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The Incentive of Fansub Community's Collective Mentality
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Posted 3/7/09

DomFortress wrote:

Through the system of inductive logic(http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-inductive/), I propose that the collective mentality of the fansub community is incited by misplaced fear(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fear%5B2%5D). And it is with that perverse incentive(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive#References) that propels them to this mentality:
They're afraid of unpleasant situations. They're afraid of commitments. They're afraid of progresses. And they're afraid of truth.

However, their misplaced fear is what's negatively keeping them from happiness. And happiness is a positive incentive(http://ezinearticles.com/?Why-and-How-to-Be-Happy-Now---Happiness-Incentives-and-5-Tips-For-Being-Happy&id=1687231) that will instate tolerance during unpleasant situations, loyalty during commitments, optimism during times of change, and courage during moments of truth.

This is completely different than the informative, but long and boring lecture on economic(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Huz4pw7_8H8&feature=related) that voice actor Greg Ayres had been hosting for several years regarding fansubs. And since the fansub community is by nature, a collective of amateur hobbyists, they cannot understand the deductive logic(http://www.philosophyclass.com/logic.htm) of professional business. This is because their perverse incentive fear of truth is preventing them from having the courage to face the facts of reality. Furthermore, the economic angle only allows the fansub community to use economic recession as an excuse for their behaviors. But the fact is they're only reacting with yet another misplaced fear of recession due to mass medias(http://economics.about.com/cs/businesscycles/a/depressions.htm).

So unless they're ready to conquer their misplaced fears(http://zenhabits.net/2008/11/five-helpful-attitudes-for-dealing-with-your-fears/), the fansub community will not change. And everything that Greg Ayres had said during his panels will remain a real possibility, if not the reality(http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20090304f1.html).


A bundle of links and the likes...

Hello Dom! I temporarily returned here from CR to fix some things... Practically not important. But... Here I go.

The very usage of 'fear' in your context seems very insipid to be honest. I believe paranoia or anything like that may affect to that mentality and the likes. It is, I believe, the environment that keeps the people from having such mentality. I don't have any bad recognition of that mentality even if it does harm the industry. It is, for the reason, that everything is affected by the 'circumstances' (see St. Thomas Aquinas). Another reason is that they never had any motive of paying money. Then again, I believe it is not fear.

It was never fear of unpleasant situations because practically everyone with an ounce of intellect would know that they are not in a pleasant situation to pay money. It was never also fear of commitments. Since people with that mentality never viewed anime as a collectible. I never think that it was fear of the truth. The reason that, it is wholly shallow. Knowing the truth will never change anything... Well, probably insipid sympathizers will. However, it is more deductively strong if you will look at the 'circumstances' of a person.

I never think that you should use the term fear as a tool to keep away from happiness. For the reason that there are tons of views of happiness. I can list some.

Socrates and Plato - Know the good and do the good.
Aristotle - Know the good, do the good, and make it a habit (see Aristotle's Table of Virtue / Just middle)
St. Augustine - Imitation of God
St. Thomas - Live your life bounded by the moral principles. (Too many to list)
John Locke - Follow the law
Immanuel Kant - Obligation.
Utilitarian - Be a tool in giving happiness to others.
Nietzche - Master Morality and the death of god

I also disagree at the far that removing the mentality will give tolerance during unpleasant situations, loyalty during commitments, optimism during times of change, and courage during moment of truth. It is for the reason that your reasoning seems to far-fetched or slippery slope (fallacy)

Another thing I disagree is the fact that you said that fansub community can not understand the logic of business. That is not necessarily true. I believe that it is just overacting because everyone, who does his homework, would know that anime industry is in jeopardy. So why is it still continuing? See the 'circumstances'. Do you know the reason why there are prostitutes in the streets even though it is unhealthy and illegal? See the 'circumstances'. Else, it may be a mistake due to the lack of view point. Second, it may be because they are not given the data to deduce the business of the professionals that they can not understand the business of the professionals. According to John Locke, the mind is like a tabula rasa (empty sheet) wherein you will never know anything without actually experiencing that thing. How can they understand professional business without having knowledge to it?

