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Christianity and the differences within
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Posted 12/19/11

AbyssOfBliss wrote:

Dude who the hell cares about religion? It's just a label, live life and accept what comes after death, doesn't anyone understand this?


Child, your ignorance is showing.

Christianity is a faith not a religion and obviously it is MORE than "just a label" since ones belief shapes and influences their personal and social identity as well as their values, attitudes and consequent behaviour.
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Posted 12/19/11
Believe what you want, i can care less cause when you have faith in something you have no knowledge of... it tends to backfire. I don't want to start a flamewar but you have zero knowledge of what's after death, so why waste time making up or believing in stuff like religion.
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Posted 12/19/11

AbyssOfBliss wrote:

Believe what you want, i can care less cause when you have faith in something you have no knowledge of... it tends to backfire. I don't want to start a flamewar but you have zero knowledge of what's after death, so why waste time making up or believing in stuff like religion.
FEAR of the unknown, or they happen to have been brainwashed into the cult as a kid. Ether way it leads to lack of understanding of the world around them and gult of not ever being good enough that comes with the single god con. But hate self hate is two of the main tactects used in such religions.
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Posted 12/19/11

fallen-angelxoxo wrote:


AbyssOfBliss wrote:

Dude who the hell cares about religion? It's just a label, live life and accept what comes after death, doesn't anyone understand this?


Child, your ignorance is showing.

Christianity is a faith not a religion and obviously it is MORE than "just a label" since ones belief shapes and influences their personal and social identity as well as their values, attitudes and consequent behaviour.


just like any other religion, christianity is no different. All religions are faith based. That is why they fail wen looked at rationally using a court system or scientific peer review system. Because the lack of evidence is so apparent.
Posted 12/19/11
Such a feverish euphoria Christianity creates in its followers. The Kool-Aid must be a very strong concoction.
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Posted 12/22/11
I don't want to get into the hard debate's of what is right or wrong. Jesus ended it all, so once we truly (still working on it) get it, there's literally no more sin. what ppl are living in is an old illusion of what the world was, not the kingdom of heaven that we can live in (literally). Also, there's only one church, everyone together is the body of Christ (Christ is alot bigger than a lil body, think more like cosmic conciousness, i still haven't been able to see the whole breadth of him and I'm pretty big with it)
so the divisions are more like personal preferences I just wish we could work together we all have the same goal, it's really hard to walk when the foot is kicking the hand. It's only people's human understanding that separate it, not God's.
If you truly sit ask God for understanding and wisdom, build a relationship with God; and WAIT for God to show you what is Good and what is real, you won't neeeeed to listen to ppl's limited mindsets about the Lord who is soo big that the human intellect can't even comprehend his breath! I've been working with the sacred flames of The I AM and I still only understand a handful of knowledge from the ocean of intellect.
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Posted 12/22/11
it'll be a good day when everyone realizes that they are a small piece of God, religion is faith based; but what father can teach a child who refuses to acknowledge him I tell you that he looks at everyone like little children; almost all kids go through a rebellious phase, most kids once they grow up a bit come to the conclusion that Dad's pretty smart, we should listen (not always fun but a part of growing up).
You can try to hide behind a "logical science" for a little while, but religion looked at scientifically (w/o the same blinders you say religions use) proves itself true. If you but have the courage to step out into the waters of the unknown. I mean, if you just trust what you can see; join the bandwagon of ppl who said the Wright brothers couldn't fly (obviously ppl who said that had no idea of what physics really is, very much similar to people who say Christianity isn't logical science; they're usually the ones who listen to someone secondhand and 'assume' they know what it is all about. What's scientific about that? (poke poke, in jest; but seriously if you want to use science it's ok, just use it to the fullest extent so that you don't sound ignorant in the process).
and if you end up not wanting to believe, that's ok; just don't destroy another's faith (almost everyone can agree in the Universal Law of Karma, no need to heap it on yourself, ya?) or if you just want to look at it from a maturity perspective, is it a kid mentality that wants to destroy so they can feel smart, or a grown man's?

and lol dues, there's a passage that says to the effect "they're drunk on the Holy Spirit, not on wine"
So a lot of passion does arise from it, just realize that it's such a personal thing that people know the
truth from the level they're at; it doesn't mean that they have the whole answer yet.
Posted 12/22/11

silentavian wrote:

it'll be a good day when everyone realizes that they are a small piece of God, religion is faith based; but what father can teach a child who refuses to acknowledge him I tell you that he looks at everyone like little children; almost all kids go through a rebellious phase, most kids once they grow up a bit come to the conclusion that Dad's pretty smart, we should listen (not always fun but a part of growing up).
You can try to hide behind a "logical science" for a little while, but religion looked at scientifically (w/o the same blinders you say religions use) proves itself true. If you but have the courage to step out into the waters of the unknown. I mean, if you just trust what you can see; join the bandwagon of ppl who said the Wright brothers couldn't fly (obviously ppl who said that had no idea of what physics really is, very much similar to people who say Christianity isn't logical science; they're usually the ones who listen to someone secondhand and 'assume' they know what it is all about. What's scientific about that? (poke poke, in jest; but seriously if you want to use science it's ok, just use it to the fullest extent so that you don't sound ignorant in the process).
and if you end up not wanting to believe, that's ok; just don't destroy another's faith (almost everyone can agree in the Universal Law of Karma, no need to heap it on yourself, ya?) or if you just want to look at it from a maturity perspective, is it a kid mentality that wants to destroy so they can feel smart, or a grown man's?

and lol dues, there's a passage that says to the effect "they're drunk on the Holy Spirit, not on wine"
So a lot of passion does arise from it, just realize that it's such a personal thing that people know the
truth from the level they're at; it doesn't mean that they have the whole answer yet.
Then your Christian God is but a child Himself, when he didn't mature from His own egocentric arrogance. Just look at how you used a biblical reference as an excuse for your own arrogance, it's self-evidence just how immature, arrogant, and unapologetic your belief system is. And that's just an honest observation. Not an attempt at destroying what's not even there. But should you felt for it, then you've got an ego fed by your own superiority/god complex.
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Posted 12/23/11
Thank you for your thoughts, though we must further delve into the reasons why you think it's arrogant and what you think is arrogant. I didn't see anything but name calling in your post. I'm not offended, but why should I be apologetic? What you highlighted first is simply stating the fact that humanity is still in it's infancy, despite your chronological age. The second is a call for self reflection in how you go about challenging; the guy previous stated things like "there's no peer review" which is the furthest from the truth (if you didn't realize i was trying to keep that guy from sounding ignorant, if you're not mature enough to take the lesson and grow w/ it; then you'll probably get mad at that type of thing).

