peace would be achieved?
i think not....

men never stop wanting anything....

Even today....
though we are having state unions or any association or organizations or whatever thing you're gonna call it which imposes the unity of countries all over the world.... cold wars and wars do occur.....

I believe in the saying,"the only permanent thing here on earth is change". A state will not remain at peace forever....
Oppression or state union, the result it would bring will eventually wear off as time pass by....


Going back.......

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high
you already said it, Zero's popularity peak was after shooting Euphie. As far as i could remember, we are arguing about when was it, disregarding the fact if it descend or ascend.... it doesn't matter, anyway.

Regarding the story you have made....
it impressed me....
i think it would be a good catch if the R2 would be remade.

but there is one tiny problem....
Charles is no God, he can possibly do brainwashing, but the part in which he is giving Euphie extraordinary abilities.... impossible
And I cannot think of how, Euphie's character would react to that?
And what would be her contribution to the war between lelouch and schneizel?


Human Nature.....

What do you think is reason why some things are regarded evil?
My answer: It is because, people think so....

If the people of Japan think that the oppression done by the Britannians are good, would they revolt?
Everything just depends on one's state of mind or one's own point of view....

If one thinks that he is being taken advantage, he would definitely fight....
but if he thinks that he is benifitting, he would definitely support.....

no thing is really and completely evil....
Remember what Athrun had once said.... "Wars occur because men has different ways of achieving one goal"
All of us aim peace but we have different ways on how we are going to achieve it....
Men are just doing what they think is right....


And there is no man here on earth that would like he, himself to be called evil....


On your last paragraph....
it is true that Charles had survived the hatred of the people around him.... and it is because he has strong personality..... anyway, he doesn't need approval for when the Ragnarok succeed he won't need to mind them....

To Euphemia.....
I can see that you are a great fan....
But if you are to write a story.... you should consider one's character.... in order to have consistency at the story and to keep the character's pesonality solid and distinct...
As I view Euphie's character in series .... I think that she is the type of character which won't be able to stand the hatred of the person around her....
So it is better that she rest in peace
or change her character a bit and she will survive.....

Yes I think that it is possible for some kind of world government or empire to to keep the peace forever. The ancient Romans, for example, conquered a lot of warlike tribes and nations and disarmed them and demilitarized their societies. After a few centuries the provincials were so unwarlike that when the Roman armies crumbled small armies of thousands of barbarians were able to conquer millions of provincials. Of course the ancient Romans didn't have the power of a modern government to affect social attitudes with mass media.

A modern world government, if it was smart, would discourage or prohibit movies and tv shows about rebel heroes and encourage movies and tv shows about conquering heroes and heroes who defeated rebellions, as well as brave firefighters and policemen. It would encourage movies and tv shows about people who were kind and gentle to everyone, who got what they wanted by trading and negociation and wanted to help those they were dealing with, stories in which even the antagonists or villains were a lot nicer and kinder than most of the heroes in older stories.

And it would try to make life as kind and pleasant as possible for all the children and teenagers in the world, so that they would not be toughened by harsh experiences and ready to fight for what they wanted when they were old enough to -- and it would take all the credit it could for making their lives gentler and remind them from time to time that they owe a lot to the world government.

And it wold try to increase the prosperity of everyone in the world so that they would be too comfortable to want to risk their lives in war. As people get richer they get more peaceful, so any rational world government would want to speed up the spread of wealth throughout the world.

And it would try to find a "moral equivalent of war" (which itself is sort of a continuation of the group hunts for large game that thousands of generations of our ancestors spent their lives in). Such as televised sports and projects to "defeat" diseases and famines and natural disasters and other inanimate enemies of humanity. And "attacking" potentially dangerous Earth-crossing asteroids, moving them into safer orbits which are also convenient for mining their resources to ship to Earth and increase the total wealth of the Human race.

So after a few centuries the world's peoples should be at least as tame and unwarlike as the Roman provincials were by the end of the Empire.

Of course such a world government would be a lot more like the Britannian Empire in the hypothetical reign of Empress Euphemia than in the reign of Charles!

And in the meantime the world government would try to contain all rebellions by destroying the international arms trade, destroying weapons factories and breaking up the organizations which traded in weapons, and inventing better and better ways to detect and destroy hidden weapons as the world is disarmed. The rebellions which would occur would be strong enough to cause exciting news stories from time to time but not to endanger the world government any more than the Indians Wars in the US West or the colonial wars and rebellions in the British Empire endangered those governments.

Anyway, it doesn''t matter how popular Zero was after shooting Euphie, since a large part of that popularity was from rescuing the survivors of the Fuji Massacre and from capturing the Toyko Settlement. I think that Zero could have afforded to pass up the popularity which came from killing
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infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....


beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.









You know what infinitycubed?
I really admire your sense of reasoning....
But because of it.... it seems that everything I said was wrong....

You said, " I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?"


During those episodes, Zero was just an emerging figure as Japanese Hero.
Do you remember Rakshata? She said something when Euphemia proclaimed the establishment of SAZ, she said (I don't exactly remember the words) "between a beloved princess and a masked rebel whose identity was known by no one, which would the people choose? tha masked man would definitely loose "
Aside from that, SAZ would definitely become a sucess because of the presence of Suzaku.

I also see the possibility that when, Zero was shot, the Japanese will go Crazy, but without Zero, will they win?


"Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch."
During the first episodes, when lelouch was trying to figure out the specs of his geass, he said to cc that not remebering the events before,during and aafter is part of his geass effect. take a look on the episode when he used geass on villetta or the others.


And regarding on the thing you said about blackmailing the emperor on going to area 11, as I have said, it is useless, why would he have to save Euphie's life if in the world he is creating, Euphie will be alive? Besides Cornelia ha no power over him or the emperor himself can persuade her into helping hin in his goal....

And another thing, there's no way the doctors would be able to hide Euphie's life in fooling Suzaku, because she died right in front of him.... And there's also no way that she would get to coma, because she was shot directly on the heart.

Oh and another thing, do you know the expression, "you cannot serve two gods at a time"?
that's why, Euphie should die because if she live then, Zero will be a subordinate which he hated the most, and if it will be Euphie to give way, the Britannia won't agree on it. Therefore, they could not work together. And, Lelouch and Nunnaly are royalties thrown away by the emperor, so there's no way of accepting them.


I can see your point, a thousand possibilities of what could've happened if Euphie didn't die, but can you think of a dramatic, regretful and hateful idea that could drive the characters as well as the viewers crazy, Better than this?


Unless you think that Lelouch overestimated the regard that the Japanese people had for him, his belief that they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury means that Zero already had as much popularity as as necessary or perhaps even possible. Unless Lelouch did not believe that they would react with suicidal rage when he was shot. Perhaps he omitted for reasons of time to tell Euphie (and thus the audience) that his orders for her would also include making the soldiers attack the crowd. If the soldiers attacked the crowd and then chased them all though the town hunting them down they would be scattered when the Black Knights arrived and would be much easier to defeat. Of course that would mean that Lelouch was deliberately planning to cause something very similar to the Fuji massacre which actually happened.

If you don't want to believe that Lelouch was that evil you must believe that he believed -- probably accurately -- that he already had all the popularity he could need. And it is true that for a while Euphemia had even more popularity with the Japanese, but once Zero made her shoot him, or once he accidentally made her order a massacre her popularity would vanish and once again Zero would be the only hope of the Japanese.

By the way, if Rakshatta said that Euphie was a beloved princess, did she mean beloved by the Japanese? If so, how did she become beloved by the Japanese? Being beloved by the Japanese would seem to be implied by the statement that she would be trusted more than Zero. Or was Euphemia already beloved by almost everyone in the world before she came to Japan, perhaps due to her leading Brittannian relief efforts at various natural disasters (since she was the only Britannian leader who cared if millions died in the aftermath of natural disasters, no doubt)? That statement certainly gives a lot to speculate about.

I say that Zero was probably at his peak as a Japanese hero during those episodes. After all, his bloody Black Rebellion failed, and some may have heard rumors that it was his fault. Then, in the second season his invasion to liberate Japan was stopped at the Second Decisive Battle of Toyko when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used and millions died. After that, I suspect that millions of Japanese came to believe that with friends like Zero, who needed enemies.

You ask if the Japanese went crazy when Zero was shot, would they win? Lelouch also told Euphemia that when the Japanese people saw him miracously revive they would know that he and not Euphemia was their true messiah. So Llelouch planned to be unconscious and seemingly dead for some period of time after Euphemia shot him and then revive and take control of the rebellion. And just exactly how Leoluch planned to do that is a subject of much speculation.

I'm certain that Lelouch did not mean to say that while someone one was controlled by a geass he would forget things that he did earlier while controlled by the geass. If a doctor was ordered to operate on and save the life of someone who he wouldn't have saved without a geass command, it would be disastrous if halfway through the operation he forgot some of the steps he had already taken. Or an engineer geassed to make complex and sophisticated adjustments to some major piece of equipment. It would be very inefficient for Euphemia to order a massacre, forget about it, then order a massacre for the second time, forget about it, order a massacre for the third time, and so on. So the fact that Euphie forgot that she ordered a massacre indicates they she very probably was totally or almost totally out of the control of the geass.

I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. I said that if Euphemia was alive, whether as prisoner in Japan or already released, it would be very unlikely for the Emperor to come to Japan since he was hated thousands of times as much as Euphie was and even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And If Euphie had been killed in the revolt the Emperor would have been thousands of times less likely to do anything as foolish as coming to Japan. A live Euphemia was absolutely necessary for Lelouch's plan to have even a tiny chance of success.

I think that doctors could fake Euphie's death in front of Suzaku by giving her a drug that made her appear dead. And perhaps that was why they dragged him away as soon as she appeared to die, to keep him from examining her closely. I hope so. But that was not what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting that Lelouch's bullet would not kill her but put her in a coma, and that would give Suzaku almost as much reason to want revenge on Lelouch And Lelouch almost as much reason to ponder whether he wanted to oppose Nunnlly as he did Euphemia. Euphie was probably not shot in the heart, since her abdomen was covered with blood but her chest had no blood on it. Being shot in the head is not necessary to cause a coma. Patients who are operated on for various reasons and given anesthesia sometimes go into comas.

And I also suggested an alternate scenario in which Lelouch would capture her, not shoot her, and she would survive the Black Rebellion and its defeat, which otherwise would be the same as in the aired episodes. Then a few months later Euphie would be attacked by vengeful Japanese assassins. And nine months later when Lelouch was deciding what course to take, there would be reports that Euphie was still in a coma from the assassination attempt.

I believe the expression is that you cannot serve two masters. Anyway polytheists can serve many gods at the same time. And again a Code geass fan makes unwarranted assumptions such as Euphemia's survival is the same thing as as the SAZ plan going into effect. Even if the SAZ plan was ruined and the massacre started Euphie could survive if LeLouch decided not to kill her or Suzaku rescued her in the nick of time, etc. etc. After agreeing to the SAZ plan Lelouch said he would not serve under Euphemia (did she boss him around when they were children? who knows?). They didn't even get around to discussing important points such as whether Lelouch and the Black Knights would continue to revolt in other regions of Japan until all of Japan was made part of the SAZ.

I say it was a bad idea to kill Euphemia for its effect on the other characters, since Euphemia was better than all the other characters combined and without her the show is just evil people fighting each other.

NO I can't think of anything that would drive the views crazy more than that, It certainly has been driving me crazy for the last eight months since i saw episode 23. I think that episodes 22 and 23 are possibly the most evil tv episodes ever. Killing Euphemia has pretty much killed my interest in anime. I don't think that i will ever watch a new anime series again until there is a new Code Geass in which Euphemia comes back to life.








I do believe that lelouch is also evil. Why? Simply because he did evil things..... But you know, being the main character, it made him much preferable to the audience. But in fairness to him, he made the world peaceful after all.

On Rakshatta, i said that i don't completely remember the words, however, it may or may not be implied. Let me ask you something, if you were in the feet of the Japanese...... Would you choose An unknown man over a well known princess who has your late prime minister's son with her. I'm pretty sure that you would choose the latter. The answer is obvious (re-watch ep. 22 and you'll get my point). And I guess that would settle your argument on your 2nd paragraph.

It is true that Lelouch planned to pretend dead, to trigger the japanese into a great rebellion, unfortunately it happened the other way. The massacre did. But even so, it happened the same way as he planned. he gained the complete power over the japanese as he proclaim himself as the savior. If you are saying that zero's popularity is at it's peak, I must disagree. It's true that the japanese will throw themslves in suicidal fury when he was shot, not because he is popular but because it would only show how cruel the britannians are. That they cannot be trusted. Zero's popularity peak was after he killed Euphie.

About the geass's specs. Please do re-watch the episodes of the season 1 and you'll get my point. Especially when he used it on Vilhetta. And as far as i could remember, there was this episode when Jerimiah and Vilhetta were talking about it. Watch those and see for yourself. We will not have to argue on this matter anymore.

"I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. "
What about this?
And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.


Isn't that what you mean when you typed it?

And why would the doctors fake Euphemia's death in front of Suzaku? It's very illogical, Schneizer and even Cornelia have no contact with her during those times. Don't tell me that the doctors will decide for it themselves? Besides, Euphie don't have to die in order to freak Suzaku out, the fact that Zero hurt her or shot her was enough reason for him to go after Zero.

And another thing, after the massacre, Euphie's name marked in a very wrong way. If you were lelouch, would you like your first love to live a life, with everyone angry on her knowing that she killed a lot of people? With Euphie's character, would she stand that?

Let's go to the polytheist, do you think that their way of serving gods is applicable to the scenario? I already said the reason why they cannot work together, just dig it.

They may all appear evil but they all share good goals.

As for Euphie's death, it drove me crazy too...... In fact, I like her character. No wonder I chose her death as the most necessary. But it is, indeed.



beginning of infinitycubed's reponse. Why isn't this in a different box?

Lelouch did not make the world peaceful in the long term. The effects of the Zero Requiem will wear off soon. And I think that the United Federation of Nations, like the League of Nations or the United nations, will largely fail to keep the peace and then disband in a few decades or centuries, because it is mostly an effort by the people and leaders of the world to fool themselves that they don't have to give up the national independence they are addicted to for the sake of the everlasting peace that it is their duty to achieve.

I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people.

If Zero's popularity was at its peak after he killed Euphie it was because Euphie and her SAZ plan were discredited and Zero seemed the only hope for the Japanese, because Zero and the Black Knights rescued the surviving Japanese at Fuji and defeated the Britannians, because Zero and the Black Knights captured Tokyo, and because Zero killed Euphie. Killing Euphie was just one small part of the process which increased his popularity. It was merely "One small step forward for a plotter, one big fall for mankind". And he should have given up that small part of his popularity to use her as a hostage to gain some material benefit. Or because she deserved to live.

I said that lleouch needed a live Euphemia, in Japan or in Britannia, to lull the Emperor into a false sense of safety so he would have even the slightest chance of coming to japan. Even if Euphemia had not been killed, the Emperor would have been stupid to come to japan, since he should have realized that even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And with her dead the chance that he would come to Japen would be much, much smaller. I said that a live Euphemie was needed to make the Emperor think it was safe to come to Japan, not to blackmail him to come to Japan.

Perhaps the doctors would fake Euphemia's death because VV pulled out his vision phone and had the Emperor give them a direct order to do so. That ought to work. When the doctors gave up on Euphie one of them said he would inform prince Sscheitzel. Perhaps he was informing Schenitzel that they were successfully faking Euphie's death. Perhaps Schenitzel, or VV, or Charles planned to hold the revived Euphemia a prisoner and taunt her about her failure to make Britannia a kinder and gentler realm.

Maybe Euphie would want to die after the massacre. But maybe she would be determined to do as much good as she possible could to win back her good name. And maybe she would want to hide somewhere for the rest of her life and hope that people would forget about her. And the Emperor might give her an important position like viceroy she would have to accept to do good for the people, despite all the unwelcome publicity she would get. And the emperor would accept the increased happiness she brought to millions of strangers in order to enjoy the increased unhappiness of Euphie, someone he knew. I say that the good of the many outweighs the good of the one, so Euphemia has to live no matter how often she wishes she was dead.

YOu say that Euphemia's death was the most necessary. I say it was perhaps the most necessary to have the Code Geass that we have, but the least necessary to have a good code Geass, or one that I would like.







. . + maybe they are running out of box........ hehehehehehe


I agree.... "the effect of Zero Requiem will wear off soon".... because there is no permanent thing here on Earth except change, right?
But on your statement: "I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people."
I must disagree.... on the storyline.... do you think that Brtiannia wants to conquer the world in order to unite all nations?
I think not.... it was clearly stated there that Charles started wars in order that CC would show up.... in order for him and VV and Marianne to start the Ragnarok Conjunction

If you don't think that it was after Euphie's death that Zero had his popularity peak.... then when was it?

VV and Charles know what was happening during those times so, it is definitely not Charles nor VV who will take action to fake Euphie's death.... Do you remember the scene on episode 23 or 22 when Charles was laughing out loud at the sword of akasha saying " You deserve to be called my child".... to whom do you think he was saying that?
While to Schneizel..... remember....there was a signal interference during those times making communication very hard. That is also the reason why the media can not cut the broadcast of the massacre.

Not because the best character died....it means that the whole story was bad.....
Can't you see, that in spite of the fact that they all did evil things in order to achieve their goals.... the story still showed that human in nature is good.....
that they are all victims of unwanted circumstances going on around them.... that the evil actions they have taken were inevitable.....
the process was evil .... but the product is peace, a matter of good

To Euphie's death......
Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....