Deduction is quite poor indeed.

Thanks for the time. Got to go.

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Posted 3/7/09
Ugh... fan subbing is not a business right? Its a hobby. Why are you guys so serious about it?
Posted 3/7/09 , edited 3/7/09

BrylleNoGotoku wrote:


A bundle of links and the likes...

Hello Dom! I temporarily returned here from CR to fix some things... Practically not important. But... Here I go.

The very usage of 'fear' in your context seems very insipid to be honest. I believe paranoia or anything like that may affect to that mentality and the likes. It is, I believe, the environment that keeps the people from having such mentality. I don't have any bad recognition of that mentality even if it does harm the industry. It is, for the reason, that everything is affected by the 'circumstances' (see St. Thomas Aquinas). Another reason is that they never had any motive of paying money. Then again, I believe it is not fear.

It was never fear of unpleasant situations because practically everyone with an ounce of intellect would know that they are not in a pleasant situation to pay money. It was never also fear of commitments. Since people with that mentality never viewed anime as a collectible. I never think that it was fear of the truth. The reason that, it is wholly shallow. Knowing the truth will never change anything... Well, probably insipid sympathizers will. However, it is more deductively strong if you will look at the 'circumstances' of a person.

I never think that you should use the term fear as a tool to keep away from happiness. For the reason that there are tons of views of happiness. I can list some.

Socrates and Plato - Know the good and do the good.
Aristotle - Know the good, do the good, and make it a habit (see Aristotle's Table of Virtue / Just middle)
St. Augustine - Imitation of God
St. Thomas - Live your life bounded by the moral principles. (Too many to list)
John Locke - Follow the law
Immanuel Kant - Obligation.
Utilitarian - Be a tool in giving happiness to others.
Nietzche - Master Morality and the death of god

I also disagree at the far that removing the mentality will give tolerance during unpleasant situations, loyalty during commitments, optimism during times of change, and courage during moment of truth. It is for the reason that your reasoning seems to far-fetched or slippery slope (fallacy)

Another thing I disagree is the fact that you said that fansub community can not understand the logic of business. That is not necessarily true. I believe that it is just overacting because everyone, who does his homework, would know that anime industry is in jeopardy. So why is it still continuing? See the 'circumstances'. Do you know the reason why there are prostitutes in the streets even though it is unhealthy and illegal? See the 'circumstances'. Else, it may be a mistake due to the lack of view point. Second, it may be because they are not given the data to deduce the business of the professionals that they can not understand the business of the professionals. According to John Locke, the mind is like a tabula rasa (empty sheet) wherein you will never know anything without actually experiencing that thing. How can they understand professional business without having knowledge to it?

Deduction is quite poor indeed.

Thanks for the time. Got to go.

Since you mentioned it, what is the circumstances of the Japanese society, thus effecting the anime industry as a whole?
Ancient philosophies are fun and all, but you're out of touch if you don't know the reality of current situation, just like the collective mentality of the fansub community. You don't even know about just what's going on in present time, when all you kept referring to were ancient philosophies and none-related topics. Why are you so afraid of the truth, is it because the truth is unpleasant to you? Is that why you don't want to commit yourself to change, and only pretending like some internet guru but in reality, that's not even who you are? You're only acting intelligent on the internet because you're only discussing with me on a virtual construct, but when you lack the courage to face truth based on facts of reality, you won't have the guts to talk to me in real life. And you can't deny any of that, as long as you're only voicing your opinions on the internet.

And finally, don't even bother trying to quote those ancient philosophers. As much as they all sound rather interesting and all, they're not social scientists, economists, nor psychologists. And the worst part is, they're all dead.