The reference to the "drunk" passage was in response to the quote "that must be some really good Kool-Aid" **it was also a relation to how people will receive a part of the truth, know it's real; but still have a long way to go before they get the whole thing. It was also an explanation on how people get so mad and passionate about the subject. It's kinda like you get a taste of the best pie, but you don't know the ingredients and you still want everyone to know about it. Cause it's a good pie. What you saw as an excuse was really just letting everyone know why people get crazy on God. ---They haven't matured yet. I also wanted people to understand that everything that they may hear from Christians might be like you're in first grade learning math, you can explain 1+1; but can't even fathom what calculus is; it is a sad thing but many people get the wrong idea about the faith due to this fact. I'm trying to understand why you thought this was arrogant and self evident, maybe it was a misunderstanding?

I don't see your logic in that God is but a child, b/c he sees ppl as children. please elaborate.
It's obviously not an honest observation, but one colored by your perceptions, sounds like you have a lot of anger to deal with.
It's kind of arrogant to say somethings not even there. Have you looked?
And yes I have an ego, we all do. Nothing new; the real challenge is what you do with it.

This apologetic thing, what am I supposed to be sorry for? Yes, there are wars in the name of God, yes there is abuse of power; that's man stuff (which if there wasn't God man would find another excuse), has nothing to do with God.

The main premise of the post was that when a man is fully mature and whole; we can discuss things without ridicule (this goes for the Christians who posted too). Because in essence the ridicule comes from the ego so it does nothing to further the conversation, only slows it down (plus how can the ego comprehend God). Which leads to the main question, if you don't like the topic, why are you reading it? Unless you're stuck in cycles of negativity so much that you are attracted to things that make you angry so that you can spout and spread more negativity. If that's not the case, bring solid answers and we'll have a logical debate.
Posted 12/23/11 , edited 12/24/11

silentavian wrote:

Thank you for your thoughts, though we must further delve into the reasons why you think it's arrogant and what you think is arrogant. I didn't see anything but name calling in your post. I'm not offended, but why should I be apologetic? What you highlighted first is simply stating the fact that humanity is still in it's infancy, despite your chronological age. The second is a call for self reflection in how you go about challenging; the guy previous stated things like "there's no peer review" which is the furthest from the truth (if you didn't realize i was trying to keep that guy from sounding ignorant, if you're not mature enough to take the lesson and grow w/ it; then you'll probably get mad at that type of thing).

The reference to the "drunk" passage was in response to the quote "that must be some really good Kool-Aid" **it was also a relation to how people will receive a part of the truth, know it's real; but still have a long way to go before they get the whole thing. It was also an explanation on how people get so mad and passionate about the subject. It's kinda like you get a taste of the best pie, but you don't know the ingredients and you still want everyone to know about it. Cause it's a good pie. What you saw as an excuse was really just letting everyone know why people get crazy on God. ---They haven't matured yet. I also wanted people to understand that everything that they may hear from Christians might be like you're in first grade learning math, you can explain 1+1; but can't even fathom what calculus is; it is a sad thing but many people get the wrong idea about the faith due to this fact. I'm trying to understand why you thought this was arrogant and self evident, maybe it was a misunderstanding?

I don't see your logic in that God is but a child, b/c he sees ppl as children. please elaborate.
It's obviously not an honest observation, but one colored by your perceptions, sounds like you have a lot of anger to deal with.
It's kind of arrogant to say somethings not even there. Have you looked?
And yes I have an ego, we all do. Nothing new; the real challenge is what you do with it.

This apologetic thing, what am I supposed to be sorry for? Yes, there are wars in the name of God, yes there is abuse of power; that's man stuff (which if there wasn't God man would find another excuse), has nothing to do with God.

The main premise of the post was that when a man is fully mature and whole; we can discuss things without ridicule (this goes for the Christians who posted too). Because in essence the ridicule comes from the ego so it does nothing to further the conversation, only slows it down (plus how can the ego comprehend God). Which leads to the main question, if you don't like the topic, why are you reading it? Unless you're stuck in cycles of negativity so much that you are attracted to things that make you angry so that you can spout and spread more negativity. If that's not the case, bring solid answers and we'll have a logical debate.
I'm unimpressed by your assumption about how I was "being negative", along with your manipulation at changing the topic to your assumption about my negativity. When the fact is this thread is about the many denominations with the Christian belief system, and I'm only observing this baseline "infancy" that they all share; their self-righteous and egocentric arrogance, of how they all desire to be the only favorite people of Christ for themselves. You should learn how to use chaos theory at solving complex systems: more correct patterns through emergence, and fewer errors on categorization. But I don't expect how a mere man-made belief system based on faith in an arbitrary deity, can ever come up with such elegant theory on its own, when it relies on easy thus primitive circular reasoning.


And just like that, your arrogance shows itself once again, with your primitive assumption on children. When the fact is children's minds can apply chaos theory almost intuitively through playing.

So one way of thinking about it is that babies and young children are like the research and development division of the human species. So they're the protected blue sky guys who just have to go out and learn and have good ideas, and we're production and marketing. We have to take all those ideas that we learned when we were children and actually put them to use. Another way of thinking about it is instead of thinking of babies and children as being like defective grownups, we should think about them as being a different developmental stage of the same species -- kind of like caterpillars and butterflies -- except that they're actually the brilliant butterflies who are flitting around the garden and exploring, and we're the caterpillars who are inching along our narrow, grownup, adult path.