I don't care what motive Charles had for conquest, or what motive the other Britannians had for supporting his conquests. If Charles' Ragnarok plan was foiled and the new emperor wanted to keep on conquering for whatever reasons, Britannia would keep on conquering, and possibly conquer and/or negotiate union with, the rest of the world. Thus ending war forever. .

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high, but then the Black rebellion was crushed and there may have been a lot of rumors that zero had abandoned his forces during the crisis, which should have lowered his popularity somewhat.. Then his popularity may have gradually declined as the Japanese suffered harsher rule in the year between the first and the second seasons and some blamed it on Zero for starting the Black Rebellion. So possibly Zero's popularity was no higher or even less than it was before killing Euphie.

Anyway, Zero's popularity surge at the end of the first season was largely due to rescuing the survivors of the Fuji massacre (little did they know that he had been planning to cause a similar slaughter), defeating the Britannians, and leading the capture of the Tokyo Settlement. Killing Euphemia merely caused part of his popularity surge.

A reason on for Charles to fake Euphie's death. Annoyed by her kindness and gentleness, Charles had her given super human strength, speed, and ability to recover from injuries, trained as an assassin, and brainwashed to have a second personality that would be activated by secret codes to carry out assassinations unknown to Euphie's true self. So when she was serious wounded Charles ordered the doctors to fake her death for Suzaku and had VV use the secret codes to activate her assassin personality. No doubt after she recovered Charles had the assassin personality kill various random Japanese people in front of witnesses, starting rumors that Euphie's ghost was killing people and further blackening her name. Then he kept her assassin personality in control of her body full time, since Euphie was believed dead. But she kept escaping from the control of her brainwashing and Charles had to use the secret codes to regain control of her more and more often, until he was killed. Then she escaped from her brainwashing about the time of the series ending.

And if there was an R3 Charles could reappear, having faked his own death to see what would happen, and now intent on taking the Britannian throne from Nunnally. In the final confrontation, when Charles seemed trapped, he would use the secret codes on Euphemia to make her kill his enemies, But she would fight against the brainwashing and regain control of her body, and take Charles into custody.

I don't know how you can say that Code Geass showed that Human nature was good. I believe that of all the named characters only Euphemia, Shirely, Milly and Rivalez, and perhaps a few lesser characters, never did anything evil or never were parts of teams that included evildoers. If you took Code Geass as a guide then you would have to believe that ninety percent of all adults and fifty percent of all teenagers are evil.

Humans are good most of the time, but when they are organized into groups with military potential they use that military potential against other groups far too often.

The actions people take are not inevitable. Especially not in an alternate universe story. The only scientific justification for the concept of alternate universes is the many worlds variation of quantum mechanics, and that postulates countless alternate universes branching off every second. So there should be gazillions of alternate universes branching off every second in Code Geass. The number of alternate universes in which a person chooses to do a specific action will depend on the probability that he will chose that action, and the probablity that he will chose that action can be determined by countng how many alternate universes he chooses it in.

you say that the process was evil but the end result was peace, which was good.

The process of the Britannian conquest of the world would have been evil, but the end result would have been peace, which would have been good. And I think that the Britannian peace would last a lot longer than the peace after the Zero Requiem.

Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....

I believe that almost everyone deserves to die, but that's no reason to kill almost everyone. Andy why does everyone assume that Euphemia would have been so universally hated after the Fuji Massacre? Was the Fuji Massacre worse than Cornelia's Saitema Ghetto massacre? And what about all the millions of people killed in all the wars of Emperor Charles? Didn't he surivve for years while being hated much more than Euphie? Did the Fuji Massacre make Euphie hated worse than Stalin and Genghis Khan and Tamerlane were hated ten or fifteen years before their deaths?






Do you think that through oppression or state negotiations, war could be ended forever or world peace would be achieved?
i think not....

men never stop wanting anything....

Even today....
though we are having state unions or any association or organizations or whatever thing you're gonna call it which imposes the unity of countries all over the world.... cold wars and wars do occur.....

I believe in the saying,"the only permanent thing here on earth is change". A state will not remain at peace forever....
Oppression or state union, the result it would bring will eventually wear off as time pass by....


Going back.......

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high
you already said it, Zero's popularity peak was after shooting Euphie. As far as i could remember, we are arguing about when was it, disregarding the fact if it descend or ascend.... it doesn't matter, anyway.

Regarding the story you have made....
it impressed me....
i think it would be a good catch if the R2 would be remade.

but there is one tiny problem....
Charles is no God, he can possibly do brainwashing, but the part in which he is giving Euphie extraordinary abilities.... impossible
And I cannot think of how, Euphie's character would react to that?
And what would be her contribution to the war between lelouch and schneizel?


Human Nature.....

What do you think is reason why some things are regarded evil?
My answer: It is because, people think so....

If the people of Japan think that the oppression done by the Britannians are good, would they revolt?
Everything just depends on one's state of mind or one's own point of view....

If one thinks that he is being taken advantage, he would definitely fight....
but if he thinks that he is benifitting, he would definitely support.....

no thing is really and completely evil....
Remember what Athrun had once said.... "Wars occur because men has different ways of achieving one goal"
All of us aim peace but we have different ways on how we are going to achieve it....
Men are just doing what they think is right....


And there is no man here on earth that would like he, himself to be called evil....


On your last paragraph....
it is true that Charles had survived the hatred of the people around him.... and it is because he has strong personality..... anyway, he doesn't need approval for when the Ragnarok succeed he won't need to mind them....

To Euphemia.....
I can see that you are a great fan....
But if you are to write a story.... you should consider one's character.... in order to have consistency at the story and to keep the character's pesonality solid and distinct...
As I view Euphie's character in series .... I think that she is the type of character which won't be able to stand the hatred of the person around her....
So it is better that she rest in peace
or change her character a bit and she will survive.....


Yes I think that it is possible for some kind of world government or empire to to keep the peace forever. The ancient Romans, for example, conquered a lot of warlike tribes and nations and disarmed them and demilitarized their societies. After a few centuries the provincials were so unwarlike that when the Roman armies crumbled small armies of thousands of barbarians were able to conquer millions of provincials. Of course the ancient Romans didn't have the power of a modern government to affect social attitudes with mass media.

A modern world government, if it was smart, would discourage or prohibit movies and tv shows about rebel heroes and encourage movies and tv shows about conquering heroes and heroes who defeated rebellions, as well as brave firefighters and policemen. It would encourage movies and tv shows about people who were kind and gentle to everyone, who got what they wanted by trading and negociation and wanted to help those they were dealing with, stories in which even the antagonists or villains were a lot nicer and kinder than most of the heroes in older stories.

And it would try to make life as kind and pleasant as possible for all the children and teenagers in the world, so that they would not be toughened by harsh experiences and ready to fight for what they wanted when they were old enough to -- and it would take all the credit it could for making their lives gentler and remind them from time to time that they owe a lot to the world government.

And it wold try to increase the prosperity of everyone in the world so that they would be too comfortable to want to risk their lives in war. As people get richer they get more peaceful, so any rational world government would want to speed up the spread of wealth throughout the world.

And it would try to find a "moral equivalent of war" (which itself is sort of a continuation of the group hunts for large game that thousands of generations of our ancestors spent their lives in). Such as televised sports and projects to "defeat" diseases and famines and natural disasters and other inanimate enemies of humanity. And "attacking" potentially dangerous Earth-crossing asteroids, moving them into safer orbits which are also convenient for mining their resources to ship to Earth and increase the total wealth of the Human race.

So after a few centuries the world's peoples should be at least as tame and unwarlike as the Roman provincials were by the end of the Empire.

Of course such a world government would be a lot more like the Britannian Empire in the hypothetical reign of Empress Euphemia than in the reign of Charles!

And in the meantime the world government would try to contain all rebellions by destroying the international arms trade, destroying weapons factories and breaking up the organizations which traded in weapons, and inventing better and better ways to detect and destroy hidden weapons as the world is disarmed. The rebellions which would occur would be strong enough to cause exciting news stories from time to time but not to endanger the world government any more than the Indians Wars in the US West or the colonial wars and rebellions in the British Empire endangered those governments.

Anyway, it doesn''t matter how popular Zero was after shooting Euphie, since a large part of that popularity was fr
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infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....


beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.









You know what infinitycubed?
I really admire your sense of reasoning....
But because of it.... it seems that everything I said was wrong....

You said, " I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?"


During those episodes, Zero was just an emerging figure as Japanese Hero.
Do you remember Rakshata? She said something when Euphemia proclaimed the establishment of SAZ, she said (I don't exactly remember the words) "between a beloved princess and a masked rebel whose identity was known by no one, which would the people choose? tha masked man would definitely loose "
Aside from that, SAZ would definitely become a sucess because of the presence of Suzaku.

I also see the possibility that when, Zero was shot, the Japanese will go Crazy, but without Zero, will they win?


"Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch."
During the first episodes, when lelouch was trying to figure out the specs of his geass, he said to cc that not remebering the events before,during and aafter is part of his geass effect. take a look on the episode when he used geass on villetta or the others.


And regarding on the thing you said about blackmailing the emperor on going to area 11, as I have said, it is useless, why would he have to save Euphie's life if in the world he is creating, Euphie will be alive? Besides Cornelia ha no power over him or the emperor himself can persuade her into helping hin in his goal....

And another thing, there's no way the doctors would be able to hide Euphie's life in fooling Suzaku, because she died right in front of him.... And there's also no way that she would get to coma, because she was shot directly on the heart.

Oh and another thing, do you know the expression, "you cannot serve two gods at a time"?
that's why, Euphie should die because if she live then, Zero will be a subordinate which he hated the most, and if it will be Euphie to give way, the Britannia won't agree on it. Therefore, they could not work together. And, Lelouch and Nunnaly are royalties thrown away by the emperor, so there's no way of accepting them.


I can see your point, a thousand possibilities of what could've happened if Euphie didn't die, but can you think of a dramatic, regretful and hateful idea that could drive the characters as well as the viewers crazy, Better than this?


Unless you think that Lelouch overestimated the regard that the Japanese people had for him, his belief that they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury means that Zero already had as much popularity as as necessary or perhaps even possible. Unless Lelouch did not believe that they would react with suicidal rage when he was shot. Perhaps he omitted for reasons of time to tell Euphie (and thus the audience) that his orders for her would also include making the soldiers attack the crowd. If the soldiers attacked the crowd and then chased them all though the town hunting them down they would be scattered when the Black Knights arrived and would be much easier to defeat. Of course that would mean that Lelouch was deliberately planning to cause something very similar to the Fuji massacre which actually happened.

If you don't want to believe that Lelouch was that evil you must believe that he believed -- probably accurately -- that he already had all the popularity he could need. And it is true that for a while Euphemia had even more popularity with the Japanese, but once Zero made her shoot him, or once he accidentally made her order a massacre her popularity would vanish and once again Zero would be the only hope of the Japanese.

By the way, if Rakshatta said that Euphie was a beloved princess, did she mean beloved by the Japanese? If so, how did she become beloved by the Japanese? Being beloved by the Japanese would seem to be implied by the statement that she would be trusted more than Zero. Or was Euphemia already beloved by almost everyone in the world before she came to Japan, perhaps due to her leading Brittannian relief efforts at various natural disasters (since she was the only Britannian leader who cared if millions died in the aftermath of natural disasters, no doubt)? That statement certainly gives a lot to speculate about.

I say that Zero was probably at his peak as a Japanese hero during those episodes. After all, his bloody Black Rebellion failed, and some may have heard rumors that it was his fault. Then, in the second season his invasion to liberate Japan was stopped at the Second Decisive Battle of Toyko when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used and millions died. After that, I suspect that millions of Japanese came to believe that with friends like Zero, who needed enemies.

You ask if the Japanese went crazy when Zero was shot, would they win? Lelouch also told Euphemia that when the Japanese people saw him miracously revive they would know that he and not Euphemia was their true messiah. So Llelouch planned to be unconscious and seemingly dead for some period of time after Euphemia shot him and then revive and take control of the rebellion. And just exactly how Leoluch planned to do that is a subject of much speculation.

I'm certain that Lelouch did not mean to say that while someone one was controlled by a geass he would forget things that he did earlier while controlled by the geass. If a doctor was ordered to operate on and save the life of someone who he wouldn't have saved without a geass command, it would be disastrous if halfway through the operation he forgot some of the steps he had already taken. Or an engineer geassed to make complex and sophisticated adjustments to some major piece of equipment. It would be very inefficient for Euphemia to order a massacre, forget about it, then order a massacre for the second time, forget about it, order a massacre for the third time, and so on. So the fact that Euphie forgot that she ordered a massacre indicates they she very probably was totally or almost totally out of the control of the geass.

I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. I said that if Euphemia was alive, whether as prisoner in Japan or already released, it would be very unlikely for the Emperor to come to Japan since he was hated thousands of times as much as Euphie was and even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And If Euphie had been killed in the revolt the Emperor would have been thousands of times less likely to do anything as foolish as coming to Japan. A live Euphemia was absolutely necessary for Lelouch's plan to have even a tiny chance of success.

I think that doctors could fake Euphie's death in front of Suzaku by giving her a drug that made her appear dead. And perhaps that was why they dragged him away as soon as she appeared to die, to keep him from examining her closely. I hope so. But that was not what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting that Lelouch's bullet would not kill her but put her in a coma, and that would give Suzaku almost as much reason to want revenge on Lelouch And Lelouch almost as much reason to ponder whether he wanted to oppose Nunnlly as he did Euphemia. Euphie was probably not shot in the heart, since her abdomen was covered with blood but her chest had no blood on it. Being shot in the head is not necessary to cause a coma. Patients who are operated on for various reasons and given anesthesia sometimes go into comas.

And I also suggested an alternate scenario in which Lelouch would capture her, not shoot her, and she would survive the Black Rebellion and its defeat, which otherwise would be the same as in the aired episodes. Then a few months later Euphie would be attacked by vengeful Japanese assassins. And nine months later when Lelouch was deciding what course to take, there would be reports that Euphie was still in a coma from the assassination attempt.

I believe the expression is that you cannot serve two masters. Anyway polytheists can serve many gods at the same time. And again a Code geass fan makes unwarranted assumptions such as Euphemia's survival is the same thing as as the SAZ plan going into effect. Even if the SAZ plan was ruined and the massacre started Euphie could survive if LeLouch decided not to kill her or Suzaku rescued her in the nick of time, etc. etc. After agreeing to the SAZ plan Lelouch said he would not serve under Euphemia (did she boss him around when they were children? who knows?). They didn't even get around to discussing important points such as whether Lelouch and the Black Knights would continue to revolt in other regions of Japan until all of Japan was made part of the SAZ.

I say it was a bad idea to kill Euphemia for its effect on the other characters, since Euphemia was better than all the other characters combined and without her the show is just evil people fighting each other.

NO I can't think of anything that would drive the views crazy more than that, It certainly has been driving me crazy for the last eight months since i saw episode 23. I think that episodes 22 and 23 are possibly the most evil tv episodes ever. Killing Euphemia has pretty much killed my interest in anime. I don't think that i will ever watch a new anime series again until there is a new Code Geass in which Euphemia comes back to life.








I do believe that lelouch is also evil. Why? Simply because he did evil things..... But you know, being the main character, it made him much preferable to the audience. But in fairness to him, he made the world peaceful after all.

On Rakshatta, i said that i don't completely remember the words, however, it may or may not be implied. Let me ask you something, if you were in the feet of the Japanese...... Would you choose An unknown man over a well known princess who has your late prime minister's son with her. I'm pretty sure that you would choose the latter. The answer is obvious (re-watch ep. 22 and you'll get my point). And I guess that would settle your argument on your 2nd paragraph.

It is true that Lelouch planned to pretend dead, to trigger the japanese into a great rebellion, unfortunately it happened the other way. The massacre did. But even so, it happened the same way as he planned. he gained the complete power over the japanese as he proclaim himself as the savior. If you are saying that zero's popularity is at it's peak, I must disagree. It's true that the japanese will throw themslves in suicidal fury when he was shot, not because he is popular but because it would only show how cruel the britannians are. That they cannot be trusted. Zero's popularity peak was after he killed Euphie.

About the geass's specs. Please do re-watch the episodes of the season 1 and you'll get my point. Especially when he used it on Vilhetta. And as far as i could remember, there was this episode when Jerimiah and Vilhetta were talking about it. Watch those and see for yourself. We will not have to argue on this matter anymore.

"I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. "
What about this?
And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.


Isn't that what you mean when you typed it?

And why would the doctors fake Euphemia's death in front of Suzaku? It's very illogical, Schneizer and even Cornelia have no contact with her during those times. Don't tell me that the doctors will decide for it themselves? Besides, Euphie don't have to die in order to freak Suzaku out, the fact that Zero hurt her or shot her was enough reason for him to go after Zero.

And another thing, after the massacre, Euphie's name marked in a very wrong way. If you were lelouch, would you like your first love to live a life, with everyone angry on her knowing that she killed a lot of people? With Euphie's character, would she stand that?

Let's go to the polytheist, do you think that their way of serving gods is applicable to the scenario? I already said the reason why they cannot work together, just dig it.

They may all appear evil but they all share good goals.