Kill099 wrote:

Ugh... fan subbing is not a business right? Its a hobby. Why are you guys so serious about it?
That's right, as long as the fansub community don't take themselves serious, I can seriously make fun of them on the CR forum. I don't like any of the new anime series made by the anime industry anyway, so it's not my problem when the anime industry and the rest of the anime community just rollover and die.
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Posted 3/8/09


DomFortress wrote:
as long as the fansub community don't take themselves serious, I can seriously make fun of them on the CR forum. I don't like any of the new anime series made by the anime industry anyway, so it's not my problem when the anime industry and the rest of the anime community just rollover and die.


Mr. Fortress, I have been following your posts for some time now, and I thought it was now that I should finally confront you with a very simple question:

What's the big deal with being SERIOUS about fansubbing?

I still cannot bring myself to understand this. Almost every post you make seems to claim that fansubbers aren't SERIOUS enough. Well then, what constitutes a level of adequate SERIOUSNESS about adding English text to cartoons that will satisfy you? Should they sit in cubicles, wear office attire and offer a health plan? Why is it that the fansubbers you badmouth are able to give higher quality subtitles than even the American licensing companies? I find it incredibly ironic that people who fansub in their spare time are able to produce accurate, stylized and typeset subtitles that aren't available on DVD releases, and especially not even Crunchyroll which is supposed to be the embodiment of all the new technologies available?

I look forward to your reply which will no doubt be filled with arbitrary facts and links to sites that have nothing to do with anything.
Posted 3/8/09

SuprSrsBiz wrote:
Mr. Fortress, I have been following your posts for some time now, and I thought it was now that I should finally confront you with a very simple question:

What's the big deal with being SERIOUS about fansubbing?

I still cannot bring myself to understand this. Almost every post you make seems to claim that fansubbers aren't SERIOUS enough. Well then, what constitutes a level of adequate SERIOUSNESS about adding English text to cartoons that will satisfy you? Should they sit in cubicles, wear office attire and offer a health plan? Why is it that the fansubbers you badmouth are able to give higher quality subtitles than even the American licensing companies? I find it incredibly ironic that people who fansub in their spare time are able to produce accurate, stylized and typeset subtitles that aren't available on DVD releases, and especially not even Crunchyroll which is supposed to be the embodiment of all the new technologies available?

I look forward to your reply which will no doubt be filled with arbitrary facts and links to sites that have nothing to do with anything.
Simple. Can the fansub community manage to do all those attention-grabbing distractions called fansubs, without them resorting from stealing intellectual properties, aka the products of anime industry known as anime? No. Because they are a bunch of amateur hobbyists, who aren't professional businessmen and can't even make their own anime. And surprise surprise, not a single arbitrary opinions and links to sites, yet I'm still telling the truth based on facts. Because there's no such thing as "arbitrary fact", for the two words are in contradiction with each other.
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Posted 3/8/09

DomFortress wrote:


SuprSrsBiz wrote:
Mr. Fortress, I have been following your posts for some time now, and I thought it was now that I should finally confront you with a very simple question:

What's the big deal with being SERIOUS about fansubbing?

I still cannot bring myself to understand this. Almost every post you make seems to claim that fansubbers aren't SERIOUS enough. Well then, what constitutes a level of adequate SERIOUSNESS about adding English text to cartoons that will satisfy you? Should they sit in cubicles, wear office attire and offer a health plan? Why is it that the fansubbers you badmouth are able to give higher quality subtitles than even the American licensing companies? I find it incredibly ironic that people who fansub in their spare time are able to produce accurate, stylized and typeset subtitles that aren't available on DVD releases, and especially not even Crunchyroll which is supposed to be the embodiment of all the new technologies available?