If this is true, if these babies are designed to learn -- and this evolutionary story would say children are for learning, that's what they're for -- we might expect that they would have really powerful learning mechanisms. And in fact, the baby's brain seems to be the most powerful learning computer on the planet. But real computers are actually getting to be a lot better. And there's been a revolution in our understanding of machine learning recently. And it all depends on the ideas of this guy, the Reverend Thomas Bayes, who was a statistician and mathematician in the 18th century. And essentially what Bayes did was to provide a mathematical way using probability theory to characterize, describe, the way that scientists find out about the world. So what scientists do is they have a hypothesis that they think might be likely to start with. They go out and test it against the evidence. The evidence makes them change that hypothesis. Then they test that new hypothesis and so on and so forth. And what Bayes showed was a mathematical way that you could do that. And that mathematics is at the core of the best machine learning programs that we have now. And some 10 years ago, I suggested that babies might be doing the same thing.

So if you want to know what's going on underneath those beautiful brown eyes, I think it actually looks something like this. This is Reverend Bayes's notebook. So I think those babies are actually making complicated calculations with conditional probabilities that they're revising to figure out how the world works. All right, now that might seem like an even taller order to actually demonstrate. Because after all, if you ask even grownups about statistics, they look extremely stupid. How could it be that children are doing statistics?

So to test this we used a machine that we have called the Blicket Detector. This is a box that lights up and plays music when you put some things on it and not others. And using this very simple machine, my lab and others have done dozens of studies showing just how good babies are at learning about the world. Let me mention just one that we did with Tumar Kushner, my student. If I showed you this detector, you would be likely to think to begin with that the way to make the detector go would be to put a block on top of the detector. But actually, this detector works in a bit of a strange way. Because if you wave a block over the top of the detector, something you wouldn't ever think of to begin with, the detector will actually activate two out of three times. Whereas, if you do the likely thing, put the block on the detector, it will only activate two out of six times. So the unlikely hypothesis actually has stronger evidence. It looks as if the waving is a more effective strategy than the other strategy. So we did just this; we gave four year-olds this pattern of evidence, and we just asked them to make it go. And sure enough, the four year-olds used the evidence to wave the object on top of the detector.

Now there are two things that are really interesting about this. The first one is, again, remember, these are four year-olds. They're just learning how to count. But unconsciously, they're doing these quite complicated calculations that will give them a conditional probability measure. And the other interesting thing is that they're using that evidence to get to an idea, get to a hypothesis about the world, that seems very unlikely to begin with. And in studies we've just been doing in my lab, similar studies, we've show that four year-olds are actually better at finding out an unlikely hypothesis than adults are when we give them exactly the same task. So in these circumstances, the children are using statistics to find out about the world, but after all, scientists also do experiments, and we wanted to see if children are doing experiments. When children do experiments we call it "getting into everything" or else "playing."
---- from "Alison Gopnik: What do babies think?"
Hmm, now that's the reality which runs contradictory to your faith-based old assumption.

There's no "misunderstanding", when the fact is you're just going on a self-deceiving assumption that's actually false-positive, aka a superstition.

We find patterns, we make those connections, whether it's Pavlov's dog here associating the sound of the bell with the food, and then he salivates to the sound of the bell, or whether it's a Skinnerian rat, in which he's having an association between his behavior and a reward for it, and therefore he repeats the behavior. In fact, what Skinner discovered is that, if you put a pigeon in a box like this, and he has to press one of these two keys, and he tries to figure out what the pattern is, and you give him a little reward in the hopper box there -- if you just randomly assign rewards such that there is no pattern, they will figure out any kind of pattern. And whatever they were doing just before they got the reward, they repeat that particular pattern. Sometimes it was even spinning around twice counterclockwise, once clockwise and peck the key twice. And that's called superstition, and that, I'm afraid, we will always have with us.
---- from "Michael Shermer: The pattern behind self-deception"
Isn't it so rewarding to just assume that you're so mature thus superior? Because of how your faith is making you believe that everyone else who's not of the same faith are immature children.

I also find it to be interesting how although you assumed that we all have egos, you said nothing about how you challenge your own ego. Why are you making an exception for your own ego? I've learned how to let go of my own ego, so can you learn how to let go of your own God? Since you claimed that nothing that men do has anything to do with God, then He's simply irrelevant for consideration or observation.

BTW, this description of "what scientists do is they have a hypothesis that they think might be likely to start with. They go out and test it against the evidence. The evidence makes them change that hypothesis. Then they test that new hypothesis and so on and so forth"? That's "scientific peer review", aka scientific rigors, aka trials and errors, aka learning from mistakes, aka self-correcting process, aka celebrating the experiments. It needs free and open-public inquiry regarding the experiments be done in an honest and unbiased manner, while evidences relevant to the experiments must be empirically and universally accessible. But most of all, it has to consider that failure isn't just an option, it's something of a given. Because otherwise we can't learn, and the whole scientific rigors would be compromised. But apparently the Christian God claimed to be perfect in every way imaginable and then some, thus His favorite people can afford to be arrogant much like how Himself could. That's self-righteous egocentric arrogance, not truth. In fact, religious organizations throughout all cultures had been using the concept of spiritual purity as their moral high horse, in order to discourage public inquiry about their rather fallible dogmas, arbitrary inequality, and scaremongering indoctrinations.