As for Euphie's death, it drove me crazy too...... In fact, I like her character. No wonder I chose her death as the most necessary. But it is, indeed.



beginning of infinitycubed's reponse. Why isn't this in a different box?

Lelouch did not make the world peaceful in the long term. The effects of the Zero Requiem will wear off soon. And I think that the United Federation of Nations, like the League of Nations or the United nations, will largely fail to keep the peace and then disband in a few decades or centuries, because it is mostly an effort by the people and leaders of the world to fool themselves that they don't have to give up the national independence they are addicted to for the sake of the everlasting peace that it is their duty to achieve.

I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people.

If Zero's popularity was at its peak after he killed Euphie it was because Euphie and her SAZ plan were discredited and Zero seemed the only hope for the Japanese, because Zero and the Black Knights rescued the surviving Japanese at Fuji and defeated the Britannians, because Zero and the Black Knights captured Tokyo, and because Zero killed Euphie. Killing Euphie was just one small part of the process which increased his popularity. It was merely "One small step forward for a plotter, one big fall for mankind". And he should have given up that small part of his popularity to use her as a hostage to gain some material benefit. Or because she deserved to live.

I said that lleouch needed a live Euphemia, in Japan or in Britannia, to lull the Emperor into a false sense of safety so he would have even the slightest chance of coming to japan. Even if Euphemia had not been killed, the Emperor would have been stupid to come to japan, since he should have realized that even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And with her dead the chance that he would come to Japen would be much, much smaller. I said that a live Euphemie was needed to make the Emperor think it was safe to come to Japan, not to blackmail him to come to Japan.

Perhaps the doctors would fake Euphemia's death because VV pulled out his vision phone and had the Emperor give them a direct order to do so. That ought to work. When the doctors gave up on Euphie one of them said he would inform prince Sscheitzel. Perhaps he was informing Schenitzel that they were successfully faking Euphie's death. Perhaps Schenitzel, or VV, or Charles planned to hold the revived Euphemia a prisoner and taunt her about her failure to make Britannia a kinder and gentler realm.

Maybe Euphie would want to die after the massacre. But maybe she would be determined to do as much good as she possible could to win back her good name. And maybe she would want to hide somewhere for the rest of her life and hope that people would forget about her. And the Emperor might give her an important position like viceroy she would have to accept to do good for the people, despite all the unwelcome publicity she would get. And the emperor would accept the increased happiness she brought to millions of strangers in order to enjoy the increased unhappiness of Euphie, someone he knew. I say that the good of the many outweighs the good of the one, so Euphemia has to live no matter how often she wishes she was dead.

YOu say that Euphemia's death was the most necessary. I say it was perhaps the most necessary to have the Code Geass that we have, but the least necessary to have a good code Geass, or one that I would like.







. . + maybe they are running out of box........ hehehehehehe


I agree.... "the effect of Zero Requiem will wear off soon".... because there is no permanent thing here on Earth except change, right?
But on your statement: "I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people."
I must disagree.... on the storyline.... do you think that Brtiannia wants to conquer the world in order to unite all nations?
I think not.... it was clearly stated there that Charles started wars in order that CC would show up.... in order for him and VV and Marianne to start the Ragnarok Conjunction

If you don't think that it was after Euphie's death that Zero had his popularity peak.... then when was it?

VV and Charles know what was happening during those times so, it is definitely not Charles nor VV who will take action to fake Euphie's death.... Do you remember the scene on episode 23 or 22 when Charles was laughing out loud at the sword of akasha saying " You deserve to be called my child".... to whom do you think he was saying that?
While to Schneizel..... remember....there was a signal interference during those times making communication very hard. That is also the reason why the media can not cut the broadcast of the massacre.

Not because the best character died....it means that the whole story was bad.....
Can't you see, that in spite of the fact that they all did evil things in order to achieve their goals.... the story still showed that human in nature is good.....
that they are all victims of unwanted circumstances going on around them.... that the evil actions they have taken were inevitable.....
the process was evil .... but the product is peace, a matter of good

To Euphie's death......
Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....



I don't care what motive Charles had for conquest, or what motive the other Britannians had for supporting his conquests. If Charles' Ragnarok plan was foiled and the new emperor wanted to keep on conquering for whatever reasons, Britannia would keep on conquering, and possibly conquer and/or negotiate union with, the rest of the world. Thus ending war forever. .

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high, but then the Black rebellion was crushed and there may have been a lot of rumors that zero had abandoned his forces during the crisis, which should have lowered his popularity somewhat.. Then his popularity may have gradually declined as the Japanese suffered harsher rule in the year between the first and the second seasons and some blamed it on Zero for starting the Black Rebellion. So possibly Zero's popularity was no higher or even less than it was before killing Euphie.

Anyway, Zero's popularity surge at the end of the first season was largely due to rescuing the survivors of the Fuji massacre (little did they know that he had been planning to cause a similar slaughter), defeating the Britannians, and leading the capture of the Tokyo Settlement. Killing Euphemia merely caused part of his popularity surge.

A reason on for Charles to fake Euphie's death. Annoyed by her kindness and gentleness, Charles had her given super human strength, speed, and ability to recover from injuries, trained as an assassin, and brainwashed to have a second personality that would be activated by secret codes to carry out assassinations unknown to Euphie's true self. So when she was serious wounded Charles ordered the doctors to fake her death for Suzaku and had VV use the secret codes to activate her assassin personality. No doubt after she recovered Charles had the assassin personality kill various random Japanese people in front of witnesses, starting rumors that Euphie's ghost was killing people and further blackening her name. Then he kept her assassin personality in control of her body full time, since Euphie was believed dead. But she kept escaping from the control of her brainwashing and Charles had to use the secret codes to regain control of her more and more often, until he was killed. Then she escaped from her brainwashing about the time of the series ending.

And if there was an R3 Charles could reappear, having faked his own death to see what would happen, and now intent on taking the Britannian throne from Nunnally. In the final confrontation, when Charles seemed trapped, he would use the secret codes on Euphemia to make her kill his enemies, But she would fight against the brainwashing and regain control of her body, and take Charles into custody.

I don't know how you can say that Code Geass showed that Human nature was good. I believe that of all the named characters only Euphemia, Shirely, Milly and Rivalez, and perhaps a few lesser characters, never did anything evil or never were parts of teams that included evildoers. If you took Code Geass as a guide then you would have to believe that ninety percent of all adults and fifty percent of all teenagers are evil.

Humans are good most of the time, but when they are organized into groups with military potential they use that military potential against other groups far too often.

The actions people take are not inevitable. Especially not in an alternate universe story. The only scientific justification for the concept of alternate universes is the many worlds variation of quantum mechanics, and that postulates countless alternate universes branching off every second. So there should be gazillions of alternate universes branching off every second in Code Geass. The number of alternate universes in which a person chooses to do a specific action will depend on the probability that he will chose that action, and the probablity that he will chose that action can be determined by countng how many alternate universes he chooses it in.

you say that the process was evil but the end result was peace, which was good.

The process of the Britannian conquest of the world would have been evil, but the end result would have been peace, which would have been good. And I think that the Britannian peace would last a lot longer than the peace after the Zero Requiem.

Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....

I believe that almost everyone deserves to die, but that's no reason to kill almost everyone. Andy why does everyone assume that Euphemia would have been so universally hated after the Fuji Massacre? Was the Fuji Massacre worse than Cornelia's Saitema Ghetto massacre? And what about all the millions of people killed in all the wars of Emperor Charles? Didn't he surivve for years while being hated much more than Euphie? Did the Fuji Massacre make Euphie hated worse than Stalin and Genghis Khan and Tamerlane were hated ten or fifteen years before their deaths?






Do you think that through oppression or state negotiations, war could be ended forever or world peace would be achieved?
i think not....

men never stop wanting anything....

Even today....
though we are having state unions or any association or organizations or whatever thing you're gonna call it which imposes the unity of countries all over the world.... cold wars and wars do occur.....

I believe in the saying,"the only permanent thing here on earth is change". A state will not remain at peace forever....
Oppression or state union, the result it would bring will eventually wear off as time pass by....


Going back.......

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high
you already said it, Zero's popularity peak was after shooting Euphie. As far as i could remember, we are arguing about when was it, disregarding the fact if it descend or ascend.... it doesn't matter, anyway.

Regarding the story you have made....
it impressed me....
i think it would be a good catch if the R2 would be remade.

but there is one tiny problem....
Charles is no God, he can possibly do brainwashing, but the part in which he is giving Euphie extraordinary abilities.... impossible
And I cannot think of how, Euphie's character would react to that?
And what would be her contribution to the war between lelouch and schneizel?


Human Nature.....

What do you think is reason why some things are regarded evil?
My answer: It is because, people think so....

If the people of Japan think that the oppression done by the Britannians are good, would they revolt?
Everything just depends on one's state of mind or one's own point of view....

If one thinks that he is being taken advantage, he would definitely fight....
but if he thinks that he is benifitting, he would definitely support.....

no thing is really and completely evil....
Remember what Athrun had once said.... "Wars occur because men has different ways of achieving one goal"
All of us aim peace but we have different ways on how we are going to achieve it....
Men are just doing what they think is right....


And there is no man here on earth that would like he, himself to be called evil....


On your last paragraph....
it is true that Charles had survived the hatred of the people around him.... and it is because he has strong personality..... anyway, he doesn't need approval for when the Ragnarok succeed he won't need to mind them....

To Euphemia.....
I can see that you are a great fan....
But if you are to write a story.... you should consider one's character.... in order to have consistency at the story and to keep the character's pesonality solid and distinct...
As I view Euphie's character in series .... I think that she is the type of character which won't be able to stand the hatred of the person around her....
So it is better that she rest in peace
or change her character a bit and she will survive.....


Yes I think that it is possible for some kind of world government or empire to to keep the peace forever. The ancient Romans, for example, conquered a lot of warlike tribes and nations and disarmed them and demilitarized their societies. After a few centuries the provincials were so unwarlike that when the Roman armies crumbled small armies of thousands of barbarians were able to conquer millions of provincials. Of course the ancient Romans didn't have the power of a modern government to affect social attitudes with mass media.

A modern world government, if it was smart, would discourage or prohibit movies and tv shows about rebel heroes and encourage movies and tv shows about conquering heroes and heroes who defeated rebellions, as well as brave firefighters and policemen. It would encourage movies and tv shows about people who were kind and gentle to everyone, who got what they wanted by trading and negociation and wanted to help those they were dealing with, stories in which even the antagonists or villains were a lot nicer and kinder than most of the heroes in older stories.

And it would try to make life as kind and pleasant as possible for all the children and teenagers in the world, so that they would not be toughened by harsh experiences and ready to fight for what they wanted when they were old enough to -- and it would take all the credit it could for making their lives gentler and remind them from time to time that they owe a lot to the world government.

And it wold try to increase the prosperity of everyone in the world so that they would be too comfortable to want to risk their lives in war. As people get richer they get more peaceful, so any rational world government would want to speed up the spread of wealth throughout the world.

And it would try to find a "moral equivalent of war" (which itself is sort of a continuation of the group hunts for large game that thousands of generations of our ancestors spent their lives in). Such as televised sports and projects to "defeat" diseases and famines and natural disasters and other inanimate enemies of humanity. And "attacking" potentially dangerous Earth-crossing asteroids, moving them into safer orbits which are also convenient for mining their resources to ship to Earth and increase the total wealth of the Human race.

So after a few centuries the world's peoples should be at least as tame and unwarlike as the Roman provincials were by the end of the Empire.

Of course such a world government would be a lot more like the Britannian Empire in the hypothetical reign of Empress Euphemia than in the reign of Charles!

And in the meantime the world government would try to contain all rebellions by destroying the international arms trade, destroying weapons factories and breaking up the organizations which traded in weapons, and inventing better and better ways to detect and destroy hidden weapons as the world is disarmed. The rebellions which would occur would be strong enough to cause exciting news stories from time to time but not to endanger the world government any more than the Indians Wars in the US West or the colonial wars and rebellions in the British Empire endangered those governments.

Anyway, it doesn''t matter how popular Zero was after shooting Euphie, since a large part of that popularity was fr
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shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....


beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.









You know what infinitycubed?
I really admire your sense of reasoning....
But because of it.... it seems that everything I said was wrong....

You said, " I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?"


During those episodes, Zero was just an emerging figure as Japanese Hero.
Do you remember Rakshata? She said something when Euphemia proclaimed the establishment of SAZ, she said (I don't exactly remember the words) "between a beloved princess and a masked rebel whose identity was known by no one, which would the people choose? tha masked man would definitely loose "
Aside from that, SAZ would definitely become a sucess because of the presence of Suzaku.

I also see the possibility that when, Zero was shot, the Japanese will go Crazy, but without Zero, will they win?


"Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch."
During the first episodes, when lelouch was trying to figure out the specs of his geass, he said to cc that not remebering the events before,during and aafter is part of his geass effect. take a look on the episode when he used geass on villetta or the others.


And regarding on the thing you said about blackmailing the emperor on going to area 11, as I have said, it is useless, why would he have to save Euphie's life if in the world he is creating, Euphie will be alive? Besides Cornelia ha no power over him or the emperor himself can persuade her into helping hin in his goal....

And another thing, there's no way the doctors would be able to hide Euphie's life in fooling Suzaku, because she died right in front of him.... And there's also no way that she would get to coma, because she was shot directly on the heart.

Oh and another thing, do you know the expression, "you cannot serve two gods at a time"?
that's why, Euphie should die because if she live then, Zero will be a subordinate which he hated the most, and if it will be Euphie to give way, the Britannia won't agree on it. Therefore, they could not work together. And, Lelouch and Nunnaly are royalties thrown away by the emperor, so there's no way of accepting them.


I can see your point, a thousand possibilities of what could've happened if Euphie didn't die, but can you think of a dramatic, regretful and hateful idea that could drive the characters as well as the viewers crazy, Better than this?


Unless you think that Lelouch overestimated the regard that the Japanese people had for him, his belief that they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury means that Zero already had as much popularity as as necessary or perhaps even possible. Unless Lelouch did not believe that they would react with suicidal rage when he was shot. Perhaps he omitted for reasons of time to tell Euphie (and thus the audience) that his orders for her would also include making the soldiers attack the crowd. If the soldiers attacked the crowd and then chased them all though the town hunting them down they would be scattered when the Black Knights arrived and would be much easier to defeat. Of course that would mean that Lelouch was deliberately planning to cause something very similar to the Fuji massacre which actually happened.

If you don't want to believe that Lelouch was that evil you must believe that he believed -- probably accurately -- that he already had all the popularity he could need. And it is true that for a while Euphemia had even more popularity with the Japanese, but once Zero made her shoot him, or once he accidentally made her order a massacre her popularity would vanish and once again Zero would be the only hope of the Japanese.

By the way, if Rakshatta said that Euphie was a beloved princess, did she mean beloved by the Japanese? If so, how did she become beloved by the Japanese? Being beloved by the Japanese would seem to be implied by the statement that she would be trusted more than Zero. Or was Euphemia already beloved by almost everyone in the world before she came to Japan, perhaps due to her leading Brittannian relief efforts at various natural disasters (since she was the only Britannian leader who cared if millions died in the aftermath of natural disasters, no doubt)? That statement certainly gives a lot to speculate about.

I say that Zero was probably at his peak as a Japanese hero during those episodes. After all, his bloody Black Rebellion failed, and some may have heard rumors that it was his fault. Then, in the second season his invasion to liberate Japan was stopped at the Second Decisive Battle of Toyko when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used and millions died. After that, I suspect that millions of Japanese came to believe that with friends like Zero, who needed enemies.

You ask if the Japanese went crazy when Zero was shot, would they win? Lelouch also told Euphemia that when the Japanese people saw him miracously revive they would know that he and not Euphemia was their true messiah. So Llelouch planned to be unconscious and seemingly dead for some period of time after Euphemia shot him and then revive and take control of the rebellion. And just exactly how Leoluch planned to do that is a subject of much speculation.

I'm certain that Lelouch did not mean to say that while someone one was controlled by a geass he would forget things that he did earlier while controlled by the geass. If a doctor was ordered to operate on and save the life of someone who he wouldn't have saved without a geass command, it would be disastrous if halfway through the operation he forgot some of the steps he had already taken. Or an engineer geassed to make complex and sophisticated adjustments to some major piece of equipment. It would be very inefficient for Euphemia to order a massacre, forget about it, then order a massacre for the second time, forget about it, order a massacre for the third time, and so on. So the fact that Euphie forgot that she ordered a massacre indicates they she very probably was totally or almost totally out of the control of the geass.

I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. I said that if Euphemia was alive, whether as prisoner in Japan or already released, it would be very unlikely for the Emperor to come to Japan since he was hated thousands of times as much as Euphie was and even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And If Euphie had been killed in the revolt the Emperor would have been thousands of times less likely to do anything as foolish as coming to Japan. A live Euphemia was absolutely necessary for Lelouch's plan to have even a tiny chance of success.

I think that doctors could fake Euphie's death in front of Suzaku by giving her a drug that made her appear dead. And perhaps that was why they dragged him away as soon as she appeared to die, to keep him from examining her closely. I hope so. But that was not what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting that Lelouch's bullet would not kill her but put her in a coma, and that would give Suzaku almost as much reason to want revenge on Lelouch And Lelouch almost as much reason to ponder whether he wanted to oppose Nunnlly as he did Euphemia. Euphie was probably not shot in the heart, since her abdomen was covered with blood but her chest had no blood on it. Being shot in the head is not necessary to cause a coma. Patients who are operated on for various reasons and given anesthesia sometimes go into comas.