I look forward to your reply which will no doubt be filled with arbitrary facts and links to sites that have nothing to do with anything.
Simple. Can the fansub community manage to do all those attention-grabbing distractions called fansubs, without them resorting from stealing intellectual properties, aka the products of anime industry known as anime? No. Because they are a bunch of amateur hobbyists, who aren't professional businessmen and can't even make their own anime. And surprise surprise, not a single arbitrary opinions and links to sites, yet I'm still telling the truth based on facts. Because there's no such thing as "arbitrary fact", for the two words are in contradiction with each other.


I do not see it as being an amateur hobbyist or not being able to produce their own anime. The fact that they are fan subbers is because they are trying to appease to the whole fan based community. Also the only way to grab the public's attention is from the way they sub a raw produced anime, you can pretty well see the difference in fan subbing and company subbing on an anime. Any one would have to choose a colorful subtitle to that of a plain one. It's not so much as stealing but rather spreading a product IN their on way.
Argue about it as much as you want, you can never change the way they do things that grabs the public's attention.
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Posted 3/8/09

DomFortress wrote:

Simple. Can the fansub community manage to do all those attention-grabbing distractions called fansubs, without them resorting from stealing intellectual properties, aka the products of anime industry known as anime? No. Because they are a bunch of amateur hobbyists, who aren't professional businessmen and can't even make their own anime. And surprise surprise, not a single arbitrary opinions and links to sites, yet I'm still telling the truth based on facts. Because there's no such thing as "arbitrary fact", for the two words are in contradiction with each other.




While you claim not not have a single "arbitrary opinion", the whole first part of your post is one. You cast fansubbers out as theives. Yet, they are able to bring people a high quality product, unmatched by the "industry". Maybe the "professional businessmen" should take a lesson on how to do things. Also, while you claim they are unable to "make their own anime", neither do the American licensing companies, Their part is simple, low quality dub and sub to be able to dish it out to the masses.

In other words, your argument is, since the American companies pay a licensing fee to the Japanese company, they can release a low quality product and still stand as the embodiment of how things should be done by everyone. In fact, I think it is you who is unable to see the truth Mr. Fortress. The truth that the American anime industry is sacrificing quality for quantity, unlike the fansubbers you detest.
Posted 3/8/09 , edited 3/8/09

shiranui980 wrote:
I do not see it as being an amateur hobbyist or not being able to produce their own anime. The fact that they are fan subbers is because they are trying to appease to the whole fan based community. Also the only way to grab the public's attention is from the way they sub a raw produced anime, you can pretty well see the difference in fan subbing and company subbing on an anime. Any one would have to choose a colorful subtitle to that of a plain one. It's not so much as stealing but rather spreading a product IN their on way.
Argue about it as much as you want, you can never change the way they do things that grabs the public's attention.
Tell me, am I supposed to be watching anime, or just some attention-grabbing distraction called fansubs, which shouldn't even be there in the first place? A localization process had failed to perform its duty, when it took away the audiences' attention from the actual story.

SuprSrsBiz wrote:
While you claim not not have a single "arbitrary opinion", the whole first part of your post is one. You cast fansubbers out as theives. Yet, they are able to bring people a high quality product, unmatched by the "industry". Maybe the "professional businessmen" should take a lesson on how to do things. Also, while you claim they are unable to "make their own anime", neither do the American licensing companies, Their part is simple, low quality dub and sub to be able to dish it out to the masses.

In other words, your argument is, since the American companies pay a licensing fee to the Japanese company, they can release a low quality product and still stand as the embodiment of how things should be done by everyone. In fact, I think it is you who is unable to see the truth Mr. Fortress. The truth that the American anime industry is sacrificing quality for quantity, unlike the fansubbers you detest.
The fansub community stole the low quality anime made by the anime industry and sponsored by the anime licensing companies, illegally altered the anime with attention-grabbing amateur localizations called fansubs, which distracted the audiences from the actual anime. And you want the anime industry to learn what from it?
Posted 3/8/09
ITT: tl;dr
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Posted 3/8/09 , edited 3/8/09
If you want my personal opinion which you probably do not want, but since I'm here I will anyways.

