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Who was smarter? Homo Sapiens or Neanderthals?
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Posted 2/16/09 , edited 2/16/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


vinsane01 wrote:


leviathan343 wrote:

MAN U CRAZY WE NOT FROM APES WE WAS MADE FROM DIRT




Do people really believe that crap???


yeah they do, christians do. Its in genesis. And from what ive heard, im not really sure, muslims also believe in the old testament. So muslim too.
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Posted 2/16/09
If you are talking about evolution theory, obviously, it is adaptation.
Neanderthals died out along with Homo Sapiens so they pretty much are both not good at adapting. Though, findings lead towards the evolution of both to Homo Sapien Sapiens.
To make things clearer, they both died so they are both not very flexible to their environment. Now they are as good as dead and both Cro'magnon and Neanderthals have genome similarities to modern humans. There are also theories that asserts Neanderthals and Cro'magnon bred with each other. But that is just a theory.
Anyways, Neanderthals and Cro'Magnons are both Homo Sapiens so I do not really know what you are trying to ask.
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Posted 2/16/09 , edited 2/16/09


For reasons I can't comprehend, this picture reminds me of Chad Kroger of Nickleback......

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Posted 2/17/09

jewishplayer wrote:

If you are talking about evolution theory, obviously, it is adaptation.
Neanderthals died out along with Homo Sapiens so they pretty much are both not good at adapting. Though, findings lead towards the evolution of both to Homo Sapien Sapiens.
To make things clearer, they both died so they are both not very flexible to their environment. Now they are as good as dead and both Cro'magnon and Neanderthals have genome similarities to modern humans. There are also theories that asserts Neanderthals and Cro'magnon bred with each other. But that is just a theory.
Anyways, Neanderthals and Cro'Magnons are both Homo Sapiens so I do not really know what you are trying to ask.


Homo Sapiens did not die out, at that your a Homo Sapien.
Cro'magnon and Neanderthals can not of bred with each other, there not similar enough DNA wise.
Neanderthals have been around long before Homo Sapiens, if they are related at all, its do to a spieces of man Apes like Tom or Betty just a few of the braches that came of those two man like apes, after that there has been other changes before you got the Neanderthals and the Homo-Sapiens. Homo-sapiens and Cro'Magonon man are from the same spieces. Cro'magonom is the name of a Homo-Sapeins found around Europe.
Just like how Neanderthals found around Germany are known as Neandertals.
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Posted 2/17/09

About the Homo Sapien not dying out, I guess I will have to agree as Homo Sapien Sapiens are technically Homo Sapiens.
And the theory about the neanderthals breeding with each other/ having traces of DNA today, I will try to find the article for you. Though, it might actually be a documentary instead of an article. Note that it is a theory though. Theory.

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Posted 2/17/09

jewishplayer wrote:


About the Homo Sapien not dying out, I guess I will have to agree as Homo Sapien Sapiens are technically Homo Sapiens.
And the theory about the neanderthals breeding with each other/ having traces of DNA today, I will try to find the article for you. Though, it might actually be a documentary instead of an article. Note that it is a theory though. Theory.



http://www.ecotao.com/holism/hu_neand.htm

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Posted 2/17/09
Analysis of 11 different human gene trees suggests that our species arose in Africa, and that there were at least two major population expansions out of Africa; one over 600,000 and another 95,000 years ago (Cann, 2002). Recent fossil finds in norther Spain extend this earliest migration to 1.2 million years ago. An earlier expansion of Homo erectus from Africa occurred 1.7 million years ago (Templeton, 2002). The first corresponds with the movement of Homo neanderthalensis out of Africa and an increase in hominid fossil cranial capacity. Archaeologists have found much physical evidence to confirm this date, such as the 0.73 Mya old fossils with stone tools and bison and other animal bones of a generalised Homo species from Isernia in west central Italy. The other date matches the movement of modern humans, Homo sapiens sapiens out of Africa and the appearance of modern traits in fossil skulls. Fossil skull traits such as high, rounded skulls, small brow ridges, a vertical forehead and a pronounced chin first appear in Africa about 130,000 years ago. They then appear outside of Africa over 90,000 years ago (Templeton, 2002). Phylogenetic analysis of Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA leads to a date for the common ancestor of the neanderthal and modern humans at around 465,000 to 600,000 years ago (four times the estimate for the common ancestor of all modern humans) (Disotell, 1999). The common ancestor of the mtDNAs of all living humans lived about 170,000 years ago (Hofreiter et al, 2001). All hominid remains of the last 100,000 years belong to one of these two species (Roe in Waechter, 1990). Ancient remains from a Spanish cave site (La Sima de los Huesos), are a transitional form between Homo erectus and Neanderthals.

