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Posted 5/26/09

Yei wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:


Yei wrote:


drizza wrote:

Well I am not a Christian but if one repeats a sin over and over and repents but doesnt learn from his mistake then I dont think that sin will go away. I cant just go kill a man pray for forgiveness and do the same, no it doesnt work that way. I think this is what digs is saying and there are times where people have to sin, only through sins will we truely learn from our mistakes. Your right in your last paragraph if this world was just goody goody it would be boring and there would be no point in life. Through bad times is when human beings rise and come out strong. We come together, form new ideas in order to stop whatever horrible times we are going through. Heroes also emerge from this as well. As far as heaven and hell shit I rather live in a perfect world then repeatedly get burn by fire.


But the priest didn't molest anyone after his confession (I hope), so is he forgiven?


I guess it comes down to if he truly repented for what he did. If he just said "oh yeah im sorry it wont happen again, blah blah blah" but didnt mean any of it, then i'd assume he's not forgiven, but if he truly meant it then i'd assume he'd be forgiven for it ? Throw something like that in there and that loophole of being able to sin as much as you want disapears. But from what i've heard he's not the only priest to do something like that.


Yeah, 10% of the priests at the Catholic Church do that. I just watched a documentary about it, the Catholic Church spends billions protecting all their pedophiles and lets them do whatever they want.


Heh, and lots of people still believe in the teachings of the catholic church rofl. Wonder if the pope is a pedofile too ? Probally is.



He went to jail for 7 years, so he's done the legal punishment. Now he seems like he's sorry for what he did and probably won't do it again, so I guess he would be forgiven. Even though he raped and molested hundreds of children, boys and girls, even babies, and destroyed their lives and their family's lives. He used the trust they had in God and the Church to get to their children. Being forgiven so easily after all that seems unjust. Would Hitler be forgiven if he truly repented?



Hell according to what I've heard Hitler would be forgiven lol. Thats rather amusing actually. Heh, make you hate god to go to heaven and see hitler there.
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Posted 5/26/09

drizza wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:


drizza wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:


Yei wrote:

So anyone who doesn't follow Christianity goes to hell? That can't be right, I'm sure the more rational Christians (and Muslims) don't believe that. And yeah, the repenting thing is messed up, I watched a documentary about a priest in the Catholic Church who raped and molested hundreds of children, including babies as young as 9-months, and in the movie he confesses everything openly and then he's forgiven just like that.


Yeap, and then he can do it again and again, repent aand be forgiven as many times as he wants rofl. If I tried that however I'd go straight to hell lol. You know any god that can forgive a priest (a holy person who repersents god) that molested little kids just like that, is either an idiot or far too soft, any reasonable god would smite those people who screw up his/hers/it's image.


It doesn't make much sense and sounds obviously made up, but it's a nice idea. I guess people want to believe it because the world would be much too depressing if we didn't think there would eventually be perfect justice, and there's nothing wrong with that IMO.


Well if heaven truly did exist, and lets say it is truly perfect as the christains say it is, it would be utterly boring. If nothing ever goes wrong, nothing interesting ever happens, and thus it'd be utterly boring, if i was stuck in such a place, I'd hate it. Conflicts, fights, disagreements, and all that stuff make this world interesting and fun, you take that away, and it'd be utterly boring all the time. Perfection would suck.


Well I am not a Christian but if one repeats a sin over and over and repents but doesnt learn from his mistake then I dont think that sin will go away. I cant just go kill a man pray for forgiveness and do the same, no it doesnt work that way. I think this is what digs is saying and there are times where people have to sin, only through sins will we truely learn from our mistakes. Your right in your last paragraph if this world was just goody goody it would be boring and there would be no point in life. Through bad times is when human beings rise and come out strong. We come together, form new ideas in order to stop whatever horrible times we are going through. Heroes also emerge from this as well. As far as heaven and hell shit I rather live in a perfect world then repeatedly get burn by fire.


Yeah, but being repeatedly burnt by fire isn't eternal boredom, hell after a while you'd get used to the sensation of being burnt by fire, and it'd stop bothering you completely. Being burnt by fire for a while would be more entertaining then suffering eternal boredom. But i guess after the fire stops bothering you, you'd suffer eternal boredom anyway, so looks like heaven or hell you suffer eternal boredom.