“I think purity is a good mask for corruption, perhaps most so because it discourages inquiry.” -Stephen J. Dubner in “Pure Corruption” from Freakonomics: The Movie
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Posted 12/24/11
Now we're getting somewhere. There were some misunderstandings. First, I'm not fully grown and neither is the Church (least of all the church in many ways). There is an apparent perception that all "christians" must be like that. I can understand how you feel when a lot of kids are going "aha, mine is great and that's the trutth" it's easy to let zeal and newborn love grow into arrogance. If you actually read the Bible Jesus never says, "the Bible is the only book of Knowledge" he says "the only way to the Father is through Me" (That's gonna piss the hardliners off, but it is a misteaching in the Church)

"the drunk passage" If you read carefully, I wasn't at all making an excuse. I was actually giving you the perfect rebuttal to people who try to get angry and push their faith on you. (you're being a kid, you're still at the 1+1 stage; because when one begins to mature in faith they don't feel the need to push it on others. Just share and let it go.

Arrogant in the webster's dictionary is:
-showing an offensive attitude of superiority : proceeding from or characterized by arrogance.
-exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner.
Let's get past this thought, have i really been like this with you, just because i called humanity (which i'm a part of) a child? Please pay careful attention to the fact that in the previous post i said humanity, not everyone else that's not christian. Also in the first post I said "everyone" not excluding christians at all. In fact I was referencing christians mainly as children. *thus why i tried to explain why ppl get mad and passionate about faith ****they're not mature**** i don't really know how to be more clear, you seem stuck on the idea that i'm trying to attack everyone that's not a christian; but it's not the case. In reality i'm trying to advance the Christians here. So far in my experience, if you hear truth and recognize it (something stirs inside) then it's cause to continue. If instead you hear truth and deny it then you most likely will continue to. So why should i waste my time trying to "convince" anyone? Instead it's a much better use of my energy to improve the ones that do. (this also goes with why people get so zealous, they're told to build the kingdom of heaven and at the first stages that's all they can do (a more proper way to do it is to give a testimony from your experience and say it's a good thing, and give them something to check it out. All the yelling and pushing nonsense just pushes people away and is socially uncouth) *once again, because they haven't matured in the faith yet*)

That's a funny cartoon, and is accurate for alot of people who stop their study at stage 1. That's really just the first step though, and if you don't keep advancing yourself you do get stuck in that cycle; this isn't a onetime thing and "you got it" it's a progressive growth. You're right, most of the Church is a bunch of squabbling kids. Annoys the hell out of me. But that's not the whole of it. That really only scratches the surface. Just keep in mind Science is still young as well, it's attitudes and thoughts have been changing quite a lot in the past 100 years and I'm sure it'll change again before it's over. I have Faith that God made all this and did it all with science. Lord actually thought up fractal geometry, science then discovered it. The Big Bang is very similar to the beginning in the Jewish tradition: "A spiraling out from the center"

It is condescending to go on and on about the "self evident egocentric blah blah blah" i wasn't trying to impress you with it, trying to evolve the conversation out of base name calling. I guess we have different versions of what negativity is.

As to the last paragraph have you applied an unbiased scientific rule to the Bible (is science only for the explanation of nature?) or are your opinions based on your emotions about how people live? If people use inferred perfection of God as an excuse to be arrogant, they'll be in for a big wake up call. Words fail to describe the perfection of God it really can only be witnessed and even then it depends on the level of your own personal growth. So you're on your own there. Yes, we strive to become perfect (my definition is to overcome my earth lessons and challenges, nuturing and growing the IAM within. Also to note that each of our "perfects" will be different based on who we are and what it means to each of us to achieve perfection. The Christ consciousness realizes that it's all perfection right now. That each stage of growth is perfect for where and what it is. You say a child is being perfect learning to walk and it is. You say a young one is being perfect trying her best on a test and she is. Just like the single cell organism was perfect and kept being perfect until it grew so much that it became a multicell organism and so forth.


There's a saying "A thief in a room of priests only sees purses."




If you haven't passed all your Earth lessons you still have room to grow and don't have the whole picture yet. For that matter I'm still learning it. As to my ego, the best I can do right now is to be aware of it, check it and use it to transform. I do my best not to let it run amuck. In my opinion it is a tool for growth, if used properly. An inescapable trap if not. The Zen monks do well with overcoming the ego through meditation (it's a challenge for me to sit and quiet the mind to see it's true nature). I also have this really cool technique for transforming lower emotions: You remember a time you felt completely loved (a mother's love is very close to Universal love) and bring that feeling up, making it more intense and then hold the lower emotion and the love at the same time. The higher frequency of love transforms the base emotion!

The growth in the Bible is a scientific process. The only difference is they have a Teacher who tells them how it is to start with. So it goes something like this: God said do it like this. People don't and get a result. God said, ok we'll try again do it like this. People did it and get a result. It's really consistent in how it operates. *also have millions and millions of reports verifying the validity of the system* When people used God's principles they grew and prospered. When they didn't they didn't. Ex: the people of Israel. Every time the women fasted the day before battle they won. Whenever they didn't they lost. And these aren't just stories, they match the history of Israel from other historic records as well. Also, the chosen people are the Jews. Not the Gentiles (white people). If you read the Bible for yourself instead of hearing some small minds theories on it, it's very apparent of how it is. *and no i'm not saying you've got to read it; but if you do try to read it without the sneering attitude or you'll get the same reflection back. and that's with anything if I have a bad attitude about philosophy, my perception of it will be colored with my attitudes and beliefs.

For christians reading this, my suggestion is to let go of anything that colors your vision (like denominations) and pray that your heart and mind will be opened to clarity and truth. done sincerely and in a waiting fashion *don't try to force God to show you something* just pray listen and study. There are many levels of understanding to go through; the same passage will yield wisdom in different ways the more developed you are. Also, pray for wisdom constantly. If you are coming to the Lord with a small mind, he can only show a small thing.