The first Neanderthal remains, discovered in Germany in 1856, were presented to the world of science at a meeting of the Lower Rhine Medical and Natural History Society held in Bonn in February 1857 (Reader, 1988) and named a species, Homo neanderthalensis, by William King in 1864. Some Neanderthal fossils and other remains are in excellent condition, giving a good idea of Neanderthal culture. In 1887, two complete skeletons were found in a cave near Spy in Belgium, and more from sites in France in 1887, 1908 and 1911. These and other finds showed that the Neanderthals had populated Europe widely from about 130,000 to 28,000 years ago after which they became extinct. Most of these fossils were found in caves. Usually they are associated with cold adapted species such as reindeer, arctic fox, lemming and mammoth. The current conclusion drawn from fossil evidence is that Neanderthals emerged at least 230,000 to 300,000 years ago (Andrews & Stringer, 1993), (Gore et al, 1996) years and maybe even 350,000 years ago (Bischoff et al, 2003). In the Far East, we first find H. erectus , then a generalised H. sapiens and later H. sapiens sapiens with Mongoloid features, but no Neanderthal presence (Roe in Waechter, 1990). 800,000 year old fossils from northern Spain, has been proposed as the common ancestor to humans and Neanderthals and named Homo antecessor (Lemonick & Dorfman, 1999). ( H. antecessor may in fact be a variant of H. heidelbergensis ). Others say that Homo heidelbergensis is the more likely common ancestor between humans and Neanderthals, The discovery of such ancient fossils with a mix of modern (tooth development, projecting face, sunken cheekbones) and primitive features (jaw and brow ridges) hints at some surprises as more fossils from this period are unearthed. One line of thought places Homo ergaster as ancestral to Homo antecessor in Africa. A population of Homo antecessor migrated ( see map of migration from migration article ) via the Middle East to Europe about one million years ago and evolved into Homo heidelbergensis and then into Neanderthals.
This idea is strengthened by the find of a fossilised H. antecessor jaw bone and teeth found in a cave in northern Spain and dated at between between 1.1 million and 1.2 million years old. Along with the hominin remains were 32 rock fragments of stone tools or flakes produced by making the tools, and numerous animal bones from a variety of species including rats, ferrets, bison, foxes, bears and big cats.


The population of Homo antecessor that remained in Africa likely evolved into Homo sapiens . In this scheme, H. antecessor is ancestral to both H. sapiens and H. neanderthalensis (via H. heidelbergensis ).

Remains of Neanderthals found associated with tools in France and dated at between 31,000 and 34,000 years old, overlap with the earliest remains of modern humans from the same area! The fact that we are the only extant species of our genus has contributed to our distorted opinion of superiority, yet the fossil skeletons of modern man and Neanderthals found in the same vicinity and time at Saint Cezaire suggest a period when two intelligent beings coexisted (Parker, 1992)! Further, primitive, but modern human fossils found at Jebel Qafzeh, near Nazareth, Israel, are 100,000 years old, while Neanderthal remains from the Kebara cave, on Mount Carmel, are 60,000 years old (Parker, 1992), giving the impression of these two creatures living side by side for 40,000 years with no apparent interbreeding (Wilson & Cann, 1992). Another implication derived from this finding is that modern humans did not evolve from Neanderthals (Reader, 1988). Other fossil finds of Neanderthals and modern humans found on Mount Carmel are 120,000 and 100,000 years old respectively. These early humans thus lived in the same area as Neanderthals during the same time. From this perspective, humans are NOT the only species that have developed culture, intelligence, language and self-awareness. Neanderthals were skilled
hunters and craftsmen who made tools, used fire, cared for their sick and injured and even had a few symbolic notions, probably with some facility for language.


Genetics, DNA

The Neanderthal was probably not human ( Krings , 1999). The genome of Neanderthals is expected to differ significantly from the genome of anatomically modern man (Scholz et al, 2000). (Further genetic discoveries my prove otherwise: the absence of Neanderthal mtDNA in living humans does not eliminate the possibility of some genetic continuity with modern humans (Relethford, 2001), (Hoss, 2000), (Stringer, 1999)). "A certain degree of prudence is necessary before drawing any conclusions" (Caramelli et al, 2003). Caramelli et al,( 2003) found that the mtDNAs of early anatomically modern humans and of chronologically close Neandertals were very different. They studied two human fossils dated at between 23,000 and 25,000 years old and found that they appear to have genetic "sequences fully compatible with the variation observed both in contemporary and in ancient samples of anatomically modern humans, and certainly they do not show any special relationships with the almost contemporary Neandertals". These results contradict the one view that Neanderthals are genetically related with the anatomically modern ancestors of current Europeans or that they contributed to the present day human gene pool.