I dont think there is any pain so extreme and bearable you get use to it. Look at torture you think if they got use to it they wouldnt mind it anymore? In hell it is said as you burn your skin regrows and you get burned again and again. Like I said I rather live in heaven where is peacefull rather then in hell or believe there is nothingness. I dont really care if people dont believe in heaven/hell thats their opinion and I am not the person who shoves religion down anyones throat.


Now how can you trust what people say hell is like ? Since nobody has even been there and come back to tell us what it's like we have no way what-so-ever to truly know what it's like, hell the devil could be a hot female demon and her other demon minions could also be really hot, no way of knowing. It'd be awesome if it was like that tho.


But after constantly <---- keyword, being burnt by fire, you'd become adjusted to the pain, because your constantly feeling it, so after a while it'd become less noticable then you'd pretty much stop feeling it all together. So it wouldnt be so bad.
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Posted 5/26/09 , edited 5/26/09
Ok well you can test that theory by repeatedly burning yourself and see if you get used to it I'd rather not. Like I said you can believe whatever you want my goal is not to shove religion down your throat or convert you. I dont know what hell is like this is just what I read. From what I read I dont want to be burned for years thinking I will get used to it. The special thing about humans is God gave us the ability to obey or disobey him. We arent forced to worship him thats why we are able to think otherwise when it comes to religion. Life is a test though if you do good you go to heaven you do bad you go to hell. I am not God so I dont know how he will judge and since you dont believe in God there is no heaven and hell for you and thats no problem because like I said we are free to believe whatever we want.
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Posted 5/26/09

drizza wrote:

Ok well you can test that theory by repeatedly burning yourself and see if you get used to it I'd rather not. Like I said you can believe whatever you want my goal is not to shove religion down your throat or convert you. I dont know what hell is like this is just what I read. From what I read I dont want to be burned for years thinking I will get used to it. The special thing about humans is God gave us the ability to obey or disobey him. We arent forced to worship him thats why we are able to think otherwise when it comes to religion. Life is a test though if you do good you go to heaven you do bad you go to hell. I am not God so I dont know how he will judge and since you dont believe in God there is no heaven and hell for you and thats no problem because like I said we are free to believe whatever we want.


According to Islam, do you have to turn Muslim to go to heaven?
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Posted 5/26/09 , edited 5/26/09

Yei wrote:


drizza wrote:

Ok well you can test that theory by repeatedly burning yourself and see if you get used to it I'd rather not. Like I said you can believe whatever you want my goal is not to shove religion down your throat or convert you. I dont know what hell is like this is just what I read. From what I read I dont want to be burned for years thinking I will get used to it. The special thing about humans is God gave us the ability to obey or disobey him. We arent forced to worship him thats why we are able to think otherwise when it comes to religion. Life is a test though if you do good you go to heaven you do bad you go to hell. I am not God so I dont know how he will judge and since you dont believe in God there is no heaven and hell for you and thats no problem because like I said we are free to believe whatever we want.


According to Islam, do you have to turn Muslim to go to heaven?


Ah ok here is a direct quote from the Quran about what we think about all religions.

4:124 If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.

2:62. Those who believe (in the Qur’an)
And those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures)
And the Christians and the Sabians, -
ANY who believe in G-d
And the Last Day,
And work righteousness,
Shall have their reward
With their Lord: on them
Shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Here the Qur’an specifically names Muslims, Christians, Jews, Sabians and even uses ANY to include all of humanity that fit the criteria of working righteousness to receive rewards from God. What you will find in the Qur’an is that evil doers regardless of religion, nationality, race or sex will receive punishment from God and righteous doers, regardless of race, nationality, religion or sex will receive abundant rewards from God.

Here some more quotes about Gods forgiveness

3:135 And those who, having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls, earnestly bring God to mind, and ask for forgiveness for their sins,- and who can forgive sins except God.- and are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done.

3:129 To God belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth and punisheth whom He pleaseth; but God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

2:268 The Evil one threatens you with poverty and bids you to conduct unseemly. God promiseth you His forgiveness and bounties. And God careth for all and He knoweth all things.

Islam if practiced right is opened minded to all religions but I believe this to be the same for many other religions. Just human beings get so caught up in their religion they believe everyone should become it which I disagree with. Please do not take these quotes as me trying to convert it is just answering your question.
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Posted 5/26/09

drizza wrote:

Ah ok here is a direct quote from the Quran about what we think about all religions.

4:124 If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.