For most Christians, they have had some form of direct experience with God. Not one that is able to be broken down by science, but one that is real and tangible. Direct experience is also how acupuncture and the internal energy disciplines (Qi gong, and yes I do study this as well) came about. So even if the newer ones don't have the whole picture, to discount someone's personal experience as superstition is really unscientific. Mainly, because you have no reference to that experience, to be able to call it real or not. You can make your own deductions looking at it from the outside; but that has no meaning without your own direct experience. Most scientists will agree that just because you can't see something, it doesn't mean it's not there. That idea is one of the a main motivators in science. Also, faith might be like Qi gong in it's nature; that the presence of God is a definable practice.
An interesting note, science looked at the meridians of the body as something irrelevant until it was proved through radioactive ink. Why should the irrefutable science pay any attention to it without a machine to tell them it's true? I mean, Chinese masters had only been studying for a couple of thousand years what would they know? That's an achilles' heel of science. If your machine's not good enough then the idea's not real. When in truth the idea could be real, just your machine can't discern it yet. In it's purest form, science is questioning and exploring; when you color it with perceptions and emotions, it becomes haughty and condescending. Also, just had a thought, when you put your faith in something it's kind of like making it your god. If you put so much faith in science, is science your god and susceptible to the same egocentric arrogances of imagined purity?

"""I also find it to be interesting how although you assumed that we all have egos, you said nothing about how you challenge your own ego. Why are you making an exception for your own ego? I've learned how to let go of my own ego, so can you learn how to let go of your own God? Since you claimed that nothing that men do has anything to do with God, then He's simply irrelevant for consideration or observation."""

Try reading what i wrote again, I said the wars in the name of God and such are the affairs of man, not God doing it. In other words, the wars and ego based actions that men do, is not at the call of God, actually God says be peaceful, man just doesn't listen all the time. I didn't say "nothing" i said a lot of things done in the name of God are actually done at the behest of man.
You might want to work with the Zen masters before you claim to have overcome your ego. It's not as easy as all that. One that has overcome the ego doesn't feel the need to put others ideas down, more like acknowledge them as not yours and let it go because it doesn't concern you. The very need "for me to be right and you are wrong' is a form of ego. And no, I am not letting go of God, that's a deceitful attempt to try to get me to let go of what i know is real b/c you have "let go of ego". Really a toxic behavior based in ego. Has nothing to do with a progressive conversation. And if you will, let's keep this out of our speaking.

Can you see the parralels of science and religion? They both try to debase the other and blah blah blah. One truth is that science hasn't developed enough to be able to prove God true or false (the understandings that man have that are not in line w/ the universal mind can and will be proved false) and the Church hasn't developed enough to recognize God's hand in science. More and more, the better science gets the more truth we find in the Bible. Fractal geometry is too perfect and concise to not have a higher mind at work in it. The bible says "as above, so below". Science is recognizing that the smallest patterns that make up an atom are at work in the largest galaxies. Could it be that science and religion are explaining the same thing from different views? Could it be that one's own perception is variable based on beliefs, habits and experiences? Is it possible that when you argue, you are really talking about yourself and your fallacies due to your own perceptions? Science and Faith in their purest forms are contributing and building one another not destroying (if you look at it from another perspective egod people use whatever discipline they're in to destroy anything that doesn't match their view ((this is so the ego can survive)) Looked at like this it doesn't matter whether you're in religion or science, it's just an avenue for the ego to battle and grow. So, if you're in destructive mode no matter what view you take you'll always seek to be destructive If you're in creative mode you will always seek to create regardless of the discipline you're in. To say it plainly; the Christians trying to 'be better' than one another and the scientists trying to 'be smarter' than one another are the same. Also apply that when they try to fight each other.

Posted 12/25/11 , edited 12/25/11

silentavian wrote:

Now we're getting somewhere. There were some misunderstandings. First, I'm not fully grown and neither is the Church (least of all the church in many ways). There is an apparent perception that all "christians" must be like that. I can understand how you feel when a lot of kids are going "aha, mine is great and that's the trutth" it's easy to let zeal and newborn love grow into arrogance. If you actually read the Bible Jesus never says, "the Bible is the only book of Knowledge" he says "the only way to the Father is through Me" (That's gonna piss the hardliners off, but it is a misteaching in the Church)

"the drunk passage" If you read carefully, I wasn't at all making an excuse. I was actually giving you the perfect rebuttal to people who try to get angry and push their faith on you. (you're being a kid, you're still at the 1+1 stage; because when one begins to mature in faith they don't feel the need to push it on others. Just share and let it go.

Arrogant in the webster's dictionary is:
-showing an offensive attitude of superiority : proceeding from or characterized by arrogance.
-exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner.
Let's get past this thought, have i really been like this with you, just because i called humanity (which i'm a part of) a child? Please pay careful attention to the fact that in the previous post i said humanity, not everyone else that's not christian. Also in the first post I said "everyone" not excluding christians at all. In fact I was referencing christians mainly as children. *thus why i tried to explain why ppl get mad and passionate about faith ****they're not mature**** i don't really know how to be more clear, you seem stuck on the idea that i'm trying to attack everyone that's not a christian; but it's not the case. In reality i'm trying to advance the Christians here. So far in my experience, if you hear truth and recognize it (something stirs inside) then it's cause to continue. If instead you hear truth and deny it then you most likely will continue to. So why should i waste my time trying to "convince" anyone? Instead it's a much better use of my energy to improve the ones that do. (this also goes with why people get so zealous, they're told to build the kingdom of heaven and at the first stages that's all they can do (a more proper way to do it is to give a testimony from your experience and say it's a good thing, and give them something to check it out. All the yelling and pushing nonsense just pushes people away and is socially uncouth) *once again, because they haven't matured in the faith yet*)

That's a funny cartoon, and is accurate for alot of people who stop their study at stage 1. That's really just the first step though, and if you don't keep advancing yourself you do get stuck in that cycle; this isn't a onetime thing and "you got it" it's a progressive growth. You're right, most of the Church is a bunch of squabbling kids. Annoys the hell out of me. But that's not the whole of it. That really only scratches the surface. Just keep in mind Science is still young as well, it's attitudes and thoughts have been changing quite a lot in the past 100 years and I'm sure it'll change again before it's over. I have Faith that God made all this and did it all with science. Lord actually thought up fractal geometry, science then discovered it. The Big Bang is very similar to the beginning in the Jewish tradition: "A spiraling out from the center"

It is condescending to go on and on about the "self evident egocentric blah blah blah" i wasn't trying to impress you with it, trying to evolve the conversation out of base name calling. I guess we have different versions of what negativity is.