And I also suggested an alternate scenario in which Lelouch would capture her, not shoot her, and she would survive the Black Rebellion and its defeat, which otherwise would be the same as in the aired episodes. Then a few months later Euphie would be attacked by vengeful Japanese assassins. And nine months later when Lelouch was deciding what course to take, there would be reports that Euphie was still in a coma from the assassination attempt.

I believe the expression is that you cannot serve two masters. Anyway polytheists can serve many gods at the same time. And again a Code geass fan makes unwarranted assumptions such as Euphemia's survival is the same thing as as the SAZ plan going into effect. Even if the SAZ plan was ruined and the massacre started Euphie could survive if LeLouch decided not to kill her or Suzaku rescued her in the nick of time, etc. etc. After agreeing to the SAZ plan Lelouch said he would not serve under Euphemia (did she boss him around when they were children? who knows?). They didn't even get around to discussing important points such as whether Lelouch and the Black Knights would continue to revolt in other regions of Japan until all of Japan was made part of the SAZ.

I say it was a bad idea to kill Euphemia for its effect on the other characters, since Euphemia was better than all the other characters combined and without her the show is just evil people fighting each other.

NO I can't think of anything that would drive the views crazy more than that, It certainly has been driving me crazy for the last eight months since i saw episode 23. I think that episodes 22 and 23 are possibly the most evil tv episodes ever. Killing Euphemia has pretty much killed my interest in anime. I don't think that i will ever watch a new anime series again until there is a new Code Geass in which Euphemia comes back to life.








I do believe that lelouch is also evil. Why? Simply because he did evil things..... But you know, being the main character, it made him much preferable to the audience. But in fairness to him, he made the world peaceful after all.

On Rakshatta, i said that i don't completely remember the words, however, it may or may not be implied. Let me ask you something, if you were in the feet of the Japanese...... Would you choose An unknown man over a well known princess who has your late prime minister's son with her. I'm pretty sure that you would choose the latter. The answer is obvious (re-watch ep. 22 and you'll get my point). And I guess that would settle your argument on your 2nd paragraph.

It is true that Lelouch planned to pretend dead, to trigger the japanese into a great rebellion, unfortunately it happened the other way. The massacre did. But even so, it happened the same way as he planned. he gained the complete power over the japanese as he proclaim himself as the savior. If you are saying that zero's popularity is at it's peak, I must disagree. It's true that the japanese will throw themslves in suicidal fury when he was shot, not because he is popular but because it would only show how cruel the britannians are. That they cannot be trusted. Zero's popularity peak was after he killed Euphie.

About the geass's specs. Please do re-watch the episodes of the season 1 and you'll get my point. Especially when he used it on Vilhetta. And as far as i could remember, there was this episode when Jerimiah and Vilhetta were talking about it. Watch those and see for yourself. We will not have to argue on this matter anymore.

"I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. "
What about this?
And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.


Isn't that what you mean when you typed it?

And why would the doctors fake Euphemia's death in front of Suzaku? It's very illogical, Schneizer and even Cornelia have no contact with her during those times. Don't tell me that the doctors will decide for it themselves? Besides, Euphie don't have to die in order to freak Suzaku out, the fact that Zero hurt her or shot her was enough reason for him to go after Zero.

And another thing, after the massacre, Euphie's name marked in a very wrong way. If you were lelouch, would you like your first love to live a life, with everyone angry on her knowing that she killed a lot of people? With Euphie's character, would she stand that?

Let's go to the polytheist, do you think that their way of serving gods is applicable to the scenario? I already said the reason why they cannot work together, just dig it.

They may all appear evil but they all share good goals.

As for Euphie's death, it drove me crazy too...... In fact, I like her character. No wonder I chose her death as the most necessary. But it is, indeed.



beginning of infinitycubed's reponse. Why isn't this in a different box?

Lelouch did not make the world peaceful in the long term. The effects of the Zero Requiem will wear off soon. And I think that the United Federation of Nations, like the League of Nations or the United nations, will largely fail to keep the peace and then disband in a few decades or centuries, because it is mostly an effort by the people and leaders of the world to fool themselves that they don't have to give up the national independence they are addicted to for the sake of the everlasting peace that it is their duty to achieve.

I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people.

If Zero's popularity was at its peak after he killed Euphie it was because Euphie and her SAZ plan were discredited and Zero seemed the only hope for the Japanese, because Zero and the Black Knights rescued the surviving Japanese at Fuji and defeated the Britannians, because Zero and the Black Knights captured Tokyo, and because Zero killed Euphie. Killing Euphie was just one small part of the process which increased his popularity. It was merely "One small step forward for a plotter, one big fall for mankind". And he should have given up that small part of his popularity to use her as a hostage to gain some material benefit. Or because she deserved to live.

I said that lleouch needed a live Euphemia, in Japan or in Britannia, to lull the Emperor into a false sense of safety so he would have even the slightest chance of coming to japan. Even if Euphemia had not been killed, the Emperor would have been stupid to come to japan, since he should have realized that even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And with her dead the chance that he would come to Japen would be much, much smaller. I said that a live Euphemie was needed to make the Emperor think it was safe to come to Japan, not to blackmail him to come to Japan.

Perhaps the doctors would fake Euphemia's death because VV pulled out his vision phone and had the Emperor give them a direct order to do so. That ought to work. When the doctors gave up on Euphie one of them said he would inform prince Sscheitzel. Perhaps he was informing Schenitzel that they were successfully faking Euphie's death. Perhaps Schenitzel, or VV, or Charles planned to hold the revived Euphemia a prisoner and taunt her about her failure to make Britannia a kinder and gentler realm.

Maybe Euphie would want to die after the massacre. But maybe she would be determined to do as much good as she possible could to win back her good name. And maybe she would want to hide somewhere for the rest of her life and hope that people would forget about her. And the Emperor might give her an important position like viceroy she would have to accept to do good for the people, despite all the unwelcome publicity she would get. And the emperor would accept the increased happiness she brought to millions of strangers in order to enjoy the increased unhappiness of Euphie, someone he knew. I say that the good of the many outweighs the good of the one, so Euphemia has to live no matter how often she wishes she was dead.

YOu say that Euphemia's death was the most necessary. I say it was perhaps the most necessary to have the Code Geass that we have, but the least necessary to have a good code Geass, or one that I would like.







. . + maybe they are running out of box........ hehehehehehe


I agree.... "the effect of Zero Requiem will wear off soon".... because there is no permanent thing here on Earth except change, right?
But on your statement: "I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people."
I must disagree.... on the storyline.... do you think that Brtiannia wants to conquer the world in order to unite all nations?
I think not.... it was clearly stated there that Charles started wars in order that CC would show up.... in order for him and VV and Marianne to start the Ragnarok Conjunction

If you don't think that it was after Euphie's death that Zero had his popularity peak.... then when was it?

VV and Charles know what was happening during those times so, it is definitely not Charles nor VV who will take action to fake Euphie's death.... Do you remember the scene on episode 23 or 22 when Charles was laughing out loud at the sword of akasha saying " You deserve to be called my child".... to whom do you think he was saying that?
While to Schneizel..... remember....there was a signal interference during those times making communication very hard. That is also the reason why the media can not cut the broadcast of the massacre.

Not because the best character died....it means that the whole story was bad.....
Can't you see, that in spite of the fact that they all did evil things in order to achieve their goals.... the story still showed that human in nature is good.....
that they are all victims of unwanted circumstances going on around them.... that the evil actions they have taken were inevitable.....
the process was evil .... but the product is peace, a matter of good

To Euphie's death......
Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....



I don't care what motive Charles had for conquest, or what motive the other Britannians had for supporting his conquests. If Charles' Ragnarok plan was foiled and the new emperor wanted to keep on conquering for whatever reasons, Britannia would keep on conquering, and possibly conquer and/or negotiate union with, the rest of the world. Thus ending war forever. .

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high, but then the Black rebellion was crushed and there may have been a lot of rumors that zero had abandoned his forces during the crisis, which should have lowered his popularity somewhat.. Then his popularity may have gradually declined as the Japanese suffered harsher rule in the year between the first and the second seasons and some blamed it on Zero for starting the Black Rebellion. So possibly Zero's popularity was no higher or even less than it was before killing Euphie.

Anyway, Zero's popularity surge at the end of the first season was largely due to rescuing the survivors of the Fuji massacre (little did they know that he had been planning to cause a similar slaughter), defeating the Britannians, and leading the capture of the Tokyo Settlement. Killing Euphemia merely caused part of his popularity surge.

A reason on for Charles to fake Euphie's death. Annoyed by her kindness and gentleness, Charles had her given super human strength, speed, and ability to recover from injuries, trained as an assassin, and brainwashed to have a second personality that would be activated by secret codes to carry out assassinations unknown to Euphie's true self. So when she was serious wounded Charles ordered the doctors to fake her death for Suzaku and had VV use the secret codes to activate her assassin personality. No doubt after she recovered Charles had the assassin personality kill various random Japanese people in front of witnesses, starting rumors that Euphie's ghost was killing people and further blackening her name. Then he kept her assassin personality in control of her body full time, since Euphie was believed dead. But she kept escaping from the control of her brainwashing and Charles had to use the secret codes to regain control of her more and more often, until he was killed. Then she escaped from her brainwashing about the time of the series ending.

And if there was an R3 Charles could reappear, having faked his own death to see what would happen, and now intent on taking the Britannian throne from Nunnally. In the final confrontation, when Charles seemed trapped, he would use the secret codes on Euphemia to make her kill his enemies, But she would fight against the brainwashing and regain control of her body, and take Charles into custody.

I don't know how you can say that Code Geass showed that Human nature was good. I believe that of all the named characters only Euphemia, Shirely, Milly and Rivalez, and perhaps a few lesser characters, never did anything evil or never were parts of teams that included evildoers. If you took Code Geass as a guide then you would have to believe that ninety percent of all adults and fifty percent of all teenagers are evil.

Humans are good most of the time, but when they are organized into groups with military potential they use that military potential against other groups far too often.

The actions people take are not inevitable. Especially not in an alternate universe story. The only scientific justification for the concept of alternate universes is the many worlds variation of quantum mechanics, and that postulates countless alternate universes branching off every second. So there should be gazillions of alternate universes branching off every second in Code Geass. The number of alternate universes in which a person chooses to do a specific action will depend on the probability that he will chose that action, and the probablity that he will chose that action can be determined by countng how many alternate universes he chooses it in.

you say that the process was evil but the end result was peace, which was good.

The process of the Britannian conquest of the world would have been evil, but the end result would have been peace, which would have been good. And I think that the Britannian peace would last a lot longer than the peace after the Zero Requiem.

Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....

I believe that almost everyone deserves to die, but that's no reason to kill almost everyone. Andy why does everyone assume that Euphemia would have been so universally hated after the Fuji Massacre? Was the Fuji Massacre worse than Cornelia's Saitema Ghetto massacre? And what about all the millions of people killed in all the wars of Emperor Charles? Didn't he surivve for years while being hated much more than Euphie? Did the Fuji Massacre make Euphie hated worse than Stalin and Genghis Khan and Tamerlane were hated ten or fifteen years before their deaths?






Do you think that through oppression or state negotiations, war could be ended forever or world peace would be achieved?
i think not....

men never stop wanting anything....

Even today....
though we are having state unions or any association or organizations or whatever thing you're gonna call it which imposes the unity of countries all over the world.... cold wars and wars do occur.....

I believe in the saying,"the only permanent thing here on earth is change". A state will not remain at peace forever....
Oppression or state union, the result it would bring will eventually wear off as time pass by....


Going back.......

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high
you already said it, Zero's popularity peak was after shooting Euphie. As far as i could remember, we are arguing about when was it, disregarding the fact if it descend or ascend.... it doesn't matter, anyway.

Regarding the story you have made....
it impressed me....
i think it would be a good catch if the R2 would be remade.

but there is one tiny problem....
Charles is no God, he can possibly do brainwashing, but the part in which he is giving Euphie extraordinary abilities.... impossible
And I cannot think of how, Euphie's character would react to that?
And what would be her contribution to the war between lelouch and schneizel?


Human Nature.....

What do you think is reason why some things are regarded evil?
My answer: It is because, people think so....

If the people of Japan think that the oppression done by the Britannians are good, would they revolt?
Everything just depends on one's state of mind or one's own point of view....

If one thinks that he is being taken advantage, he would definitely fight....
but if he thinks that he is benifitting, he would definitely support.....

no thing is really and completely evil....
Remember what Athrun had once said.... "Wars occur because men has different ways of achieving one goal"
All of us aim peace but we have different ways on how we are going to achieve it....
Men are just doing what they think is right....


And there is no man here on earth that would like he, himself to be called evil....


On your last paragraph....
it is true that Charles had survived the hatred of the people around him.... and it is because he has strong personality..... anyway, he doesn't need approval for when the Ragnarok succeed he won't need to mind them....

To Euphemia.....
I can see that you are a great fan....
But if you are to write a story.... you should consider one's character.... in order to have consistency at the story and to keep the character's pesonality solid and distinct...
As I view Euphie's character in series .... I think that she is the type of character which won't be able to stand the hatred of the person around her....
So it is better that she rest in peace
or change her character a bit and she will survive.....


Yes I think that it is possible for some kind of world government or empire to to keep the peace forever. The ancient Romans, for example, conquered a lot of warlike tribes and nations and disarmed them and demilitarized their societies. After a few centuries the provincials were so unwarlike that when the Roman armies crumbled small armies of thousands of barbarians were able to conquer millions of provincials. Of course the ancient Romans didn't have the power of a modern government to affect social attitudes with mass media.

A modern world government, if it was smart, would discourage or prohibit movies and tv shows about rebel heroes and encourage movies and tv shows about conquering heroes and heroes who defeated rebellions, as well as brave firefighters and policemen. It would encourage movies and tv shows about people who were kind and gentle to everyone, who got what they wanted by trading and negociation and wanted to help those they were dealing with, stories in which even the antagonists or villains were a lot nicer and kinder than most of the heroes in older stories.

And it would try to make life as kind and pleasant as possible for all the children and teenagers in the world, so that they would not be toughened by harsh experiences and ready to fight for what they wanted when they were old enough to -- and it would take all the credit it could for making their lives gentler and remind them from time to time that they owe a lot to the world government.

And it wold try to increase the prosperity of everyone in the world so that they would be too comfortable to want to risk their lives in war. As people get richer they get more peaceful, so any rational world government would want to speed up the spread of wealth throughout the world.

And it would try to find a "moral equivalent of war" (which itself is sort of a continuation of the group hunts for large game that thousands of generations of our ancestors spent their lives in). Such as televised sports and projects to "defeat" diseases and famines and natural disasters and other inanimate enemies of humanity. And "attacking" potentially dangerous Earth-crossing asteroids, moving them into safer orbits which are also convenient for mining their resources to ship to Earth and increase the total wealth of the Human race.

So after a few centuries the world's peoples should be at least as tame and unwarlike as the Roman provincials were by the end of the Empire.

Of course such a world government would be a lot more like the Britannian Empire in the hypothetical reign of Empress Euphemia than in the reign of Charles!

And in the meantime the world government would try to contain all rebellions by destroying the international arms trade, destroying weapons factories and breaking up the organizations which traded in weapons, and inventing better and better ways to detect and destroy hidden weapons as the world is disarmed. The rebellions which would occur would be strong enough to cause exciting news stories from time to time but not to endanger the world government any more than the Indians Wars in the US West or the colonial wars and rebellions i
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infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:


infinitycubed wrote:


tophwoman01 wrote:

you can not say lulu however because we can't be sure that he is dead so I think so far Euphia death was the most neccessary and shirly father's death was the least.


I think that Euphie's death was the least necessary. When I saw Lelouch shoot her without any need to I realized that Euphemia was not merely a charming minor character but the only person in the cast who was good instead of evil. Basically for me there is no more reason to watch Code Geass after episode 23. And it gives me the creeps to think that other people can watch Lelouch murder Euphemia without even a strong evil reason and still be interested in his fate and still like him.
Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in AREA 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax.
In the world of code geass the death of Euphemia was not necessary to save the Japanese from extermination, unless Euphemia was the greatest warrior in all of anime. Euphemia could have been captured and locked up safely. She might not even have wanted to exterminate all Japanese, just those in the stadium. And as time passed how could Euphemia tell if a Japanese person had been in the stadium and was thus one of her targets?
Euphemia's death was not necessary to keep her from killing Suzaku, that great warrior, since they might never have come into contact again.
Euphemia might not have been controlled by the geass for the rest of her life. Lelouch didn't tell her to kill the Japanese for the rest of her life, just kill the Japanese.
Euphemia might have been better off dead, but many people in similar situations choose to live, and anyway it was her decision to make, not Lelouch's.
Euphemia would have made a great hostage alive.
Euphemia's death was one of the worst murders ever shown on tv in my opinion, and it is not necessary for the protagonist of a show to commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv. In fact, it is necessary for him to not commit one of the worst murders ever shown on tv for the show to be considered a good show.