2:62. Those who believe (in the Qur’an)
And those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures)
And the Christians and the Sabians, -
ANY who believe in G-d
And the Last Day,
And work righteousness,
Shall have their reward
With their Lord: on them
Shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Here the Qur’an specifically names Muslims, Christians, Jews, Sabians and even uses ANY to include all of humanity that fit the criteria of working righteousness to receive rewards from God. What you will find in the Qur’an is that evil doers regardless of religion, nationality, race or sex will receive punishment from God and righteous doers, regardless of race, nationality, religion or sex will receive abundant rewards from God.

Here some more quotes about Gods forgiveness

3:135 And those who, having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls, earnestly bring God to mind, and ask for forgiveness for their sins,- and who can forgive sins except God.- and are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done.

3:129 To God belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth and punisheth whom He pleaseth; but God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

2:268 The Evil one threatens you with poverty and bids you to conduct unseemly. God promiseth you His forgiveness and bounties. And God careth for all and He knoweth all things.

Islam if practiced right is opened minded to all religions but I believe this to be the same for many other religions. Just human beings get so caught up in their religion they believe everyone should become it which I disagree with. Please do take these quotes as me trying to convert it is just answering your question.


Great, then that confirms my idea that your religion doesn't matter. Hindus, atheists, agnostic, all will be rewarded as long as they are good people, right? So there's no need worry too much about your religion or what stories you believe in, the only thing that really matters is your actions and morality. Right?
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Posted 5/26/09
Yes that pretty much sums it up in Islam and probably other religions as well. This is why on many of these christian threads you dont see many muslims jumping on here attacking other religions or Aetheists we aren't suppose to do that. If those who do it then they are not obeying the religion correctly. We are suppose to respect all religious books rather it be the Bible, Torah etc. As long as your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds you will go to heaven, well at least thats what I was taught. You know what also makes this world interesting is the differences with cultures and exploring different religions. I mean if we was all the same this would be a boring world. Different view points brings new ideas to the table this is why we cant have such a close minded view on religion/races.
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Posted 5/26/09

drizza wrote:

Yes that pretty much sums it up in Islam and probably other religions as well. This is why on many of these christian threads you dont see many muslims jumping on here attacking other religions or Aetheists we aren't suppose to do that. If those who do it then they are not obeying the religion correctly. We are suppose to respect all religious books rather it be the Bible, Torah etc. As long as your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds you will go to heaven, well at least thats what I was taught. You know what also makes this world interesting is the differences with cultures and exploring different religions. I mean if we was all the same this would be a boring world. Different view points brings new ideas to the table this is why we cant have such a close minded view on religion/races.


But it sure doesn't sound like that's the case when the Quran says all those bad things about infidels. And the majority of Muslims I know don't seem to have that view at all.
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Posted 5/26/09 , edited 5/26/09

Yei wrote:


drizza wrote:

Yes that pretty much sums it up in Islam and probably other religions as well. This is why on many of these christian threads you dont see many muslims jumping on here attacking other religions or Aetheists we aren't suppose to do that. If those who do it then they are not obeying the religion correctly. We are suppose to respect all religious books rather it be the Bible, Torah etc. As long as your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds you will go to heaven, well at least thats what I was taught. You know what also makes this world interesting is the differences with cultures and exploring different religions. I mean if we was all the same this would be a boring world. Different view points brings new ideas to the table this is why we cant have such a close minded view on religion/races.


But it sure doesn't sound like that's the case when the Quran says all those bad things about infidels. And the majority of Muslims I know don't seem to have that view at all.


The majority I know do so hey to each is own. Not every muslim is perfect I know this nor any person on this world. You will never find a religion where everyone practices it perfectly. I would be the first one to tell you that I seen some bad muslims I been to the middle east some of them having sex, drugs, homosexuality etc like everyone else who belongs to a religion. Hell I am faaaaaaar from the perfect muslim nor do I try to be the spokeperson for my religion. We are humans so we tend to do what we want ignoring what is being told to us. I have heard all the misquotes in the Quran daily and I seen them put into place. People even try to misquote the bible sometimes to distort its meaning it is a tactic used to smear people or to make something unattractive.
Posted 5/26/09 , edited 5/26/09

drizza wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:


Yei wrote:

So anyone who doesn't follow Christianity goes to hell? That can't be right, I'm sure the more rational Christians (and Muslims) don't believe that. And yeah, the repenting thing is messed up, I watched a documentary about a priest in the Catholic Church who raped and molested hundreds of children, including babies as young as 9-months, and in the movie he confesses everything openly and then he's forgiven just like that.