Genetic evidence from a comparison of human and Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) shows that while chimpanzee and human lineages diverged over five million years ago, the Neanderthals diverged over 550,000 to 690,000 years ago. Other data places this estimate at between 365,000 and 853,000 years ago (Ovchinnikov, et al, 2000) and 465,000 before present with confidence limits of 317,000 and 741,000 (Krings, 1999) . Human trunk and limb bones of Homo antecessor , recovered from the Gran Dolina site, in the Sierra de Atapuerca (Burgos, Spain) have been dated at about 780,000 old and are said to represent the last common ancestor for H. sapiens (modern humans) and H. neanderthalensis (Neanderthals) (Carretero et al , 1999). Living humans have on average eight differences in the 378-unit DNA strand investigated, while the Neanderthal differed in 27 places and the chimpanzees differ in 55 places. Further, the mtDNA sequence of Neanderthals was equally distant from all modern groups of humans. Two other studies gave similar differences between humans, neanderthals and chimpanzees, putting the Neanderthals outside the range of modern human mtDNA and therefore a different species. The two Neanderthal individuals studied differed from each other in 12 base pairs. By comparison, 37% of modern Africans differ by 12 or more base pairs, while for Europeans and Asians, the diversity is much less (<1%). Research by Knight (2003) strongly confirmed the deeply divergent histories for modern human mtDNA lineages and the known Neanderthal mtDNA.

Serre et al (2004) reinvestigated the "evidence of Neandertal mtDNA contribution to early modern humans" and concluded that:

"mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences from four Neandertal fossils from Germany, Russia, and Croatia has demonstrated that these individuals carried closely related mtDNAs that are not found among current humans. However, these results do not definitively resolve the question of a possible Neandertal contribution to the gene pool of modern humans since such a contribution might have been erased by genetic drift or by the continuous influx of modern human DNA into the Neandertal gene pool". Additionally, "all Neandertal remains analyzed yielded mtDNA sequences that are not found in the human mtDNA gene pool today but are similar to those found in four previously published Neandertals (Krings et al. 1997, Krings et al. 2000; Ovchinnikov et al. 2000; Schmitz et al. 2002)".

Perhaps, where they coexisted, some difference prevented interbreeding or the production of (fertile) hybrids between these neanderthal populations and early human ancestors. Usually such differences between related species originate as adaptations to the environment, not as devices for reproductive isolation (Wilson, 1992). Studies of chromosome 1 and 22 sequences indicates that non-Africans humans shared a common ancestor long before modern humans appeared. Chromosome 22 research suggests a date of 634,000 years ago (Zhao, et al, 2000), while chromosome 1 results show an ancestral link at 757,000 to 805,000 years ago (Yu, et al, 2001). These very ancient dates for non-African DNA sequences oppose the idea that a single African population of modern humans exited Africa about 100,000 years ago, totally replacing all the archaic humans of Eurasia. Could this be an echo of Neanderthal genes in the European genome? A study of Australian mtDNA from 40-45,000 years ago has shown that Neanderthals were more genetically divergent from us than were these older Australians. This indicates that Neanderthals and early modern humans followed separate evolutionary paths (Brown, 2001). There was little genetic diversity among Neanderthals, so DNA studies show their fossils to be closely related, but not related to modern humans.

Extinction:

With the arrival in Europe of modern humans, with an advanced and sophisticated technology 40,000 years ago, Neanderthals started to vanish. Around 35,000 years ago temperatures started to decline and the most recent Neanderthal remains are found south in isolated seaside caves in Spain. Some tools are 29,000 years old. Neanderthals were still living in Croatia as recently as 28,000 years ago and in southern Spain only 30,000 years ago (Hall, 1999). The Croatian population had some modern human anatomical characteristics. Neanderthals from France, Spain (Zafarraya), and possibly Italy (Cavallo), fall within the period 32-36,000 B.P. There was not enough time for these late Neanderthals to have evolved into the 31,000-year-old modern humans from England and Germany (Brown, 2001). A fossil of a 24,500-year-old early modern human child unearthed in Portugal shows distinctive Neanderthal characteristics, possibly the result of interbreeding. After that, all record vanish.

Although DNA tests show that modern humans and neanderthals diverged from a common ancestor more than 500,000 years ago and that modern humans do not carry neanderthal genes and so did not interbreed when they encountered each other 50,000 years ago.