^_^ People become power hungry and continue to seek more and more power. In other words its a power complex, they gain popularity so they start to demand wants... I want this I want that blah blah blah! Well crunchyroll also has a power complex as well... Crunchyroll did not have to start a money based system they could have simply bent to regions. But I'm not complaining. 90% of everyone has a power complex in some way or form. If you really want to know the mentality of fansubs you need to look at a wide scope and look at the mentality of people using the web to demonstrate or provide their skills, talents, resources or kodak moments. Other great examples are what people do on youtube.
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Posted 3/8/09 , edited 3/8/09

DomFortress wrote:
Tell me, am I supposed to be watching anime, or just some attention-grabbing distraction called fansubs, which shouldn't even be there in the first place? A localization process had failed to perform its duty, when it took away the audiences' attention from the actual story.


In other words, you are saying that subtitles shouldn't exist in the first place. It takes away attention from the story. Well, when poor voice acting on top of edited dialog are spliced into the original show, I find my attention always on what a terrible job is done. Luckily, they provide subtitles so that I can listen to the show how it was intended to be heard, with subtitles. These often inaccurate, terrible looking subtitles let me focus on the show.



Now those subtitles have my undivided attention. Makes things come to mind like, "how can a commercial product come to this?" There is a savior from all this. A group of dedicated people doing what should have been done by these companies in the first place. Accurate subtitles, that are well styled and let me focus on the show without focusing on the poor dub work, or altered original dialog. Styling sucks? No problem, I can make it look like whatever I want and be able to enjoy my show to the fullest.

I just can't but think you are the biggest hypocrite ever.
Posted 3/8/09

SpeedyVT wrote:

If you want my personal opinion which you probably do not want, but since I'm here I will anyways.

^_^ People become power hungry and continue to seek more and more power. In other words its a power complex, they gain popularity so they start to demand wants... I want this I want that blah blah blah! Well crunchyroll also has a power complex as well... Crunchyroll did not have to start a money based system they could have simply bent to regions. But I'm not complaining. 90% of everyone has a power complex in some way or form. If you really want to know the mentality of fansubs you need to look at a wide scope and look at the mentality of people using the web to demonstrate their skills, talents, and kodak moments. Other great examples are what people do on youtube.
In another word, power struggle in the form of attention-grabbing. Because entertainment industry is about grabbing people's attentions. And the will to power is not the same as empowerment. For the former is about one's personal conquests over others, while the latter involves surpassing one's self.

An industry establishment gathers and exports raw materials and/or services, to trade for other life supporting products that it's not meant to produce on its own from other establishments. That's the basic inductive logic of economy; a medium that allows the trafficking of life supporting products between establishment. So what CR is doing is a will to power based on conquests, by grabbing the attention of their audiences with legally gathered raw materials called anime form the anime industry, then gave back the industry ad revenues and subscription fees so the anime industry can survive while make more anime.
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Posted 3/8/09 , edited 3/8/09

DomFortress wrote:

Tell me, am I supposed to be watching anime, or just some attention-grabbing distraction called fansubs, which shouldn't even be there in the first place? A localization process had failed to perform its duty, when it took away the audiences' attention from the actual story.


If Fansubs wasn't here then the industry probably would only have half, or even less, of the buying customers they have. Fansubs creates Anime fans. Some buy after they have seen it, others don´t. But, if they hadn't seen a Fansub in the first place none of them would have bought.



DomFortress wrote:

The fansub community stole the low quality anime made by the anime industry and sponsored by the anime licensing companies


Don´t remember which thread it was, but someone said "to steal you take something away from a person so he lose it" (something like that at least). But the Anime is still there, the fansubbers haven't taken anything, the right word would probably be copied.


DomFortress wrote:

illegally altered the anime with attention-grabbing amateur localizations called fansubs, which distracted the audiences from the actual anime. And you want the anime industry to learn what from it?