I don't think so.....
during those days, lelouch's only intention is to make a peaceful place where he and Nunnaly could live. (the war for a peaceful world came to him when Nunnaly became the Governor of Area 11.)
that's the main reason why he agreed to Euphie's proposal, unfortunately his geass went out of control that led Euphie to an unwanted situation. He accidentally commanded Euphie to "kill all Japanese", that's why she even threatened Suzaku, but because her body is weak, she cannot pursue it.
The Geass of Absolute Obedience will never be contraticted (though Euphie says that she couldn't kill Suzaku, the command is still effective.)
her death forced Suzaku to go after punishing Zero though he already knew that he is his bestfriend, Lelouch.
made Suzaku a knight of rounds (higher than being a princess' knight) and drove Lelouch to fight for the world and let go of his selfish reason.

the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia,


Oopps! I must have goofed somehow. Anyway, Shivre's reply is above and my reply is below.

I don't think so back at you.

Geass many be absolute, but Nunnally broke her blindness geass after eight years. Various geases have been known to last for eight or ten years, but there is no information about. geasses lasting longer than that. Perhaps geasses wear down or run out of energy after eight to twelve years and Nunnally broke free of hers sooner than usual because she really needed to see. So if geasses only last about a decade anyway, Euphemia might have broken her geass after some years.

If Euphemia had been locked up the geass canceler would have been available in just a year, and her guardians could have tried to negotiate to have it used on her.

If Lelouch asked CC if Euphemia could be cured, or if CC had any pity on an innocent girl less than a thirtieth CC's age, CC could have told Lelouch that VV could undo Euphemia's geass command (and who knows what other possible cures CC might have known about). Curing Euphemia's geass was not an insolvable scientific problem but a minor negotiating problem.

But Euphemia almost entirely broke her geass command before she was shot. When the geass tried to make her kill Suzaku on her deathbed she still had enough energy to move her hands and arms a little. She could have put her hand on Suzaku's shoulder, close to his neck, and then slashed his neck with her thumbnail, hoping to slice a vital blood vessel. I think her geass didn't give up because her body was so weak, but because Euphemia resisted it.

When Suzaku asked her about giving the order, she asked what order. She didn't remember what she did while controlled by the geass and so was entirely or almost entirely free of its control. Then Euphemia's irises became encircled with red, a sign that geass controlled her. but nothing happened for a while. Then Euphemia asked if Suzaku was Japanese, then said she couldn't do something so terrible. Then her eyes remained encircled with red but nothing happened until the red circles faded away. The red circles were present around her irises even when Euphemia was not aware of any pressure to kill, when the geass command was too weak for her to even notice it.

I believe that when the geass command tried to regain control of Euphemia it increased its power, and Euphemia's irises became circled with red as soon as the power reached a very low level, perhaps ten percent of what was needed to control Euphemia. And if Euphemia's irises were encircled with red in that scene whenever the geass command had at least ten percent of the power it needed to control her body, that might have been the case in the scene where Lelouch shot her. Euphemia might have been almost totally free of the geass control and still had her irises encircled with red when Lelouch shot her.

When Euphemia invited Lelouch to help her administer the SAZ she clearly didn't remember the massacre which would scare away the surviving Japanese and make Zero's help unnecessary. Then Euphemia said "No, that's no right." She vaguely remembered that the plan had been changed but she didn't remember the massacre clearly.

If the geass command was mostly in control of Euphemia's body it would have made her go look for Japanese to shoot with the machine gun that Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, or ask for Lelouch's help, or do something to kill more Japanese. So Euphemia's normal self should have been mostly in control of her body when she talked to Lelouch. But Euphemia would have been horrified if she remembered the massacre clearly, so she didn't not remember it well. That is a sign that she was almost entirely free of the control of the geass, ten thousand times faster than Nunnally broke her geass.

Since Euphemia is the only person known to resist a geass command at first, the geass might have increased its power usage to make her obey and kept up the high power usage to keep her obeying, until it ran out of energy after perhaps an hour. instead of years or an entire lifetime of obedience. And perhaps Euphemia's subconscious continued to resist and attack the geass command and broke it down eventually. So if Lelouch and the Black Knights had not come to rescue the few surviving Japanese in the SAZ, Euphemia would have returned to her normal self, wondered why she was in a nightmare, called someone on the radio, heard about the massacre, and ordered it stopped. And if Lelouch had captured her alive he could have tried using her as a hostage to stop the massacre.

When Lelouch walked past Euphemia, confident that she wouldn't shoot him in the back, she turned around to keep him in sight., as was almost inevitable when two people are so close together. So Lelouch was deliberately condemning to death any Japanese who might come into Euphemia's view when she turned around. Since she didn't fire her machine gun, which Lelouch, CC, and Kallen had so inexplicably let her pick up, either there were no Japanese behind Euphemia or the geass was too weak to make her kill anymore.

Since Euphemia could have been picked up by one of the nightmares as soon as she emerged from the wreckage of her nightmare, it its hard to believe that Lelouch shot her so deliberately because he was in a hurry to save the Japanese from her.

Many people believe that Lelouch shot Euphemia to get more popularity with the Japanese and get them to follow him in his revolution. But Lelouch already believed that Zero was so popular that thousands of Japanese would throw themselves at the Britannians in suicidal fury if he was shot by Euphemia, and then Zero and the Black knights had added to their popularity by coming to the rescue at the Fuji Massacre. How could Lelouch believe that Zero needed any more popularity or that posing as a brave Euphy-slaying hero would be more useful to the cause than using Euphemia as a hostage and maybe getting Suzaku to join the revolution with his Lancelot to save Euphemia?

During the attack on the Tokyo settlement Lelouch gloated to CC that once they captured the government center there and proclaimed an independent Japan the Emperor would have no choice and have to come to meet Zero face to mask. ( And then Lelouch could use his geass on him). Ah, if proclaiming an independent Japan in the Toyko government center was like signing the declaration of independence, wouldn't it be followed by months or years of hard fighting before the Britannians conceded Japanese independence? Five years of fighting during the American Revolution, and then two more years to negotiate the peace treaty, for example. Of course the Britannians would develop F.R.E.I.J.A. in a year or two, unknown to Lelouch, and then Lelouch and Japan would become "ground Zero".

In our world King George III did not make a state visit to the US either after the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The King of Spain did not visit Mexico, or Peru, or Argentina, or any of the other former colonies as soon as they gained independence. I don't remember any examples of a head of state or government visiting a former colony right after it gained independence in a bloody revolution. And i doubt if Lelouch could find many examples of such odd behavior in the alternate history of his world.

And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.

A live Euphie was absolutely vital to the success of Lelouch's plan. And Lelouch murdered her anyway.

You say that good things happened in the end because of Euphie's murder. But since Code Geass is set in an alternate universe, there should be countless gazillions of alternate universes in which Code Geass has different endings. For every universe in which the second season ended the way it did, there should be billions of universes where the second season had the same beginning but much different endings.

And for every universe where the second season began as it did there should have been billions of universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia but was not alive when the second season began.

Because Euphemia's superhuman goodness and resistance to the geass command makes me suspect that Euphemia is not a human being. I suspect that Euphemia may have been incarnated as a human and a member of the Britannian imperial family in order to teach humans kindness and peacefulness. So for every alternate univrese in which her people did not take any revenge for her murder there might be a thousand in which those considered responsible, such as Lelouch, CC, Kallen, VV, and Emperor Charles, were executed and then Euphemia brought back to life and appointed Empress of Earth. "Heed her well this time, Humans, or else!"

And for everyone one of those universes where Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people only killed a few people in revenge for killing her, there might be a thousand universes where they exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese for being responsible for her death, then brought her back to life and made her Empress of what was left of humanity.

And for every universe in which Lelouch shot Euphemia and her people merely exterminated the Britannians and the Japanese, there might be a thousand where they exterminated the entire human race, then brought Euphemia back to life and brought back to life some, but not all, of the humans she wanted resurrected, and made her Empress of Mankind.

So I suspect that the human race made out a lot better in most universes where Lelouch did not shoot Euphemia than in most of the ones where he did shoot her.

You say that Euphie's death drove Lelouch to give up his selfish goal and fight to make the whole world more peaceful. I have already given my opinion of how few alternate universes had anything good come as a result of her murder. But could you explain the course of events which lead from Euphie's murder to Lelouch deciding to make the whole world better in the aired series? It seems to me that framing an innocent girl for one of your mistakes and murdering her and being acclaimed a hero for it is likely to make most people worse and not make them change their goals for the better, so Lelouch would be a rare exception if that was the case with him.

you say: "the idea of killing your first love which is your best friend girlfriend made that series really good (on my own opinion)....
besides, that is the point when Lelouch made a great rebellion against Britannia."

I agree that would be a great dramatic twist if the person killed was not the only good and noble leader in the whole cast, leaving the show with evil people fighting other evil people. The plot would have been good if Lelouch had a good reason or even some sensible evil reason to kill the victim, and if the victim was as evil as Kallen, CC, Viletta, or Cornelia, or even a decent girl like Cicely, Milly, Nunnally, or Shirley, but not when she was more good than all the other characters put together.

And the first season could have had a spectacular ending if Suzaku rescued Euphemia and the Japanese went crazy to get revenge on her. You might have seen the Errol Flynn movie Charge of the Light Brigade in which the fictional Captain Vickers forges the orders for the charge to have a chance to get revenge on the fictional Surat Khan for his fictional massacre. The Britannians could use Euphemia as bait to lure the Japanese rebels into a suicidal attack.

Hundreds of nightmares in formation could charge down the valley of death at the distant Britannians and Euphemia, ignoring Zero's warnings that this is a trap. Artillery to the right of them and to the left of them could volley and thunder, but the rebels would be too excited to care that they had blundered. Nightmares would fall by the dozens, but they would charge on anyway. Desperate, Zero would proclaim that he had accidentally used a spell on Euphemia to make her order the Fuji Massacre and she was innocent, but the others would say he turned chicken and was just trying to get them to turn back with his silly story.

The nightmares would head away from the camera toward the distant Britannians and become too distant to recognize whose vehicles were being shot down. They would disappear in a cloud of dust and smoke as the screen went black and the season ended.





I can see that you're a very intelligent person, to get this far....
On the scene, when Euphie was talking to Zero before she was shot, she was not really breaking the curse of geass....
She didn't shot Zero because she knew that Zero is Lelouch, her brother, a Britannian.
The curse of the geass didn't gave her the ability to distinguish Japanese from Britannians, that's why she is asking...(that is also the reason why she had to ask Suzaku)
But it is true that she is resisting....

(Not remembering the events before, during and after are part of lelouch's geass)

And if I take you right, Lelouch did not say such horrible things to push Euphemia on killing him
but just mentioning examples of things she cannot do, but she will if he would ask her to.

Regarding the reason why lelouch had to shot Euphie, it's inevitable, if lelouch didn't shot her, he won't be able to prove Zero's worth to the Black knights. Why do they have to take that murderous lady as hostage if they could go to war? Though Cornelia really love her sister, the empire could forsaken her for their emperor's goal. So it'll be useless. Lelouch knew that the emperor doesn't care about his sons and daughters. And if I am not mistaken, a part on the r2, Suzaku mentioned that the emperor knew what happened to Euphie and he have the power to save his daughter but he didn't because he wanted that war in order CC would show up.

And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle....
If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story....

As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan....


beginning of infinitycubed's response.

Yes, Euphie was breaking her geass in the scene where she was talking to Lelouch. When she said she must kill the Japanese she was still controlled by the geass against her entire peaceful nature. When she shot at Lelouch's nightmare she was still being forced to try to kill by the geass. When she told Lelouch she had thought he was Japanese when he was in his nightmare she still remembered that her mission was to kill the Japanese. If she had seen some Japanese person at that moment she might have tried to shoot him, or she might have fought against the geass. And then inn the next few seconds the geass faded like an incandescent light bulb when the power is cut off. She asked Zero to help her with the SAZ., forgetting about the massacre. Then she just stood around and looked at Lelouch and was probably trying to remember and figure out what was going on. If her gess command was to kill all the Japanese, she would have to struggle and hurry just to keep up with the new babies being born, but she ignored that and wasted precious moments.

Before, the geass could make her kill against everything that she believed in. Now the geass could not make her do anything against her desire to chat with Lelouch, a desire that was much weaker than her reluctance to kill. Before the geass could make her do something against her strongest objections. Now it could not make her do anything against her much weaker desire to have a conversation. I would say that the power of the geass command was plummeting rapidly while Euphemia talked to Lelouch. I would say that Euphemia was resisting very well and very successfully by the time that Lelouch shot her.

Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch.

Then you talk about horrible things which Lelouch supposedly said to Euphemia. I don't remember writing about horrible things Lelouch said to Euphemia and I don't see anything in my post about it. What's up?

You say that Lelouch had to shoot Euphemia to prove his worth to the Black nights. I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?

So you think that taking Euphemia hostage is a total alternate to going to war, or that war with thousands of deaths is preferable to forcing the enemy to surrender by using a hostage and perhaps not losing a single soldier on your side?

Did you know that Jerusalem was not captured and sacked by an invading army between about 60 BC and about 620 AD, that for over 650 years the power of Rome protected Palestine from invasions from the Persians to the east? But the Jews, being human, didn't appreciate that protection but resented the oppression they suffered under the Romans, forgetting that many prophets had criticized the upper classes for oppressing the poor just as badly while the Jews had been a small, weak independent nation that was constantly being invaded and looted. So they revolted against Roman rule in 66 AD, while the Roman Empire was being distracted by a civil war. but the Roman general Vespasian continued to defeat the rebels. Then Vespasian threw his helmet in the ring and proclaimed himself emperor and marched off with much of his army to seize power. And his son Titus finished crushing the rebels with the smaller force left in Palestine.

Suppose that a Roman force captured the fictional small town of Bethel and killed much of the population and sold the rest to the slave traders who accompanied the army. And when the fictional commander Judah Ben David recovered from his wounds and learned that his surviving family members had been captured and sold into slavery, he came up with a plan to get them back. So Judah Ben David ambushed and captured Titus, son of Vespasian, and threatened to torture him to death unless Vespasian returned all the people of Bethel who had been enslaved and gave them and Ben David and his soldiers safe conduct to the border where they would never return to fight Rome again. Suppose that Vespasian, who had not yet proclaimed himself emperor, sent a request to the emperor in Rome asking for his help in finding and returning the slaves captured at Bethel.

So what would you do if you were the emperor Nero, or Galba, or Otho, or Vitelius? Would you tell Vespasian that a proud Roman would never give in to the demands of hostage takers but would rather see his son killed, or would you agree to help return the slaves captured at Bethel and get Titus back safely and so stay on the good side of Vespasian and hope that would be enough to keep him from proclaiming himself emperor?

You say that the emperor Charles didn't love any of his children. But he needed the services of his best general Cornelia, especially if his other great general Schneitzel was plotting to seize the throne. I say that only an idiot would risk forcing Cornelia to join the rebels in order to save Euphemia, perhaps taking large part of he army with her.

You say that in R2 Suzaku said that the emperor knew what was going on and could have saved Euphemia but chose not to. I suspected as much, which is why I listed Charles and VV among those Euphemia's people would execute if they only killed a few people considered most responsible for Euphemia's death. But that was very foolish of the Emperor, since saving Euphie would have earned him a lot of gratitude from Cornelia. Since Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to have even the slightest chance to get the emperor to visit Japan, I would say that getting rid of Euphemia while they still needed her was a bad trait shared by father and son.

You say that the Emperor let Euphie die because he wanted a war to catch CC. That is illogical of the emperor since there could have been a war just as much with a live Euphie as with a dead one. Charles and Lelouch seem unable to think straight when Euphemia is concerned.

Anyway, Suzaku would not wait for the emperor's or Cornelia's permission to do whatever he had to do to save Euphemia if she was a hostage. And that includes going over to the rebels with his Lancelot if necessary. Do you think that the Black Knights would all have been so angry that they wouldn't recognize the advantages of having the girlfriend of the best enemy warrior as a hostage? And the beloved sister of the enemy general?

you say: "And I think, the accidental usage of geass on Euphie is part of the writer's plan to take the course of the story on a great battle...."

Yes, but the accidental geassing of Euphie could have resulted in a great battle if she was still alive. Remember my proposal for a "Change of the Nightmare Brigade" ending to season one, as just one example? And if Euphemia had survived the season could have ended almost exactly as it did. If Euphie was in a coma and the doctors didn't know if she'd ever come out of it, or if she would have brain damage or be paralyzed when she came out of it, that would be almost as much reason for Suzaku to want revenge on Lelouch, and it would be one more bit of suspense for the audience.

You say: "If Euphie didn't die, there would be peace on Area 11, a peaceful place where Nunnaly and Lelouch is accepted and lives peacefully....
that would be the end of the story...."

But see my suggestion for a continuation of the story after peace in area 11, that I included in my original response to tophwoman01:

"Some people say that Euphemia had to die to prevent an outbreak of peace. But Lelouch and Suzaku could have been involved in other conflicts while the Japanese situation was calm for a while. Lelouch and what was left of the Black Knights could go to Area 14, for example and start a revolt there, funded by the Chinese government and the Euro Universe hoping to weaken Britannia (which is where I suspect most of the Kyoto group's money came from). Euphemia and Suzaku could be sent to Area 14 to respond. Suzaku could lead the fight against the Black Knights and the native rebels while Euphemia would reform the administration and make it kinder and more humane to dry up popular support for the rebels. If the rebellion faltered in Area 14 Lelouch and the Black Knights could go to Area 10 or Area 5 or Area 16 and try again. The natives of the various areas would say "Thank God we have Euphemia to show the Britannians how to be good to us and Zero to scare them into listening to her". And the series could have returned to Japan for the climax."