As to the last paragraph have you applied an unbiased scientific rule to the Bible (is science only for the explanation of nature?) or are your opinions based on your emotions about how people live? If people use inferred perfection of God as an excuse to be arrogant, they'll be in for a big wake up call. Words fail to describe the perfection of God it really can only be witnessed and even then it depends on the level of your own personal growth. So you're on your own there. Yes, we strive to become perfect (my definition is to overcome my earth lessons and challenges, nuturing and growing the IAM within. Also to note that each of our "perfects" will be different based on who we are and what it means to each of us to achieve perfection. The Christ consciousness realizes that it's all perfection right now. That each stage of growth is perfect for where and what it is. You say a child is being perfect learning to walk and it is. You say a young one is being perfect trying her best on a test and she is. Just like the single cell organism was perfect and kept being perfect until it grew so much that it became a multicell organism and so forth.


There's a saying "A thief in a room of priests only sees purses."




If you haven't passed all your Earth lessons you still have room to grow and don't have the whole picture yet. For that matter I'm still learning it. As to my ego, the best I can do right now is to be aware of it, check it and use it to transform. I do my best not to let it run amuck. In my opinion it is a tool for growth, if used properly. An inescapable trap if not. The Zen monks do well with overcoming the ego through meditation (it's a challenge for me to sit and quiet the mind to see it's true nature). I also have this really cool technique for transforming lower emotions: You remember a time you felt completely loved (a mother's love is very close to Universal love) and bring that feeling up, making it more intense and then hold the lower emotion and the love at the same time. The higher frequency of love transforms the base emotion!

The growth in the Bible is a scientific process. The only difference is they have a Teacher who tells them how it is to start with. So it goes something like this: God said do it like this. People don't and get a result. God said, ok we'll try again do it like this. People did it and get a result. It's really consistent in how it operates. *also have millions and millions of reports verifying the validity of the system* When people used God's principles they grew and prospered. When they didn't they didn't. Ex: the people of Israel. Every time the women fasted the day before battle they won. Whenever they didn't they lost. And these aren't just stories, they match the history of Israel from other historic records as well. Also, the chosen people are the Jews. Not the Gentiles (white people). If you read the Bible for yourself instead of hearing some small minds theories on it, it's very apparent of how it is. *and no i'm not saying you've got to read it; but if you do try to read it without the sneering attitude or you'll get the same reflection back. and that's with anything if I have a bad attitude about philosophy, my perception of it will be colored with my attitudes and beliefs.

For christians reading this, my suggestion is to let go of anything that colors your vision (like denominations) and pray that your heart and mind will be opened to clarity and truth. done sincerely and in a waiting fashion *don't try to force God to show you something* just pray listen and study. There are many levels of understanding to go through; the same passage will yield wisdom in different ways the more developed you are. Also, pray for wisdom constantly. If you are coming to the Lord with a small mind, he can only show a small thing.

For most Christians, they have had some form of direct experience with God. Not one that is able to be broken down by science, but one that is real and tangible. Direct experience is also how acupuncture and the internal energy disciplines (Qi gong, and yes I do study this as well) came about. So even if the newer ones don't have the whole picture, to discount someone's personal experience as superstition is really unscientific. Mainly, because you have no reference to that experience, to be able to call it real or not. You can make your own deductions looking at it from the outside; but that has no meaning without your own direct experience. Most scientists will agree that just because you can't see something, it doesn't mean it's not there. That idea is one of the a main motivators in science. Also, faith might be like Qi gong in it's nature; that the presence of God is a definable practice.
An interesting note, science looked at the meridians of the body as something irrelevant until it was proved through radioactive ink. Why should the irrefutable science pay any attention to it without a machine to tell them it's true? I mean, Chinese masters had only been studying for a couple of thousand years what would they know? That's an achilles' heel of science. If your machine's not good enough then the idea's not real. When in truth the idea could be real, just your machine can't discern it yet. In it's purest form, science is questioning and exploring; when you color it with perceptions and emotions, it becomes haughty and condescending. Also, just had a thought, when you put your faith in something it's kind of like making it your god. If you put so much faith in science, is science your god and susceptible to the same egocentric arrogances of imagined purity?

"""I also find it to be interesting how although you assumed that we all have egos, you said nothing about how you challenge your own ego. Why are you making an exception for your own ego? I've learned how to let go of my own ego, so can you learn how to let go of your own God? Since you claimed that nothing that men do has anything to do with God, then He's simply irrelevant for consideration or observation."""

Try reading what i wrote again, I said the wars in the name of God and such are the affairs of man, not God doing it. In other words, the wars and ego based actions that men do, is not at the call of God, actually God says be peaceful, man just doesn't listen all the time. I didn't say "nothing" i said a lot of things done in the name of God are actually done at the behest of man.
You might want to work with the Zen masters before you claim to have overcome your ego. It's not as easy as all that. One that has overcome the ego doesn't feel the need to put others ideas down, more like acknowledge them as not yours and let it go because it doesn't concern you.
The very need "for me to be right and you are wrong' is a form of ego. And no, I am not letting go of God, that's a deceitful attempt to try to get me to let go of what i know is real b/c you have "let go of ego". Really a toxic behavior based in ego. Has nothing to do with a progressive conversation. And if you will, let's keep this out of our speaking.