Yeap, and then he can do it again and again, repent aand be forgiven as many times as he wants rofl. If I tried that however I'd go straight to hell lol. You know any god that can forgive a priest (a holy person who repersents god) that molested little kids just like that, is either an idiot or far too soft, any reasonable god would smite those people who screw up his/hers/it's image.


It doesn't make much sense and sounds obviously made up, but it's a nice idea. I guess people want to believe it because the world would be much too depressing if we didn't think there would eventually be perfect justice, and there's nothing wrong with that IMO.


Well if heaven truly did exist, and lets say it is truly perfect as the christains say it is, it would be utterly boring. If nothing ever goes wrong, nothing interesting ever happens, and thus it'd be utterly boring, if i was stuck in such a place, I'd hate it. Conflicts, fights, disagreements, and all that stuff make this world interesting and fun, you take that away, and it'd be utterly boring all the time. Perfection would suck.


Well I am not a Christian but if one repeats a sin over and over and repents but doesnt learn from his mistake then I dont think that sin will go away. I cant just go kill a man pray for forgiveness and do the same, no it doesnt work that way. I think this is what digs is saying and there are times where people have to sin, only through sins will we truely learn from our mistakes. Your right in your last paragraph if this world was just goody goody it would be boring and there would be no point in life. Through bad times is when human beings rise and come out strong. We come together, form new ideas in order to stop whatever horrible times we are going through. Heroes also emerge from this as well. As far as heaven and hell shit I rather live in a perfect world then repeatedly get burn by fire.



Well I am not a Christian but if one repeats a sin over and over and repents but doesnt learn from his mistake then I dont think that sin will go away.


You're right. At least, that's what I've been taught.
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Posted 5/27/09

crunchypibb wrote:


blancer wrote:


crunchypibb wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:

The Catholics believe that between death and heaven there is a place of temporary chastisement for Christians. It is called purgatory, and in purgatory Christians will be punished according to their sin. This is not a popular view outside of Catholicism, but it is one possible answer to some of your questions. Personally, I don’t believe this.



-Regarding Purgatory, that's kinda false.
-We sin on earth but our sins are paid for, the afterlife consequences that is, by Jesus when we confess and offer them up to him. Heaven is a place for the sinless, so it's usually near impossible to go there straight from earth. That's what purgatory is for. There are some evidences in the bible where it seems to be descibing hell, but rather it turns out to be purgatory. Because our God is a loving God purgatory is a place to finish paying or confessing for our sins so we don't go to hell. It's not a pretty place but from what I've heard it's not a place of punishment, it burns but it's not a place for damnation like hell is. But as soon as all the sins are forgiven, those people go straight to heaven.
-When Jesus paid for our sins that didn't mean the world would stop sinning, it meant the world had a chance to erase those sins from their records. It's like when the police scrap your criminal records, that's how it works. And on the subject the people on earth who have the power to fogive those sins, to erase the records so to say, are those who have passed down the Holy Spirit. That is popes, bishops, cardinals, priest, and etc. The only people who recieved such powers were those in the Upper Room who recieved the Holy Spirit. They are who we get those powers from. So a local pastor from any other denomination, or no denomination, sadly can't do it the way they intend to do so unless they had apostolic succession like the Catholics or Eastern Othodox.


Actually, the pope said there is no purgatory, so every christian (catholic) who believes in purgatory is, by the popes law, wrong. it is one of those statements that only pope can issue and they become the law for everybody, I forgot how they call those. As of 2004 or 2005 (forgot when), there is only heaven and hell (for catholic christians. I dont know and dont care about all those other sects that thrive outside good old Europe).


-It's called a dogma and it can't be re-amended. Although not everything that comes from the catholic church is a dogma (like holding hands during the Our Father, I remember there was a weird dispute about that before), but I'm pretty sure that the evidence of purgatory is true. Think about it, only the sinless can enter heaven, since it's a place with no sin, and just about everyone who dies has a little sin in them. Therefore they would go to hell regardless of their love for God. But God is merciful therefore it wouldn't make sense. But I'd be happy to see where you saw that.
-Btw, don't believe everything everyone says, and I'm not just saying that about the internet. i mean everything. There's even an arguement made by a Greek philosopher (too lazy to look up and to dumb to remember exactly who it was between Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle) who can make justice, or law-abbiding citizens, look whimpy and injustice people look admirable.

btw
Link to where you saw that pl0z
k thanx


Hmm, I saw it on TV, and read it in a paper. Here is the link to some articles I found. Oh, it seems that I was wrong: it was limbo, not purgatory.

http://www.ucg.org/commentary/abandons.htm

oh, and try Vatican pages, im sure everything explained there. Sorry for incorrect data.
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Posted 5/27/09

Yei wrote:

So anyone who doesn't follow Christianity goes to hell? That can't be right, I'm sure the more rational Christians (and Muslims) don't believe that.