"amateur"?

Most of the fansubs i have seen is way more professional than the DVD version you buy. The fansubbers use the Japanese words when they fit best and gives a explanation on what it means at the same time, the DVD versions usually just translate the word and ruin it.

So yes, i too think that the companies should actually look at the fansubs and learn from them. That would probably even boost their sales too.

Of course, it also help to lower the price. I bet that many people is scared away with the prices on the DVD´s now.....

Oh, and hi Dom
Posted 3/8/09 , edited 3/8/09

SuprSrsBiz wrote:


DomFortress wrote:
Tell me, am I supposed to be watching anime, or just some attention-grabbing distraction called fansubs, which shouldn't even be there in the first place? A localization process had failed to perform its duty, when it took away the audiences' attention from the actual story.


In other words, you are saying that subtitles shouldn't exist in the first place. It takes away attention from the story. Well, when poor voice acting on top of edited dialog are spliced into the original show, I find my attention always on what a terrible job is done. Luckily, they provide subtitles so that I can listen to the show how it was intended to be heard, with subtitles. These often inaccurate, terrible looking subtitles let me focus on the show.



Now those subtitles have my undivided attention. Makes things like "how can a commercial product come to this?" There is a savior from all this. A group of dedicated people doing what should have been done by these companies in the first place. Accurate subtitles, that are well styled and let me focus on the show without focusing on the poor dub work, or altered original dialog. Styling sucks? No problem, I can make it look like whatever I want and be able to enjoy my show to the fullest.

I just can't but think you are the biggest hypocrite ever.
Can you do a better voice dubbing, when you're not even a professional voice actor? If not, then what makes you a good critic on voice dubbing localization process? Do you even know what "localization" means?

Enough with your bias opinions without facts based on reality. Your sense of entitlement incited from elitism has no power over the fact that you are an amateur hobbyist who knows nothing about how the real world works. Just like this diluted individual:
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Posted 3/8/09 , edited 3/8/09

DomFortress wrote:


SuprSrsBiz wrote:


DomFortress wrote:
Tell me, am I supposed to be watching anime, or just some attention-grabbing distraction called fansubs, which shouldn't even be there in the first place? A localization process had failed to perform its duty, when it took away the audiences' attention from the actual story.


In other words, you are saying that subtitles shouldn't exist in the first place. It takes away attention from the story. Well, when poor voice acting on top of edited dialog are spliced into the original show, I find my attention always on what a terrible job is done. Luckily, they provide subtitles so that I can listen to the show how it was intended to be heard, with subtitles. These often inaccurate, terrible looking subtitles let me focus on the show.



Now those subtitles have my undivided attention. Makes things like "how can a commercial product come to this?" There is a savior from all this. A group of dedicated people doing what should have been done by these companies in the first place. Accurate subtitles, that are well styled and let me focus on the show without focusing on the poor dub work, or altered original dialog. Styling sucks? No problem, I can make it look like whatever I want and be able to enjoy my show to the fullest.

I just can't but think you are the biggest hypocrite ever.
Can you do a better voice dubbing, when you're not even a professional voice actor? If not, then what makes you a good critic on voice dubbing localization process? Do you even know what "localization" means? Enough with your bias opinions without facts based on reality. Your sense of entitlement incited from elitism has no power over the fact that you are an amateur hobbyist who knows nothing about how the real world works.


Would you like me to tell you how I am a good dub critic?


...

Are you ready for it?


...


I USE THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE EVERY DAY.

I know when it sounds wrong. I know when someone does a bad job voicing. And I know full well what a localization is. It's when the show is edited to make it more in context with to the region it is localized to. Again, this is completely the opposite of what you said in your other post. I want my subs to be what is said during the show. Not what people not involved with the production of the show decide they should be saying. Again, nothing but your hypocrisy is shown in these posts.

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