Can you see the parralels of science and religion? They both try to debase the other and blah blah blah. One truth is that science hasn't developed enough to be able to prove God true or false (the understandings that man have that are not in line w/ the universal mind can and will be proved false) and the Church hasn't developed enough to recognize God's hand in science. More and more, the better science gets the more truth we find in the Bible. Fractal geometry is too perfect and concise to not have a higher mind at work in it. The bible says "as above, so below". Science is recognizing that the smallest patterns that make up an atom are at work in the largest galaxies. Could it be that science and religion are explaining the same thing from different views? Could it be that one's own perception is variable based on beliefs, habits and experiences? Is it possible that when you argue, you are really talking about yourself and your fallacies due to your own perceptions? Science and Faith in their purest forms are contributing and building one another not destroying (if you look at it from another perspective egod people use whatever discipline they're in to destroy anything that doesn't match their view ((this is so the ego can survive)) Looked at like this it doesn't matter whether you're in religion or science, it's just an avenue for the ego to battle and grow. So, if you're in destructive mode no matter what view you take you'll always seek to be destructive If you're in creative mode you will always seek to create regardless of the discipline you're in. To say it plainly; the Christians trying to 'be better' than one another and the scientists trying to 'be smarter' than one another are the same. Also apply that when they try to fight each other.
You had to ask if you been acting arrogant, as in "exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner"? You deem Christians mainly as "immature" children, including yourself, yet you intend to "advance the Christians here" such as you are. Your arrogance is further indicated by your own "testimony" of how their immature faith had annoyed you so, therefore I see no sign of yourself progressing away from your "overbearing manner". You're just as stuck in that cycle as those you deem immature.

Moreover, you intended to claim that your God created all those scientific theories, without yourself to present evidence that would support your claim(other than how your faith "is great and that's the truth"). Which BTW, fractal geometry isn't experimental nor natural science, but rather it's theoretical mathematics. Math is a logic system all on its own, whereas nature OTOH constructs symmetry using prime numbers through biology. But the Christian God isn't about symmetry through prime numbers, when He relies on uniformity/perfection/monotheism. Also, "a spiraling out from the center" is an overgeneralized assumption about the state of the universe itself, when theoretically the universe itself has no end thus no "center", because the big bang could still be an ongoing process. This centrist attitude is thereby just another display of egocentric arrogance.

Negativity within the discipline of scientific rigors means the lack of evidence behind a hypothesis. I'm not accessing my guts feeling whenever I'm engaging myself in scientific rigors, while I'm employing my right brain at navigating the chaos theory.

Everything the scientific rigors had discovered insofar are evidence-based emergence towards decoding the natural laws, I've no interest in mere concept of perfection. In fact, your obsession on perfection is manipulating yourself to proactively claim everything in the glory of your God, while subjecting them all beneath mere "immaturity". In effect, you're "the thief in a room of priests only sees purses", whenever you're behaving in "system justification" mode.

Why is it that your God of peace rewards His people who went and won a war with the "promised land"? On the same notion, can the same Israeli superstition win a "fourth generation warfare"? Which employs psychological operations under the guise of trust-building. BTW, I'm not at war against you, when I've actually revealed what I would do if I intended to deceive you. After all, not only that all war is deception according to The Art of War, lying is in fact sociologically a learned cooperative behavior.

So before I get started, what I'm going to do is I'm going to clarify my goal for you, which is not to teach a game of Gotcha. Liespotters aren't those nitpicky kids, those kids in the back of the room that are shouting, "Gotcha! Gotcha! Your eyebrow twitched. You flared your nostril. I watch that TV show 'Lie To Me.' I know you're lying." No, liespotters are armed with scientific knowledge of how to spot deception. They use it to get to the truth, and they do what mature leaders do everyday; they have difficult conversations with difficult people, sometimes during very difficult times. And they start up that path by accepting a core proposition, and that proposition is the following: Lying is a cooperative act. Think about it, a lie has no power whatsoever by its mere utterance. Its power emerges when someone else agrees to believe the lie.

So I know it may sound like tough love, but look, if at some point you got lied to, it's because you agreed to get lied to. Truth number one about lying: Lying's a cooperative act. Now not all lies are harmful. Sometimes we're willing participants in deception for the sake of social dignity, maybe to keep a secret that should be kept secret, secret. We say, "Nice song." "Honey, you don't look fat in that, no." Or we say, favorite of the digiratti, "You know, I just fished that email out of my spam folder. So sorry."

But there are times when we are unwilling participants in deception. And that can have dramatic costs for us. Last year saw 997 billion dollars in corporate fraud alone in the United States. That's an eyelash under a trillion dollars. That's seven percent of revenues. Deception can cost billions. Think Enron, Madoff, the mortgage crisis. Or in the case of double agents and traitors, like Robert Hanssen or Aldrich Ames, lies can betray our country, they can compromise our security, they can undermine democracy, they can cause the deaths of those that defend us.

Deception is actually serious business. This con man, Henry Oberlander, he was such an effective con man British authorities say he could have undermined the entire banking system of the Western world. And you can't find this guy on Google; you can't find him anywhere. He was interviewed once, and he said the following. He said, "Look, I've got one rule." And this was Henry's rule, he said, "Look, everyone is willing to give you something. They're ready to give you something for whatever it is they're hungry for." And that's the crux of it. If you don't want to be deceived, you have to know, what is it that you're hungry for? And we all kind of hate to admit it. We wish we were better husbands, better wives, smarter, more powerful, taller, richer -- the list goes on. Lying is an attempt to bridge that gap, to connect our wishes and our fantasies about who we wish we were, how we wish we could be, with what we're really like. And boy are we willing to fill in those gaps in our lives with lies.
---- from "Pamela Meyer: How to spot a liar"

No requirement for evidence? Then according to the "Occam's Razor", your claim of your God's greatness without needing evidence can simply be disclaimed without needing evidence.

When your God exists in nature, isn't He subjecting Himself under the same natural laws as we do? Whether you proclaim that He exists in the form of bio-electric pulse, or any other form beyond the naked eyes to see, your God isn't omnipotent when He can't behave beyond nature's limitations.

Science is a method, a tool. My confidence in scientific rigors only goes so far as my own mastery in critical thinking skill, not faith.