That ends todays Class. Tomarrow I teach you more about DNA and how its allow us to know what the eyes and hair color of Neanderthals happen to be. (EYES: GREEN.. HAIR IN SOME CASES: RED!)



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Posted 2/17/09

And here i was hoping I emphasized "theory."
But yeah, considering how that theory is just like the Creation Theory, they are both in a slippery slope.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/07/17/more-evidence-that-our-cro-magnon-ancestors-shunned-neanderthals/
There is a link there ( can be seen through subscription) that shows the theory I was mentioning. Again, theory.
But as usual, theories are based on variables that seemed to match but are not really proven; so as you have pointed out, there is a good chance it is wrong.
As I had mentioned earlier, it is just one of the theories, not all, but one; a mere possibility.

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Posted 3/7/09

jewishplayer wrote:


And here i was hoping I emphasized "theory."
But yeah, considering how that theory is just like the Creation Theory, they are both in a slippery slope.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/07/17/more-evidence-that-our-cro-magnon-ancestors-shunned-neanderthals/
There is a link there ( can be seen through subscription) that shows the theory I was mentioning. Again, theory.
But as usual, theories are based on variables that seemed to match but are not really proven; so as you have pointed out, there is a good chance it is wrong.
As I had mentioned earlier, it is just one of the theories, not all, but one; a mere possibility.




At least you have the mind to seek out the truth. (I like that about you!)
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Posted 6/27/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

Who was smarter? Homo Sapiens or Neanderthals?

From my research I found Neanderthals to have around the same level of smarts as the Sapiens, at some times I found that Neanderthals may have been a little bit smarter than the Homo Sapiens.

Science has shown the ability to give birth at a more rapid rate, and the ability to run faster than the Nenderthal may have been why Homo Sapiens in the end survived wile there friendly, maby smarter, stronger homoniod brothers failed in the end.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKs1Q7f1Uzg&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=39B8670A9074CF60&index=3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7YT2HxWPVU




Good looking fellow is he not.
Yei
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Posted 6/27/09
Darkphoenix, I'm starting to get the idea that you accept evolution.
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Posted 6/27/09 , edited 6/27/09

Yei wrote:

Darkphoenix, I'm starting to get the idea that you accept evolution.


You don't?
You do know Evolution it self is a proven fact right?
The theory of evolution is just the explanation of that fact.

The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is our best explanation for the fact of evolution. It has been tested and scrutinised for over 150 years.

http://notjustatheory.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
http://www.ebonmusings.org/evolution/evotheory.html
http://www.forumpakistan.com/what-is-meant-by-theory-of-evolution-t18053.html



I even use a religous site...
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_stat.htm

Ps.. I am a 598,000 year old Neanderthal so you can trust me.. (winks)
Yei
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Posted 6/27/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Yei wrote:

Darkphoenix, I'm starting to get the idea that you accept evolution.


You don't?
You do know Evolution it self is a proven fact right?
The theory of evolution is just the explanation of that fact.

The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is our best explanation for the fact of evolution. It has been tested and scrutinised for over 150 years.

http://notjustatheory.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
http://www.ebonmusings.org/evolution/evotheory.html
http://www.forumpakistan.com/what-is-meant-by-theory-of-evolution-t18053.html



I even use a religous site...
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_stat.htm

Ps.. I am a 598,000 year old Neanderthal so you can trust me.. (winks)


xD lol don't worry I already accept it.

I just love how you're always ready to start preaching about evolution
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Posted 6/27/09

Yei wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Yei wrote:

Darkphoenix, I'm starting to get the idea that you accept evolution.


You don't?
You do know Evolution it self is a proven fact right?
The theory of evolution is just the explanation of that fact.

The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is our best explanation for the fact of evolution. It has been tested and scrutinised for over 150 years.

http://notjustatheory.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
http://www.ebonmusings.org/evolution/evotheory.html
http://www.forumpakistan.com/what-is-meant-by-theory-of-evolution-t18053.html



I even use a religous site...
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_stat.htm

Ps.. I am a 598,000 year old Neanderthal so you can trust me.. (winks)


xD lol don't worry I already accept it.

I just love how you're always ready to start preaching about evolution


Not preaching it just pointing out a fact. SOmething people should know after they get past 4th or 5th grade.

In the end this thread was not really about evolution but a challenge to find out who smarter the Neanderthal or the Homo S. My evidence is pointing to Neanderthals at this time.
Yei
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Posted 6/27/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

Not preaching it just pointing out a fact. SOmething people should know after they get past 4th or 5th grade.

In the end this thread was not really about evolution but a challenge to find out who smarter the Neanderthal or the Homo S. My evidence is pointing to Neanderthals at this time.


Well that's very, very interesting....
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