Some sects of Christianity believe in something called Limbo, which is where the not-so-evil people get sent, i.e non-Christians who weren't terrible people. It's basically a place of eternal boredom, you don't have to suffer the torture of hell but you don't get to experience the bliss of heaven, your soul just exits in a desolate place. Its not based on the Bible though, so I don't know where they got that idea from.

But for the most part anyone who isn't Christian is committing a huge sin by not accepting Jesus as their savior, so they go to hell. I think there was something in the Bible about that, but I'm not sure.
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Posted 5/27/09

blancer wrote:


crunchypibb wrote:


blancer wrote:


crunchypibb wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:

The Catholics believe that between death and heaven there is a place of temporary chastisement for Christians. It is called purgatory, and in purgatory Christians will be punished according to their sin. This is not a popular view outside of Catholicism, but it is one possible answer to some of your questions. Personally, I don’t believe this.



-Regarding Purgatory, that's kinda false.
-We sin on earth but our sins are paid for, the afterlife consequences that is, by Jesus when we confess and offer them up to him. Heaven is a place for the sinless, so it's usually near impossible to go there straight from earth. That's what purgatory is for. There are some evidences in the bible where it seems to be descibing hell, but rather it turns out to be purgatory. Because our God is a loving God purgatory is a place to finish paying or confessing for our sins so we don't go to hell. It's not a pretty place but from what I've heard it's not a place of punishment, it burns but it's not a place for damnation like hell is. But as soon as all the sins are forgiven, those people go straight to heaven.
-When Jesus paid for our sins that didn't mean the world would stop sinning, it meant the world had a chance to erase those sins from their records. It's like when the police scrap your criminal records, that's how it works. And on the subject the people on earth who have the power to fogive those sins, to erase the records so to say, are those who have passed down the Holy Spirit. That is popes, bishops, cardinals, priest, and etc. The only people who recieved such powers were those in the Upper Room who recieved the Holy Spirit. They are who we get those powers from. So a local pastor from any other denomination, or no denomination, sadly can't do it the way they intend to do so unless they had apostolic succession like the Catholics or Eastern Othodox.


Actually, the pope said there is no purgatory, so every christian (catholic) who believes in purgatory is, by the popes law, wrong. it is one of those statements that only pope can issue and they become the law for everybody, I forgot how they call those. As of 2004 or 2005 (forgot when), there is only heaven and hell (for catholic christians. I dont know and dont care about all those other sects that thrive outside good old Europe).


-It's called a dogma and it can't be re-amended. Although not everything that comes from the catholic church is a dogma (like holding hands during the Our Father, I remember there was a weird dispute about that before), but I'm pretty sure that the evidence of purgatory is true. Think about it, only the sinless can enter heaven, since it's a place with no sin, and just about everyone who dies has a little sin in them. Therefore they would go to hell regardless of their love for God. But God is merciful therefore it wouldn't make sense. But I'd be happy to see where you saw that.
-Btw, don't believe everything everyone says, and I'm not just saying that about the internet. i mean everything. There's even an arguement made by a Greek philosopher (too lazy to look up and to dumb to remember exactly who it was between Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle) who can make justice, or law-abbiding citizens, look whimpy and injustice people look admirable.

btw
Link to where you saw that pl0z
k thanx


Hmm, I saw it on TV, and read it in a paper. Here is the link to some articles I found. Oh, it seems that I was wrong: it was limbo, not purgatory.

http://www.ucg.org/commentary/abandons.htm

oh, and try Vatican pages, im sure everything explained there. Sorry for incorrect data.


Now that I can believe, limbo was poorly supported in terms of biblical text and early Church teachings. But I don't think purgatory is next on the chopping board. It's already a dogma so the Church can't change anything about that subject since dogmas are always permanent.
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Posted 5/29/09
all hail jediism...the force be with you...
Posted 5/29/09
Icky. Too much reading -____-
Who seriously wants to read all that??
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