Here is another possibility. After the formation of the SAZ Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia and Suzaku settle down in the SAZ for an episode or two and then the Chinese Federation and/or the Euro Universe invade Japan to seize it from Britannia. The Japanese and the former Black Knights all disagree about which side to take and even the happy little group of Lelouch, Nunnally, Euphemia, and Suzaku splits and takes two, three, or four different paths in response to the crises. That could keep the action going for a whole season until another war or crises emerges.

You say: " As I have said, lelouch's first goal for helping the resistance is to give Nunnaly a peaceful place where they could live. A place that accepts them. And that's all. And Euphie's proposal will do.
If Euphie didn't die, Nunnaly won't become the Governor. Take a look on r2 episodes, when lelouch became confused if he have to continue being Zero and go against Nunnaly or leave Zero behind and live in accord with Nunnaly. That's the point when he realized that he had to continue being Zero because he's goal is now not only for Nunnaly but also for the whole Japan...."

I say that there is no way that Lelouch wants to give Nunnally a peaceful place to live. That is just his excuse for his furious drive to get revenge. Except for being blind and crippled and her mother being dead and missing old friends like Euphemia and Suzaku, Nunnally's life at Ashford Academy has been very peaceful and contented in the years prior to the first episode. About as good a life as a child can expect.

It is not necessary for Euphie to be dead for Nunnally to be the governor. Euphie not being the governor is all that is required of Euphie to have the office available for Nunnally.

And the scene in R2 where Lelouch realizes that he is dong it for Japan instead of for Nunnally (which is probably still just another rationalization for his revenge) does not need a dead Euphemia to work just as well. suppose that Lelouch used Euphemia as a hostage and spared her life. Suppose that the episode includes a news bulletin on Euphemia's condition nine months after the assassination attempt by vengeful Japanese. She is still in a coma with no indication of when or if she will ever recover. That would give Lelouch just as much reason to think about whether he want s to oppose Nunnally as he opposed Euphemia. And perhaps to feel a little guilty about lying about the geass command. And Nunnally just as much motive to carry on Euphemia's ideals as a tribute to her.

And Lelouch chose the wrong path when making that decision. If the Britannian-Chinese royal marriage had gone through two thirds of the human race would have been united and there would have been a good chance that the whole world would have been united soon. Despite the efforts of Britannian bigots the Britannians and the numbers would have merged into one equal people in two or three hundred years. And the peace would have lasted for hundreds of years or thousand of years or tens of thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years.

Instead Lelouch broke up the Chinese-Britannian marriage and prevented the Britannian conquest of the Earth. Once the exhaustion of the wars and the relief of the Zero Requiem wears off, it will be back to war as usual, with the best chance in thousands of years to unite the world and end war forever lost. If an average of ten thousand to one million people per year are killed, that will be ten million to one billion people every thousand years and ten billion to one trillion every million years.









You know what infinitycubed?
I really admire your sense of reasoning....
But because of it.... it seems that everything I said was wrong....

You said, " I think that if he came up with a battle plan which enabled them to capture the Tokyo settlement that night, as they did, that would prove his worth. And Zero was already so loved by the Japanese that Lelouch believed that if they saw Euphemia shoot Zero they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury and be mowed down by the hundreds. Who could ask for more esteem than that?"


During those episodes, Zero was just an emerging figure as Japanese Hero.
Do you remember Rakshata? She said something when Euphemia proclaimed the establishment of SAZ, she said (I don't exactly remember the words) "between a beloved princess and a masked rebel whose identity was known by no one, which would the people choose? tha masked man would definitely loose "
Aside from that, SAZ would definitely become a sucess because of the presence of Suzaku.

I also see the possibility that when, Zero was shot, the Japanese will go Crazy, but without Zero, will they win?


"Forgetting what you died when controlled by the geass is a sign that the geass control is over, and Euphemia seemed to be forgetting the massacre as she talked to Lelouch."
During the first episodes, when lelouch was trying to figure out the specs of his geass, he said to cc that not remebering the events before,during and aafter is part of his geass effect. take a look on the episode when he used geass on villetta or the others.


And regarding on the thing you said about blackmailing the emperor on going to area 11, as I have said, it is useless, why would he have to save Euphie's life if in the world he is creating, Euphie will be alive? Besides Cornelia ha no power over him or the emperor himself can persuade her into helping hin in his goal....

And another thing, there's no way the doctors would be able to hide Euphie's life in fooling Suzaku, because she died right in front of him.... And there's also no way that she would get to coma, because she was shot directly on the heart.

Oh and another thing, do you know the expression, "you cannot serve two gods at a time"?
that's why, Euphie should die because if she live then, Zero will be a subordinate which he hated the most, and if it will be Euphie to give way, the Britannia won't agree on it. Therefore, they could not work together. And, Lelouch and Nunnaly are royalties thrown away by the emperor, so there's no way of accepting them.


I can see your point, a thousand possibilities of what could've happened if Euphie didn't die, but can you think of a dramatic, regretful and hateful idea that could drive the characters as well as the viewers crazy, Better than this?


Unless you think that Lelouch overestimated the regard that the Japanese people had for him, his belief that they would attack the Britannians in suicidal fury means that Zero already had as much popularity as as necessary or perhaps even possible. Unless Lelouch did not believe that they would react with suicidal rage when he was shot. Perhaps he omitted for reasons of time to tell Euphie (and thus the audience) that his orders for her would also include making the soldiers attack the crowd. If the soldiers attacked the crowd and then chased them all though the town hunting them down they would be scattered when the Black Knights arrived and would be much easier to defeat. Of course that would mean that Lelouch was deliberately planning to cause something very similar to the Fuji massacre which actually happened.

If you don't want to believe that Lelouch was that evil you must believe that he believed -- probably accurately -- that he already had all the popularity he could need. And it is true that for a while Euphemia had even more popularity with the Japanese, but once Zero made her shoot him, or once he accidentally made her order a massacre her popularity would vanish and once again Zero would be the only hope of the Japanese.

By the way, if Rakshatta said that Euphie was a beloved princess, did she mean beloved by the Japanese? If so, how did she become beloved by the Japanese? Being beloved by the Japanese would seem to be implied by the statement that she would be trusted more than Zero. Or was Euphemia already beloved by almost everyone in the world before she came to Japan, perhaps due to her leading Brittannian relief efforts at various natural disasters (since she was the only Britannian leader who cared if millions died in the aftermath of natural disasters, no doubt)? That statement certainly gives a lot to speculate about.

I say that Zero was probably at his peak as a Japanese hero during those episodes. After all, his bloody Black Rebellion failed, and some may have heard rumors that it was his fault. Then, in the second season his invasion to liberate Japan was stopped at the Second Decisive Battle of Toyko when F.R.E.I.J.A. was used and millions died. After that, I suspect that millions of Japanese came to believe that with friends like Zero, who needed enemies.

You ask if the Japanese went crazy when Zero was shot, would they win? Lelouch also told Euphemia that when the Japanese people saw him miracously revive they would know that he and not Euphemia was their true messiah. So Llelouch planned to be unconscious and seemingly dead for some period of time after Euphemia shot him and then revive and take control of the rebellion. And just exactly how Leoluch planned to do that is a subject of much speculation.

I'm certain that Lelouch did not mean to say that while someone one was controlled by a geass he would forget things that he did earlier while controlled by the geass. If a doctor was ordered to operate on and save the life of someone who he wouldn't have saved without a geass command, it would be disastrous if halfway through the operation he forgot some of the steps he had already taken. Or an engineer geassed to make complex and sophisticated adjustments to some major piece of equipment. It would be very inefficient for Euphemia to order a massacre, forget about it, then order a massacre for the second time, forget about it, order a massacre for the third time, and so on. So the fact that Euphie forgot that she ordered a massacre indicates they she very probably was totally or almost totally out of the control of the geass.

I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. I said that if Euphemia was alive, whether as prisoner in Japan or already released, it would be very unlikely for the Emperor to come to Japan since he was hated thousands of times as much as Euphie was and even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And If Euphie had been killed in the revolt the Emperor would have been thousands of times less likely to do anything as foolish as coming to Japan. A live Euphemia was absolutely necessary for Lelouch's plan to have even a tiny chance of success.

I think that doctors could fake Euphie's death in front of Suzaku by giving her a drug that made her appear dead. And perhaps that was why they dragged him away as soon as she appeared to die, to keep him from examining her closely. I hope so. But that was not what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting that Lelouch's bullet would not kill her but put her in a coma, and that would give Suzaku almost as much reason to want revenge on Lelouch And Lelouch almost as much reason to ponder whether he wanted to oppose Nunnlly as he did Euphemia. Euphie was probably not shot in the heart, since her abdomen was covered with blood but her chest had no blood on it. Being shot in the head is not necessary to cause a coma. Patients who are operated on for various reasons and given anesthesia sometimes go into comas.

And I also suggested an alternate scenario in which Lelouch would capture her, not shoot her, and she would survive the Black Rebellion and its defeat, which otherwise would be the same as in the aired episodes. Then a few months later Euphie would be attacked by vengeful Japanese assassins. And nine months later when Lelouch was deciding what course to take, there would be reports that Euphie was still in a coma from the assassination attempt.

I believe the expression is that you cannot serve two masters. Anyway polytheists can serve many gods at the same time. And again a Code geass fan makes unwarranted assumptions such as Euphemia's survival is the same thing as as the SAZ plan going into effect. Even if the SAZ plan was ruined and the massacre started Euphie could survive if LeLouch decided not to kill her or Suzaku rescued her in the nick of time, etc. etc. After agreeing to the SAZ plan Lelouch said he would not serve under Euphemia (did she boss him around when they were children? who knows?). They didn't even get around to discussing important points such as whether Lelouch and the Black Knights would continue to revolt in other regions of Japan until all of Japan was made part of the SAZ.

I say it was a bad idea to kill Euphemia for its effect on the other characters, since Euphemia was better than all the other characters combined and without her the show is just evil people fighting each other.

NO I can't think of anything that would drive the views crazy more than that, It certainly has been driving me crazy for the last eight months since i saw episode 23. I think that episodes 22 and 23 are possibly the most evil tv episodes ever. Killing Euphemia has pretty much killed my interest in anime. I don't think that i will ever watch a new anime series again until there is a new Code Geass in which Euphemia comes back to life.








I do believe that lelouch is also evil. Why? Simply because he did evil things..... But you know, being the main character, it made him much preferable to the audience. But in fairness to him, he made the world peaceful after all.

On Rakshatta, i said that i don't completely remember the words, however, it may or may not be implied. Let me ask you something, if you were in the feet of the Japanese...... Would you choose An unknown man over a well known princess who has your late prime minister's son with her. I'm pretty sure that you would choose the latter. The answer is obvious (re-watch ep. 22 and you'll get my point). And I guess that would settle your argument on your 2nd paragraph.

It is true that Lelouch planned to pretend dead, to trigger the japanese into a great rebellion, unfortunately it happened the other way. The massacre did. But even so, it happened the same way as he planned. he gained the complete power over the japanese as he proclaim himself as the savior. If you are saying that zero's popularity is at it's peak, I must disagree. It's true that the japanese will throw themslves in suicidal fury when he was shot, not because he is popular but because it would only show how cruel the britannians are. That they cannot be trusted. Zero's popularity peak was after he killed Euphie.

About the geass's specs. Please do re-watch the episodes of the season 1 and you'll get my point. Especially when he used it on Vilhetta. And as far as i could remember, there was this episode when Jerimiah and Vilhetta were talking about it. Watch those and see for yourself. We will not have to argue on this matter anymore.

"I never said that a live Euphie would be used to blackmail the Emperor into coming to Japan. "
What about this?
And of course Lelouch needed a live Euphemia and Cornelia to keep even a tiny chance that the Emperor would visit Japan. Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to japan, he should have tried to make up for killing Clovis by faking Zero's death and having a "new" masked leader take over the Black knights. Or at the least he could have made one of the Kyoto group the puppet leader of the revolution, claiming to have firm control of Zero and not inviting Zero to the meeting with the Emperor, to reassure the Emperor that he was safe.

And Lelouch needed to have Cornelia and above all sweet little Euphie alive if the Emperor would feel safe coming to Japan. Surely Lelouch could not believe that the Emperor would just accept Japanese stories or even video footage of Euphemia ordering a massacre. Surely Lelouch would expect that the emperor would suspect that the Japanese had somehow forced the innocent Euphemia to order the massacre and had deliberately murdered her. And surely Lelouch should have expected that the Emperor would believe that anyone capable of murdering Euphemia would be a million times more likely to kill him.


Isn't that what you mean when you typed it?

And why would the doctors fake Euphemia's death in front of Suzaku? It's very illogical, Schneizer and even Cornelia have no contact with her during those times. Don't tell me that the doctors will decide for it themselves? Besides, Euphie don't have to die in order to freak Suzaku out, the fact that Zero hurt her or shot her was enough reason for him to go after Zero.

And another thing, after the massacre, Euphie's name marked in a very wrong way. If you were lelouch, would you like your first love to live a life, with everyone angry on her knowing that she killed a lot of people? With Euphie's character, would she stand that?

Let's go to the polytheist, do you think that their way of serving gods is applicable to the scenario? I already said the reason why they cannot work together, just dig it.

They may all appear evil but they all share good goals.

As for Euphie's death, it drove me crazy too...... In fact, I like her character. No wonder I chose her death as the most necessary. But it is, indeed.



beginning of infinitycubed's reponse. Why isn't this in a different box?

Lelouch did not make the world peaceful in the long term. The effects of the Zero Requiem will wear off soon. And I think that the United Federation of Nations, like the League of Nations or the United nations, will largely fail to keep the peace and then disband in a few decades or centuries, because it is mostly an effort by the people and leaders of the world to fool themselves that they don't have to give up the national independence they are addicted to for the sake of the everlasting peace that it is their duty to achieve.

I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people.

If Zero's popularity was at its peak after he killed Euphie it was because Euphie and her SAZ plan were discredited and Zero seemed the only hope for the Japanese, because Zero and the Black Knights rescued the surviving Japanese at Fuji and defeated the Britannians, because Zero and the Black Knights captured Tokyo, and because Zero killed Euphie. Killing Euphie was just one small part of the process which increased his popularity. It was merely "One small step forward for a plotter, one big fall for mankind". And he should have given up that small part of his popularity to use her as a hostage to gain some material benefit. Or because she deserved to live.

I said that lleouch needed a live Euphemia, in Japan or in Britannia, to lull the Emperor into a false sense of safety so he would have even the slightest chance of coming to japan. Even if Euphemia had not been killed, the Emperor would have been stupid to come to japan, since he should have realized that even people who wouldn't kill Euphie would kill him. And with her dead the chance that he would come to Japen would be much, much smaller. I said that a live Euphemie was needed to make the Emperor think it was safe to come to Japan, not to blackmail him to come to Japan.

Perhaps the doctors would fake Euphemia's death because VV pulled out his vision phone and had the Emperor give them a direct order to do so. That ought to work. When the doctors gave up on Euphie one of them said he would inform prince Sscheitzel. Perhaps he was informing Schenitzel that they were successfully faking Euphie's death. Perhaps Schenitzel, or VV, or Charles planned to hold the revived Euphemia a prisoner and taunt her about her failure to make Britannia a kinder and gentler realm.

Maybe Euphie would want to die after the massacre. But maybe she would be determined to do as much good as she possible could to win back her good name. And maybe she would want to hide somewhere for the rest of her life and hope that people would forget about her. And the Emperor might give her an important position like viceroy she would have to accept to do good for the people, despite all the unwelcome publicity she would get. And the emperor would accept the increased happiness she brought to millions of strangers in order to enjoy the increased unhappiness of Euphie, someone he knew. I say that the good of the many outweighs the good of the one, so Euphemia has to live no matter how often she wishes she was dead.

YOu say that Euphemia's death was the most necessary. I say it was perhaps the most necessary to have the Code Geass that we have, but the least necessary to have a good code Geass, or one that I would like.







. . + maybe they are running out of box........ hehehehehehe


I agree.... "the effect of Zero Requiem will wear off soon".... because there is no permanent thing here on Earth except change, right?
But on your statement: "I say that by preventing the Britannian conquest and unification of the world Lelouch doomed the world to countless thousands or millions of years of wars, and that he is responsible for the future deaths of millions or billions or trillions of people."
I must disagree.... on the storyline.... do you think that Brtiannia wants to conquer the world in order to unite all nations?
I think not.... it was clearly stated there that Charles started wars in order that CC would show up.... in order for him and VV and Marianne to start the Ragnarok Conjunction

If you don't think that it was after Euphie's death that Zero had his popularity peak.... then when was it?

VV and Charles know what was happening during those times so, it is definitely not Charles nor VV who will take action to fake Euphie's death.... Do you remember the scene on episode 23 or 22 when Charles was laughing out loud at the sword of akasha saying " You deserve to be called my child".... to whom do you think he was saying that?
While to Schneizel..... remember....there was a signal interference during those times making communication very hard. That is also the reason why the media can not cut the broadcast of the massacre.

Not because the best character died....it means that the whole story was bad.....
Can't you see, that in spite of the fact that they all did evil things in order to achieve their goals.... the story still showed that human in nature is good.....
that they are all victims of unwanted circumstances going on around them.... that the evil actions they have taken were inevitable.....
the process was evil .... but the product is peace, a matter of good

To Euphie's death......
Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....