Science can't examine what's not in nature, faith-based belief system OTOH just believe in anything without questioning its necessity in reality. Your refusal on letting go of God proves it. Whereas the rest of reality can function without a supernatural and metaphysical deity, you OTOH are so "exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner", you can't let go of a man-made God.
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Merry Christmas Everyone! My wish is that for everyone who accepts it; A gaining mind and heart.


Man, Thank you. I have grown greatly in our speaking.

All your posts are filled with self-indulgent egocentric arrogance. You refuse to see what I write and go with what you think. I steadily said I didn't think those who are faithful are mature and those who aren't are immature.
If your way is better than, why is it that you continually seek to destroy instead of reaching for a common ground to have a conversation? Antisocial. If you could get past your emotions for just a little bit, we might be able to be friends. I'm cool, ya know? If you choose to get stuck on arrogance you can, I'm chillin and growing. Your issue has nothing to do with me.
If you truly held to your ideals of science, why is that you make personal attacks (negativity)? If this was a scientific review and you went on and on about such a little thing as arrogance instead of focusing on the author's work; you would be laughed out of the room.
In truth, this has nothing to do with science. It is a personal grudge you hold with religion. People, you can see it more clearly by learning how to discern people's intent and not get confused by their speech or arguments.
If science is only able to explain nature, how logical is it to try to debunk Spiritual matters with it?
Why do you only choose the points you can ridicule, instead of taking an honest look at the whole thing?
Egocentric means to be centered in the ego. This is a challenge for everyone until you make the glorious leap into the heart center (and no you can't do it by just believing).
Your arguments have no basis in reality, just your mind. If the Torah spelled out the BigBang thousands of years ago, wouldn't that be evidence? Of course, the universe has centers. In this part of the Universe we go around the central sun, in the bigger part we go around another center and so on. Atoms, the same. The centralized theory only has to do with centrics, you added the ego.
If God is in my imagination, then my imagination can tell me that someone's about to do something then they do it. It can give me insight into life that is unreasonably cool. It can love and comfort me. It can teach me techniques that advance my personal practice (I work on Chi Kung, I'll be learning a technique and God will come by and say try it like this, and it works even better!~) It can talk through other people to me about exactly what I am asking about. It can get me a job (I was searching for a job for months, asked God for one and two days later was working, Alleluia).
It can heal me spontaneously. It can give me advice about something I'm doing now, that would harm me months down the road. If that is truly truly my imagination, then I guess I'm omniscient (lol).
If you create a computer program, are you subjected to it's laws? Or just limited to what you can do in the program? God is evident, you just need to gain the eyes to see and the ears to hear. 1 mono is the building block, 3 the Holy Trinity is a prime, 7 the Elohim is prime (Lord does express himself in primes in Spirit and Nature).
Your thoughts on "my obsession" is comical. If you had actually read what I wrote I said we are already perfection. Just being here, being human and growing through each phase is perfect. I am perfect now, even with my flaws. I'm gaining more perfection, not to glorify God (how crazy does that sound) but because I want to. If you look at it, all your points are based from your view point and not how I wrote it.
Your article really shows you. You're adding a deception through faulty science (by the hardest standards of Science, it can't prove or disprove God, so your whole standpoint is moot.) If you want to continue and only focus on emotions we can, if you think you can be mature enough not to sling mud. If anyone else wants to start up a cool conversation on Science, Religion, Energy and Spirituality I'm game. I love building and expanding our consciousness!

Lovlove, till the next
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All this time spent studying something that won't benefit you at all.

Teach the blind how to see.
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In my discipline the highest skill needs only a sentence to teach. In essence, Buddha just schooled me. Thanks dude.

Whether you turn out to be Buddhist, Christian or just choose Spirituality as your path my intent is to advance our collective self into an enlightened state. All that is necessary to yield a result is reflection on the thoughts provided.

To try to put God/AllThatIs in a box is a futile effort. Any faith, school of philosophy, science is trying to figure out what we are doing here and how it all works and how to apply this knowledge to our lives.

Two truths that are opposite in nature can exist and both be true at the same time. This is a Divine Paradox. If you look at a rock from the outside it is one thing, to look at it from the inside is to see it is made up of billions of things. The same is for this world, if you step outside this world it appears as one thing, but inside here we all are, separate entities running around trying to figure this game out.

Rub your hands together very fast! Build up some heat, and hold an imaginary balloon. Push in and let it out (about a .25 inch) more and more gently until you feel a magnetic push or electric feeling. This is your Chi! There are many types of chi, and they are all relative to your state of awareness/skill in directing it. Christians, don't worry you are not leaving God doing this. Keeping the tenant of putting no other god before The Lord keeps you cool. ***Always always check in with yourself or ask God if it's ok to do something, never blindly jump on a bandwagon. One way to do this is to ask your heart if this is in the highest good for yourself. If you get a positive feeling go forth, if a holding or negative feeling think about the consequences. (another way is to tune into the white light behind the solar plexus, great source of knowledge) This is a separate thing from taking leaps of faith.****

As you're reading the word Now. The Holy Spirit touched all of you. Some of you felt your mind stop or a gap in the stream of thoughts. Some of you felt it as a Light hitting your head. Whether you recognize it or not is up to you. For many, this will be a direct experience that leads to many more. My suggestion is to ask for more and sit with the light as much as you can. Just send thankful feelings back that's what God likes most. The Holy Spirit will lead you as you need it.
All I can do is lead a horse to water, I can't make it drink.
Of course some of you will flame on here that it didn't work to advance your own agenda regardless if you felt it or not. If you feel it you know it and that's enough.

Ah, one of the main enemies is to not to be present. This is the mind wandering the past is gone and the future isn't here so just enjoy the present (I dig how the old turtle said it in Kung Fu Panda "now is a gift that's why they call it the present")
I'm gonna leave it here for now, and work on a practical guide to unlock the universe.
Lovlove
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