I don't care what motive Charles had for conquest, or what motive the other Britannians had for supporting his conquests. If Charles' Ragnarok plan was foiled and the new emperor wanted to keep on conquering for whatever reasons, Britannia would keep on conquering, and possibly conquer and/or negotiate union with, the rest of the world. Thus ending war forever. .

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high, but then the Black rebellion was crushed and there may have been a lot of rumors that zero had abandoned his forces during the crisis, which should have lowered his popularity somewhat.. Then his popularity may have gradually declined as the Japanese suffered harsher rule in the year between the first and the second seasons and some blamed it on Zero for starting the Black Rebellion. So possibly Zero's popularity was no higher or even less than it was before killing Euphie.

Anyway, Zero's popularity surge at the end of the first season was largely due to rescuing the survivors of the Fuji massacre (little did they know that he had been planning to cause a similar slaughter), defeating the Britannians, and leading the capture of the Tokyo Settlement. Killing Euphemia merely caused part of his popularity surge.

A reason on for Charles to fake Euphie's death. Annoyed by her kindness and gentleness, Charles had her given super human strength, speed, and ability to recover from injuries, trained as an assassin, and brainwashed to have a second personality that would be activated by secret codes to carry out assassinations unknown to Euphie's true self. So when she was serious wounded Charles ordered the doctors to fake her death for Suzaku and had VV use the secret codes to activate her assassin personality. No doubt after she recovered Charles had the assassin personality kill various random Japanese people in front of witnesses, starting rumors that Euphie's ghost was killing people and further blackening her name. Then he kept her assassin personality in control of her body full time, since Euphie was believed dead. But she kept escaping from the control of her brainwashing and Charles had to use the secret codes to regain control of her more and more often, until he was killed. Then she escaped from her brainwashing about the time of the series ending.

And if there was an R3 Charles could reappear, having faked his own death to see what would happen, and now intent on taking the Britannian throne from Nunnally. In the final confrontation, when Charles seemed trapped, he would use the secret codes on Euphemia to make her kill his enemies, But she would fight against the brainwashing and regain control of her body, and take Charles into custody.

I don't know how you can say that Code Geass showed that Human nature was good. I believe that of all the named characters only Euphemia, Shirely, Milly and Rivalez, and perhaps a few lesser characters, never did anything evil or never were parts of teams that included evildoers. If you took Code Geass as a guide then you would have to believe that ninety percent of all adults and fifty percent of all teenagers are evil.

Humans are good most of the time, but when they are organized into groups with military potential they use that military potential against other groups far too often.

The actions people take are not inevitable. Especially not in an alternate universe story. The only scientific justification for the concept of alternate universes is the many worlds variation of quantum mechanics, and that postulates countless alternate universes branching off every second. So there should be gazillions of alternate universes branching off every second in Code Geass. The number of alternate universes in which a person chooses to do a specific action will depend on the probability that he will chose that action, and the probablity that he will chose that action can be determined by countng how many alternate universes he chooses it in.

you say that the process was evil but the end result was peace, which was good.

The process of the Britannian conquest of the world would have been evil, but the end result would have been peace, which would have been good. And I think that the Britannian peace would last a lot longer than the peace after the Zero Requiem.

Of course, "everyone deserves to live but it doesn't mean that everyone should live", especially when the world you're going to live doesn't want you anymore....

I believe that almost everyone deserves to die, but that's no reason to kill almost everyone. Andy why does everyone assume that Euphemia would have been so universally hated after the Fuji Massacre? Was the Fuji Massacre worse than Cornelia's Saitema Ghetto massacre? And what about all the millions of people killed in all the wars of Emperor Charles? Didn't he surivve for years while being hated much more than Euphie? Did the Fuji Massacre make Euphie hated worse than Stalin and Genghis Khan and Tamerlane were hated ten or fifteen years before their deaths?






Do you think that through oppression or state negotiations, war could be ended forever or world peace would be achieved?
i think not....

men never stop wanting anything....

Even today....
though we are having state unions or any association or organizations or whatever thing you're gonna call it which imposes the unity of countries all over the world.... cold wars and wars do occur.....

I believe in the saying,"the only permanent thing here on earth is change". A state will not remain at peace forever....
Oppression or state union, the result it would bring will eventually wear off as time pass by....


Going back.......

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high
you already said it, Zero's popularity peak was after shooting Euphie. As far as i could remember, we are arguing about when was it, disregarding the fact if it descend or ascend.... it doesn't matter, anyway.

Regarding the story you have made....
it impressed me....
i think it would be a good catch if the R2 would be remade.

but there is one tiny problem....
Charles is no God, he can possibly do brainwashing, but the part in which he is giving Euphie extraordinary abilities.... impossible
And I cannot think of how, Euphie's character would react to that?
And what would be her contribution to the war between lelouch and schneizel?


Human Nature.....

What do you think is reason why some things are regarded evil?
My answer: It is because, people think so....

If the people of Japan think that the oppression done by the Britannians are good, would they revolt?
Everything just depends on one's state of mind or one's own point of view....

If one thinks that he is being taken advantage, he would definitely fight....
but if he thinks that he is benifitting, he would definitely support.....

no thing is really and completely evil....
Remember what Athrun had once said.... "Wars occur because men has different ways of achieving one goal"
All of us aim peace but we have different ways on how we are going to achieve it....
Men are just doing what they think is right....


And there is no man here on earth that would like he, himself to be called evil....


On your last paragraph....
it is true that Charles had survived the hatred of the people around him.... and it is because he has strong personality..... anyway, he doesn't need approval for when the Ragnarok succeed he won't need to mind them....

To Euphemia.....
I can see that you are a great fan....
But if you are to write a story.... you should consider one's character.... in order to have consistency at the story and to keep the character's pesonality solid and distinct...
As I view Euphie's character in series .... I think that she is the type of character which won't be able to stand the hatred of the person around her....
So it is better that she rest in peace
or change her character a bit and she will survive.....


Yes I think that it is possible for some kind of world government or empire to to keep the peace forever. The ancient Romans, for example, conquered a lot of warlike tribes and nations and disarmed them and demilitarized their societies. After a few centuries the provincials were so unwarlike that when the Roman armies crumbled small armies of thousands of barbarians were able to conquer millions of provincials. Of course the ancient Romans didn't have the power of a modern government to affect social attitudes with mass media.

A modern world government, if it was smart, would discourage or prohibit movies and tv shows about rebel heroes and encourage movies and tv shows about conquering heroes and heroes who defeated rebellions, as well as brave firefighters and policemen. It would encourage movies and tv shows about people who were kind and gentle to everyone, who got what they wanted by trading and negociation and wanted to help those they were dealing with, stories in which even the antagonists or villains were a lot nicer and kinder than most of the heroes in older stories.

And it would try to make life as kind and pleasant as possible for all the children and teenagers in the world, so that they would not be toughened by harsh experiences and ready to fight for what they wanted when they were old enough to -- and it would take all the credit it could for making their lives gentler and remind them from time to time that they owe a lot to the world government.

And it wold try to increase the prosperity of everyone in the world so that they would be too comfortable to want to risk their lives in war. As people get richer they get more peaceful, so any rational world government would want to speed up the spread of wealth throughout the world.

And it would try to find a "moral equivalent of war" (which itself is sort of a continuation of the group hunts for large game that thousands of generations of our ancestors spent their lives in). Such as televised sports and projects to "defeat" diseases and famines and natural disasters and other inanimate enemies of humanity. And "attacking" potentially dangerous Earth-crossing asteroids, moving them into safer orbits which are also convenient for mining their resources to ship to Earth and increase the total wealth of the Human race.

So after a few centuries the world's peoples should be at least as tame and unwarlike as the Roman provincials were by the end of the Empire.

Of course such a world government would be a lot more like the Britannian Empire in the hypothetical reign of Empress Euphemia than in the reign of Charles!

And in the meantime the world government would try to contain all rebellions by destroying the international arms trade, destroying weapons factories and breaking up the organizations which traded in weapons, and inventing better and better ways to detect and destroy hidden weapons as the world is disarmed. The rebellions which would occur would be strong enough to cause exciting news stories from time to time but not to endanger the world government any more than the Indians Wars in the US West or the colonial wars and rebellions in the British Empire endangered those governments.

Anyway, it doesn''t matter how popular Zero was after shooting Euphie, since a large part of that popularity was fr
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I cannot see my reply on the quoted post so I typed this reply (again) on a separate box....

Everybody wants a peaceful world to live in....
Unfortunately, that world only exists on romantic novels and fictitous stories....
The world you are trying to portray is so idealistic....
So idealistic that it is impossible to put up....

I am not trying to be pessimistic or anything, but as a inhabitant of this world, I learned to accept the fact that there is no such perfect thing in this world that could last forever (even those imperfect are not exempted).... and as you know, peace is a perfect thing....

You have mentioned about the Roman Empire.... I am not very familiar about its history.... but one thing is for sure.... it didn't contain the peace it had over the years....

And about the thing you have proposed.... on how to achieve world peace....
Do you think it is applicable today?
Easy to say but hard to do....

Our country's government is imposing laws, programs and projects for the welfare of its citizen....
But it is still not working, even the most progressive country here in the world doesn't have the so called "peace"
So, if that is the case.... if a country couldn't contain it, how much more the whole world which the countries in it has a lot of differences?
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shivre wrote:

I cannot see my reply on the quoted post so I typed this reply (again) on a separate box....

Everybody wants a peaceful world to live in....
Unfortunately, that world only exists on romantic novels and fictitous stories....
The world you are trying to portray is so idealistic....
So idealistic that it is impossible to put up....

I am not trying to be pessimistic or anything, but as a inhabitant of this world, I learned to accept the fact that there is no such perfect thing in this world that could last forever (even those imperfect are not exempted).... and as you know, peace is a perfect thing....

You have mentioned about the Roman Empire.... I am not very familiar about its history.... but one thing is for sure.... it didn't contain the peace it had over the years....

And about the thing you have proposed.... on how to achieve world peace....
Do you think it is applicable today?
Easy to say but hard to do....

Our country's government is imposing laws, programs and projects for the welfare of its citizen....
But it is still not working, even the most progressive country here in the world doesn't have the so called "peace"
So, if that is the case.... if a country couldn't contain it, how much more the whole world which the countries in it has a lot of differences?


I also had a lot of trouble getting my latest responses to intact. They kept disappearing when i "saved" them. I guess we went over the limit somehow.

I don't know if peace is perfection, and I don't know if eternal peace is possible, but I do know that it is worth trying to achieve.

A lot of people say that Hitler was the most evil man in history because he murdered ten million people in death camps ( not concentration camps) including six million Jews and millions of other "undesirable" people. But I say that Hitler did something infinitely worse. He desired that Germany would be an independent country in a world full of other independent countries forever.

Forever means for an infinite amount of time. An infinite amount of time is more than a million years, more than a billion years, more than a trillion years, more than a quadrillion years, more than a googolplex of years.

Suppose that over the course of infinite time, an average of one thousand Germans and non Germans would be killed in wars between Germany and other countries every year. The total number killed would be infinity times a thousand, or more than a million, more than a billion, more than a trillion, more than a quadrillion,more than a googolplex of victims, more than any number you can imagine.

Now suppose that the average number of persons killed in wars between Germany and other countries averages just one in every thousand years. That would total infinity divided by a thousand, or one million times less than the previous number. But it would still be more than a million, more than a billion, more than a trillion, more than a quadrillion, more than a googlolplex of victims, more than any number you can imagine.

Of course no country can last forever. But if If one out of every million to one out of every thousand natives of that country die in wars in an average year, the war dead will equal the total average population of the country in one thousand to one million years.

Euphemia was under a geass compulsion to kill an unknown number of Japanese, Perhaps just a few thousand in the stadium. Perhaps all the millions of Japanese in the world. Lelouch and the Black Knights planned to make Japan an independent nation again and no doubt most of them hoped that Japan would stay independent for countless ages to come. Which meant that in the next big war in a few decades or so probably more Japanese would be killed than Euphie was trying to kill if she was only compelled to kill those in the stadium, and in one thousand to one million years more Japanese would be killed than Euphie was trying to kill even if she was compelled to kill all Japanese everywhere. And then countless more Japanese would be killed in future wars if the wishes of Japanese patriots came true.

If Lelouch and the Black Knights thought that it was right to kill Euphie because she was trying to kill somewhere between a few thousand Japanese and all the millions of Japanese who were then alive, why didn't they kill themselves? They were trying to create a situation in which many, many millions more Japanese would be killed than merely the total number who were alive at the moment, which was the maximum number that Euphemia might have been trying to kill.

I say that trying to find some way to unite the would by peaceful negotiation and/or by conquest is far better than letting your country and all the other countries of the world keep the power to make war. Even if no world government is permanent and each of them falls apart after a few thousands of years, the memory of thousands of years of peace might inspire the formation of new world governments after thousands of wars of war. A future with a cycle in which world governments keep the peace for twenty five or fifty or seventy five percent of the time may have thousands and millions and billions and trillions of people killed in wars in the intervals between world governments, but they would be significantly fewer thousands and millions and billions and trillions of people than in a future without even one world government ever where there never is even a single interval of even one thousand years of peace.

You say our government is making laws for the good of the people but it isn't working. You should get in a time machine and see how your two parents and your four grandparents and your eight great grandparents and your sixteen great great grandparents and so on lived when they were your age. Americans don't appreciate how many political revolutions they have benefited from, because most of those revolutions were accomplished by ordinary political processes and not by (much) bloodshed.

Take free, universal, and mandatory public education, paid for with taxes on real estate, which was the main form of wealth when public education was introduced. The well to do and the wealthy were taxed for the sake of the lower middle classes and the poor, and countless millions of poor people used their educations to raise themselves into the lower middle class, and countless millions of lower middle class people used their educations to raise themselves into the upper middle class, and so on, to say nothing of all the advances achieved for the benefit of everyone by thousands and millions of people who would never have been educated except for that great but little remembered revolution.

And if you think that the U.S. government is too big to work well to benefit the people, remember the Roman practice of divide and rule. It meant that most of the Roman Empire consisted of hundreds and thousands of city states, governed by magistrates elected by the voters, who included all the free men in most cases. It is quite possible that a world government would divide the world into thousands of primary political units which would have a much smaller population than the US to rule.

For example, if the Eastern Roman or Byzantine Empire was revived and conquered the world, it might divide China into democratic political units corresponding in size and location to the Chinese "counties", which might have the right to associate in larger units of a size specified by the Byzantine government. Above the counties and their associations there would be rulers appointed by the Byzantine government as vassals or agents of the central government. The Byzantine Basilius Kai Autocratar (really, really, really great king and Emperor) might grant the mandate of heaven to a descendant, (if one could be found) of the legendary Hsia dynasty to rule as a Byzantine vassal for a number of years, and then grant the mandate to an heir, if one could be found, of the first historical dynasty, the Shang, for a number of years, and then to an heir, if one could be found, of the Chou dynasty and then in turn to an heir, if one could be found, to the Ch'in or Qin dynasty, the first imperial dynasty, to which the Byzantine rank of Basilius, (without autocrator) would be given to mark his subimperial status, and then to a descendant of the Han dynasty, and so on up to the Ching Dynasty, and then back to the Hsia dynasty again.

And the rulers of Vietnam and Japan, who also claimed to be emperors, would be made subordinate to the Chinese Basilius and be given the next lower Byzantine rank, Despotes, while most vassals of the Chinese ruler would be given the much lower rank of king.

The trouble with the Roman Empire was that it didn't rule the whole whole world and eventually its neighbors started to invade it for hundreds of years. In the Third Century AD the Mediterrainian world was invaded by horde after horde of Germanic barbarians while the Neo-Persian Empire of the Sassanians invaded from the East. If the Mediterrainian world of Classical civilization had still been divided into tens or hundreds of independent countries it would have certainly been conquered and divided up by the Sassanians and the Germanic barbarians. The Roman Empire saved the Classical world during the Third Century crisis, which was also marked by constant rebellions by the soldiers who overthrew emperor after emperor, the formation of breakaway empires in the east and the west which were eventually conquered by the central Roman Empire, devaluation of the coinage and other monetary problems, plagues, etc., etc. After surviving the terrible crisis of the Third Century the weakened Roman Empire continued to be invaded from time to time by less dangerous barbarians until the Western Roman Empire was taken over by various German barbarians in the Fifth Century. But the Eastern Roman Empire struck back and recovered half of the Western Roman Empire in the reign of Justinian, but a terrible plague in the 540's spread devastation and halted his efforts.

Then in the early 600s there was the most terrible and destructive Roman-Persian war of all, followed by the Arab invasions of the near east and Northern Africa. But the Eastern Roman Empire recovered and by 1025 it was about a third as large as the entire Roman Empire under Trajan had been 900 years earlier, before it began to decline again.

A world government without any foreign invaders to worry about should do far better at keeping the peace.
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Here I quote shivre's last reply from above:

Do you think that through oppression or state negotiations, war could be ended forever or world peace would be achieved?
i think not....

men never stop wanting anything....

Even today....
though we are having state unions or any association or organizations or whatever thing you're gonna call it which imposes the unity of countries all over the world.... cold wars and wars do occur.....

I believe in the saying,"the only permanent thing here on earth is change". A state will not remain at peace forever....
Oppression or state union, the result it would bring will eventually wear off as time pass by....


Going back.......

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high
you already said it, Zero's popularity peak was after shooting Euphie. As far as i could remember, we are arguing about when was it, disregarding the fact if it descend or ascend.... it doesn't matter, anyway.

Regarding the story you have made....
it impressed me....
i think it would be a good catch if the R2 would be remade.

but there is one tiny problem....
Charles is no God, he can possibly do brainwashing, but the part in which he is giving Euphie extraordinary abilities.... impossible
And I cannot think of how, Euphie's character would react to that?
And what would be her contribution to the war between lelouch and schneizel?


Human Nature.....

What do you think is reason why some things are regarded evil?
My answer: It is because, people think so....

If the people of Japan think that the oppression done by the Britannians are good, would they revolt?
Everything just depends on one's state of mind or one's own point of view....

If one thinks that he is being taken advantage, he would definitely fight....
but if he thinks that he is benifitting, he would definitely support.....

no thing is really and completely evil....
Remember what Athrun had once said.... "Wars occur because men has different ways of achieving one goal"
All of us aim peace but we have different ways on how we are going to achieve it....
Men are just doing what they think is right....


And there is no man here on earth that would like he, himself to be called evil....



On your last paragraph....
it is true that Charles had survived the hatred of the people around him.... and it is because he has strong personality..... anyway, he doesn't need approval for when the Ragnarok succeed he won't need to mind them....

To Euphemia.....
I can see that you are a great fan....
But if you are to write a story.... you should consider one's character.... in order to have consistency at the story and to keep the character's pesonality solid and distinct...
As I view Euphie's character in series .... I think that she is the type of character which won't be able to stand the hatred of the person around her....
So it is better that she rest in peace
or change her character a bit and she will survive.....


Beginning of Infinitycubed's reply:

I didn't mean to suggest that Charles would personally rebuild Euphie and brainwash her as an assassin.

I was suggesting that as in The Bionic Woman, Ghost in the Shell, Gunslinger Girl, or a host of other cyborg stories, the political leader would have his mad, or at least rather bad, scientists, doctors, technicians, etc. rebuild people with greater strength and speed to serve as assassins, and brainwash them so that second, assassin personalities would take over their bodies when the secret codes were used on them. And perhaps they would also, somehow, make their super assassins super resistant to injuries and able to revive from seeming death, to protect their investment of time, money and effort. Charles may be a little displeased to hear that his assassins are not likely to get killed permanently in his service, but consoles himself that most of their real personalities will feel highly ashamed and guilty if they ever find out what they have been made to do.

About Euphemia bearing the hostility of those around her, I heard that in the Zero Requiem Lelouch revealed that he made Euphemia order the Fuji Massacre. Thus Euphemia would no longer be hated by the world after about a year.

And I think it would be very hard for those around Euphemia, those whose hostility would be the most painful for her, to keep on hating her after many weeks or months of constant contact with her normal personality.

And of course, in different possible plot lines Euphie might be locked up in a Japanese prison guarded by fierce Black Knights, kept in seclusion in Britannia and often visited by a few people who love her, sent on a space mission which will last thousands of years but will only seem like a year or two to her due to time dilation and/or suspended animation, returning to an Earth where nobody hates her anymore, or on the run with Suzaku, being the most wanted fugitive in the world, etc. etc. All with her being loved or hated in different degrees by the people around her.
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Posted 7/28/09
i think the least necessary was the death of euphy...
i think it's the biggest mistake on the part of lelouch...
i'm still wondering why he did that...

but the most necessary of all the deaths was that of lelouch himself..
well even without reading the manga series of code geass, the flow of the story at the end is obvious..(but i heard that lelouch is still alive in the manga series...is it correct?)
if they decided for lelouch to stay alive even until the end of the anime series then it will be boring!!
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Posted 7/28/09 , edited 7/28/09
I belive Lelouchs death was the the most important though i hate to admit it i love just as i love Light. Crazy or not they both came close to there goals, well Lelouch acheive his lol.i rooted for them both so yeah lol like me it or not who cares. lesst important Detard hate that traitorous bastard.
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Posted 7/29/09
Euphy's has to be the most valuable... without it, the anime would of ended at season 1.
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Posted 8/2/09

infinitycubed wrote:


shivre wrote:

I cannot see my reply on the quoted post so I typed this reply (again) on a separate box....

Everybody wants a peaceful world to live in....
Unfortunately, that world only exists on romantic novels and fictitous stories....
The world you are trying to portray is so idealistic....
So idealistic that it is impossible to put up....

I am not trying to be pessimistic or anything, but as a inhabitant of this world, I learned to accept the fact that there is no such perfect thing in this world that could last forever (even those imperfect are not exempted).... and as you know, peace is a perfect thing....

You have mentioned about the Roman Empire.... I am not very familiar about its history.... but one thing is for sure.... it didn't contain the peace it had over the years....

And about the thing you have proposed.... on how to achieve world peace....
Do you think it is applicable today?
Easy to say but hard to do....

Our country's government is imposing laws, programs and projects for the welfare of its citizen....
But it is still not working, even the most progressive country here in the world doesn't have the so called "peace"
So, if that is the case.... if a country couldn't contain it, how much more the whole world which the countries in it has a lot of differences?


I also had a lot of trouble getting my latest responses to intact. They kept disappearing when i "saved" them. I guess we went over the limit somehow.

I don't know if peace is perfection, and I don't know if eternal peace is possible, but I do know that it is worth trying to achieve.

A lot of people say that Hitler was the most evil man in history because he murdered ten million people in death camps ( not concentration camps) including six million Jews and millions of other "undesirable" people. But I say that Hitler did something infinitely worse. He desired that Germany would be an independent country in a world full of other independent countries forever.

Forever means for an infinite amount of time. An infinite amount of time is more than a million years, more than a billion years, more than a trillion years, more than a quadrillion years, more than a googolplex of years.

Suppose that over the course of infinite time, an average of one thousand Germans and non Germans would be killed in wars between Germany and other countries every year. The total number killed would be infinity times a thousand, or more than a million, more than a billion, more than a trillion, more than a quadrillion,more than a googolplex of victims, more than any number you can imagine.

Now suppose that the average number of persons killed in wars between Germany and other countries averages just one in every thousand years. That would total infinity divided by a thousand, or one million times less than the previous number. But it would still be more than a million, more than a billion, more than a trillion, more than a quadrillion, more than a googlolplex of victims, more than any number you can imagine.

Of course no country can last forever. But if If one out of every million to one out of every thousand natives of that country die in wars in an average year, the war dead will equal the total average population of the country in one thousand to one million years.

Euphemia was under a geass compulsion to kill an unknown number of Japanese, Perhaps just a few thousand in the stadium. Perhaps all the millions of Japanese in the world. Lelouch and the Black Knights planned to make Japan an independent nation again and no doubt most of them hoped that Japan would stay independent for countless ages to come. Which meant that in the next big war in a few decades or so probably more Japanese would be killed than Euphie was trying to kill if she was only compelled to kill those in the stadium, and in one thousand to one million years more Japanese would be killed than Euphie was trying to kill even if she was compelled to kill all Japanese everywhere. And then countless more Japanese would be killed in future wars if the wishes of Japanese patriots came true.

If Lelouch and the Black Knights thought that it was right to kill Euphie because she was trying to kill somewhere between a few thousand Japanese and all the millions of Japanese who were then alive, why didn't they kill themselves? They were trying to create a situation in which many, many millions more Japanese would be killed than merely the total number who were alive at the moment, which was the maximum number that Euphemia might have been trying to kill.

I say that trying to find some way to unite the would by peaceful negotiation and/or by conquest is far better than letting your country and all the other countries of the world keep the power to make war. Even if no world government is permanent and each of them falls apart after a few thousands of years, the memory of thousands of years of peace might inspire the formation of new world governments after thousands of wars of war. A future with a cycle in which world governments keep the peace for twenty five or fifty or seventy five percent of the time may have thousands and millions and billions and trillions of people killed in wars in the intervals between world governments, but they would be significantly fewer thousands and millions and billions and trillions of people than in a future without even one world government ever where there never is even a single interval of even one thousand years of peace.

You say our government is making laws for the good of the people but it isn't working. You should get in a time machine and see how your two parents and your four grandparents and your eight great grandparents and your sixteen great great grandparents and so on lived when they were your age. Americans don't appreciate how many political revolutions they have benefited from, because most of those revolutions were accomplished by ordinary political processes and not by (much) bloodshed.

Take free, universal, and mandatory public education, paid for with taxes on real estate, which was the main form of wealth when public education was introduced. The well to do and the wealthy were taxed for the sake of the lower middle classes and the poor, and countless millions of poor people used their educations to raise themselves into the lower middle class, and countless millions of lower middle class people used their educations to raise themselves into the upper middle class, and so on, to say nothing of all the advances achieved for the benefit of everyone by thousands and millions of people who would never have been educated except for that great but little remembered revolution.

And if you think that the U.S. government is too big to work well to benefit the people, remember the Roman practice of divide and rule. It meant that most of the Roman Empire consisted of hundreds and thousands of city states, governed by magistrates elected by the voters, who included all the free men in most cases. It is quite possible that a world government would divide the world into thousands of primary political units which would have a much smaller population than the US to rule.

For example, if the Eastern Roman or Byzantine Empire was revived and conquered the world, it might divide China into democratic political units corresponding in size and location to the Chinese "counties", which might have the right to associate in larger units of a size specified by the Byzantine government. Above the counties and their associations there would be rulers appointed by the Byzantine government as vassals or agents of the central government. The Byzantine Basilius Kai Autocratar (really, really, really great king and Emperor) might grant the mandate of heaven to a descendant, (if one could be found) of the legendary Hsia dynasty to rule as a Byzantine vassal for a number of years, and then grant the mandate to an heir, if one could be found, of the first historical dynasty, the Shang, for a number of years, and then to an heir, if one could be found, of the Chou dynasty and then in turn to an heir, if one could be found, to the Ch'in or Qin dynasty, the first imperial dynasty, to which the Byzantine rank of Basilius, (without autocrator) would be given to mark his subimperial status, and then to a descendant of the Han dynasty, and so on up to the Ching Dynasty, and then back to the Hsia dynasty again.

And the rulers of Vietnam and Japan, who also claimed to be emperors, would be made subordinate to the Chinese Basilius and be given the next lower Byzantine rank, Despotes, while most vassals of the Chinese ruler would be given the much lower rank of king.

The trouble with the Roman Empire was that it didn't rule the whole whole world and eventually its neighbors started to invade it for hundreds of years. In the Third Century AD the Mediterrainian world was invaded by horde after horde of Germanic barbarians while the Neo-Persian Empire of the Sassanians invaded from the East. If the Mediterrainian world of Classical civilization had still been divided into tens or hundreds of independent countries it would have certainly been conquered and divided up by the Sassanians and the Germanic barbarians. The Roman Empire saved the Classical world during the Third Century crisis, which was also marked by constant rebellions by the soldiers who overthrew emperor after emperor, the formation of breakaway empires in the east and the west which were eventually conquered by the central Roman Empire, devaluation of the coinage and other monetary problems, plagues, etc., etc. After surviving the terrible crisis of the Third Century the weakened Roman Empire continued to be invaded from time to time by less dangerous barbarians until the Western Roman Empire was taken over by various German barbarians in the Fifth Century. But the Eastern Roman Empire struck back and recovered half of the Western Roman Empire in the reign of Justinian, but a terrible plague in the 540's spread devastation and halted his efforts.

Then in the early 600s there was the most terrible and destructive Roman-Persian war of all, followed by the Arab invasions of the near east and Northern Africa. But the Eastern Roman Empire recovered and by 1025 it was about a third as large as the entire Roman Empire under Trajan had been 900 years earlier, before it began to decline again.

A world government without any foreign invaders to worry about should do far better at keeping the peace.




Yes, we have reach the limit....
because from the main topic of this forum post....
we have wandered to different other topics....


According to my Sociology professor, Peace is classified under the culture classification called Mores, which refers to the highest and lowest of things....
highest things which are "too good to be true"
lowest of things which are the worst thing man could ever commit

And I believe that, because life has never been peaceful....
As I see it....


Hitler's goal in his conquest is not to make Germany an independent country but to establish his country and his countrymen as the superior race in the world....
he has this mentality of Ethnocentrism.


During the massacre, the black knights have no idea at all about the geass, so why would they kill themselves? And if they did.... would Japan achieve freedom?
Remember that because of Lelouch, and his death, if he is really dead, Japan achieved freedom.



"I say that trying to find some way to unite the would by peaceful negotiation and/or by conquest is far better than letting your country and all the other countries of the world keep the power to make war."



Isn't it, that there is world union through World organizations such as the U.N. etc.?
Which implemented a regulation on arms production? But believe it or not some countries around the world are secretly mass producing....
So tell me, if that is the attitude of some countries.... would they accept a proposed world government?

And if ever we have such, the world may be put into much agitation instead of what you have envisioned as peace....
Because different citizen of different countries would want the highest position so bad that it may result into war....
For being the highest leader of the World government is like being the "King of the World"
And I am sure a lot of greedy people and hungry for power will definitely want that position....
It may also put discrimination.... because the citizens of the country where the highest leader of that world government may be regarded as superior.... which is no different with the goal of Hitler....
The world government you are proposing is like conquering the whole world in a manner which looks legal....
People around the world have different ways of thinking.... So you will never know how will they react on such situation....


Your proposal about how would the world government will govern this big world is well thought
but that would only happen if men learned to let go their material want.... a mores
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Posted 8/2/09

infinitycubed wrote:

Here I quote shivre's last reply from above:

Do you think that through oppression or state negotiations, war could be ended forever or world peace would be achieved?
i think not....

men never stop wanting anything....

Even today....
though we are having state unions or any association or organizations or whatever thing you're gonna call it which imposes the unity of countries all over the world.... cold wars and wars do occur.....

I believe in the saying,"the only permanent thing here on earth is change". A state will not remain at peace forever....
Oppression or state union, the result it would bring will eventually wear off as time pass by....


Going back.......

Possibly framing Euphie and shooting her caused Zero's popularity to reach an all time high
you already said it, Zero's popularity peak was after shooting Euphie. As far as i could remember, we are arguing about when was it, disregarding the fact if it descend or ascend.... it doesn't matter, anyway.

Regarding the story you have made....
it impressed me....
i think it would be a good catch if the R2 would be remade.

but there is one tiny problem....
Charles is no God, he can possibly do brainwashing, but the part in which he is giving Euphie extraordinary abilities.... impossible
And I cannot think of how, Euphie's character would react to that?
And what would be her contribution to the war between lelouch and schneizel?


Human Nature.....

What do you think is reason why some things are regarded evil?
My answer: It is because, people think so....

If the people of Japan think that the oppression done by the Britannians are good, would they revolt?
Everything just depends on one's state of mind or one's own point of view....

If one thinks that he is being taken advantage, he would definitely fight....
but if he thinks that he is benifitting, he would definitely support.....

no thing is really and completely evil....
Remember what Athrun had once said.... "Wars occur because men has different ways of achieving one goal"
All of us aim peace but we have different ways on how we are going to achieve it....
Men are just doing what they think is right....


And there is no man here on earth that would like he, himself to be called evil....



On your last paragraph....
it is true that Charles had survived the hatred of the people around him.... and it is because he has strong personality..... anyway, he doesn't need approval for when the Ragnarok succeed he won't need to mind them....

To Euphemia.....
I can see that you are a great fan....
But if you are to write a story.... you should consider one's character.... in order to have consistency at the story and to keep the character's pesonality solid and distinct...
As I view Euphie's character in series .... I think that she is the type of character which won't be able to stand the hatred of the person around her....
So it is better that she rest in peace
or change her character a bit and she will survive.....


Beginning of Infinitycubed's reply:

I didn't mean to suggest that Charles would personally rebuild Euphie and brainwash her as an assassin.

I was suggesting that as in The Bionic Woman, Ghost in the Shell, Gunslinger Girl, or a host of other cyborg stories, the political leader would have his mad, or at least rather bad, scientists, doctors, technicians, etc. rebuild people with greater strength and speed to serve as assassins, and brainwash them so that second, assassin personalities would take over their bodies when the secret codes were used on them. And perhaps they would also, somehow, make their super assassins super resistant to injuries and able to revive from seeming death, to protect their investment of time, money and effort. Charles may be a little displeased to hear that his assassins are not likely to get killed permanently in his service, but consoles himself that most of their real personalities will feel highly ashamed and guilty if they ever find out what they have been made to do.

About Euphemia bearing the hostility of those around her, I heard that in the Zero Requiem Lelouch revealed that he made Euphemia order the Fuji Massacre. Thus Euphemia would no longer be hated by the world after about a year.

And I think it would be very hard for those around Euphemia, those whose hostility would be the most painful for her, to keep on hating her after many weeks or months of constant contact with her normal personality.

And of course, in different possible plot lines Euphie might be locked up in a Japanese prison guarded by fierce Black Knights, kept in seclusion in Britannia and often visited by a few people who love her, sent on a space mission which will last thousands of years but will only seem like a year or two to her due to time dilation and/or suspended animation, returning to an Earth where nobody hates her anymore, or on the run with Suzaku, being the most wanted fugitive in the world, etc. etc. All with her being loved or hated in different degrees by the people around her.




Oh, I see....
I have mistaken you....
sorry....

But if that would be the situation....
I see code geass as more on science....
the mystery and fantasy brought by the idea of geass will be vague....

Why not make Euphie the same as C.C and V.V?
I think that would be better....

Just suggesting....

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